From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V13 #450 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Tuesday, April 8 2008 Volume 13 : Number 450 To unsubscribe: e-mail ecto-digest-request@smoe.org and put the word unsubscribe in the message body. Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: goddesses [morayati@email.unc.edu] Today's your birthday, friend... [Mike Matthews ] Re: goddesses [Timothy Jones-Yelvington ] goddess voting? [gordodo@optonline.net] Re: goddess voting? [Sander ] Re: goddess voting? [Tim Jones-Yelvington ] Re: goddess voting? [morayati@email.unc.edu] Re: goddess voting? [gordodo@optonline.net] Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... ["Karen Hester" ] Thoughts on Goddess worship [jjhanson@att.net] RE: goddess voting? [Leonora Christina Skov ] Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... ["Sue Trowbridge" : > The only thing missing from this list (although it is arguably addressed by > influence and maybe even by quality) is artistic vision. Ingenuity, > innovation, restlessness, singularity, whatever you want to call it. > Whatever it is that separates art from really satisfying pop music. One of > the most important criteria for me. > > tim Quoting Steve VanDevender : > Does this mean we are going to have to come up with an Ecto canonization > process? > > Although I'm not sure we'd ever all entirely agree about who should be > on the Ecto goddess list, one thing that I do think unites the > currently-listed Ecto goddesses is that they are individual, independent > forces creating their own music, as opposed to being lead singers of > bands or people who only sing music written by other people. I'd say > that such individual vision and independence are even more important > than whatever influence they've had on other musicians. > > By such a standard I'd support putting Noe Venable on the Ecto goddess > list, but I'd also have to plug for Laurie Anderson and Kristin Hersh. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 03:00:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Mike Matthews Subject: Today's your birthday, friend... i*i*i*i*i*i i*i*i*i*i*i *************** *****HAPPY********* **************BIRTHDAY********* *************************************************** *************************************************************************** ************************ Heidi Heller (ho@his.com) ************************ *************************************************************************** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Heidi Heller Mon April 08 1974 Aries Jill Hughes Sat April 09 1955 Aries Klaus Kluge Sun April 10 1960 Unicorn Steve VanDevender Sun April 10 1966 Racer Art Liestman Fri April 10 1953 Repeat Stephen Golden Sat April 10 1971 Jokey Michael Bowman Wed April 11 1962 Aries Wolfgang Ullwer Fri April 11 1969 Widder Janet Kirsch Thu April 11 1974 Aries Kristen Scallion Fri April 12 1974 Aries Jerry Tue April 13 1971 Aries Stuart Myerburg Mon April 14 1969 Aries T-Bone Wed April 15 1992 happy cat Jeff Hanson Sat April 16 1966 Aries Michael Klouda Mon April 17 1967 Aries Noe Venable Tue April 20 1976 Aries Harry Foster Sat April 21 1956 NiceGuy Kjetil Torgrim Homme Thu April 23 1970 Taurus Jeff Burka Thu April 24 1969 GoFlyAKite Christine Waite Tue April 25 1972 Taurus Matt Adams Thu April 26 1962 Taurus Brad Hutchinson Tue April 28 1964 What sign? Geoff Parks Sun April 30 1961 Taurus Marty Lash Sat May 01 1948 Taurus Barney Parker Fri May 02 1986 happy cat Gray Abbott Tue May 03 1955 Suprised Tamar Boursalian Tue May 03 1966 Taurus Richard A. Holmes May 07 Taurus Steve Ito Fri May 08 1970 DA Bull... - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 07:19:18 -0500 From: Timothy Jones-Yelvington Subject: Re: goddesses Yes. I agree with you on pop and art, I didn't mean to make too harsh a distinction. I think they're great criteria. On 4/8/08 1:08 AM, "morayati@email.unc.edu" wrote: > Responding to two posts in one message since they sort of go together. > > I was pondering something about artistic vision, but wasn't sure what > to call it, so I ended up lumping it into quality. Probably it's a > large part of what separates the good from the great. (It might also > have something to do with the fact that I dashed off the criteria in > about 10 minutes. If people like them that's great, but I don't intend > them as canon or anywhere close. For that matter, I'd also say I didn't > mean it as a rubric, or a pass/fail sort of thing. > > I also don't see pop music and art as mutually exclusive. A lot of what > is now recognized as art (not just musically) started out as the > equivalent of pop music (except not musically, but I can't think of the > corresponding word at the moment). If it's a Venn diagram perhaps the > space in the middle is smaller rather than larger, but it's there. I > could also possibly see lead singers of bands, depending on how much > input they have in the band. > > Quoting Timothy Jones-Yelvington : > >> The only thing missing from this list (although it is arguably addressed by >> influence and maybe even by quality) is artistic vision. Ingenuity, >> innovation, restlessness, singularity, whatever you want to call it. >> Whatever it is that separates art from really satisfying pop music. One of >> the most important criteria for me. >> >> tim > > Quoting Steve VanDevender : > >> Does this mean we are going to have to come up with an Ecto canonization >> process? >> >> Although I'm not sure we'd ever all entirely agree about who should be >> on the Ecto goddess list, one thing that I do think unites the >> currently-listed Ecto goddesses is that they are individual, independent >> forces creating their own music, as opposed to being lead singers of >> bands or people who only sing music written by other people. I'd say >> that such individual vision and independence are even more important >> than whatever influence they've had on other musicians. >> >> By such a standard I'd support putting Noe Venable on the Ecto goddess >> list, but I'd also have to plug for Laurie Anderson and Kristin Hersh. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 14:20:30 +0000 (GMT) From: gordodo@optonline.net Subject: goddess voting? how about we run a hidden ballot for ecto goddesses? i will happily compile the results in the background as to not start any flame wars so please email me directly :)i'd propose that each person gets 50 points and can nominate up to 10 artists (and you can allocate the points against the artists you nominate with a maximum of 20 points to any one artist)i will then tally up the results (both by total points and total numbers of mentions) and see if there is a consensus area on the Venn diagram of ecto taste?is two weeks sufficient to allow people time to respond? any changes to the proposal?-jasonnp ChungKing-The Hungry Years ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 17:48:56 +0200 From: Sander Subject: Re: goddess voting? gordodo@optonline.net wrote: > any changes to the proposal? Votes "against"? Or at least votes to keep the status quo? And at the very least I'd more clearly define beforehand what "consensus area" means. I see the goddesses as being people which the very largest majority of all ectophiles can agree on as being a step above (even if individual people will have quibbles with individual artists), and think this voting proposal is unlikely to capture votes from a group representing "the very largest majority of all ectophiles". When you hold a vote where the group of those who bother to vote is heavily self-selecting, and based strongly on recent discussion centered around just a single name... well, I'm not certain if even being named by a plain two-thirds majority of voters really holds enough weight to justify propelling anyone into the goddess category, let alone if some points-based scheme does. (Disclaimer: I personally have been unimpressed with (neither liking nor hating) such Noe as I've heard, and don't believe she should be counted as a goddess. I think my comments on the voting proposal would be the same if I did like her, but of course it's hard to know for certain.) Cheers, Sander ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 09:09:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Tim Jones-Yelvington Subject: Re: goddess voting? I'm not always the biggest fan of majority rule, but I think it would be a fun experiment to see what kind of data you get. tim gordodo@optonline.net wrote: how about we run a hidden ballot for ecto goddesses? i will happily compile the results in the background as to not start any flame wars so please email me directly :)i'd propose that each person gets 50 points and can nominate up to 10 artists (and you can allocate the points against the artists you nominate with a maximum of 20 points to any one artist)i will then tally up the results (both by total points and total numbers of mentions) and see if there is a consensus area on the Venn diagram of ecto taste?is two weeks sufficient to allow people time to respond? any changes to the proposal?-jasonnp ChungKing-The Hungry Years ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 12:19:50 -0400 From: morayati@email.unc.edu Subject: Re: goddess voting? So are these supposed to be for new artists only, or the existing goddesses as well? If it's the latter, at least leave Happy out of it. I mean, this is nominally the Happy Rhodes list. Any list of goddesses that doesn't include her is probably not the best for our purposes. - -Sarah Quoting gordodo@optonline.net: > how about we run a hidden ballot for ecto goddesses? i will happily > compile the results in the background as to not start any flame wars > so please email me directly :)i'd propose that each person gets 50 > points and can nominate up to 10 artists (and you can allocate the > points against the artists you nominate with a maximum of 20 points > to any one artist)i will then tally up the results (both by total > points and total numbers of mentions) and see if there is a consensus > area on the Venn diagram of ecto taste?is two weeks sufficient to > allow people time to respond? any changes to the proposal?-jasonnp > ChungKing-The Hungry Years ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 16:27:17 +0000 (GMT) From: gordodo@optonline.net Subject: Re: goddess voting? I was thinking starting clean slate - if you want happy up there, you gotta vote for happy...I dont know exactly what the consensus area looks like, but if we get 50 responses, I am betting that there will be a pretty clear divide (perhaps criteria like MLB where a name needs to appear on 75% of the ballots to be considered for induction into the hall of fame?)----- Original Message - -----From: Sander Date: Tuesday, April 8, 2008 12:09 pmSubject: Re: goddess voting?To: Ecto > gordodo@optonline.net wrote:> > any changes to the proposal?> > Votes "against"? Or at least votes to keep the status quo?> And at the very least I'd more clearly define beforehand what > "consensusarea" means. I see the goddesses as being people which > the very largest> majority of all ectophiles can agree on as being a step above > (even if> individual people will have quibbles with individual artists), > and think> this voting proposal is unlikely to capture votes from a group> representing "the very largest majority of all ectophiles".> > When you hold a vote where the group of those who bother to vote is> heavily self-selecting, and based strongly on recent discussion > centeredaround just a single name... well, I'm not certain if > even being named> by a plain two-thirds majority of voters really holds enough > weight to> justify propelling anyone into the goddess category, let alone > if some> points-based scheme does.> > > (Disclaimer: I personally have been unimpressed with (neither > liking nor> hating) such Noe as I've heard, and don't believe she should be > countedas a goddess. I think my comments on the voting proposal > would be the> same if I did like her, but of course it's hard to know for certain.)> > Cheers,> Sander> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 16:05:22 -0400 From: "Karen Hester" Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... Though I agree with Neile that we'll decide it's too confusing and leave things as they are, I think there's a major problem with the Goddess list in that it misrepresents ecto. I've been on ecto for over a decade, but I still have this (silly) feeling that loud band (a), weird artist (b) or folkie (c) "aren't really ecto," and I shouldn't post about them. This is nonsense - ecto discussions skew more towards alt-rock, indie, americana, folk and world music than they do ethereal fairy winged floaty stuff. Maybe there should be someone on the ecto Goddess list to represent noise, roughness, and edginess. I suggest PJ Harvey, Patti Smith (though I think of her as historical, we don't discuss her current music much), or Kristin Hersh (my fav). I agree with Lisa Gerrard/DCD too - she could represent world music, goth, ambient, mediaeval. I can't think of any suitable folkie - Ani is musically patchy (though so important as a person), and Dar's newer releases aren't so popular among ectophiles. It seems silly to include Joni Mitchell because we rarely discuss her, and this isn't one of those annoying Rolling Stone magazine 'most important' lists. I kinda think Sarah McLachlan should be removed (though I don't care). Did Lilith have a lasting impact? (It was important for a decade or so, but...) Do her fans think she has more than one great album? I assumed Veda was on there solely because Neile liked her :), but it's good having someone obscure on the list, and she'll do. For reference, the Goddesses: Tori Amos Kate Bush Veda Hille Sarah McLachlan Happy Rhodes Jane Siberry K. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 16:24:48 -0400 From: "Karen Hester" Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... > From: "Paul Blair" > When you have one ecto goddess and two other ecto divinities show up at your > show, not because any of them is on the bill to play later, but just to > listen to the music, I think it says something to stature and impact. And > Noe has 6 albums going back to 1996, so it's not as if she's some flash in > the pan. Ha, methinks the Northeasterners (myself included) are somewhat feverish about Noe. No one (including Neal) said Noe wasn't very talented. But Issa came because she shared a drummer (still, great compliment), and Vienna and Alex came because they're part of the Brooklyn music mafia, and such people attend one another's shows. As to Noe's six albums, I bet you've only got the most recent two :) I classify the first three as juvenilia: she was still finding her voice, and the great songs only begin to appear on album four (Boots, which is still patchy). I haven't heard her play anything pre-Boots, and she has let the first album go out of print. We could come up with a "Potential Goddesses (to keep our eyes on)" list so that newcomers can discover new artists rather than go 'duh, Tori.' It might be a bit pointless to extend the Goddess list to include people like Bjork (oooh, qualifies completely), Joni, Ani - they don't need discovering. K. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 14:56:23 -0600 From: neal copperman Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... >Though I agree with Neile that we'll decide it's too confusing and >leave things as they are, I think there's a major problem with the >Goddess list in that it misrepresents ecto. > >I've been on ecto for over a decade, but I still have this (silly) >feeling that loud band (a), weird artist (b) or folkie (c) "aren't >really ecto," and I shouldn't post about them. This is nonsense - >ecto discussions skew more towards alt-rock, indie, americana, folk >and world music than they do ethereal fairy winged floaty stuff. See, I'm not sure I agree with that. (As if we are all going to agree anyway!) In my eyes, ecto is quintessentially Happy and that general vibe that runs through Happy's music. It seems like the real precursors of that are Kate, Tori and Jane, the artist's that I think would most widely be recognized as the ecto pinnacle. I remember when the goddesses were first listed that Sarah was always a contentious choice and there was a lot of debate about that. While I like Sarahs's music pretty well, I think it never really had the far ranging nature of the other artists. While Veda's music does have that nature (and Veda would be on my personal goddess list), I've always been dubious that she has the reach and impact to really make sense on the list. (And yeah, Neile kind of got to put her on cause it's her baby, and everyone liked Veda enough and it was ecto, so no one was going to throw a tantrum about it.) I do think there are many artists who carry on that tradition, and those are the core ecto artists. For me, carrying on that tradition, and doing it well, wouldn't qualify for goddesshood. I would certainly consider folks like Bjork, Laurie Anderson, Cocteau Twins, Dead Can Dance as perfect for the list. And I'd consider Noe to be a strong next generation performer. Maybe if I still lived in the east coast and saw her regularly, I'd have stronger feelings. (It'll only be a matter of time before someone asks about male ecto pantheon, which has happened before, and usually is topped by Peter Gabriel.) For me, ecto really is that kind of vibe indicated by Happy and the core pantheon. The other stuff is all ecto-friendly music that is well suited for list discussion, but doesn't necessarily grow straight off the ecto tree. It kind of feels like the name as a genre (if you will) should almost have a Pandora association. If you like Happy, Kate and Jane, you will flip over Noe. It's not a given that you will flip over Susan McKeown, Dar Williams, ani difranco, PJ Harvey or Kristin Hersh. (yeah, yeah, nothing is totally given anyway!) Anyway, that's my view, for what it's worth. >Maybe there should be someone on the ecto Goddess list to represent >noise, roughness, and edginess. I suggest PJ Harvey, Patti Smith >(though I think of her as historical, we don't discuss her current >music much), or Kristin Hersh (my fav). That sort of happens just by the definition of Beautiful and Fierce, right? (That was from memory, I didn't check.) neal np: Beck on an old Paste sampler ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 17:05:22 -0400 From: "Karen Hester" Subject: Re: goddess voting? That sounds fun, as long as it's non-binding :) Did you mean vote for what we think the ecto Goddesses should be, or vote for our favorite ecto-ish goddesses? I'd pick some different people - more influential/central to represent ecto in the first instance, and stuff-what-I-like in the second. It would interesting to see what our musical tastes really are. Do people tend to stick to a few genres, or are we usually wide in our tastes? There must be many ectophiles who have no favorites in common. Though Kate should definitely stay a Goddess since she influenced Happy, and Jane Siberry/Issa was prominent in ecto up to 'Maria', I wonder if younger ectophiles explore backwards. I think that Happy should be left out of voting, because it's her list, our use of 'ecto' is quoting her, and I like a happy Vickie. Plus I want 10 votes. Remember ten/fifteen years ago on Usenet and mailing lists, boring poll upon boring poll - what is your favorite song, omg me too! How old are you? What other artists do you like? What is your star sign? And then I'd leave the list in horror. Thanks for the off-list offer, Jason :) K ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 20:59:10 +0000 From: jjhanson@att.net Subject: Thoughts on Goddess worship To me, the term "goddess" implies someone that evokes such a fevered level of fandom that their fan's love is likely to border on religious fervor-- encouraging them to go evangelize and praise the virtues of the artist. The artists on the Goddess list should be artists that people define themselves by--whose life wasn't the same once they "became believers". For me, I can remember a time in my life that was Pre-Happy discover vs. Post-Happy discovery, pre-Kate vs. post-Kate, pre-Jane Siberry's When I Was a Boy, vs. post-Jane Siberry's When I Was a Boy, pre-Little Earthqaakes, vs. post-Little Earthquakes--the albums weren't simply albums that I liked, they were somehow albums that changed me. Many people release albums with some great songs--but those albums don't necessarily change me or define me. The artists on the Goddess should have produced at least one life-changing piece of work, and be capable of producing an almost evangelical fan community whose fan base become so evangelical it's almost like a religious jihad. With a "Goddess", the fans feel personally hurt when others don't like their artist--they obviously didn't listen to it enough or are somehow defective in their musical tastes--while with a non-Goddess artist we see it as simply a matter of preference. This doesn't mean that all people will love all Goddesses--but the artist is able to generate that level of fandom among their fans. Obviously lots of artists can generate that level of fandom among their true fans. The ecto goddesses should be artists that generate that level of fandom among a good percentage of the ectophiles. Personally I'm fairly satisfied with the current list--obviously I have some others that mean more to me than others (Alison Moyet, Maria McKee, Jewel) but I realize they haven't had the same impact to other people on the list. The current list of ecto goddesses seem to be fairly representative of those artists that really captured the attention of the list as a whole, and have produced at least one work that is widely recognized on the list as a masterpiece. Just my .02--any discussion of goddesses really will become a religious discussion--which can be fun and produce more lively discussion than we've had in the past, but will likely never come up with a list that will satisfy everyone. Jeff Hanson np. Happy Rhodes - Equipoise nr. Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows (finally!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 23:16:29 +0200 From: Leonora Christina Skov Subject: RE: goddess voting? Well, I think a hidden ballot is a great idea. In case the rest of the list decides to vote here are my goddesses: Tori Amos Feist Kate Bush PJ Harvey Sarah McLachlan Cat Power Fiona Apple Joni Mitchell Regina Spektor Lisa Germano Best, Leonora "After a certain age you get the face you deserve" (Joan Collins) Forfatter, mag.art. Leonora Christina Skov H.C. Xrsteds Vej 35, 3.tv., 1879 Frb. C. Tlf 38 19 03 81 / 26 85 67 27 www.leonorachristinaskov.blogspot.com > Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 14:20:30 +0000> From: gordodo@optonline.net> Subject: goddess voting?> To: ecto@smoe.org> > how about we run a hidden ballot for ecto goddesses? i will happily compile the results in the background as to not start any flame wars so please email me directly :)i'd propose that each person gets 50 points and can nominate up to 10 artists (and you can allocate the points against the artists you nominate with a maximum of 20 points to any one artist)i will then tally up the results (both by total points and total numbers of mentions) and see if there is a consensus area on the Venn diagram of ecto taste?is two weeks sufficient to allow people time to respond? any changes to the proposal?-jasonnp ChungKing-The Hungry Years _________________________________________________________________ Gratis smilyes, spil og aktiviteter til din Messenger http://www2.messengerplayground.dk/?cmp=text_forside ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 14:21:51 -0700 From: "Sue Trowbridge" Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... On 4/8/08, Karen Hester wrote: > Ha, methinks the Northeasterners (myself included) are somewhat > feverish about Noe. No one (including Neal) said Noe wasn't very > talented. But Issa came because she shared a drummer (still, great > compliment), and Vienna and Alex came because they're part of the > Brooklyn music mafia, and such people attend one another's shows. Aren't Noe & Vienna also both ex-Bay Area residents? Perhaps they have a bond because of that. The one person whose name has come up that I can't believe isn't already on the goddess list is Kristen Hersh. She's been making brilliant music for over 20 years now and I think there is at least some consensus here that her work is worthy of recognition. - --Sue ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 17:27:31 -0400 From: "Karen Hester" Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:56 PM, neal copperman wrote: > See, I'm not sure I agree with that. (As if we are all going to agree > anyway!) I've decided that I agree with you, rather than with myself :) Usually I define ecto by its core (Happy, Kate, Tori, Jane (not Issa), in that order), and that flows outwards, becoming less ecto but still acceptable, just because we share various other tastes. Wot you said. Sometimes I define it by 'what we like in common', or 'what we discuss the most', which is often less ecto in the former sense. I worry that the core is a somewhat historical group, representing the tastes of those of us who came into our music infatuation during the 80s/early 90s, but perhaps that's best - non-interventionist Goddesses can't embarrass themselves with bad new albums! I agree that Bjork, Cocteau Twins, Dead Can Dance work; I think of Laurie Anderson as more intellectual and arty than the current Goddesses. > I remember when the goddesses were first listed that Sarah was always a > contentious choice and there was a lot of debate about that. While I like > Sarahs's music pretty well, I think it never really had the far ranging > nature of the other artists. I don't think 'Beautiful and Fierce' applies to Sarah - very very pretty, and as fierce as a puppy in a tissue paper advert. But she can be a Goddess for services rendered to women in music. K. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 16:12:24 -0600 From: neal copperman Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... At 5:27 PM -0400 4/8/08, Karen Hester wrote: >On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:56 PM, neal copperman wrote: >> See, I'm not sure I agree with that. (As if we are all going to agree >> anyway!) > >I've decided that I agree with you, rather than with myself :) Let me try to win you back to your side! :) >I worry that the core is a somewhat historical group, representing the >tastes of those of us who came into our music infatuation during the >80s/early 90s, but perhaps that's best - non-interventionist Goddesses >can't embarrass themselves with bad new albums! I've kind of wondered about that too. Clearly there are artists working in those styles. Are they having as strong an impact on people today as those albums had on many of us in the 80's and 90's? One possible explanation is that the core artists were kind of forging a new sound/style that opened up how people listened. There are people that continue to do that, but it all sounds really different then how the ecto folk did it. And their fans are spinning off in their own directions. >I don't think 'Beautiful and Fierce' applies to Sarah - very very >pretty, and as fierce as a puppy in a tissue paper advert. But she >can be a Goddess for services rendered to women in music. I actually meant that was the place to point people to for suggestions on artists like PJ Harvey and Kristin Hersh. neal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 18:06:07 -0400 From: morayati@email.unc.edu Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... Forgive me, but I've wondered this for a while now - what's the whole Jane/not Issa thing about? I know about the name change, but I've noticed a bit of...well, for the lack of a better word, animosity. - -Sarah Quoting Karen Hester : > On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:56 PM, neal copperman wrote: >> See, I'm not sure I agree with that. (As if we are all going to agree >> anyway!) > > I've decided that I agree with you, rather than with myself :) > > Usually I define ecto by its core (Happy, Kate, Tori, Jane (not Issa), > in that order), and that flows outwards, becoming less ecto but still > acceptable, just because we share various other tastes. Wot you said. > > Sometimes I define it by 'what we like in common', or 'what we discuss > the most', which is often less ecto in the former sense. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 18:26:39 -0400 From: "Aly Fields" Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... I agree with the lack of edge but also wonder its place on ecto. Regardless, I support PJ and Patti both. Also agree with Lisa Gerrard, I repeat my nomination for Liz Fraser/Cocteau Twins (and I guess to a lesser extent This Mortal Coil) because I feel like her voice with that music IS the pinnacle of ethereal ecto. Cocteaus have always been consistent with musical quality, even as they got poppier. I like Veda where she is, I don't have as much by her but I feel like her inclusion is pretty worthwhile. On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:05 PM, Karen Hester wrote: > Though I agree with Neile that we'll decide it's too confusing and > leave things as they are, I think there's a major problem with the > Goddess list in that it misrepresents ecto. > > I've been on ecto for over a decade, but I still have this (silly) > feeling that loud band (a), weird artist (b) or folkie (c) "aren't > really ecto," and I shouldn't post about them. This is nonsense - > ecto discussions skew more towards alt-rock, indie, americana, folk > and world music than they do ethereal fairy winged floaty stuff. > > Maybe there should be someone on the ecto Goddess list to represent > noise, roughness, and edginess. I suggest PJ Harvey, Patti Smith > (though I think of her as historical, we don't discuss her current > music much), or Kristin Hersh (my fav). > > I agree with Lisa Gerrard/DCD too - she could represent world music, > goth, ambient, mediaeval. > > I can't think of any suitable folkie - Ani is musically patchy (though > so important as a person), and Dar's newer releases aren't so popular > among ectophiles. It seems silly to include Joni Mitchell because we > rarely discuss her, and this isn't one of those annoying Rolling Stone > magazine 'most important' lists. > > I kinda think Sarah McLachlan should be removed (though I don't care). > Did Lilith have a lasting impact? (It was important for a decade or > so, but...) Do her fans think she has more than one great album? > > I assumed Veda was on there solely because Neile liked her :), but > it's good having someone obscure on the list, and she'll do. > > For reference, the Goddesses: > Tori Amos > Kate Bush > Veda Hille > Sarah McLachlan > Happy Rhodes > Jane Siberry > > K. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 15:15:58 -0700 From: Greg Bossert Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... On Apr 8, 2008, at 2:27 PM, Karen Hester wrote: > I don't think 'Beautiful and Fierce' applies to Sarah - very very > pretty, and as fierce as a puppy in a tissue paper advert. But she > can be a Goddess for services rendered to women in music. ah, but that's a post-Lilith, post-Surfacing viewpoint. when Fumbling Towards Ecstasy first came out, and Sarah was still cranking her guitar through a little Crate amp, she seemed, to me at least, exactly beautiful and fierce. artists drift about, and ecto has drifted about. but then again, i'm opposed to the notion of deity, and all the more so of deification. i'll take my artists human, thanks... 'tah - -g - -- i have never been afraid to change - -- the circumstances of the world - -- Happy Rhodes ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 18:39:09 -0400 From: "Aly Fields" Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... Yes, but what is beautiful and fierce meant to be anyway? What about Diamanda Galas? On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 6:12 PM, neal copperman wrote: > At 5:27 PM -0400 4/8/08, Karen Hester wrote: > > > On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:56 PM, neal copperman wrote: > > > > > See, I'm not sure I agree with that. (As if we are all going to > > > agree > > > anyway!) > > > > > > > I've decided that I agree with you, rather than with myself :) > > > > Let me try to win you back to your side! :) > > I worry that the core is a somewhat historical group, representing the > > tastes of those of us who came into our music infatuation during the > > 80s/early 90s, but perhaps that's best - non-interventionist Goddesses > > can't embarrass themselves with bad new albums! > > > > I've kind of wondered about that too. Clearly there are artists working > in those styles. Are they having as strong an impact on people today as > those albums had on many of us in the 80's and 90's? > > One possible explanation is that the core artists were kind of forging a > new sound/style that opened up how people listened. There are people that > continue to do that, but it all sounds really different then how the ecto > folk did it. And their fans are spinning off in their own directions. > > I don't think 'Beautiful and Fierce' applies to Sarah - very very > > pretty, and as fierce as a puppy in a tissue paper advert. But she > > can be a Goddess for services rendered to women in music. > > > > I actually meant that was the place to point people to for suggestions on > artists like PJ Harvey and Kristin Hersh. > > neal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 18:46:44 -0400 From: "Paul Blair" Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:24 PM, Karen Hester wrote: > Ha, methinks the Northeasterners (myself included) are somewhat > feverish about Noe. No one (including Neal) said Noe wasn't very > talented. But Issa came because she shared a drummer (still, great > compliment), and Vienna and Alex came because they're part of the > Brooklyn music mafia, and such people attend one another's shows. I'm sure Rachael came in part because of Todd Sickafoose, too, but in my experience it still takes something to get a musician out at another musician's show--partly because they work hard, and that's their work. As to Noe's six albums, I bet you've only got the most recent two :) Actually, no. I have "No Curses Here," "Down Easy," "Boots" and the most recent too. > > I classify the first three as juvenilia: she was still finding her > voice, and the great songs only begin to appear on album four (Boots, > which is still patchy). I haven't heard her play anything pre-Boots, > and she has let the first album go out of print. I'd love to hear her do "Alcina's Things" some time. And "Look, Luck" is right up there with "Sparrow I Will Fly" on my list (and she's played it within recent memory). I haven't listened to them in awhile, so that's just off the top of my head. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 16:04:47 -0700 From: "Bill Mazur" Subject: RE: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... Thank you Greg! I have been reading this thread and wanted to say something. You said it much more succinctly than I would have: "But then again, I'm opposed to the notion of deity, and all the more so of deification. I'll take my artists human, thanks..." I agree with that statement 100% - The only other thing I might add is that I feel like the artists themselves wouldn't necessarily feel comfortable with being deified either. I realize that this concept of "goddesses" is a way of showing great respect to the artists we all love. So I don't want to sound critical here. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecto@smoe.org [mailto:owner-ecto@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Greg Bossert Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 3:16 PM To: ecto [place] Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... On Apr 8, 2008, at 2:27 PM, Karen Hester wrote: > I don't think 'Beautiful and Fierce' applies to Sarah - very very > pretty, and as fierce as a puppy in a tissue paper advert. But she > can be a Goddess for services rendered to women in music. ah, but that's a post-Lilith, post-Surfacing viewpoint. when Fumbling Towards Ecstasy first came out, and Sarah was still cranking her guitar through a little Crate amp, she seemed, to me at least, exactly beautiful and fierce. artists drift about, and ecto has drifted about. but then again, i'm opposed to the notion of deity, and all the more so of deification. i'll take my artists human, thanks... 'tah - -g - -- i have never been afraid to change - -- the circumstances of the world - -- Happy Rhodes ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V13 #450 ***************************