From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V13 #449 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Tuesday, April 8 2008 Volume 13 : Number 449 To unsubscribe: e-mail ecto-digest-request@smoe.org and put the word unsubscribe in the message body. Today's Subjects: ----------------- Today's your birthday, friend... [Mike Matthews ] Re: Goddesses - my thoughts ["robert bristow-johnson" ] Re: keren ann [Tim Jones-Yelvington ] Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... ["Paul Blair" Subject: Today's your birthday, friend... i*i*i*i*i*i i*i*i*i*i*i *************** *****HAPPY********* **************BIRTHDAY********* *************************************************** *************************************************************************** ********************* David Dixon (no Email address) ********************** *************************************************************************** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- David Dixon Tue April 07 1970 Aries Heidi Heller Mon April 08 1974 Aries Jill Hughes Sat April 09 1955 Aries Klaus Kluge Sun April 10 1960 Unicorn Steve VanDevender Sun April 10 1966 Racer Art Liestman Fri April 10 1953 Repeat Stephen Golden Sat April 10 1971 Jokey Michael Bowman Wed April 11 1962 Aries Wolfgang Ullwer Fri April 11 1969 Widder Janet Kirsch Thu April 11 1974 Aries Kristen Scallion Fri April 12 1974 Aries Jerry Tue April 13 1971 Aries Stuart Myerburg Mon April 14 1969 Aries T-Bone Wed April 15 1992 happy cat Jeff Hanson Sat April 16 1966 Aries Michael Klouda Mon April 17 1967 Aries Noe Venable Tue April 20 1976 Aries Harry Foster Sat April 21 1956 NiceGuy Kjetil Torgrim Homme Thu April 23 1970 Taurus Jeff Burka Thu April 24 1969 GoFlyAKite Christine Waite Tue April 25 1972 Taurus Matt Adams Thu April 26 1962 Taurus Brad Hutchinson Tue April 28 1964 What sign? Geoff Parks Sun April 30 1961 Taurus Marty Lash Sat May 01 1948 Taurus Barney Parker Fri May 02 1986 happy cat Gray Abbott Tue May 03 1955 Suprised Tamar Boursalian Tue May 03 1966 Taurus Richard A. Holmes May 07 Taurus - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 13:02:23 -0400 From: "robert bristow-johnson" Subject: Re: Goddesses - my thoughts > - Musical quality: Well, naturally. Quality is a subjective term, but I'm > pretty sure all of us have a knack for spotting it. What gets tricky is the > line between "quality" and "goddess quality". > > - Longevity: I'm open to the possibility that, say, next month, an artist > will come absolutely out of nowhere and release a goddess-caliber album, but > realistically, I'd say you would have to have at least a few albums (or > years, or whatever) under your belt before you qualify. > > - Influence: A tough one, I'll admit, because to influence people you have to > be somewhat in the public eye. Nevertheless, it can only help. I'd argue for > Sarah McLachlan's inclusion, for instance, partly for influence. > the scope of this expaned beyond my original intention. (whether or not the Ecto-goddess category or web page should exist at all, and who, beyond Noe and those presently on the list, should be on it.) i originally just wanted us to consider putting Noe's name on the page. about Noe's musical quality, longevity, and influence, we need to consider the precedence of who presently is on the list. music quality: this particular goddess list is the *ecto* goddess list. the existence of that list, or this mailing list, naming the whole genre, is from Happy's work. and i think that everyone agrees that Happy's music, although very original, the style of it has some influence from KaTe. so with Happy and KaTe we can all agree that, besides being superb musicians, the art is unmistakably steeped in estrogen, intimacy (sensuality and sexuality, but not the icky kind that britney and other girls that leave their panties in the drawer and are far more famous than their talent would be expected to take them), otherworldly ambience, yet some edge. Lisa Gerrard could be on the list (on the otherworldly end). perhaps Patti Smith (on the edge). Tori is one the list (as she should be, IMO), but she's neither as edgy as Patti nor as ethereal as Lisa. Tori doesn't have the social axe to grind that Ani D. has or some other similar artists. but Noe is like that. i don't expect to be politically disgusted listening to Noe's music, although i have little doubt that i identify with her about most of these same issues. she has several CDs out, the last 3 are the only ones i have, but each CD is very defensible (not every song, but that's what i might also say about Happy or Kate). each is a work of art. nearly every song is a wonderful work of art, whether it's a foot-stomping rocker like Prayer for beauty or Boots. some are amaazingly orchestrated pieces that take 6 months to discover, like Army of Nows. some are raging and ranting, like Madonna, Feral, Is the Spirit here. BTW, Noe's ability to musically rant is second to none. no one does it better. so, if possible, i would like to keep the issue focussed on whether Noe should be on the list or not. i realize that if the list didn't exist (which is an ancillary topic that came up with this) she couldn't be on it. i just didn't realize when i first posted this, that the existance of the list was an unresolved agenda. - -- r b-j rbj@audioimagination.com "Imagination is more important than knowledge." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 14:43:51 -0500 From: "Paul Jensen" Subject: Re: keren ann Jessica, Keren Ann's "Not Going Anywhere" is absolutely fantastic. Not a bad track on it. It's very atmospheric - reminiscent of a time and a place that was much more pure and simple than the world around us now. It's funny, it's one of those albums that's perfect to listen to when you're happy, but works on a whole other level if you're feeling sad.. if that makes sense.. Her self-titled album is good. It's not a classic, like "Not Going Anywhere". My problem with it is that it doesn't have a consistent sound. Sometimes that's a good thing with artists, but with Keren Ann I'd rather her stick with a consistent mood for an album. Some of the songs are just a little boring, too.. However, the album features a few amazing tracks, including "Liberty", "Lay Your Head Down", and the Mazzy Star sounding "It's All A Lie". She's an artist that I'll probably always listen to no matter how good or bad her albums are. Her voice is just beautiful. Paul - -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "This is the time. And this is the record of the time." - -Laurie Anderson ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 14:43:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Tim Jones-Yelvington Subject: Re: keren ann The only record I have is "Nolita," and I've found her to be well-above-average background music. I really like the weird track at the end with the dude speaking. tim Paul Jensen wrote: Jessica, Keren Ann's "Not Going Anywhere" is absolutely fantastic. Not a bad track on it. It's very atmospheric - reminiscent of a time and a place that was much more pure and simple than the world around us now. It's funny, it's one of those albums that's perfect to listen to when you're happy, but works on a whole other level if you're feeling sad.. if that makes sense.. Her self-titled album is good. It's not a classic, like "Not Going Anywhere". My problem with it is that it doesn't have a consistent sound. Sometimes that's a good thing with artists, but with Keren Ann I'd rather her stick with a consistent mood for an album. Some of the songs are just a little boring, too.. However, the album features a few amazing tracks, including "Liberty", "Lay Your Head Down", and the Mazzy Star sounding "It's All A Lie". She's an artist that I'll probably always listen to no matter how good or bad her albums are. Her voice is just beautiful. Paul - -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "This is the time. And this is the record of the time." - -Laurie Anderson ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 21:41:25 -0400 From: "Paul Blair" Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... I'm with Tim--much as I'd like to see Noe on this list, even the little discussion we've had so far suggests it wouldn't be productive to open this can of worms. But... Who is this Jane Siberry person the list refers to? On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 5:13 PM, Neile Graham wrote: > Yes, the section is contentious enough that ever time it comes up for > discussion the options and opinions are so all over the place I can never > bring myself to do anything about it so it just stays as it was first set > up. > > I keep telling myself there's plenty to tackle with the Guide without > messing wit it--it's just too overwhelming. > > And yet, I don't want to just delete it. > > So. > > --Neile > > On Apr 6, 2008, at 1:00 PM, Timothy Jones-Yelvington wrote: > > For some reason, I thought the "goddess" section had been deleted. > > > > It seems to me that such a category is invariably contentious. > > > > At the same time, I never would have known to prioritize Veda Hille > > otherwise. > > > > tim > > > > > > On 4/5/08 9:50 PM, "robert bristow-johnson" > > wrote: > > > > > > here i am listening to Lion Dreams (there is this wonderful Grand Pause > > > around > > > 2:49 into the song) and still tingling from the Pummeling she gave us > > > a week > > > ago. > > > > > > come on, those of us who were there a week ago Friday, isn't Noe a > > > goddess? i > > > think she comes from Ectolympus but i don't see her name in: > > > > > > http://ectoguide.org/genre/goddess > > > > > > doesn't it belong there? > > > > > > -- > > > > > > r b-j rbj@audioimagination.com > > > > > > "Imagination is more important than knowledge." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 19:56:32 -0600 From: neal copperman Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... I dunno. Those are fun cans of worms, I think. Sort of like the top 10 performers of all time or the best albums kind of lists. From my book, Noe doesn't have the history, stature or impact to be dubbed a goddess yet. I think the goddesses are supposed to be the absolute pinnacle of ecto artists. Noe is a great artist, but there are probably 100 other artists that are just as solid. My two cents :) neal . At 9:41 PM -0400 4/7/08, Paul Blair wrote: >I'm with Tim--much as I'd like to see Noe on this list, even the little >discussion we've had so far suggests it wouldn't be productive to open this >can of worms. > >But... Who is this Jane Siberry person the list refers to? > >On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 5:13 PM, Neile Graham wrote: > >> Yes, the section is contentious enough that ever time it comes up for >> discussion the options and opinions are so all over the place I can never >> bring myself to do anything about it so it just stays as it was first set >> up. >> >> I keep telling myself there's plenty to tackle with the Guide without >> messing wit it--it's just too overwhelming. >> >> And yet, I don't want to just delete it. >> >> So. >> >> --Neile >> >> On Apr 6, 2008, at 1:00 PM, Timothy Jones-Yelvington wrote: >> >> For some reason, I thought the "goddess" section had been deleted. >> > >> > It seems to me that such a category is invariably contentious. >> > >> > At the same time, I never would have known to prioritize Veda Hille >> > otherwise. >> > >> > tim >> > >> > >> > On 4/5/08 9:50 PM, "robert bristow-johnson" >> > wrote: >> > >> > >> > here i am listening to Lion Dreams (there is this wonderful Grand Pause >> > > around >> > > 2:49 into the song) and still tingling from the Pummeling she gave us >> > > a week >> > > ago. >> > > >> > > come on, those of us who were there a week ago Friday, isn't Noe a >> > > goddess? i >> > > think she comes from Ectolympus but i don't see her name in: >> > > >> > > http://ectoguide.org/genre/goddess >> > > >> > > doesn't it belong there? >> > > >> > > -- >> > > >> > > r b-j rbj@audioimagination.com >> > > >> > > "Imagination is more important than knowledge." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 22:10:04 -0400 From: "Aly Fields" Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... * But... Who is this Jane Siberry person the list refers to? * She doesn't exist anymore :P On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 9:41 PM, Paul Blair wrote: > I'm with Tim--much as I'd like to see Noe on this list, even the little > discussion we've had so far suggests it wouldn't be productive to open > this > can of worms. > > But... Who is this Jane Siberry person the list refers to? > > On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 5:13 PM, Neile Graham wrote: > > > Yes, the section is contentious enough that ever time it comes up for > > discussion the options and opinions are so all over the place I can > never > > bring myself to do anything about it so it just stays as it was first > set > > up. > > > > I keep telling myself there's plenty to tackle with the Guide without > > messing wit it--it's just too overwhelming. > > > > And yet, I don't want to just delete it. > > > > So. > > > > --Neile > > > > On Apr 6, 2008, at 1:00 PM, Timothy Jones-Yelvington wrote: > > > > For some reason, I thought the "goddess" section had been deleted. > > > > > > It seems to me that such a category is invariably contentious. > > > > > > At the same time, I never would have known to prioritize Veda Hille > > > otherwise. > > > > > > tim > > > > > > > > > On 4/5/08 9:50 PM, "robert bristow-johnson" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > here i am listening to Lion Dreams (there is this wonderful Grand > Pause > > > > around > > > > 2:49 into the song) and still tingling from the Pummeling she gave > us > > > > a week > > > > ago. > > > > > > > > come on, those of us who were there a week ago Friday, isn't Noe a > > > > goddess? i > > > > think she comes from Ectolympus but i don't see her name in: > > > > > > > > http://ectoguide.org/genre/goddess > > > > > > > > doesn't it belong there? > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > r b-j rbj@audioimagination.com > > > > > > > > "Imagination is more important than knowledge." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 22:21:00 -0400 From: "Paul Blair" Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 9:56 PM, neal copperman wrote: > From my book, Noe doesn't have the history, stature or impact to be dubbed > a goddess yet. I think the goddesses are supposed to be the absolute > pinnacle of ecto artists. Noe is a great artist, but there are probably 100 > other artists that are just as solid. > When you have one ecto goddess and two other ecto divinities show up at your show, not because any of them is on the bill to play later, but just to listen to the music, I think it says something to stature and impact. And Noe has 6 albums going back to 1996, so it's not as if she's some flash in the pan. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 23:29:05 -0400 From: "Aly Fields" Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... LOL! Oh, I remember, from the review :D On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 11:21 PM, robert bristow-johnson < rbj@audioimagination.com> wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Aly Fields" > > To: "Paul Blair" > > Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, > but if no one else... > > Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 22:10:04 -0400 > > > > > > * But... Who is this Jane Siberry person the list refers to? > > * > > She doesn't exist anymore :P > > Paul was setting me up :) since i didn't recognize either her face nor her > current name "Esa" (i know it's spelled differently, but didn't on the > 28th). still blushing. > > -- > > r b-j rbj@audioimagination.com > > "Imagination is more important than knowledge." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 23:46:43 -0400 From: "robert bristow-johnson" Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "neal copperman" > To: ecto > Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... > Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 19:56:32 -0600 > > > > From my book, Noe doesn't have the history, stature or impact to be dubbed a > goddess yet. I think the goddesses are supposed to be the absolute pinnacle > of ecto artists. a little history: http://www.hrmusic.com/artists/nvart.html > Noe is a great artist, but there are probably 100 other > artists that are just as solid. well, they can't all be in SF since she was named "one of San Francisco's 100 most talented people" by San Francisco Magazine (a creative title for a rag about SF). and since the goddess list is specifically about the *ecto* pantheon (Joni Mitchell is in another pantheon, perhaps also is Laurie A), i don't think you will find 100 artists of the genre just as solid. not even 10. and i won't name them, but i think that Noe is *far* more solid than *two* of the persons now on the list (judging from what i have heard of them, both live and on their myspace - but i keep my mind open). but, rather than starting a big squabble, i'll let my trial balloon fall to the ground. - -- r b-j rbj@audioimagination.com "Imagination is more important than knowledge." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 23:21:24 -0400 From: "robert bristow-johnson" Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aly Fields" > To: "Paul Blair" > Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... > Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 22:10:04 -0400 > > > * But... Who is this Jane Siberry person the list refers to? > * > She doesn't exist anymore :P Paul was setting me up :) since i didn't recognize either her face nor her current name "Esa" (i know it's spelled differently, but didn't on the 28th). still blushing. - -- r b-j rbj@audioimagination.com "Imagination is more important than knowledge." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 23:22:37 -0500 From: Timothy Jones-Yelvington Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... I also disagree. I don't think there anywhere near 100 artists who have her vision. On 4/7/08 9:21 PM, "Paul Blair" wrote: > On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 9:56 PM, neal copperman wrote: > >> From my book, Noe doesn't have the history, stature or impact to be dubbed >> a goddess yet. I think the goddesses are supposed to be the absolute >> pinnacle of ecto artists. Noe is a great artist, but there are probably 100 >> other artists that are just as solid. >> > > When you have one ecto goddess and two other ecto divinities show up at your > show, not because any of them is on the bill to play later, but just to > listen to the music, I think it says something to stature and impact. And > Noe has 6 albums going back to 1996, so it's not as if she's some flash in > the pan. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 23:34:53 -0500 From: Timothy Jones-Yelvington Subject: Re: Goddesses - my thoughts The only thing missing from this list (although it is arguably addressed by influence and maybe even by quality) is artistic vision. Ingenuity, innovation, restlessness, singularity, whatever you want to call it. Whatever it is that separates art from really satisfying pop music. One of the most important criteria for me. tim On 4/6/08 9:15 PM, "morayati@email.unc.edu" wrote: > It might be helpful to think about criteria. I like criteria, so here > are a few (not that anyone has to adopt these, of course, they're just > brainstorming): > > - Musical quality: Well, naturally. Quality is a subjective term, but > I'm pretty sure all of us have a knack for spotting it. What gets > tricky is the line between "quality" and "goddess quality". > > - Longevity: I'm open to the possibility that, say, next month, an > artist will come absolutely out of nowhere and release a > goddess-caliber album, but realistically, I'd say you would have to > have at least a few albums (or years, or whatever) under your belt > before you qualify. > > - Influence: A tough one, I'll admit, because to influence people you > have to be somewhat in the public eye. Nevertheless, it can only help. > I'd argue for Sarah McLachlan's inclusion, for instance, partly for > influence. > > In my personal pantheon (which changes all the time), Kristin Hersh and > Stina Nordenstam rank up there. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 22:08:10 -0700 From: Steve VanDevender Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... Does this mean we are going to have to come up with an Ecto canonization process? Although I'm not sure we'd ever all entirely agree about who should be on the Ecto goddess list, one thing that I do think unites the currently-listed Ecto goddesses is that they are individual, independent forces creating their own music, as opposed to being lead singers of bands or people who only sing music written by other people. I'd say that such individual vision and independence are even more important than whatever influence they've had on other musicians. By such a standard I'd support putting Noe Venable on the Ecto goddess list, but I'd also have to plug for Laurie Anderson and Kristin Hersh. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 01:22:37 -0400 From: "Aly Fields" Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... People might laugh but I feel like there's strong "evidence", if you will, for Yoko Ono. I'd mentioned Laurie previously, and Kristin Hersh I agree with. On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 1:08 AM, Steve VanDevender < stevev@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu> wrote: > Does this mean we are going to have to come up with an Ecto canonization > process? > > Although I'm not sure we'd ever all entirely agree about who should be > on the Ecto goddess list, one thing that I do think unites the > currently-listed Ecto goddesses is that they are individual, independent > forces creating their own music, as opposed to being lead singers of > bands or people who only sing music written by other people. I'd say > that such individual vision and independence are even more important > than whatever influence they've had on other musicians. > > By such a standard I'd support putting Noe Venable on the Ecto goddess > list, but I'd also have to plug for Laurie Anderson and Kristin Hersh. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 00:23:36 -0500 From: Timothy Jones-Yelvington Subject: Re: nomination; i would've preferred if someone else did it, but if no one else... I dig that. I think the individual vision and independence are linked with the artistic voice stuff I was talking about. tim On 4/8/08 12:08 AM, "Steve VanDevender" wrote: > Does this mean we are going to have to come up with an Ecto canonization > process? > > Although I'm not sure we'd ever all entirely agree about who should be > on the Ecto goddess list, one thing that I do think unites the > currently-listed Ecto goddesses is that they are individual, independent > forces creating their own music, as opposed to being lead singers of > bands or people who only sing music written by other people. I'd say > that such individual vision and independence are even more important > than whatever influence they've had on other musicians. > > By such a standard I'd support putting Noe Venable on the Ecto goddess > list, but I'd also have to plug for Laurie Anderson and Kristin Hersh. ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V13 #449 ***************************