From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V11 #223 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Thursday, August 18 2005 Volume 11 : Number 223 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: Nerina Pallot [Ellen Rawson ] NerinaPallotluniktoriwendyrule [gordodo@optonline.net] RE: Nerina Pallot ["=?iso-8859-1?Q?Collected=20Sounds?=" <2345@collecteds] RE: Nerina Pallot ["=?iso-8859-1?Q?Collected=20Sounds?=" <2345@collecteds] Re: Nerina Pallot ["Xenu's Sister" ] Re: Nerina Pallot [Doug ] Re: Nerina Pallot ["Xenu's Sister" ] Re: Nerina Pallot [Sander ] Re: Nerina Pallot [Sue Trowbridge ] Re:last night, Warsaw Village!!! WOW, tonight in SC, this weekend in LA, don't miss it [Cyoakha ] Re: 2 thumbs up: sarah blasko and the new heather nova [gordodo@optonline] Flash (Re: Nerina Pallot ["Xenu's Sister" ] Re: 2 thumbs up: sarah blasko and the new heather nova [Angie ] Re: Nerina Pallot ["Xenu's Sister" ] Re[2]: Nerina Pallot [raven@igc.org] Re: 2 thumbs up: sarah blasko and the new heather nova [andrew fries ] Re: Nerina Pallot [raven@igc.org] Re: Flash (Re: Nerina Pallot [Sander ] Re: Nerina Pallot [Nadyne Mielke ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:50:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Ellen Rawson Subject: RE: Nerina Pallot - --- Collected Sounds <2345@collectedsounds.com> wrote: > I will second, or third the recommendation for > Nerina. For what it's worth, > I don't think she sounds like Tori at all. It never > entered my mind. I think > she's quite unique. You might if you hear her play solo with her piano. :) Once I had the CD (purchased at the Suzanne Vega gig, autographed by a Nerina who seemed slightly overwhelmed by all of the people buying her CD), I heard more of her sound with her band. She sounds very different solo, I think, and the Tori comparison really came across on "Idaho" just with piano and vocal. I will be writing up the review of that show and the solo show for another website one of these centuries. Nerina was the find of the Suzanne Vega gig. Vega herself was in fine shape (has anyone else noticed that she seems more comfortable performing -- better at the between-song patter, etc. now as opposed to twenty years ago?), but Pallot was the find. Ellen "Literature stops in 1100. After that, it's just books." - -- JRR Tolkien ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:41:41 -0400 From: gordodo@optonline.net Subject: NerinaPallotluniktoriwendyrule i dont really get any tori comparisons listening to nerina... and speaking of vocalists from the chimera album, Jael (from Lunik) is amazing...there have been two new Lunik albums released in the past year (one live, one studio) and both are incredible :) also just got back from seeing tori last night....i was thrilled that she dipped heavily into her back catalog, pulling out Mary, Take to The Sky, Yes Anastasia, Bells for Her, Winter, Icicle, Caught a Lite Sneeze, plus she did my two favorites off the new album Goodbye Pisces and the Beekeeper...and this time i wasnt in the next to last row of the balcony - whoowhoo :) -jason np Wendy Rule - the jazz album (cant remember the name of the album) - just came in the mail yesterday- simply stunning - ----- Original Message ----- From: Angie Date: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 10:15 pm Subject: RE: Nerina Pallot > Nerina also does a song for Delerium - "Truly" - that was released > as a > single. It's from their album "Chimera". The song is a must-hear > as well. :) > > Angie > > > At 10:07 PM 16/08/2005, you wrote: > >I will second, or third the recommendation for Nerina. For what > it's worth, > >I don't think she sounds like Tori at all. It never entered my > mind. I think > >she's quite unique. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:43:12 +0000 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Collected=20Sounds?=" <2345@collectedsounds.com> Subject: RE: Nerina Pallot ~Amy Lotsberg www.collectedsounds.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:46:01 +0000 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Collected=20Sounds?=" <2345@collectedsounds.com> Subject: RE: Nerina Pallot Sorry about that last one...I am working online (webmail) instead of on Outlook and the save and send are RIGHT next to each other on this program! Ooops! Anyway... > > I don't think she sounds like Tori at all. It never > > entered my mind. I think > > she's quite unique. Ellen wrote: > > You might if you hear her play solo with her piano. :) What I was gonna say is....I wish I could! I would love to hear her live! I will reserve anymore judgement on the comparison until I do. Ellen, if you'd like me to post your review on Collected Sounds once it's written I'd be more than happy to! Just let me know! ~Amy Lotsberg www.collectedsounds.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:59:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "Xenu's Sister" Subject: Re: Nerina Pallot - --- Todd Pierce wrote: > Go to http://www.nerinapallot.com and listen to the > tracks on the audio page - especially Idaho, or > Halfway Home, or Everybody's Gone to War. It's a damned shame about her Inaccessible web site. Lots of potential fans have been/are/will be locked out. I realize the purpose of an artist's web site isn't to cater to fans, but rather to add to resume hits for web designers, but it's getting downright ridiculous. So many, too many, of the major up-n-coming young singers have web sites that purposefully, willfully, keep out fans or potential fans. It's just not right. Vickie - -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Music, all I hear is music, guaranteed to please... - -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ - -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:10:49 -0500 From: Doug Subject: Re: Nerina Pallot Yep...got to the opening page and decided she wasn't worth the effort required to get her site to display correctly in my browser. Her loss. - --Doug On 8/17/05, Xenu's Sister wrote: > It's a damned shame about her Inaccessible web site. > Lots of potential fans have been/are/will be locked out. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:15:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Xenu's Sister" Subject: Re: Nerina Pallot Thank you thank you thank you thank you THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!! - --- Doug wrote: > Yep...got to the opening page and decided she wasn't > worth the effort required to get her site to display > correctly in my browser. Her loss. > > --Doug > > On 8/17/05, Xenu's Sister wrote: > > It's a damned shame about her Inaccessible web site. > > Lots of potential fans have been/are/will be locked out. > - -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Music, all I hear is music, guaranteed to please... - -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ - -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:31:06 -0500 From: Sander Subject: Re: Nerina Pallot Doug wrote: > Yep...got to the opening page and decided she wasn't worth the effort > required to get her site to display correctly in my browser. Her > loss. The comments here made me think she might be worth _some_ effort, so I tried googling site:www.nerinapallot.com (four hits, all devoid of juicy keywords or any other content - just that should be enough incentive for people to stop having all-flash websites) and even guessing /mp3/ /audio/ /music/ directories before coming to the same conclusion. Yet another minute of my life wasted by flash. Sander ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:57:10 -0700 From: Sue Trowbridge Subject: Re: Nerina Pallot As a web designer, I occasionally worry about the fact that I don't use flash -- like, are my web sites hopelessly stuck in the '90s? I keep thinking that I should take a flash class & finally shell out the $$$ to buy it. So, I appreciate all of the anti-flash sentiment on this list; it convinces me that my instincts are correct, and I should continue to shun it. Plus, it's nice to get comments like "thank you for creating an accessible site" -- I know Neal has gotten a couple e-mails to that effect about the site I made for him ( http://www.abqmusic.com/ ). - --Sue > Doug wrote: > > Yep...got to the opening page and decided she wasn't worth the effort > > required to get her site to display correctly in my browser. Her > > loss. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:09:11 -0700 From: Cyoakha Subject: Re:last night, Warsaw Village!!! WOW, tonight in SC, this weekend in LA, don't miss it anyone else see Warsaw Village last night in Oakland???WOW, they were simple amazing, raw, wild, beautiful, truly making new music while using the old...GREAT voice on the lead girl, low and warm and wild...i was blown away and I never get blown away....any ectos in santa cruz or la, they are in Santa Cruz tonight, I HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend them to anyone who loves, world, ecto, strings, polish and eastern music, bulgarian harmonies, prog, please go see them tonight in santa cruz, first time touring california...then they are in LA this weekend! Don't miss them. I am a musician and a singer, a GOOD one, picky about vocals and lyrics, for 13 years, 10 of that in world, SO IT TAKES A LOT, a whole hell of a lot to impress me and they had my jaw dropped for two hours. only 4 shows in US!!! 16.08 - Oakland, CA - Kitka 17.08 - Santa Cruz, CA - Kuumbwa Jazz Club 18.08 - Los Angeles, CA - Skirball Cultural Center 19.08 - Los Angeles, CA - Grand Performances http://www.warsawvillageband.net/Home.html cyoakha grace o'manion, land of the blind, druid sisters tea party, azigza, black orchid, big city orchestra ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 21:17:13 +0000 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Collected=20Sounds?=" <2345@collectedsounds.com> Subject: Re: Nerina Pallot I hate flash too and as I web designer don't use it. I don't know it, and I don't want to. But I am not going to refuse to visit a site that has it. If you want to make a difference, email her and tell her you think she should have an HTML option (She should, everyone should). But I don't think we need to get all mean about it. "Her loss"? Maybe so, but in my opinion, it's yours as well if you refuse to visit. *shrug* but it's your choice. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:29:39 +1000 From: andrew fries Subject: Re: 2 thumbs up: sarah blasko On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:24:29 -0500 "Collected Sounds" <2345@collectedsounds.com> wrote: > This is an amazingly strong debut CD. In fact when I first heard > someone mention this CD, I was sure she'd been around for a while and > when I listened was even more sure. Then later found out this is her > first release. It is her first full-length CD release, but she *has* been around for a while. She released an EP previously, "Prelusive" in 2002. And before then she used to front a band called "Acquiesce" who released their EP, "Aa is for acquiesce" in 1999. Don't bother looking for these in your local shops, the odds of finding them are probably about as good as winning lotto... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:51:09 -0400 From: gordodo@optonline.net Subject: Re: 2 thumbs up: sarah blasko and the new heather nova bah. the internet is lotto. i ordered prelusive at the same time i ordered her album :) of course i spent a helluva lot more for it now that it is on sale domestically for 9.99 at barnes and noble... i was just streaming heather nova's new one which is available for listening on v2's scandinavian site :) http://se.v2music.com/site/product.asp?ID=1412 - -jason ps no flash present :) - ----- Original Message ----- From: andrew fries Date: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 5:29 pm Subject: Re: 2 thumbs up: sarah blasko > On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:24:29 -0500 > "Collected Sounds" <2345@collectedsounds.com> wrote: > > > This is an amazingly strong debut CD. In fact when I first heard > > someone mention this CD, I was sure she'd been around for a > while and > > when I listened was even more sure. Then later found out this is her > > first release. > > It is her first full-length CD release, but she *has* been around > for a > while. She released an EP previously, "Prelusive" in 2002. And before > then she used to front a band called "Acquiesce" who released > their EP, > "Aa is for acquiesce" in 1999. Don't bother looking for these in your > local shops, the odds of finding them are probably about as good as > winning lotto... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 15:01:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "Xenu's Sister" Subject: Flash (Re: Nerina Pallot Good for you and your stance Sue. You have the right idea, wanting to make web sites accessible. There's nothing wrong with Flash as a highlight for those site visitors who have it and can appreciate it, as long as it doesn't take the place of actual web content. Any actual text content in Flash should also be put into, well, actual text available to people who don't have Flash. People who put *all* the content into Flash/javascript and then have the nerve to charge good money for screwing over their clients oughta be run out of the business. I used to complain directly to the artists, but that does no good. These artists trust their record companies and the design firms they hire. One artist from Australian I wrote to actually wrote back and said thanks for the tip, but they didn't have the money to fix their site. I wrote a long letter detailing how, if they had someone in the band good at standing up for what's right, to DEMAND that the web design company fix the web site. It went something like this... 1. Artist/band wants a web presence. This assumes... 2. Artist/band wants a web presence for the benefit of their *fans* or potential fans, not for the benefit of the web designer's resume. 3. Artist/band (or record company) hires web designer to design a web site to give artist/band a web presence for the benefit of the fans or any potential fans interested in learning more about the artist/band. 4. Web designer builds a web site using only Flash/Javascript thereby shutting out a percentage of the fans. This results in... 5. A nice resume page for the web designer; money being paid to the web designer for a job not done; and a percentage of unhappy fans of the artist/band. Since the web designer did NOT do the job they were paid to do, they owe the artist/band more time and work to finish the original objective. No one else seems to see it that way. Why not? Why have web designers taken over the web at the expense of the people who use the web, and why are so very few people willing to say anything? If more fans would say something to these artists, the artists might begin to stand up for their fans instead of bow to the web desingers' wishes. That's tricky though, because most of these sites don't even offer the option of finding someone to write to and complain, not if you don't have Flash and can't get in to try and find an address. I've heard "Well, no one's complained" and I say "Well duh, how are they supposed to complain when they can't even get in to find an address?" Most people who can't get in will just quietly go away without saying anything. How many besides Doug and Sander couldn't get into Pallot's web site and just went away without saying anything (not just here on ecto)? Would Doug and Sander have said anything to anyone if this thread hadn't taken the turn it did? Is feeding the ego of a smug, well-paid "web designer" who didn't do what they were paid to do worth turning away even ONE fan/potential fan? It would seem so. Argh. Vickie - -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Music, all I hear is music, guaranteed to please... - -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ - -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:02:12 -0400 From: Angie Subject: Re: 2 thumbs up: sarah blasko and the new heather nova Heather's new one is her best yet. Her voice is sheer beauty - I keep forgetting how good her voice really is. Her cover of "Wicked Game" is STUNNING, even if the original annoys me. ;) At 05:51 PM 17/08/2005, you wrote: >bah. > >the internet is lotto. > >i ordered prelusive at the same time i ordered her album :) > >of course i spent a helluva lot more for it now that it is on sale >domestically for 9.99 at barnes and noble... > >i was just streaming heather nova's new one which is available for >listening on v2's scandinavian site :) >http://se.v2music.com/site/product.asp?ID=1412 > >-jason > >ps no flash present :) > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: andrew fries >Date: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 5:29 pm >Subject: Re: 2 thumbs up: sarah blasko > > > On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:24:29 -0500 > > "Collected Sounds" <2345@collectedsounds.com> wrote: > > > > > This is an amazingly strong debut CD. In fact when I first heard > > > someone mention this CD, I was sure she'd been around for a > > while and > > > when I listened was even more sure. Then later found out this is her > > > first release. > > > > It is her first full-length CD release, but she *has* been around > > for a > > while. She released an EP previously, "Prelusive" in 2002. And before > > then she used to front a band called "Acquiesce" who released > > their EP, > > "Aa is for acquiesce" in 1999. Don't bother looking for these in your > > local shops, the odds of finding them are probably about as good as > > winning lotto... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:21:00 +1000 From: andrew fries Subject: Re: Nerina Pallot On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:57:10 -0700 Sue Trowbridge wrote: > As a web designer, I occasionally worry about the fact that I don't > use flash -- like, are my web sites hopelessly stuck in the '90s? I > keep thinking that I should take a flash class & finally shell out the > $$$ to buy it. So, I appreciate all of the anti-flash sentiment on > this list; it convinces me that my instincts are correct, and I should > continue to shun it. I have often complained about flash-only sites, but I want to stress it is the "-only" part that upsets me. I have no problem with flash as such - it does offer some nice opportunities for the designer to be creative, and it can create interesting browsing experience for the user. So I wouldn't advise to shun flash, exactly - it might be nothing more than icing on the cake, but there is nothing wrong with a bit of cake, with lots of icing... mmm... cake... However, there is everything wrong with not providing alternative, non- flash version, if you do decide to use it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 15:28:51 -0700 (PDT) From: "Xenu's Sister" Subject: Re: Nerina Pallot - --- Collected Sounds <2345@collectedsounds.com> wrote: > I hate flash too and as I web designer don't use it. I don't > know it, and I don't want to. Good for you. I like your site and how it's structured. > But I am not going to refuse to visit a site that has > it. If you want to make a difference, email her and > tell her you think she should have an HTML option (She > should, everyone should). The sad thing is that visitors shouldn't have to do anything special to see a web site (properly-designed web sites degrade gracefully) and they sure shouldn't have to go out of their way to complain about not being able to access the site. But that's what it's going to take, more people speaking up. Since I do have access to Nina's site, I held my nose long enough to go there and find a contact. Guess what? She has a My Space presence! http://www.myspace.com/nerinapallot > But I don't think we need to get all mean about it. I don't think anyone's being mean to her, but I personally hate her stupid web site. The thing is, for a lot of people, it's HER stupid web site. People being turned away are going to remember that it was HER web site that turned them away, not the record company, not the design firm, HER. That's not fair but it isn't as if the design companies are going to put a notice up saying, "hey, if you're a loser who doesn't have Flash it's not the artist's fault you can't get in, it's all our fault. We could let you in if we wanted to, but we don't so fuck off." She bears responsibility even if she doesn't know anything at all about it. That's not mean, that's just plain fact. > "Her loss"? Maybe so, but in my opinion, it's yours as well if > you refuse to visit. *shrug* but it's your choice. If he, or someone else *CAN'T* visit, it's her loss of a potential fan and word-of-mouth voice. But, hey, *shrug*, who cares about fans? You do, but your attitude is exactly what the web designers are counting on to continue ripping off artists and denying fans access. Vickie - -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Music, all I hear is music, guaranteed to please... - -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ - -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 15:35:31 -0700 From: raven@igc.org Subject: Re[2]: Nerina Pallot At 09:59 AM 08/17/2005, Xenu's Sister wrote: > It's a damned shame about her Inaccessible web site. > Lots of potential fans have been/are/will be locked out. For those interested: 1. Not only does the site use Flash, but it uses Pop-Ups (shudder), something most of us prohibit. But if you use a Netscape/Mozilla/Firefox browser, you can allow Pop-Ups for a particular site only, when you do this her site is not too bad, it's much better than some Flash sites I've seen... but turn off the music (unless you want it), otherwise you'll automatically get it, no matter what you're already listening to (grrrr). If you are not familiar with Netscape/Mozilla/Firefox since they started to use the Gecko rendering engine, read more at (http://www.geocities.com/bab_news/babcoming.html#browser_talk) If you can't see her webpage, there are other options: 2. There is a simple "unofficial" HTML fan site at (http://www.geocities.com/nerinapallotrocks/) 3. Nerina Pallot is on MySpace at (http://www.myspace.com/nerinapallot) - -- John http://www.myspace.com/johnny_raven ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:54:19 +1000 From: andrew fries Subject: Re: 2 thumbs up: sarah blasko and the new heather nova On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:02:12 -0400 Angie wrote: > Heather's new one is her best yet. Her voice is sheer beauty - I keep > forgetting how good her voice really is. Better than "Glowstars" and "Blow" - one of my top-10 favourite records ever? I'll have to check it out then! > >i was just streaming heather nova's new one which is available for > >listening on v2's scandinavian site :) > >http://se.v2music.com/site/product.asp?ID=1412 Her entry on that site states that Oyster was her debut album. In fact it was her third, after Glowstars and Blow... but as far as I'm concerned, "Oyster" marked the beginning of her descent from being amazing to merely producing rather bland, radio-friendly pop it seems she's been turning out ever since. Sigh... she still has a lot of credit with me though, thanks to "Blow". Which came out in 1993... I'm nothing if not loyal. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:06:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Bernie Mojzes Subject: Re: Flash (Re: Nerina Pallot well, you've got a couple things happening. there's a lot of people out there who have not (ever) experienced the internet the way we have (boggling at the idea of a *thousand* newsgroups, painfully downloading 16kbyte pictures of kate bush over 1200baud modems because there's no way we could ever DREAM of being rich enough to own a scanner of our own while we prayed that line noise wouldn't kick us offline before the the thing finished downloading... and they forget that for a lot of people who either don't have the cash for broadband, or who live in areas where it just isn't available, and who are stuck with dialup of varying quality. memory of what tech was available just 5 years ago is, well, staggaringly poor, even for those who weren't children at the time. the problem here is that the web designers are trying to push for the max that the medium will handle - it looks good for them, and it looks good for their customers. and the customers want something that is cool, that will inspire people to forward the URL around, and will bring people back again and again. and that's what the focus is. and nobody thinks to say "oh, and it needs to be lynx friendly." because chances are the artists don't even know to request that in the first place, and have no clue what it means. and they also don't understand that this also means that it is accessible to the visually impaired, because, again, it ain't on their radar. but i think that will change as the first generation of internet geeks starts to get more and more long-toothed and short-sighted. brni On Wed, 17 Aug 2005, Xenu's Sister wrote: > Good for you and your stance Sue. You have the right > idea, wanting to make web sites accessible. > > There's nothing wrong with Flash as a highlight for > those site visitors who have it and can appreciate > it, as long as it doesn't take the place of actual > web content. Any actual text content in Flash should > also be put into, well, actual text available to > people who don't have Flash. People who put *all* > the content into Flash/javascript and then have > the nerve to charge good money for screwing over > their clients oughta be run out of the business. > > I used to complain directly to the artists, but > that does no good. These artists trust their > record companies and the design firms they hire. > One artist from Australian I wrote to actually > wrote back and said thanks for the tip, but they > didn't have the money to fix their site. I wrote > a long letter detailing how, if they had someone > in the band good at standing up for what's right, > to DEMAND that the web design company fix the web site. > > It went something like this... > > 1. Artist/band wants a web presence. This assumes... > > 2. Artist/band wants a web presence for the benefit > of their *fans* or potential fans, not for the benefit > of the web designer's resume. > > 3. Artist/band (or record company) hires web designer > to design a web site to give artist/band a web presence > for the benefit of the fans or any potential fans > interested in learning more about the artist/band. > > 4. Web designer builds a web site using only > Flash/Javascript thereby shutting out a percentage > of the fans. This results in... > > 5. A nice resume page for the web designer; money > being paid to the web designer for a job not done; > and a percentage of unhappy fans of the artist/band. > > Since the web designer did NOT do the job they were > paid to do, they owe the artist/band more time and > work to finish the original objective. > > No one else seems to see it that way. Why not? Why > have web designers taken over the web at the expense > of the people who use the web, and why are so very > few people willing to say anything? If more fans > would say something to these artists, the artists > might begin to stand up for their fans instead of > bow to the web desingers' wishes. That's tricky > though, because most of these sites don't even offer > the option of finding someone to write to and complain, > not if you don't have Flash and can't get in to try > and find an address. I've heard "Well, no one's > complained" and I say "Well duh, how are they > supposed to complain when they can't even get in > to find an address?" Most people who can't get in > will just quietly go away without saying anything. > > How many besides Doug and Sander couldn't get into > Pallot's web site and just went away without saying > anything (not just here on ecto)? Would Doug and > Sander have said anything to anyone if this thread > hadn't taken the turn it did? > > Is feeding the ego of a smug, well-paid "web designer" > who didn't do what they were paid to do worth turning > away even ONE fan/potential fan? It would seem so. > > Argh. > > Vickie > > > > > -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > Music, all I hear is music, guaranteed to please... > > -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > - -- brni i don't want the world, i just want your half. www.livejournal.com/~brni ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:56:37 -0700 From: raven@igc.org Subject: Re: Nerina Pallot At 12:57 PM 08/17/2005, Sue Trowbridge wrote: > As a web designer, I occasionally worry about the fact that > I don't use flash -- like, are my web sites hopelessly stuck > in the '90s? Add another person who hates Flash! I avoid it, and thank the artists who, if they are using Flash, also offer an HTML alternative site to avoid the Flash version. For awhile Ani DiFranco offered both HTML and Flash, but she has given up on the Flash version, sticking the plain HTML. - -- John ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:35:21 -0500 From: Sander Subject: Re: Flash (Re: Nerina Pallot Xenu's Sister wrote: > Is feeding the ego of a smug, well-paid "web designer" > who didn't do what they were paid to do worth turning > away even ONE fan/potential fan? As a webdeveloper who's done quite a lot of contract work (and thus seen all kinds of webdesign companies from the inside, having all manner of clients), I have to say that the most common experience is for _clients_ to ask for the use of flash. Yes, there are always webdesigners who've specialized in Flash and try to push clients to it (or bedazzle clients with it in proposals to get the job), but overall - if flash is used - it's because of a direct request from the client. (Of course the client will be the record company, or the marketing firm hired by them, or... and not the artist.) Even designers/developers who are aware enough of the issues to point out the problems to clients, won't quickly go against the wishes of the people paying the bills, and unfortunately very few are aware that they can nest alternative (accessible) content inside the flash object, providing decent fallback. (This is hard to learn, as hardly any sites give advice for how to do it, and it's not obvious that you have to leave out the codebase attribute for it to have much positive effect.) Education is needed everywhere. There are way too many parties still trapped in the 90s - completely unaware of standards-compliant and accessible techniques - for things to get better anytime soon. Worse, as people often want a similar website to competitors, certain types of websites (like say, those for movie previews, and - unfortunately - musicians), are likely to remain stuck for a long time. I do what little I can - most noticeably not linking to any artists with flash-only websites, not giving them the benefit of my pagerank - but other than that I won't waste energy worrying about it, and hope that in the long run, the 5-10% visitors who they're turning away will often enough mean the difference between success and failure that evolution will take care of the rest. (*g* Not very realistic, but at least I know that there are very very few artists which such websites that I ever recommend to my friends.) Cheers, Sander ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:29:22 -0700 From: Nadyne Mielke Subject: Re: Nerina Pallot On 17 Aug 2005, at 15:28, Xenu's Sister wrote: [snip] > If he, or someone else *CAN'T* visit, it's her loss of a > potential fan and word-of-mouth voice. But, hey, *shrug*, > who cares about fans? You do, but your attitude is exactly > what the web designers are counting on to continue ripping > off artists and denying fans access. I think that's overly harsh, Vickie. I highly doubt that it's a web designer rubbing their hands gleefully and saying to themselves, 'let's rip off the artist! let's make sure no-one can get to the site!' I think that there are a few options for what's happening with the design of such sites: 1. They're using a technology that they don't understand fully. They don't realise that not everyone has a Flash plug-in. They don't realise that using a lot of Flash makes it hard to access the site if you're on dial-up. And they forget that just because they have broadband doesn't mean everyone else does. (I think the latest stats that I saw said that about 28% of US Internet users are on broadband.) They don't realise that not everyone is using the latest update of Internet Explorer (or, for that matter, that anyone is using anything aside from IE on a Windows box). They have no idea what a Flash website looks like if you're visually-impaired and using a screen reader. 2. The designer made a design decision that they're only going to support a specific technology. This decision was made because resources are limited (always true), and because they've got a significant ain't-it-cool factor going on. (This is often an extension of the above.) (Variant of (2): The record company says that the website will be done like this, and the artist doesn't want to fight with the record company, or they don't know enough to realise that there are significant issues with Flash.) 3. The artist has seen what's possible with Flash, and they're so wowed by the ain't-it-cool factor that they ask for it. The designer, who knows which side his/her bread is buttered on, doesn't say anything. /nm ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V11 #223 ***************************