From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V13 #451 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Wednesday, April 9 2008 Volume 13 : Number 451 To unsubscribe: e-mail ecto-digest-request@smoe.org and put the word unsubscribe in the message body. Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: goddess voting? [morayati@email.unc.edu] My pantheon, for what it's worth [morayati@email.unc.edu] Re: goddess voting? ["Richard Messum" ] Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... [Timothy Jones-Yelvington ] Re: Goddess lists [neal copperman ] Re: Goddess lists [morayati@email.unc.edu] Re: Goddess lists [Michael Curry ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 17:45:31 -0400 From: morayati@email.unc.edu Subject: Re: goddess voting? Younger ectophile speaking, and I definitely explore backwards. (Speaking of Vickie, I haven't seen her post in forever...) I also 100% agree with your previous post (well, except for the been-on-ecto-for-a-decade part, obviously). - -Sarah Quoting Karen Hester : > That sounds fun, as long as it's non-binding :) > Did you mean vote for what we think the ecto Goddesses should be, or > vote for our favorite ecto-ish goddesses? I'd pick some different > people - more influential/central to represent ecto in the first > instance, and stuff-what-I-like in the second. > > It would interesting to see what our musical tastes really are. Do > people tend to stick to a few genres, or are we usually wide in our > tastes? There must be many ectophiles who have no favorites in > common. Though Kate should definitely stay a Goddess since she > influenced Happy, and Jane Siberry/Issa was prominent in ecto up to > 'Maria', I wonder if younger ectophiles explore backwards. > > I think that Happy should be left out of voting, because it's her > list, our use of 'ecto' is quoting her, and I like a happy Vickie. > Plus I want 10 votes. > > Remember ten/fifteen years ago on Usenet and mailing lists, boring > poll upon boring poll - what is your favorite song, omg me too! How > old are you? What other artists do you like? What is your star sign? > And then I'd leave the list in horror. Thanks for the off-list > offer, Jason :) > K ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 18:03:56 -0400 From: morayati@email.unc.edu Subject: My pantheon, for what it's worth I don't really feel the need to make this a secret. These are subject to change at any time (by "at any time", I mean "on the occasion that I buy an album that absolutely blows me away") Keep in mind, also, that I'm not familiar enough with Veda Hille and Jane Siberry to have an opinion on them (in other words, my leaving them off the list isn't meant to be a slight). I'm also limiting them to "ecto artists" in the broadest sense - i.e. no matter how much I adore, say, Massive Attack, they're not on here. They're listed alphabetically. - -- Happy Rhodes - Come on, it's Happy Rhodes! I don't think I need to explain. Kate Bush - See entry for Happy. Kristin Hersh - Quality, longevity, and influence in spades. Plenty of variety between Throwing Muses, 50 Foot Wave, and her solo work. I'm pleased to see so much consensus for her. (And if you haven't already, please check out the songs she's posted from her upcoming album Speedbath - they may just be the best she's ever written.) Sarah McLachlan - I know she has her detractors but I'm not one of them. She's more mainstream than some of the other goddesses but she's made quality music, and Lilith Fair was huge. (I should probably disclose that I really liked Surfacing - but then, I love Fumbling too, so.) Stina Nordenstam - Stina is a genius. Period. She has over a decade's worth of longevity, and, I'd argue, has as much musical variety as anyone in the pantheon. The Memories of a Color/And She Closed Her Eyes era is completely different from the Dynamite/People Are Strange era, which is completely different from This Is and The World Is Saved (and I'm still not sure those aren't two separate eras. We'll find out when she releases her new album which I've been anticipating for what seems like forever.) As for influence, a *lot* of people, at least, have covered her or said they were fans. If I can keep gushing, The World Is Saved is one of the most underrated albums ever. The arrangements are wonderful (check out the bridge of "Butterfly", or that beautiful part in "The Morning Belongs To The Night" with the melting strings which I still have to close my eyes whenever I hear), and the songwriting is solid. Tori Amos - See entries for Happy and Kate. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 19:15:46 -0400 From: "Richard Messum" Subject: Re: goddess voting? Mine: Happy Rhodes (goes without saying) and then, in no particular order Tori Amos Kate Rusby Maddy Prior Kate Bush Fiona Apple Joni Mitchell Lisa Gerrard Liz Fraser Richard - ----- Original Message ----- From: Leonora Christina Skov To: gordodo@optonline.net ; ecto@smoe.org Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 5:16 PM Subject: RE: goddess voting? Well, I think a hidden ballot is a great idea. In case the rest of the list decides to vote here are my goddesses: Tori Amos Feist Kate Bush PJ Harvey Sarah McLachlan Cat Power Fiona Apple Joni Mitchell Regina Spektor Lisa Germano Best, Leonora "After a certain age you get the face you deserve" (Joan Collins) Forfatter, mag.art. Leonora Christina Skov H.C. Xrsteds Vej 35, 3.tv., 1879 Frb. C. Tlf 38 19 03 81 / 26 85 67 27 www.leonorachristinaskov.blogspot.com > Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 14:20:30 +0000> From: gordodo@optonline.net> > Subject: goddess voting?> To: ecto@smoe.org> > how about we run a hidden ballot for ecto goddesses? i will happily compile the results in the background as to not start any flame wars so please email me directly :)i'd propose that each person gets 50 points and can nominate up to 10 artists (and you can allocate the points against the artists you nominate with a maximum of 20 points to any one artist)i will then tally up the results (both by total points and total numbers of mentions) and see if there is a consensus area on the Venn diagram of ecto taste?is two weeks sufficient to allow people time to respond? any changes to the proposal?-jasonnp ChungKing-The Hungry Years _________________________________________________________________ Gratis smilyes, spil og aktiviteter til din Messenger http://www2.messengerplayground.dk/?cmp=text_forside - -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.9/1365 - Release Date: 4/8/2008 7:30 AM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 18:39:02 -0500 From: Timothy Jones-Yelvington Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... I ultimately agree with you both. It's still fun to play in the sandbox. On 4/8/08 6:04 PM, "Bill Mazur" wrote: > Thank you Greg! I have been reading this thread and wanted to say something. > You said it much more succinctly than I would have: > > "But then again, I'm opposed to the notion of deity, and all the more so of > deification. I'll take my artists human, thanks..." > > I agree with that statement 100% - The only other thing I might add is that > I feel like the artists themselves wouldn't necessarily feel comfortable > with being deified either. > > I realize that this concept of "goddesses" is a way of showing great respect > to the artists we all love. So I don't want to sound critical here. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ecto@smoe.org [mailto:owner-ecto@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Greg > Bossert > Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 3:16 PM > To: ecto [place] > Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if > no one else... > > On Apr 8, 2008, at 2:27 PM, Karen Hester wrote: >> I don't think 'Beautiful and Fierce' applies to Sarah - very very >> pretty, and as fierce as a puppy in a tissue paper advert. But she >> can be a Goddess for services rendered to women in music. > > ah, but that's a post-Lilith, post-Surfacing viewpoint. when > Fumbling Towards Ecstasy first came out, and Sarah was still cranking > her guitar through a little Crate amp, she seemed, to me at least, > exactly beautiful and fierce. > > artists drift about, and ecto has drifted about. > > but then again, i'm opposed to the notion of deity, and all the more > so of deification. i'll take my artists human, thanks... > > 'tah > -g > > -- i have never been afraid to change > -- the circumstances of the world > -- Happy Rhodes ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 18:35:53 -0500 From: Timothy Jones-Yelvington Subject: Re: Vickie (was goddess voting?) I believe she actually said she was taking a break after that somewhat emotional conversation that took place about people leaving Happy off their year-end lists. Everything got patched up quickly and it ultimately wasn't that big a deal, but I still haven't seen her post since. I hope everything's okay. tim On 4/8/08 4:45 PM, "morayati@email.unc.edu" wrote: > Younger ectophile speaking, and I definitely explore backwards. > (Speaking of Vickie, I haven't seen her post in forever...) > > I also 100% agree with your previous post (well, except for the > been-on-ecto-for-a-decade part, obviously). > > -Sarah > > Quoting Karen Hester : > >> That sounds fun, as long as it's non-binding :) >> Did you mean vote for what we think the ecto Goddesses should be, or >> vote for our favorite ecto-ish goddesses? I'd pick some different >> people - more influential/central to represent ecto in the first >> instance, and stuff-what-I-like in the second. >> >> It would interesting to see what our musical tastes really are. Do >> people tend to stick to a few genres, or are we usually wide in our >> tastes? There must be many ectophiles who have no favorites in >> common. Though Kate should definitely stay a Goddess since she >> influenced Happy, and Jane Siberry/Issa was prominent in ecto up to >> 'Maria', I wonder if younger ectophiles explore backwards. >> >> I think that Happy should be left out of voting, because it's her >> list, our use of 'ecto' is quoting her, and I like a happy Vickie. >> Plus I want 10 votes. >> >> Remember ten/fifteen years ago on Usenet and mailing lists, boring >> poll upon boring poll - what is your favorite song, omg me too! How >> old are you? What other artists do you like? What is your star sign? >> And then I'd leave the list in horror. Thanks for the off-list >> offer, Jason :) >> K ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 18:38:02 -0500 From: Timothy Jones-Yelvington Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... I think sometimes Diamanda is deliberately ugly. Which I think is beautiful. On 4/8/08 5:39 PM, "Aly Fields" wrote: > Yes, but what is beautiful and fierce meant to be anyway? What about > Diamanda Galas? > > On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 6:12 PM, neal copperman wrote: > >> At 5:27 PM -0400 4/8/08, Karen Hester wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:56 PM, neal copperman wrote: >>> >>>> See, I'm not sure I agree with that. (As if we are all going to >>>> agree >>>> anyway!) >>>> >>> >>> I've decided that I agree with you, rather than with myself :) >>> >> >> Let me try to win you back to your side! :) >> >> I worry that the core is a somewhat historical group, representing the >>> tastes of those of us who came into our music infatuation during the >>> 80s/early 90s, but perhaps that's best - non-interventionist Goddesses >>> can't embarrass themselves with bad new albums! >>> >> >> I've kind of wondered about that too. Clearly there are artists working >> in those styles. Are they having as strong an impact on people today as >> those albums had on many of us in the 80's and 90's? >> >> One possible explanation is that the core artists were kind of forging a >> new sound/style that opened up how people listened. There are people that >> continue to do that, but it all sounds really different then how the ecto >> folk did it. And their fans are spinning off in their own directions. >> >> I don't think 'Beautiful and Fierce' applies to Sarah - very very >>> pretty, and as fierce as a puppy in a tissue paper advert. But she >>> can be a Goddess for services rendered to women in music. >>> >> >> I actually meant that was the place to point people to for suggestions on >> artists like PJ Harvey and Kristin Hersh. >> >> neal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 19:01:24 -0500 From: Timothy Jones-Yelvington Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... I think that the other artists' support of Noe is more conscious than you're giving them credit for. My experience of Noe (and maybe I'm exaggerating this, but I don't think I am) is that she more deliberately relates to other complex women artists, both as influences/models and as contemporaries than do a lot of other artists. She's gone out of her way to seek out and pay respect to "foremothers" (for lack of a less irritating word). Those of us who were at Ectofest 07 heard her talk about discovering Happy and flying across the country for a house concert at Meredith's. She did not go alone, but brought Reba Hasko (another completely incredible artist) with her in order to introduce her to Happy's music. At the time, I think she actually said something about the importance of valuing other "beautiful and complex" musicians outside the mainstream. I wish I knew her exact statement. She has mentioned Issa is interviews as a model for the kind of career she would like to have (I've no doubt that Issa has read this and that I played some role in generating her interest in Noe's spiritual path). When I met Emily Bezar in Berkely last August, she brought me a copy of "The Summer Storm Journals" as a gift, which I also think says something about the respect paid to her by other musicians. I really think of her as a beautiful connector and community-builder. I also think it's worth mentioning that her technical skills by themselves are far from flawless. Her voice is thinnish without amplification and her guitar and piano playing not especially virtuosic. The fact that she pushes herself to create art that is always inspired and is as jaw-dropping and complex as hers says a lot about what sets her apart. Kay. Off the soapbox now. tim On 4/8/08 3:24 PM, "Karen Hester" wrote: >> From: "Paul Blair" >> When you have one ecto goddess and two other ecto divinities show up at your >> show, not because any of them is on the bill to play later, but just to >> listen to the music, I think it says something to stature and impact. And >> Noe has 6 albums going back to 1996, so it's not as if she's some flash in >> the pan. > > Ha, methinks the Northeasterners (myself included) are somewhat > feverish about Noe. No one (including Neal) said Noe wasn't very > talented. But Issa came because she shared a drummer (still, great > compliment), and Vienna and Alex came because they're part of the > Brooklyn music mafia, and such people attend one another's shows. > > As to Noe's six albums, I bet you've only got the most recent two :) > I classify the first three as juvenilia: she was still finding her > voice, and the great songs only begin to appear on album four (Boots, > which is still patchy). I haven't heard her play anything pre-Boots, > and she has let the first album go out of print. > > We could come up with a "Potential Goddesses (to keep our eyes on)" > list so that newcomers can discover new artists rather than go 'duh, > Tori.' It might be a bit pointless to extend the Goddess list to > include people like Bjork (oooh, qualifies completely), Joni, Ani - > they don't need discovering. > > K. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 19:04:57 -0500 From: Timothy Jones-Yelvington Subject: Re: Jane/not Issa (was: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else...) For what it's worth, I was never able to see Jane as Jane, but have now seen her twice as Issa, and find her to be as inspired as ever (I hope we'll soon see more than a two song recording out of her). All of the new life-path stuff sounds completely crazy on paper, but when you hear her talk about it in person, it becomes much more clear. She definitely operates on a different wavelength than most of humanity, but within that wavelength she's completely lucid. tim On 4/8/08 5:06 PM, "morayati@email.unc.edu" wrote: > Forgive me, but I've wondered this for a while now - what's the whole > Jane/not Issa thing about? I know about the name change, but I've > noticed a bit of...well, for the lack of a better word, animosity. > > -Sarah > > Quoting Karen Hester : > >> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:56 PM, neal copperman wrote: >>> See, I'm not sure I agree with that. (As if we are all going to agree >>> anyway!) >> >> I've decided that I agree with you, rather than with myself :) >> >> Usually I define ecto by its core (Happy, Kate, Tori, Jane (not Issa), >> in that order), and that flows outwards, becoming less ecto but still >> acceptable, just because we share various other tastes. Wot you said. >> >> Sometimes I define it by 'what we like in common', or 'what we discuss >> the most', which is often less ecto in the former sense. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 17:37:23 -0700 From: Neile Graham Subject: Goddess lists One thing you all can do is to send your personal goddess list to ectoguide@zipcon.com to be placed on the bio link to your EctoGuide comments--that way, when someone looks there they can put your comments in context. Feel free to send it in the midst of any bio information you want up there, too. All very welcome and easy for us to do. At the time the Goddess list was created, there was a kind of consensus--at least no one complained fervently--when the list in the Guide appeared at the end of our first discussions of goddesshood. One or two people indicated surprise at Veda's inclusion, while I personally wasn't thrilled about Sarah's. The subject pops up again every few years. Years later now I would say that Tori has produced nearly as many less-interesting albums as she has mind-blowing ones, and I'm grateful that _Aerial_ is so damn good because Kate was quiet for so many years after the very uneven _The Red Shoes_. Jane is now Issa, who doesn't particularly draw me, though I loved Jane's albums from the first through _Maria_. I personally would put Kristin and PJ there. I agree that Noe has produced two astonishingly great albums. Hmm...maybe instead of goddesses, we should be talking albums. The album that started me down the ecto road was Marianne Faithful's _Broken English_, which hasn't aged a bit for me. From there people knew to give me Kate and Dalbello's _whomanfoursays_ and internet started up and I browed through rec.music.gaffa shortly after the ecto list was created and the rest is history... The truth for me is that if Veda's not there my love of and commitment to the Guide is lessened. Not as a sandbox game but more as an indication of too many years too many hours editing tired of fighting no more energy to play. We could just remove the goddess list entirely but it's such a good indication of what the Guide is about (suddenly people who want reviews understand what I'm pointing to when I talk about looking at the Guide to see if their work will fit in)I'm loath to. Though an album list would serve as well. - --Neile - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - - Neile Graham .... neile@sff.net/@zipcon.com ... www.sff.net/people/neile Les Semaines: A Weekly Journal ........ www.sff.net/people/neile/ semaines Editor, The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music ........... www.ectoguide.org Workshop Administrator, Clarion West ................ www.clarionwest.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 18:54:21 -0600 From: neal copperman Subject: Re: Goddess lists At 5:37 PM -0700 4/8/08, Neile Graham wrote: >Hmm...maybe instead of goddesses, we should be talking albums. You know, that isn't a bad idea. If we were giving star ratings (which I'm not proposing), it would be cool to have a list of 5-star albums. But maybe a list of essential ecto albums, or something like that. There isn't any sort of ranking in the guide, so discovering an artist like Noe is as likely as going to a page with an artist who is much less inspiring. Just a thought, neal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 21:41:16 -0400 From: morayati@email.unc.edu Subject: Re: Goddess lists I think Veda should stay, if only because I referred someone to the Ectophiles' Guide because of her. (It was from a question on Askville, of all places.) She isn't on my list solely because I don't own anything by her, but I suspect I'll really like her since I really like Christine Fellows. - -Sarah Quoting Neile Graham : > One thing you all can do is to send your personal goddess list to > ectoguide@zipcon.com to be placed on the bio link to your EctoGuide > comments--that way, when someone looks there they can put your > comments in context. Feel free to send it in the midst of any bio > information you want up there, too. All very welcome and easy for us > to do. > > At the time the Goddess list was created, there was a kind of > consensus--at least no one complained fervently--when the list in the > Guide appeared at the end of our first discussions of goddesshood. > One or two people indicated surprise at Veda's inclusion, while I > personally wasn't thrilled about Sarah's. The subject pops up again > every few years. > > Years later now I would say that Tori has produced nearly as many > less-interesting albums as she has mind-blowing ones, and I'm > grateful that _Aerial_ is so damn good because Kate was quiet for so > many years after the very uneven _The Red Shoes_. Jane is now Issa, > who doesn't particularly draw me, though I loved Jane's albums from > the first through _Maria_. > > I personally would put Kristin and PJ there. I agree that Noe has > produced two astonishingly great albums. > > Hmm...maybe instead of goddesses, we should be talking albums. > > The album that started me down the ecto road was Marianne Faithful's > _Broken English_, which hasn't aged a bit for me. From there people > knew to give me Kate and Dalbello's _whomanfoursays_ and internet > started up and I browed through rec.music.gaffa shortly after the > ecto list was created and the rest is history... > > The truth for me is that if Veda's not there my love of and > commitment to the Guide is lessened. Not as a sandbox game but more > as an indication of too many years too many hours editing tired of > fighting no more energy to play. We could just remove the goddess > list entirely but it's such a good indication of what the Guide is > about (suddenly people who want reviews understand what I'm pointing > to when I talk about looking at the Guide to see if their work will > fit in)I'm loath to. Though an album list would serve as well. > > --Neile > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > Neile Graham .... neile@sff.net/@zipcon.com ... www.sff.net/people/neile > Les Semaines: A Weekly Journal ........ www.sff.net/people/neile/ > semaines > Editor, The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music ........... > www.ectoguide.org > Workshop Administrator, Clarion West ................ > www.clarionwest.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 23:04:24 -0400 From: Michael Curry Subject: Re: Goddess lists Neile Graham wrote: > At the time the Goddess list was created, there was a kind of > consensus--at least no one complained fervently--when the list in the > Guide appeared at the end of our first discussions of goddesshood. > One or two people indicated surprise at Veda's inclusion, while I > personally wasn't thrilled about Sarah's. The subject pops up again > every few years. Frankly, I think the list on the ectoguide should be labelled as "the original ecto Goddesses" or "the first ecto Goddesses" or something similar, and then left alone. Michael ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V13 #451 ***************************