From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V13 #217 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Saturday, August 18 2007 Volume 13 : Number 217 To unsubscribe: e-mail ecto-digest-request@smoe.org and put the word unsubscribe in the message body. Today's Subjects: ----------------- MySpace is what you make of it ["Allison Crowe Music Mgmt" ] Re: MySpace is what you make of it [birdie ] Re: MySpace is what you make of it ["Paul Blair" ] Re: MySpace is what you make of it [neal copperman ] Re: MySpace is what you make of it ["Xenu's Sister" ] Re: ecto-digest V13 #216 [CollectedSounds ] Re: MySpace is what you make of it ["Xenu's Sister" ] Re: MySpace is what you make of it ["Allison Crowe Music Mgmt" ] Re: MySpace is what you make of it [birdie ] Re: ecto-digest V13 #216 ["Scallion, K.D." ] Re: MySpace is what you make of it [Timothy Jones-Yelvington ] Happy's day job ["Xenu's Sister" ] Re: MySpace is what you make of it ["Xenu's Sister" Subject: MySpace is what you make of it As with most (everything?) in life, MySpace is what you make of it. It can be a wonderful, positive, space for artist and audience to connect. It can be a real mess, too. Artists and their management routinely manipulate their views and plays in the hopes of whatever is it they hope to achieve. There's more than two sides to every story. And, indeed, last.fm and dozens of other online venues exist. A musician is wise to employ each as it suits them and their fans. If MySpace works for you, and makes you and your fans happy, great. If not, no sweat. It's a free world. Nothing is mutually exclusive. Each social networking site, blog, forum, etc. etc. is simply another colour in the palette of the web experience. Some of the anti-MySpace rhetoric sounds hysterical, self-serving and ill-informed. It's a mixed up, mumbled up, shook-up world, in the words of Ray Davies. Folks just need to make the best of things and not get hung up on their own myths. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 09:54:27 -0400 From: Dave Subject: Re: ecto-digest V13 #216 The simple answer to this is that it's just so much easier for an artist to use Myspace, look at some of the advantages: .You don't have to know how to create a website .You don't have to pay someone else to create it for you .You don't have to find and pay for someone to host it .You get a large community of potential fans that you can easily interact with For fans, you get to have all of your favorite artists all in one place, no having to check dozens of websites to see who's gotten around to updating theirs, not to mention it's a great resource for finding new music. Myspace was a great tool for artists and fans alike, and was created for just that reason, it's only downfall is that it was sold to people who's only reason for having it is making money. ecto-digest wrote: > Andrew said: > >>As for the artists, they used >>to have their own websites before Myspace came along - the smarter ones, >>or should I say, the more dedicated ones still do. > > > Yes! That bothers me a lot. That is, I mean, it bothers me that > Artists get lazy and just have a MySpace page and nothing else. Sure > makes me not take them seriously. > > I like MySpace and have gotten some clients out of it (paying and > non-paying) but it takes a lot of work and if they're doing to start > being awful to artists I am ready to move on. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 07:15:42 -0700 From: birdie Subject: Re: MySpace is what you make of it A few practical things apply :-) Be aware that myspace isn't what it seems. If you post non-downloadable songs, they are, in fact, downloadable, for free, at the back door via hackers sites Post truncated - edited- versions of your songs. Samples only. Face it, most people move around and will not stay on your page to hear a whole song play anyway. If they like the samples, they'll download or buy the CD. Why post whole songs? They get ripped. However, If you want to just give away your music, terrific. Post a form or a link to your website that allows people to give you their email address. Myspace is hysterically unstable and dysfunctional and you should not depend on it. Email lists you own, can control (back-up your hard-drive, save securely, etc) and protect. Myspace, because of the capcha code installed is now painfully time consuming to send comments or messages and where it once was an effective place to use for promoting your next show, CD, etc - it now is a huge time wasting drag. Unless you have lots of visitors to your page, send bulletins and have people who read them (many do not), and can get comments and messages out to key places - high traffic profiles. Again, you are better off with an email list. Obvioulsy, for important messages, and your privacy etc....use your own email rather than myspace messaging. Best rule of thumb is to not take any of it seriously... This includes their charts and their record company (come on - music is all about digital content management - myspace is basically the least secure place on the web - music is hacked and downloaded for free, it's dysfunctional routinely, etc, etc). And use it to play samples of your songs, post bulletins, collect email addresses. The best thing I have found it for is introducing me to new people/music. Other than that, it's a mess with lots and lots of ads. :-) Birdie Allison Crowe Music Mgmt wrote: >As with most (everything?) in life, MySpace is what you make of it. It >can be a wonderful, positive, space for artist and audience to connect. >It can be a real mess, too. Artists and their management routinely >manipulate their views and plays in the hopes of whatever is it they >hope to achieve. There's more than two sides to every story. > >And, indeed, last.fm and dozens of other online venues exist. A musician >is wise to employ each as it suits them and their fans. If MySpace works >for you, and makes you and your fans happy, great. If not, no sweat. >It's a free world. Nothing is mutually exclusive. Each social networking >site, blog, forum, etc. etc. is simply another colour in the palette of >the web experience. > >Some of the anti-MySpace rhetoric sounds hysterical, self-serving and >ill-informed. It's a mixed up, mumbled up, shook-up world, in the words >of Ray Davies. Folks just need to make the best of things and not get >hung up on their own myths. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 10:12:09 -0500 From: "Paul Blair" Subject: Re: MySpace is what you make of it A couple of comments on birdie's message: > If you post non-downloadable songs, they are, in fact, downloadable, > for free, at the back door via hackers sites This isn't just a problem with myspace. There is no such thing as a non-downloadable song, no matter what site it's offered on. You can capture any audio stream that's being played on your computer without too much difficulty. > Myspace, because of the capcha code installed is now painfully time > consuming to send comments or messages What's the alternative? Without a "capcha code" spammers write automated programs to send messages all over the place. You'd never be able to find any real messages from anyone because the whole thing would be filled with herbal Viagra blurbs that it would require lots of time and effort to clean out. Any site that becomes popular is going to face the same problem. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 09:09:04 -0600 From: neal copperman Subject: Re: MySpace is what you make of it Good: I have to review a lot of music and it is handy when people send me a MySpace link to do that. Bad: If the link doesn't work, which happens at least 10% of the time, I may never try again. So much for that connection for the artist. A MySpace web site is ugly and typically contains very little useful info. It is good for listening to music (when it works), but that is about it for me. I would much rather look at a well-designed artist's site for info. I don't think I have EVER found all the info I needed to work with an artist on their MySpace page. (While I don't like SonicBids either, it actually has a hope of providing that extra info.) I never read any bulletins. I do look at and respond to messages and friends requests, but my standard response to a friends request is to encourage them to give me a real e-mail address so I can put them on my mailing list. I get a very high response rate to that. I try to remember to close the browser window immediately after listening to a song, because MySpace is such a muddled mess that it WILL impact my browser, and even my computer, if I leave myself on their pages. (That is almost a reason enough to boycott it if it were reasonably possible.) I don't think having only a MySpace page has the same stigma that it used to, but it still indicates the artist is not operating at a fully professional level. Even from the beginning, MySpace was always clumsy and unreliable. neal . At 7:15 AM -0700 8/18/07, birdie wrote: >A few practical things apply :-) > >Be aware that myspace isn't what it seems. > >If you post non-downloadable songs, they are, in fact, >downloadable, for free, at the back door via hackers sites > >Post truncated - edited- versions of your songs. Samples only. > >Face it, most people move around and will not stay on your page to >hear a whole song play anyway. > >If they like the samples, they'll download or buy the CD. > >Why post whole songs? They get ripped. > >However, If you want to just give away your music, terrific. > >Post a form or a link to your website that allows people to give you >their email address. > >Myspace is hysterically unstable and dysfunctional and you should >not depend on it. > >Email lists you own, can control (back-up your hard-drive, save >securely, etc) and protect. > >Myspace, because of the capcha code installed is now painfully time >consuming to send comments or messages >and where it once was an effective place to use for promoting your >next show, CD, etc - it now is a huge time wasting drag. > >Unless you have lots of visitors to your page, send bulletins and >have people who read them (many do not), and can get comments and >messages out to key places - high traffic profiles. > >Again, you are better off with an email list. > >Obvioulsy, for important messages, and your privacy etc....use your >own email rather than myspace messaging. > >Best rule of thumb is to not take any of it seriously... > >This includes their charts and their record company (come on - music >is all about digital content management - myspace is basically the >least secure place on the web - music is hacked and downloaded for >free, it's dysfunctional routinely, etc, etc). > >And use it to play samples of your songs, post bulletins, collect >email addresses. > >The best thing I have found it for is introducing me to new people/music. > >Other than that, it's a mess with lots and lots of ads. :-) > >Birdie > > > >Allison Crowe Music Mgmt wrote: > >>As with most (everything?) in life, MySpace is what you make of it. >>It can be a wonderful, positive, space for artist and audience to >>connect. It can be a real mess, too. Artists and their management >>routinely manipulate their views and plays in the hopes of whatever >>is it they hope to achieve. There's more than two sides to every >>story. >> >>And, indeed, last.fm and dozens of other online venues exist. A >>musician is wise to employ each as it suits them and their fans. If >>MySpace works for you, and makes you and your fans happy, great. If >>not, no sweat. It's a free world. Nothing is mutually exclusive. >>Each social networking site, blog, forum, etc. etc. is simply >>another colour in the palette of the web experience. >> >>Some of the anti-MySpace rhetoric sounds hysterical, self-serving >>and ill-informed. It's a mixed up, mumbled up, shook-up world, in >>the words of Ray Davies. Folks just need to make the best of things >>and not get hung up on their own myths. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 10:17:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "Xenu's Sister" Subject: Re: MySpace is what you make of it - --- Allison Crowe Music Mgmt wrote: > As with most (everything?) in life, MySpace is what you make of it. It > can be a wonderful, positive, space for artist and audience to connect. > Some of the anti-MySpace rhetoric sounds hysterical, self-serving and > ill-informed. It's a mixed up, mumbled up, shook-up world, in the words > of Ray Davies. Folks just need to make the best of things and not get > hung up on their own myths. To borrow a phrase from the '60's which sounds stupid but which, in the right situation, is the only thing that works... Right on! I haven't read any of the recent anti-MySpace posts because we've been there and done that to death, and because none of it has anything to do with Happy, and because more people have discovered Happy via MySpace than from any other source, so the topic doesn't interest me. Sure, my interest in MySpace has waned and I'm gone from obsessive to apathetic, but that's my problem, not MySpace's. I do, however, use AdAware a few times a week to get rid of the tracking cookies. I hate them because they bog down my computer. Those and the fucking talking smiley ads are still just about the only negative things I can say about my experience at MySpace. V - -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Music's the way, the only way I know... Happy Rhodes MySpace page: http://www.myspace.com/happyrhodes Happy Rhodes song samples: http://wretchawry.com/happy/samples Happy Rhodes on YouTube: http://wretchawry.com/happy/rarities/videolist.html Happy Rhodes Subtitled videos: http://wretchawry.com/happy/rarities/googlevideo.html Suspended In Gaffa: http://suspended-in-gaffa.com Streaming audio: http://www.myspace.com/gaffashow - -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 10:32:36 -0700 From: birdie Subject: Re: MySpace is what you make of it Paul Blair wrote: >A couple of comments on birdie's message: > > > >>If you post non-downloadable songs, they are, in fact, downloadable, >>for free, at the back door via hackers sites >> >> > >This isn't just a problem with myspace. There is no such thing as a >non-downloadable song, no matter what site it's offered on. You can >capture any audio stream that's being played on your computer without >too much difficulty. > > > Yes, I agree, but I rarely find a need to do that - even with my nakamichi deck. Unless it's an interview or some other rare thing that would be useful as research material to have on hand later, for a project. On the otherhand, has anyone found the back door to iTunes? CD Baby? Where can we go to get all that music for free? I haven't seen it. Not like what's attached to myspace. ...no direct searchable feed into and out of it. >>Myspace, because of the capcha code installed is now painfully time >>consuming to send comments or messages >> >> > >What's the alternative? > The tried and true email list! Nothing beats it. If it works, why bother with something that doesn't? Cheers! Birdie ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 12:38:51 -0500 From: CollectedSounds Subject: Re: ecto-digest V13 #216 On 8/18/07, Dave wrote: > The simple answer to this is that it's just so much easier for an artist > to use Myspace, look at some of the advantages: Which I guess is my point. If an artist is NOT willing to do the things you listed I am not going to spend a whole lot of time on them while I have hundreds of others begging for my time who do actually go about it professionally and spend the time and energy (and money). I work hard, so should they. But of course, that is just my lil' old opinion. :) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:33:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "Xenu's Sister" Subject: Re: MySpace is what you make of it - --- birdie wrote: > Paul Blair wrote: > >What's the alternative? > The tried and true email list! Nothing beats it.> > If it works, why bother with something that doesn't? I think you're wonderful, but give me a break. How do you find fans and potential fans to get them on THAT oh so great mailing list? Through places like MySpace. - --- "CollectedSounds" Which I guess is my point. If an artist is NOT willing to do the > things you listed I am not going to spend a whole lot of time on them > while I have hundreds of others begging for my time who do actually go > about it professionally and spend the time and energy (and money). Then I guess someone as brilliant as Happy is not worth your time. She HATES self-promotion. She HATES being in-your-face about her talent. When she did all that crap it didn't do any good anyway. People still ignored her. I have found, in my experience, that the most in-your-face "LOOK AT ME!!" artists are the ones usually not worth my time. There's a lot of crappy music out there, and the crappier the music, the more aggressive the musicians have to be to convince people they're good. Vickie ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 12:08:52 -0700 From: birdie Subject: Re: MySpace is what you make of it Xenu's Sister wrote: >I haven't read any of the recent anti-MySpace posts because we've been >there and done that to death, and because none of it has anything to do >with Happy, and because more people have discovered Happy via MySpace >than from any other source, so the topic doesn't interest me. Sure, my >interest in MySpace has waned and I'm gone from obsessive to apathetic, >but that's my problem, not MySpace's. > > It's an interesting thing - I have over 2,500 friends and have had to remove only about 3 comments.....all of the comments I get are from high quality people, and they either find themselves at home or really relieved to find a good space to be in when they get to my own myspace. I live in a bubble. lol But, I gotta tell you....alot of my artist friends do not...and some have been confronted with dealing with issues on myspace I wouldn't wish on anyone on this list, ever. If Happy wound up headed up the myspace charts, all these sorts of issues - like if myspace records crippled her account and dumped her off the charts cos she wouldn't sign with them... You know the list would be in a complete absolute uproar. I do have friends who are amazing artists and can find themselves climbing those charts, having lots of their music downloaded for free from backdoor sites attached to myspace, and/or should just be getting more out of myspace than they are and information that helps them protect themselves. Is there an ecto mailing list sign up form on your myspace page? Would that be a good thing? It is REALLY not an easy thing to be an independent artist in this digital day and age and anything that helps take care of them is a good thing - I think. For me, it hasn't been an anti-myspace discussion but a how to cope with it - the best way possible - and- it has taken a few turns for the worse lately....and....like anything else - it will not improve unless it is examined and discussed and I do think that would be best done by a reporter that deals with media/tech issues and can do a story on it for Rolling Stone or The Washington Post. No no...it's bound to happen...unless it's a Murdock owned paper :-) I've never been phished or spammed - I manage my own myspace - and so, I personally had no need for the capcha. I can see where other people did - - on the sites where they don't understand they can approve or not approve comments and/or have abandoned their pages pretty much or don't know how to delete junk. ..etc That just boils down to the individual....and maybe how literate they are, computer and otherwise. Unless...someone becomes a popular artist and then, you get slammed with all kinds of crap 24/7 and the nightmares really begin on myspace at that point. I pretty sure everyone makes an annoyed face whenever they hear those talky smiley ads... It makes you wonder why anyone would even use them? lol it's one of those things out there that defies logic! Cheers Birdie >I do, however, use AdAware a few times a week to get rid of the tracking >cookies. I hate them because they bog down my computer. Those and the >fucking talking smiley ads are still just about the only negative things >I can say about my experience at MySpace. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 12:24:44 -0700 From: "Allison Crowe Music Mgmt" Subject: Re: MySpace is what you make of it D'accord, Birdie. MySpace is neither Madame Curie nor does it have the mark of the Beast upon it. It's a web forum/service/site with upsides and downsides. And, an artist should find the right mix of sites to meet their individual needs and desires ( : ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 12:43:43 -0700 From: birdie Subject: Re: MySpace is what you make of it Xenu's Sister wrote: >--- birdie wrote: > > > >>Paul Blair wrote: >> >> >>>What's the alternative? >>> >>> > > > >>The tried and true email list! Nothing beats it.> >>If it works, why bother with something that doesn't? >> >> > >I think you're wonderful, but give me a break. How do you >find fans and potential fans to get them on THAT oh so >great mailing list? Through places like MySpace. > > > Oh, ha ha...I just saw this...I was busy on the other email to you - I asked you have a form on your Happy page that lets people sign up to this list? I know you haven't been reading all the posts - but - my point about the email lists is to use myspace to get people on your own - to truly expand your fanbase... >--- "CollectedSounds" > > >>Which I guess is my point. If an artist is NOT willing to do the >>things you listed I am not going to spend a whole lot of time on them >>while I have hundreds of others begging for my time who do actually go >>about it professionally and spend the time and energy (and money). >> >> > >Then I guess someone as brilliant as Happy is not worth your time. >She HATES self-promotion. She HATES being in-your-face about her >talent. When she did all that crap it didn't do any good anyway. >People still ignored her. > > I know, I have misgivings about say....your myspace for Happy having a form for people to join the ecto mailing list or what not... It might be too public or attract just all kinds of peeps....on the other hand, we could have a more active list and she'd have more fans dialed in - I can't be the judge of that - like I said, I have a very cool page and manage to attract cool people and I manage it and I feel the same way about your Happy page - except, I don't know how much if any spam and so on you get.... You'd be the best judge of it....for sure. I get the sense everything is running smoothly in Happy land as is - except - more gigs and new music would always be appreciated... Email lists are very important for peeps who tour and need to be in touch more with their fanbase. Everybody is different. I went through helping someone out with their myspace and they went from 300 plays a day to over 70,000....and....it had it's good and bad points, and knowing what I know now - I wouldn't recommend it to anyone unless myspace practices get more exposed and dealt with so it can be a healthier experience for artists. Still, while you can pick your friends - you can't pick your fans lol Happy is the best with her views and I totally respect her for it. The whole fame aspect is a rough ulgy ride sometimes....brings out the greed in peeps, for starters. Cheers Birdie >I have found, in my experience, that the most in-your-face "LOOK AT ME!!" >artists are the ones usually not worth my time. There's a lot of >crappy music out there, and the crappier the music, the more aggressive >the musicians have to be to convince people they're good. > >Vickie ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 13:09:55 -0700 From: birdie Subject: Re: MySpace is what you make of it Allison Crowe Music Mgmt wrote: D'accord, Birdie. MySpace is neither Madame Curie nor does it have the mark of the Beast upon it. It's a web forum/service/site with upsides and downsides. And, an artist should find the right mix of sites to meet their individual needs and desires ( : Yes, with Happy - I don't know if having a form (on myspace) for people to join say - this mailing list - would be a good thing or a bad. Everybody is different and so are the sites and the kinds of people they pull....and...some artists have part-time non-music jobs to support themselves and are more into it for the music than anything else....I tell everyone I know to think of a music career - in this day and age - as having a lot of part-time jobs, and that you have to work as much of them as you can....tour, get music in TV/Film, record, collaborate.......and have a fab website and attach that to all sorts of satellite sites ....like myspace and last.fm etc... and even still...you may need a solid part-time non-music job to get you past all the production and development stages you have to go through.....and great family, friends, and...fans! An artists security is in their flexibility and how much they can get themselves out there - venues, films, network sites, music stores, all of it. To go from 300 plays a day on myspace to 70,000 - if you are an indie unsigned artist - creates such a storm... Um....it would drive someone like Happy totally crazy.....I am sure. Most artists that I know and love would not want to go there once they knew what there was... But again, it is all how you put it to use....and what your tolerance is for coping with crap and bullies is... Mines zero, but I am very effective in dealing with them. When you have quality people in your life....you manage to get through the storm just fine. But, I really worry about artists that may not have great attorneys and management. as soon as you hit high in the myspace charts, you need smart wise connected people to cope with what goes on. The biggest sharks come out. Alot of offers come in - most you may not want - the bullies and scam artists arrive, too...and...if you know what you want and have the right support and great connections....it can all be a good thing in the end...but I can see for some indies, really on their own....could be a complete nightmare. Weathering the storm real well here....but....with words of caution for anyone contemplating it. :-) Birdie Allison Crowe Music Mgmt wrote: >D'accord, Birdie. MySpace is neither Madame Curie nor does it have the >mark of the Beast upon it. It's a web forum/service/site with upsides >and downsides. > >And, an artist should find the right mix of sites to meet their >individual needs and desires ( : ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:15:35 -0700 From: "Scallion, K.D." Subject: Re: ecto-digest V13 #216 I've been kind of happy with artists using myspace just so I can hear their music. Their music is more important to me than the visual presentation. I can listen to as much or as little as I like of any particular song (some artists take a longer listen to get a feel for - at least for me). If I like what I hear, then I usually check out their main website (if they have one). It does surprise me if they don't have a main website outside of myspace though. If I like what I hear, then I want to get more info on the artist than is usually available on myspace. I've also been annoyed in the past before myspace by going to an artist's website that's supposed to be about their music, and they have no music samples at all. I just close the page and write them off of my list. If they can't be bothered to let you hear even a snippet of their music, I can't be bothered to buy their cds. Kristen - ----- Original Message ----- From: "CollectedSounds" To: Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 10:38 AM Subject: Re: ecto-digest V13 #216 > On 8/18/07, Dave wrote: >> The simple answer to this is that it's just so much easier for an artist >> to use Myspace, look at some of the advantages: > > Which I guess is my point. If an artist is NOT willing to do the > things you listed I am not going to spend a whole lot of time on them > while I have hundreds of others begging for my time who do actually go > about it professionally and spend the time and energy (and money). I > work hard, so should they. But of course, that is just my lil' old > opinion. :) > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.0/959 - Release Date: 8/17/2007 > 5:43 PM ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 18:47:04 -0500 From: Timothy Jones-Yelvington Subject: Re: MySpace is what you make of it I agree completely that independent musicians gotta use whatever works, whatever resources are at their disposal, to get their work heard and to develop a fan-base. But the rest of this email's rhetoric (and yes, I'm throwing that word back at it deliberately) really rubs me the wrong way. It's the kind of individualistic, "it's a goddamn world" anti-absolutist argument that instantly shuts down conversations about systemic injustice. There's a lot about corporatized global capitalism that is immensely fucked. And that's not the result of some abstract "mixed up, mumbled up, shook-up"-edness. It's the result of very specific histories that sometimes need to be discussed very specifically. I think the sentence that really irks me is this: > It's a free world. No. No it's not. For lots and lots of people, it's not. And the Rupert Murdochs of the world (and all of us, on a smaller scale) are complicit in the processes that make that so. ~tim ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 17:24:16 -0700 From: "Allison Crowe Music Mgmt" Subject: Re: MySpace is what you make of it If one looks at the original context of my points, Timothy, the Kinky quote and the point that it's a free world relate to MySpace and its specific use - not to global issues of injustice. It is a free world with respect to MySpace. You can choose to use it, or not use it. Most of the world's population will never want/use a MySpace account. The tiny percentage of the population that want to post songs or not post songs online - can choose from MySpace, Last.fm or many, many others of all manner of character. I'm an idealist and a humanist. When one considers true issues of social injustice, it's mighty hard to count among these real issues the possibility of manipulated listener/viewer counts on a free social networking site. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 17:47:44 -0700 From: "Allison Crowe Music Mgmt" Subject: the numbers game I spend a lot of time online, and, what I picked up from that series of messages from folks complaining - distilled, is that they claim to have racked up high numbers of listeners/viewers - and they say that MySpace rolled their numbers back, after they refused to sign with MySpace Records. MySpace, likely, takes the position that these folks numbers were rigged - and, that being unfair to artists playing fair - required them to roll back the numbers. Essentially, it appears to be a dispute between different parties as to the way numbers are legit or illegimate in MySpace counts. I have no idea which side is telling the truth - and I doubt anyone here has the full knowledge to know the reality. They can sort it out or not. Still, it doesn't seem to in any way have global injustice implications - at least based on what's been presented. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 19:01:05 -0700 From: birdie Subject: Re: the numbers game Ooo, I think all this online numbers stuff is about as secure a voting machines. Myspace has the best shot at rigging the numbers, from the inside. The counters do get stuck sometimes there....I mean, stuck counting upwards. You can tell, they just roll like mad. That could be techno gone wonky all on its own...or? if the software that makes up their players is hackable so you can go to some site away from myspace and download ANY song posted on myspace..... Someone could probably hack in and fix the numbers, too. Like the die-bold voting machines. Then, there are all the online contests.... hahahahaaaa Another can of worms. The bots get in there and the next thing you know....someone else is magically 1,500 votes ahead of you. What happens is that due to software glitches, hack ability, corruption, and over zealous bot driving fans or management... It's all subject to being classified as a waste of time, a game, not to be taken seriously, and....not fair. So, why bother? Why not go out to the local clubs and coffeehouses and see people live and get their CD's. Thats the best vote there is... It's real. The problem is that ...what is left of the record industy....somehow depends upon these charts and contests and things.... But then, how did Bush get in office, twice? So, the industry is not alone.....when it comes to these electronic "contests". The trouble is.....they can cause wars and wreck all kinds of havoc on all kinds of lives in all kinds of ways. And with music....it can lead to buckets more crap on the airwaves and everywhere. I can go back to my bubble and listen to KCRW all day and not have to be subjected to it. Funny about KCRW - I'm actually sometimes very ahead of them in finding new music, globally....and, it is because of myspace and from cruising in my own little bubble around it....KCRW catches up, eventually. In the old days, I would bin dive the import bins at places like Aaron's Records in Hollywood....and be 2 years ahead of discovering bands from the UK, here in the states. MTV, KCRW, USENET, KPFK and certain clubs like the I-Beam in SF helped changed that... But back to the charts/contests/e-voting..... It is all subject to corruption, and it can be one or two sided...or brought on by 3rd parties (fans, the kkk, who knows) It can also be software glitch related and related to non human interference. I've monitored these things on myspace charts and on contests, and you can tell when a bot has been used or if a counter is stuck running like crazy....OR....ta da....if an artist or band is really TALENTED or not. I'm sorry but 3 million plays and they sound like crap = dead giveaway. Nashville Bound and Lelia Broussard are widely accepted as being SERIOUSLY talented and people honestly love them to bits. So, that's what matters when you tally things at the end of the day. Bush...now...that's easy....obviously the e-voting machines were hacked. Florida and Ohio. If someone rigged their own contest or chart climb and got dumped as a result.... I don't think they'd be waving flags around about it. Anyway...feel free to come on over to my place on myspace and meet the friends and make some new ones. You can tunnel around my pages for hours and be in a good place. Occassionally, I just get thrust into the bigger world of things and... it can be ugly out there!! Birdie www.myspace.com/birdiebreeze Allison Crowe Music Mgmt wrote: >I spend a lot of time online, and, what I picked up from that series of >messages from folks complaining - distilled, is that they claim to have >racked up high numbers of listeners/viewers - and they say that MySpace >rolled their numbers back, after they refused to sign with MySpace >Records. MySpace, likely, takes the position that these folks numbers >were rigged - and, that being unfair to artists playing fair - required >them to roll back the numbers. Essentially, it appears to be a dispute >between different parties as to the way numbers are legit or illegimate >in MySpace counts. > >I have no idea which side is telling the truth - and I doubt anyone here >has the full knowledge to know the reality. > >They can sort it out or not. Still, it doesn't seem to in any way have >global injustice implications - at least based on what's been presented. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 20:13:47 -0700 (PDT) From: "Xenu's Sister" Subject: Happy's day job I had this in one of my other MySpace posts in regard to musicians working day jobs, but I thought I should extract it and post it by itself since it would interest some people who aren't interested in the MySpace back and forth and aren't reading the posts. By the way, a trivia aside: Happy gave me permission to tell people what her day job is lest folks think she's working at Burger King. She hand-assembles pro-audio equipment for a company called Dangerous Music, and she does it at her home, so she's not part of the 9-5 world, dealing with shitty managers and office politics. She likes her job, a lot. She's doing something interesting that other musicians will benefit from. Chris thinks Dangerous should tout their "manufacturing plant" in their advertising ("Hand-made by a real musician...and not just ANY musician...!") Vickie ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 20:08:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "Xenu's Sister" Subject: Re: MySpace is what you make of it - --- birdie wrote: > It's an interesting thing - I have over 2,500 friends and have had to > remove only about 3 comments.....all of the comments I get are from high > quality people, and they either find themselves at home or really > relieved to find a good space to be in when they get to my own myspace. > > I live in a bubble. lol We both do. Most of the people who get to Happy's page and send an add request are people who like quality music. Even if they don't get into Happy, they've probably heard enough to know that she *is* top quality. Some have the ears and heart to know just HOW top quality she is. Those are the people who are most special to me and I could never give that up. I slack off and get behind on MySpace. I have 9 pages of add requests waiting for me right now, but I get behind because I do take the time to look at everyone's page (and I copy and paste their name and MySpace address to a file I keep) before I approve add requests. I only deny those who are obvious spammers, Burn Loungers or who have tens of thousands of "Friends." Most of them though are non-musicians who seem like good and decent people, or other artists who had to have seen Happy's name and (hopefully) listened to her music before they sent the add request. Some, regular people and musicians alike, actually get that spark and become fans. I live for that shit. > But, I gotta tell you....alot of my artist friends do not...and some > have been confronted with dealing with issues on myspace I wouldn't wish > on anyone on this list, ever. Sucks to be them, and that's too bad. I feel sorry for any artist who has trouble in the music sphere, but trouble was around in other places long long before MySpace came around. > If Happy wound up headed up the myspace charts, all these sorts of > issues - like if myspace records crippled her account and dumped her off > the charts cos she wouldn't sign with them... That would never ever happen, so just like the thought of Happy being refused a seat on the space shuttle because she didn't give her royalties to NASA, it's not something that worries me. It's not something I'd even think of (er, well, if I hadn't just thought of it.) > You know the list would be in a complete absolute uproar. Sure, but again, it's not something that worries me. This is so far away from the reality that is Happy Rhodes that it's like a fairy story in a buried book. If something bad happened that affected Happy of course I would be in an outrage about it and would want others to be too, but MySpace bashing just seems to be a spectator sport nowadays. > I do have friends who are amazing artists and can find themselves > climbing those charts, having lots of their music downloaded for free > from backdoor sites attached to myspace, and/or should just be getting > more out of myspace than they are and information that helps them > protect themselves. I understand, and I hope they stay aware and wary, just like they should even if MySpace didn't exist. > Is there an ecto mailing list sign up form on your myspace page? Would > that be a good thing? No and no (more about that in another post), but there are plenty of references and links to ecto.org if someone wants to take the time and trouble. > It is REALLY not an easy thing to be an independent artist in this > digital day and age and anything that helps take care of them is a good > thing - I think. Of course. > For me, it hasn't been an anti-myspace discussion but a how to cope with > it - the best way possible - and- it has taken a few turns for the worse > lately....and....like anything else - it will not improve unless it is > examined and discussed and I do think that would be best done by a > reporter that deals with media/tech issues and can do a story on it for > Rolling Stone or The Washington Post. Sure, maybe. After all, Billy Bragg got some publicity for the vague wording of the Terms of Agreement to make MySpace clarify that they don't own or have rights to the artists' music. If some bands are having problems and publicity helps them resolve or avoid, fine. Good for them. From my perspective, considering that I stay away from the regular MySpace and stay in my music bubble, I don't know what the downsides are (other than the tracking cookies, the smiley ads and the easily-dealt-with spam) and I suppose I could learn (reading your posts would be a good start obviously) but I'm a very very insular person and I'm only *really* interested in anything that affects Happy('s pages) so since none of this does, it doesn't pique my interest. I have a hard time staying interested in things I *am* interested in, let alone things I'm not interested in. I am glad others are keeping an eye out though. > Unless...someone becomes a popular artist and then, you get slammed with > all kinds of crap 24/7 and the nightmares really begin on myspace at > that point. I can see how that would be a problem. > It makes you wonder why anyone would even use them? lol it's one of > those things out there that defies logic! Spam would die out if nobody ever fell for them. The fact that they do work on some people is what keeps spam alive. I don't blame the spammers as much as I blame the morons who keep the spammers in business. Tracking cookies, viruses and the like will always be with us though. I don't believe in hell, but if there is one, I hope there's a special place for the low-lifes who make those things. Vickie ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V13 #217 ***************************