From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V11 #307 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Thursday, November 10 2005 Volume 11 : Number 307 Today's Subjects: ----------------- comeback wishes [Kjetil Torgrim Homme ] Re: Aerial, too [Ellen Rawson ] Re:downloads-copies-artists [Cyoakha ] How much did you pay for Ariel ? ["mrl220" ] Re: How much did you pay for Ariel ? [Ellen Rawson ] Re: Aerial, too [Steve VanDevender ] Re: How much did you pay for Ariel ? [meredith ] Re: Aerial, too [meredith ] Re: Aerial, too [Troy J Shadbolt ] Re: Aerial, too ["Jeffrey Burka" ] Re: Aerial, too [Steve VanDevender ] Re: How much did you pay for Ariel ? [wojizzle forizzle ] Re: Aerial, too [wojizzle forizzle ] Attention Seattle-folk: Rockrgrl Conference This Weekend [meredith ] Aerial on the telly! [Tim Cook ] Re: How much did you pay for Ariel ? [Bernie Mojzes ] Re: How much did you pay for Ariel ? ["R. N. Dominick" ] Editing Aerial ["afries@internode.on.net" ] Re: comeback wishes [Bernie Mojzes ] Re: Aerial, too [Scott Parkerson ] Re: How much did you pay for Ariel ? [Deb ] Re: Editing Aerial [Scott Parkerson ] Re: How much did you pay for Ariel ? [Joseph Zitt ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 12:04:45 +0100 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Subject: comeback wishes [anna maria "stjdrnell"]: > > Who else could come back? Danielle Dax? (oh please, please); > Dalbello(please with lots of sugar on top) oh yes, but my #1 wish is Beth Sorrentino (or the whole of "Suddenly, Tammy!"). I just love her piano and quirky girlish voice. too bad she's given it up. of course I wish Poe would get her legal entanglements sorted, too, but I think that's just a question of time. - -- Kjetil T. np: D'Sound, "Spice of Life" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 05:17:52 -0800 (PST) From: Ellen Rawson Subject: Re: Aerial, too - --- wojizzle forizzle wrote: > > is bertie short for "robert"? assuming i remember > correctly, the > meaning of the name robert is "noble" and "shining". > Albert Says Ellen "Literature stops in 1100. After that, it's just books." - -- JRR Tolkien ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 11:06:01 -0800 From: Cyoakha Subject: Re:downloads-copies-artists it's a funny thing...with an "unknown" artist, not with a label, such as myself, we love downloads that pay. I have watched my cd baby account go from payments of $30 for cd sales and $2 for downloads a couple months ago (cd baby is with i tunes for downloads) to currently $30 for cd sales and $30 for downloads. So it's really going up and for a small artist it really helps to keep me going. My occasional sales off of my website were sporatic at most.... With cd baby constantly putting small checks into my Land of the Blind account, when I finish a project, such as the recent Edgewalking Blind Live (at Michael Pierce's house) when I go to press it, wheeeeeeee, there's enough money in the account to actually do it! This is a revelation to someone like me, to not go into a "hole" to create. Sure, I bought a really great EQ unit that was another $250 but the cd deserved that and I will use it for other music creations. Then you look at someone like Kate, she probably only gets 10 cents off of each cd but we don't know her deal with her record company. If those sales are not shown because everyone copies it off of their friend's copy, who knows, maybe they would drop her off of the label. Maybe she'd like that, but I doubt it, then she's have to create on her own, like Jane Siberry and do all the work, like me. I figure free downloads are artists that want you to hear them. I figure anyone I know I want their work, a new Peter Gabriel, a new Kate Bush, a new Hedningarna, I just order the cd, I won't be disappointed, I don't need to preview. I never copy anyone's cd and give it away, I never ask for a copy of a friend's cd if I like it. I know an artist out there somewhere is waiting for that $7 or 2cents, or just validation that someone is listening to their life's work. Kate has always been a huge influence on my work, so I have ordered it, of course. Just another artist's two cents. (sometimes all we get, tee hee) cyoakha MY EMAIL CHANGE!! As of November 12th, my old email (cyo@landoftheblind.com) will be disconnected Please update you address book with my new email cy@landoftheblind.com which you can use immediately thanks, (just had to get rid of the 200 spamming emails/day!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 22:41:41 -0600 From: "mrl220" Subject: How much did you pay for Ariel ? Well, after looking around a little I paid $14.99 at Best Buy. It was the best deal around. Cheaper that Borders and B&N. Marty ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at msg.dcwis.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:03:14 -0800 (PST) From: Ellen Rawson Subject: Re: How much did you pay for Ariel ? - --- mrl220 wrote: > Well, after looking around a little I paid $14.99 at > Best Buy. > It was the best deal around. Cheaper that Borders > and B&N. Well, that's better than the 13.99 (pounds) I paid... ;) Ellen "Literature stops in 1100. After that, it's just books." - -- JRR Tolkien ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:09:26 -0800 From: Steve VanDevender Subject: Re: Aerial, too neal copperman writes: > >I wasn't really talking about Pi (the numbers are initially cool, > >but I think it goes on too long -- maybe it will grow on me). > > I'm sure a lot of people think that is true about Pi. The MAX light rail system in Portland, Oregon tunneled through the hill under Washington Park Zoo, and has an underground station there with elevators that take you up to the surface near the Zoo entrance. The underground station has an exhibit in the space between the two MAX tracks with displays of core samples drilled out when they were planning to excavate the site, information on local geology, how they dug the tunnel, and so on. Presumably as an attempt to make the display look more scientifical they had things like mathematical expressions and geometric diagrams carved into otherwise empty parts of the granite wall that formed the backdrop for the display. One of these decorations looked like about 100-odd decimal places of pi. In my nerdy childhood I memorized about 75 decimal places of pi, and therefore I recognized that only the first line of digits shown was correct, and several more lines of apparently random digits were engraved beneath that. I really wanted to make a placard that said "For display purposes only -- not to be used for computation" to stick next to the purported pi on the wall. I don't have _Aerial_ yet, so I'm kind of dreading my first listen to "Pi" -- did Kate get the digits right, or did she just start making them up after the generally familar first few? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 14:32:32 -0500 From: meredith Subject: Re: How much did you pay for Ariel ? Hi, mrl220 wrote: > Well, after looking around a little I paid $14.99 at Best Buy. > It was the best deal around. Cheaper that Borders and B&N. I paid $19.98 ... but it was at our local indie record emporium (Exile On Main St. in Hamden, CT) so I was happy to pay a bit of a premium for that. We ordered the UK version from amazon.uk, but I'm not sure what the damage was on that... it hasn't arrived yet. - -- =============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth =============================================== hear at the HOMe House Concert Series http://hom.smoe.org =============================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 14:44:04 -0500 From: meredith Subject: Re: Aerial, too Hi, Steve VanDevender wrote: > I don't have _Aerial_ yet, so I'm kind of dreading my first listen to > "Pi" -- did Kate get the digits right, or did she just start making them > up after the generally familar first few? This got me wondering ... so thanks to Google I visited http://www.angio.net/pi/piquery and grabbed the first 100 digits, plopped them into Notepad then put the digits from the _Aerial_ lyrics underneath. Looks like KaTe got them right this far: 3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510582 After that, it doesn't match up. I wonder if she grabbed a later batch of digits non-contiguously for the rest of the song for some reason. (I'm now reminded of the bit in _Einstein On The Beach_ where the choir is singing numbers ... it's been a long time since I've heard it, though. Anybody remember which part this is? I think it's one of the Knee Plays, but the bit I listened to the most back in the day was the Train part so it might be from there too?) - -- =============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth =============================================== hear at the HOMe House Concert Series http://hom.smoe.org =============================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:18:17 -0800 From: Troy J Shadbolt Subject: Re: Aerial, too and for the totally geeks, here's KaTe's version of PI. I haven't looked it up to see if it's correct past the 8th digit (the spaces are as printed in the lyrics, which match pauses). 3.1415926535 897932 3846 264 338 3279 50288419 716939937510 582319749 44 59230781 6406286208 821 4808651 32 82306647 0938446095 505 8223 Quoting Steve VanDevender : > I don't have _Aerial_ yet, so I'm kind of dreading my first listen to > "Pi" -- did Kate get the digits right, or did she just start making them > up after the generally familar first few? > - -- troy j shadbolt www.voyuz.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 14:31:04 -0500 From: "Jeffrey Burka" Subject: Re: Aerial, too steve wants to know: > I don't have _Aerial_ yet, so I'm kind of dreading my first listen to > "Pi" -- did Kate get the digits right, or did she just start making them > up after the generally familar first few? From the sound of it, she starts to screw up somewhere around 80, but then she seems to pick it up the correct digits again. so, um, I'm not entirely sure if I'm just mishearing her enunciation, or if she actually screws up. jeff n.p. _Veins_, Charlotte Martin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 12:16:11 -0800 From: Steve VanDevender Subject: Re: Aerial, too Troy J Shadbolt writes: > and for the totally geeks, here's KaTe's version of PI. I haven't looked it up > to see if it's correct past the 8th digit (the spaces are as printed in the > lyrics, which match pauses). 3.1415926535 897932 3846 264 338 3279 50288419 > 716939937510 582319749 44 59230781 6406286208 821 4808651 32 82306647 > 0938446095 505 8223 Hmm, I can't seem to reliably make it out to 75 digits from memory any more; I only seem to get out to about 50-60 digits now. Here's the first 200 digits of pi from a program I have handy: 3. 14159 26535 89793 23846 26433 83279 50288 41971 69399 37510 58209 74944 59230 78164 06286 20899 86280 34825 34211 70679 82148 08651 32823 06647 09384 46095 50582 23172 53594 08128 48111 74502 84102 70193 85211 05559 64462 29489 54930 38196 Comparing this with your transcription: 3.1415926535 897932 3846 264 338 3279 50288419 716939937510 582319749 44 59230781 6406286208 821 4808651 32 82306647 ^^ ^ 0938446095 505 8223 There's a burble at the ^^ where a couple of incorrect digits get inserted, some more correct digits, and then after ^ they don't seem to match up at all any more. So Kate did better than the sculptor did. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 15:59:04 -0500 From: wojizzle forizzle Subject: Re: How much did you pay for Ariel ? one time at band camp, meredith (meth@smoe.org) said: >We ordered the UK version from amazon.uk, but I'm not sure what the >damage was on that... it hasn't arrived yet. #13 if i remember correctly. woj ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 16:00:47 -0500 From: wojizzle forizzle Subject: Re: Aerial, too one time at band camp, Jeffrey Burka (burka@jeffrey.net) said: >From the sound of it, she starts to screw up somewhere around 80, but >then she seems to pick it up the correct digits again. so, um, I'm not >entirely sure if I'm just mishearing her enunciation, or if she >actually screws up. from scanning love-hounds, it looks like she skipped 22 digits somewhere along the way. +w ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 16:08:34 -0500 From: meredith Subject: Attention Seattle-folk: Rockrgrl Conference This Weekend Hi, OMG, a non-KaTe-related posting!! :) To all in or within reach of Seattle, a very cool thing is happening this weekend: the Rockrgrl Conference. Patti Smith and Johnette Napolitano are keynote speakers at the conference itself, but then on Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights there's all sorts of good female-fronted music going on all over town. On Friday night alone you can see Rachael Sage, Erin McKeown, SONiA, Holly Figueroa, Two Loons for Tea etc. Saturday night you can see folks like Kyler England, Megan Slankard, Sam Shaber, Kym Tuvim ... and that's only scratching the surface. The full schedule is at . $50 buys you a pass to get into any of the venues all weekend, or you can also pay individual cover charges (or not -- some are free!) to get into individual venues. I really wish I could go to this, but duty calls elsewhere. I hope some of you (JoAnn ;) can make it!! - -- =============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth =============================================== hear at the HOMe House Concert Series http://hom.smoe.org =============================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 16:26:44 -0500 From: "JoAnn Whetsell" Subject: Seattle: Rockrgrl Conference & Vienna Teng Saturday's out as I'm going classical that night, but I do hope to make some of the events. Is anyone else planning to attend? And is anyone going to see Vienna Teng tonight at the Triple Door in Seattle? I have a ticket, and it would be nice to sit with friendly folks. I also have a ticket for La Guitara on the 16th, also at the Triple Door. Anyone planning to attend that? JoAnn -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: meredith To: ecto Subject: Attention Seattle-folk: Rockrgrl Conference This Weekend Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 16:08:34 -0500 >Hi, > >OMG, a non-KaTe-related posting!! :) > >To all in or within reach of Seattle, a very cool thing is happening >this weekend: the Rockrgrl Conference. > >Patti Smith and Johnette Napolitano are keynote speakers at the >conference itself, but then on Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights >there's all sorts of good female-fronted music going on all over >town. On Friday night alone you can see Rachael Sage, Erin McKeown, >SONiA, Holly Figueroa, Two Loons for Tea etc. Saturday night you >can see folks like Kyler England, Megan Slankard, Sam Shaber, Kym >Tuvim ... and that's only scratching the surface. > >The full schedule is at >. $50 buys you a >pass to get into any of the venues all weekend, or you can also pay >individual cover charges (or not -- some are free!) to get into >individual venues. > >I really wish I could go to this, but duty calls elsewhere. I hope >some of you (JoAnn ;) can make it!! > >-- >=============================================== >Meredith Tarr >New Haven, CT USA >mailto:meth@smoe.org >http://www.smoe.org/meth >=============================================== >hear at the HOMe House Concert Series >http://hom.smoe.org >=============================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:55:24 +0000 From: Tim Cook Subject: Kate Interview Not sure if this has already been mentioned but there's an audio interview with Kate. Just go to the beebs front page (www.bbc.co.uk) and click on the link. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 21:17:52 +0000 From: Tim Cook Subject: Aerial on the telly! Just listening to the Kate FrontRow interview and glanced at the telly and there it was being advertised on channel4. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 17:44:50 -0500 (EST) From: Bernie Mojzes Subject: Re: How much did you pay for Ariel ? $17.79 @ shady dog records about 30 min ago. so far, i've decided that i quite like king of the mountain (was sort of on the fence watching the video on my laptop), am enjoying Pi quite a bit (parts of which remind me more of happy than of kate), and am sorta appalled by track 3. Mrs Bartolozzi will take a few listens to form an opinion. also picked up throwing muses _limbo_, for something a little louder. brni while extremely confused, you said: > one time at band camp, meredith (meth@smoe.org) said: > > >We ordered the UK version from amazon.uk, but I'm not sure what the > >damage was on that... it hasn't arrived yet. > > #13 if i remember correctly. > > woj > - -- brni i don't want the world, i just want your half. www.livejournal.com/~brni ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 17:48:09 -0500 From: "R. N. Dominick" Subject: Re: How much did you pay for Ariel ? I'm in Louisville, looking for an apartment. fleur's copy of Aerial arrived from the Sony music store last week, but I need my own, right? I paid $14.99 at an amazing indie record store called Ear Xtasy... boy, if I live anywhere near there, I'm going to be in trouble... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 14:54:36 -0800 (PST) From: alan Subject: Re: How much did you pay for Ariel ? On Wed, 9 Nov 2005, R. N. Dominick wrote: > I'm in Louisville, looking for an apartment. fleur's copy of Aerial > arrived from the Sony music store last week, but I need my own, right? > I paid $14.99 at an amazing indie record store called Ear Xtasy... > boy, if I live anywhere near there, I'm going to be in trouble... I paid $17.99 for mine at Borders. (And yes, I did listen to it before that. I have a reputation to maintain. ]:> ) - -- "Invoking the supernatural can explain anything, and hence explains nothing." - University of Utah bioengineering professor Gregory Clark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 10:00:44 +1050 From: "afries@internode.on.net" Subject: Editing Aerial Imagine you've been given the tapes that made "Aerial" and the job of turning them into a record. What would you do? Perhaps your answer is "I'd leave it exactly as it is!" :) Not me, however - I would pick up my scissors and set to work: My vision of Aerial is just one CD, and it starts with 'How to be invisible' - it's an easy, bouncy track that makes a great opening. "King of the mountain', 'Pi' and 'Bertie' are gone - 'King', because we already heard it as the single, and while I liked it well enough, I don't really feel it needs to be repeated. 'Pi' gets the chop because it's boring (and she can't even get the digits right?!? What's up with that?), and 'Bertie', because it's unbearably cloying. Some personal things should remain personal... 'Mrs Bartolozzi' goes too, because while musically OK, I just don't think the world needs an ode to washing machines - a couple of 'nudge, nudge, wink, wink' lines won't save it from my scissors! 'Joanni' goes too - without prejudice. Nothing wrong with it, but it is *such* a Tori Amos song! OK then - the second track on my record: "Coral Room". That one is lovely and fully deserves a spot. There is one part where it sounds totally like something taken from one of "My Friend The Chocolate Cake" albums, which is funny because Kate is quite different from David Bridie, but something about the melody and the way she sings "There were hundreds of people living here.... " makes it a definite MFTCC moment. Pure coincidence, obviously. Anyway, this is one track I really like. "Prelude" goes, since it serves no particular purpose that I can see. As it is, "Prologue" stands at over five minutes, but in my opinion it only has enough substance for about two; after some editing it will become the new prelude. "Architect's Dream" stays, but with just a bit of editing to tighten it up. Somewhere around 4 minutes instead of the current 4:50 should do it. "Painter's Link" is a pure filler, which is OK for a double album. But since my goal is to remove all filling, out it goes. "Sunset" is great - jazzy bass, love the way this song bops merrily along... It can stay :) "Aerial Tal"... well, you know what I'm going to say, don't you? Chop-chop... "Somewhere in between" is exactly as the title suggests. Too long, too little. Not that bad, but not needed. "Nocturn"... among these eight minutes thirty seconds there is around four minutes of great song. Editing might bring it out. "Aerial" - out of its seven minutes and fifty seconds I really enjoy only about 2 minutes and half, the 'guitar bit'. Taken out, it could stand on its own as a kind of a closer. How about that? I managed to reduce "Aerial", the double album, to "Aerial" - EP. :) I understand I completely messed up the flow and the vision of this album, such as it was. But honestly, I would enjoy "my" version more. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:21:01 -0500 (EST) From: Bernie Mojzes Subject: Re: comeback wishes I think for me the person I'd like to see back making music would be Leslie Langston (original bass player for Throwing Muses). I've been listening to a lot of their stuff lately, and am wholly taken with her playing. A Thelonius Monk comeback would be great, but sorta creepy. All things considered. Bernie while extremely confused, you said: > [anna maria "stjdrnell"]: > > > > Who else could come back? Danielle Dax? (oh please, please); > > Dalbello(please with lots of sugar on top) > > oh yes, but my #1 wish is Beth Sorrentino (or the whole of "Suddenly, > Tammy!"). I just love her piano and quirky girlish voice. too bad > she's given it up. > > of course I wish Poe would get her legal entanglements sorted, too, > but I think that's just a question of time. > - -- brni i don't want the world, i just want your half. www.livejournal.com/~brni ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 15:19:33 -0500 From: Scott Parkerson Subject: Re: Aerial, too On 11/9/05, Troy J Shadbolt wrote: > and for the totally geeks, here's KaTe's version of PI. I haven't looked it up > to see if it's correct past the 8th digit (the spaces are as printed in the > lyrics, which match pauses). 3.1415926535 897932 3846 264 338 3279 50288419 > 716939937510 582319749 44 59230781 6406286208 821 4808651 32 82306647 > 0938446095 505 8223 According to the version of Pi on http://www.joyofpi.com/pi.html, it's mostly right, but there's a big chunk missing, and one incorrect digit. Transcription error, perhaps? Here's the Kate's version, with missing or corrected digits in brackets. 3.1415926535 897932 3846 264 338 3279 50288419 716939937510 5823[0]9749 44 59230781 64062862087 [9986280348253421170679] 821 4808651 32 82306647 0938446095 505 8223 Perhaps some of the digits were edited out for brevity. ;) - --sgp who, incidentally, loves this song (and _Aerial_) - -- scott parkerson. geek, erstwhile prophet and fool. just a cog in the machinery: http://www.smerpology.org/sprocket/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 16:44:30 -0800 From: Deb Subject: Re: How much did you pay for Ariel ? At 08:41 PM 11/08/2005, mrl220 wrote: > > I paid $14.99 at Best Buy. It's 14.99 at Tower Records, every state that has Tower. - -- Deb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 21:05:44 -0500 From: Scott Parkerson Subject: Re: Editing Aerial On 11/9/05, afries@internode.on.net wrote: > How about that? I managed to reduce "Aerial", the double > album, to "Aerial" - EP. :) > > I understand I completely messed up the flow and the vision > of this album, such as it was. But honestly, I would enjoy > "my" version more. Such is the beauty of iTunes. As for me, I'm going to keep my version unmolested, thankyouverymuch. - --sgp - -- scott parkerson. geek, erstwhile prophet and fool. just a cog in the machinery: http://www.smerpology.org/sprocket/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 20:28:47 -0800 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: How much did you pay for Ariel ? mrl220 wrote: >Well, after looking around a little I paid $14.99 at Best Buy. >It was the best deal around. Cheaper that Borders and B&N. > > Mine will be $13.20 on Friday, since this is the weekend when our store employees get a 40% discount on CDs. Nyah, nyah :-) On the other hand, I'm also fixin' to binge out on CDs by Isaac Hayes, Budd/Eno, Matt Haimovitz, Messiaen, and others, so I will still feel the wrath of EWS. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 22:39:37 -0800 (PST) From: "Xenu's Sister" Subject: Re: Editing Aerial - --- "afries@internode.on.net" wrote: > Imagine you've been given the tapes that made "Aerial" and > the job of turning them into a record. What would you do? > Perhaps your answer is "I'd leave it exactly as it is!" :) Right. I'd leave it the fuck alone. I couldn't even finish your post. Pi and Mrs. B, being two of my favorite songs on the album, I was getting more and more horrified by the word. I wish I hadn't read what I did. I've avoided reading most of the Aerial posts (here and elsewhere) because I don't want anyone else's vision to, even slightly, affect my own until I've listened to the album so many times, it's part of my DNA. Your Subject Line reeled me in because for some reason I thought it had something to do with the upcoming DVD. I don't know why. Shame on me. Goddess save me from people who think they're smarter than Kate Bush. I can't imagine what it must feel like being that arrogant. Vickie - -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Music, all I hear is music, guaranteed to please... - -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ - -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V11 #307 ***************************