From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V11 #85 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Monday, March 28 2005 Volume 11 : Number 085 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Today's your birthday, friend... [Mike Matthews ] CD Baby [Tim Cook ] RE: CD Baby ["Xenu's Sister" ] Re: CD Baby [robert bristow-johnson ] Re: CD Baby [dmw ] RE: CD Baby ["Collected Sounds" <2345@collectedsounds.com>] RE: CD Baby ["Xenu's Sister" ] Re: CD Baby [Greg Bossert ] RE: CD Baby ["Collected Sounds" <2345@collectedsounds.com>] Re: thanks from an artist, and CD Baby [Cyoakha ] Taking a break ["Xenu's Sister" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 03:00:05 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Matthews Subject: Today's your birthday, friend... i*i*i*i*i*i i*i*i*i*i*i *************** *****HAPPY********* **************BIRTHDAY********* *************************************************** *************************************************************************** ********************** Tom Proven (no Email address) ********************** *************************************************************************** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Tom Proven Sat March 27 1971 Eat at Joe's Jennifer Albert Wed March 30 1966 Aries (w/Cancer rising!:) Warpaint Mon April 01 1991 Brilliant! Michael Pearce Wed April 03 1946 Pegasus Michael E. Bravo Mon April 05 1971 Dandelion Wine Brion McIntosh Sun April 06 1958 Aries Marcel Kshensky Thu April 06 1950 Aries Bill Mazur Mon April 06 1953 Aries Sun/Cancer Rising David Dixon Tue April 07 1970 Aries Heidi Heller Mon April 08 1974 Aries Jill Hughes Sat April 09 1955 Aries Klaus Kluge Sun April 10 1960 Unicorn Steve VanDevender Sun April 10 1966 Racer Art Liestman Fri April 10 1953 Repeat Stephen Golden Sat April 10 1971 Jokey Michael Bowman Wed April 11 1962 Aries Wolfgang Ullwer Fri April 11 1969 Widder Janet Kirsch Thu April 11 1974 Aries Jerry Tue April 13 1971 Aries Stuart Myerburg Mon April 14 1969 Aries T-Bone Wed April 15 1992 happy cat Jeff Hanson Sat April 16 1966 Aries Michael Klouda Mon April 17 1967 Aries Noe Venable Tue April 20 1976 Aries Harry Foster Sat April 21 1956 NiceGuy Kjetil Torgrim Homme Thu April 23 1970 Taurus Jeff Burka Thu April 24 1969 GoFlyAKite Christine Waite Tue April 25 1972 Taurus Matt Adams Thu April 26 1962 Taurus - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 12:30:12 +0100 From: Tim Cook Subject: CD Baby I'm a huge CD Baby fan. There's nowhere else like it on the web that you can pick up so much good music you can't get anywhere else. The fact that they ship worldwide and will remove the CDs from the jewel cases (putting the CD in a protective paper sleeve) means that the postage is reasonable and (more importantly) the package slips through my letterbox without having to go down the post office and pick it up. I nearly always end up buying more CDs than I intend so its got to be good for the artists who sign up to CDBaby. Just because the guy that owns CDBaby loves music doesn't mean that he should do it for free. I've known artists in the UK that get charged more that #4 a CD for someone to sell it for them. Thats nearly twice as much. Personally I don't think $4 per CD is outrageous. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 05:27:50 -0800 (PST) From: "Xenu's Sister" Subject: RE: CD Baby - --- Collected Sounds <2345@collectedsounds.com> wrote: > Hi all > > Vickie said this: > > >All these glowing reviews, and not one > >person has indicated they thought $4 per CD was outrageous, which > >is my first reaction. > > It's not outrageous, I don't think. Does anyone expect them to do it for > free? I mean, come on...it's a business. I never said that they should do it for free. > Why would they do it an not make > any money? Sometimes it costs $4 to ship something so they probably don't > make much of a profit on every single one. I understand that now. > I guess I'm a little sensitive because for five years now, I've been doing > free publicity for artists (through my site). I don't make a penny. I get a > thank you and that's it (oh I get a CD if the person wants it reviewed). > It's getting to the point where it's taking up so much of my time that I > can't afford to do it anymore. I still have to have a regular 40 hour a week > job. Then don't do it. Sheesh. If you can't promote artists you love simply because you love them, without bitching about it on an unrelated artist's mailing list, don't do it. > >How can indie artists afford to have someone else take > >so much of their money? > > How can anyone else be expected to work really hard on promoting someone and > get nothing in return? If anyone can point to where I said they should do it for nothing, I'll do 3 cartwheels while humming Britney Spears. And if you think I'm even *able* to do either of those things, you're nuts. I couldn't even do cartwheels when I was in junior high, and I don't even think I've ever *heard* a Britney Spears song, so go ahead, just try and make me. It seemed like a lot because I was clueless. I was clued in and changed my perspective. I understand now. I said this already. Deja Vu. I appreciate all the perspectives, *and I agree with them*, just don't go around saying I said something I didn't say. :wanders off grumbling: Vickie Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:23:38 -0500 From: robert bristow-johnson Subject: Re: CD Baby on 03/27/2005 06:30, Tim Cook at tim@palare.demon.co.uk wrote: > Just because the guy that owns CDBaby loves music doesn't mean that he > should do it for free. I've > known artists in the UK that get charged more that #4 a CD for someone > to sell it for them. Thats > nearly twice as much. Personally I don't think $4 per CD is outrageous. hey, let's give Vickie a break on this. i think she heard it the first 5 times and it need not be drilled into our consciousness (or subconscious) that $4 is not outrageous. - -- r b-j rbj@audioimagination.com "Imagination is more important than knowledge." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:53:58 -0500 (EST) From: dmw Subject: Re: CD Baby I think what's going on is a common problem with mailing lists, which can be very asyncrhonous. Most of us have seen Vickie responding to the input some of us had about distro costs, but I think some people are still responding to the original message without having seen all of the follow ups. .0 On Sun, 27 Mar 2005, robert bristow-johnson wrote: > on 03/27/2005 06:30, Tim Cook at tim@palare.demon.co.uk wrote: > > > Just because the guy that owns CDBaby loves music doesn't mean that he > > should do it for free. I've > > known artists in the UK that get charged more that #4 a CD for someone > > to sell it for them. Thats > > nearly twice as much. Personally I don't think $4 per CD is outrageous. > > hey, let's give Vickie a break on this. i think she heard it the first 5 > times and it need not be drilled into our consciousness (or subconscious) > that $4 is not outrageous. > > > the pathetic caverns: a zine - opinionated and eclectic reviews a studio - specializing in indie/rock/mobile/live/demo recording http://www.pathetic-caverns.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:53:54 -0600 From: "Collected Sounds" <2345@collectedsounds.com> Subject: RE: CD Baby >I think what's going on is a common problem with mailing lists, >which can be very asyncrhonous. Thank you. That is exactly what's going on in my case anyway. Messages do not always come in the order they are sent. I for one have not seen one email from Vickie other than her first one regarding CD Baby. I know from you guys and from her that she did indeed send one, but I didn't see it. Plus, I personally, was not intending to rip on Vickie (though I feel a bit like I got that in return) but to bring it to light for everyone here who might have believed that the $4 was too much. I know she's not the only person who thought/thinks this is true. But I only used her comments to make my comments on the issue in general because, well, she's the one who wrote them. Just trying to add another side of the equation. Let's not get mad at each other. I thought we were having a civil conversation. That was certainly my intent. ~Amy - -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecto@smoe.org [mailto:owner-ecto@smoe.org]On Behalf Of dmw Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 12:54 PM To: ecto@smoe.org Subject: Re: CD Baby I think what's going on is a common problem with mailing lists, which can be very asyncrhonous. Most of us have seen Vickie responding to the input some of us had about distro costs, but I think some people are still responding to the original message without having seen all of the follow ups. .0 On Sun, 27 Mar 2005, robert bristow-johnson wrote: > on 03/27/2005 06:30, Tim Cook at tim@palare.demon.co.uk wrote: > > > Just because the guy that owns CDBaby loves music doesn't mean that he > > should do it for free. I've > > known artists in the UK that get charged more that #4 a CD for someone > > to sell it for them. Thats > > nearly twice as much. Personally I don't think $4 per CD is outrageous. > > hey, let's give Vickie a break on this. i think she heard it the first 5 > times and it need not be drilled into our consciousness (or subconscious) > that $4 is not outrageous. > > > the pathetic caverns: a zine - opinionated and eclectic reviews a studio - specializing in indie/rock/mobile/live/demo recording http://www.pathetic-caverns.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:27:21 -0800 (PST) From: "Xenu's Sister" Subject: RE: CD Baby - --- Collected Sounds <2345@collectedsounds.com> wrote: > Plus, I personally, was not intending to rip on Vickie (though I feel a bit > like I got that in return) You made me sound as if I thought CD Baby and other like distributors should do what they do for *free*, for *nothing*, which is a) putting false words in my mouth and b) completely misrepresenting my confusion and honest inquiry into why $4 per CD wasn't considered a heck of a lot of money. To my "I'm not trying to be combative" you came back at me awfully combative. And why? Because you promote artists who don't pay you to do so. Sorry to be snippy, but if you want to get paid for promoting artists, start a business. If you want to promote the artists because you truly, deeply, love the music, then you should understand why *I* would want to save Happy money, and get a good explanation as to where that money goes to. I got my answers and it changed my perspective, but even if no one had answered me, I would have hoped that my post was worded in such a way as to not draw ire. Your personal dealings with other artists who don't pay you the way you seem to think you deserve to be paid has nothing to do with Happy, or me, or CD Baby's charges and my question about them. > but to bring it to light for everyone here who > might have believed that the $4 was too much. I know she's not the only > person who thought/thinks this is true. But I only used her comments to make > my comments on the issue in general because, well, she's the one who wrote > them. Well, you used me to air some obviously long-held grudges against artists who probably really *need* promoting from people like you. > Just trying to add another side of the equation. > > Let's not get mad at each other. I thought we were having a civil > conversation. That was certainly my intent. I'm not mad, but don't think I would just let your misrepresenting what I said and thought go unchallenged. That upsets me. There, now all the steam is blown off and we can go back to being warm and fuzzy. Vickie np: Happy's "Dead On The Vine" (those lyrics aren't hers. Her mother gave her a poem and asked her to write music to it) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:35:08 -0800 From: Greg Bossert Subject: Re: CD Baby i apologies to everyone in advance, because i *know* that the sort of response i am about to make is useless, and that i will only get a snippy response in return. i know better than to try to rationally address an emotional argument on a mailing list. but i hate to see people get bullied... my goodness! what started as a legitimate attempt to send some advice to Happy about sound distribution practices, based on peoples' direct experience, has turned into a rather tedious thread. Vickie, this discussion is NOT about you! this is about people who have dealt with CDBaby in various ways recommending it on rational grounds. get over yourself already! as an example, the following was way out of line -- you built this whole scenario around a short section of Amy's message, and turned into something nasty: On Mar 27, 2005, at 1:27 PM, Xenu's Sister wrote: > Well, you used me to air some obviously long-held grudges against > artists > who probably really *need* promoting from people like you. that's just plain mean, childish, rude, almost certainly uninformed, and it does nothing to further a useful discussion. and, in line with my sig, i thought i should point that out.. - -g - -- "i've never been afraid to change the circumstances of the world" - -- Happy Rhodes ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 17:57:38 -0600 From: "Collected Sounds" <2345@collectedsounds.com> Subject: RE: CD Baby Hi everyone Just wanted to clear something up about this little "argument". I am responding to Vickie privately so as not to drag everyone into this but I want to make sure that my intentions via my site are clear to anyone who cares. _if_ anyone cares : ) I know some of the artists I have featured are on this list and I don't want any of them or anyone else to misunderstand what Collected Sounds (and myself) is all about. I started Collected Sounds in 2000 because there were not many sites out there (that I could find at the time) that prominently featured women in music. It eventually grew into a place for mostly Indie musicians and I have even added some men recently. I in no way meant to say that I am resentful or hold a grudge against any artist that I have featured. I know this is not exactly a paying job. Maybe someday it will become that, but for now it's not. I make a little here and there on commissions for CD sales and a little on advertising, but that doesn't even cover the hosting costs, let alone my time (which is about 20 hours a week). It's fine, it's my thing, and it is what it is. When it's not fine or fun anymore, I'll quit. I still support independent artists (well, even signed ones actually) and will continue to do so. The only reason I brought the whole thing up is that there are quite a lot of people that do things similar to what I do and many of you fall into that category as well. We promote artists however we can because we genuinely believe in them and wish for their success. So I was letting a little frustration at some artists (not at anyone else) that refuse to sign up for CDBaby, SonicBids, whatever because they don't want to spent the money. Because there are those of us who do it for free, some artists tend to get used to it and think that is the way should be. At least that's what I perceive. That's what I have read on other lists. So I just felt like I had to clear up my original statement because obviously I didn't express myself clearly. Thanks ~Amy - -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecto@smoe.org [mailto:owner-ecto@smoe.org]On Behalf Of Collected Sounds Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 1:54 PM To: dmw; ecto@smoe.org Subject: RE: CD Baby >I think what's going on is a common problem with mailing lists, >which can be very asyncrhonous. Thank you. That is exactly what's going on in my case anyway. Messages do not always come in the order they are sent. I for one have not seen one email from Vickie other than her first one regarding CD Baby. I know from you guys and from her that she did indeed send one, but I didn't see it. Plus, I personally, was not intending to rip on Vickie (though I feel a bit like I got that in return) but to bring it to light for everyone here who might have believed that the $4 was too much. I know she's not the only person who thought/thinks this is true. But I only used her comments to make my comments on the issue in general because, well, she's the one who wrote them. Just trying to add another side of the equation. Let's not get mad at each other. I thought we were having a civil conversation. That was certainly my intent. ~Amy - -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecto@smoe.org [mailto:owner-ecto@smoe.org]On Behalf Of dmw Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 12:54 PM To: ecto@smoe.org Subject: Re: CD Baby I think what's going on is a common problem with mailing lists, which can be very asyncrhonous. Most of us have seen Vickie responding to the input some of us had about distro costs, but I think some people are still responding to the original message without having seen all of the follow ups. .0 On Sun, 27 Mar 2005, robert bristow-johnson wrote: > on 03/27/2005 06:30, Tim Cook at tim@palare.demon.co.uk wrote: > > > Just because the guy that owns CDBaby loves music doesn't mean that he > > should do it for free. I've > > known artists in the UK that get charged more that #4 a CD for someone > > to sell it for them. Thats > > nearly twice as much. Personally I don't think $4 per CD is outrageous. > > hey, let's give Vickie a break on this. i think she heard it the first 5 > times and it need not be drilled into our consciousness (or subconscious) > that $4 is not outrageous. > > > the pathetic caverns: a zine - opinionated and eclectic reviews a studio - specializing in indie/rock/mobile/live/demo recording http://www.pathetic-caverns.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 19:56:02 -0800 From: Cyoakha Subject: Re: thanks from an artist, and CD Baby I agree with Amy completely. I think artists that complain a lot and do not appreciate those that help them along the way are just assholes, and there are assholes in every career. Not that I do not know, personally, what a long hard struggle it is, I do. Years of playing for free, long trips to end up playing somewhere funky to ten folks, put always in the "back room" smelling of old beer, spending more on posters and pr than you make at the door, being ripped off by clubs for "invisible-unprovable" pr and the doorman and the soundman so that you are almost playing for free even when you fill a room, touring, sleeping on floors, wreaking your arms and back lifting gear, being on the road and missing family events and relationships that later you regret, all for your muse, years of not having any health insurance, years of knowing if someone robs your van or house all your un-insured equipment is a goner and your "career" is over, and for those who chose NOT to kiss butt, or sleep with big time promoters, or flirt with club owners, or dress sexy, or sell out, or write for the masses, or "dumb down" your lyrics, or chose an excepted genre, or or act like a "rock star" like your shit doesn't stink, on stage or off-stage or put a nude woman on your pr, well, FORGET ABOUT IT..... It's a hard business and to follow your muse is even harder. Most of us are NOT lucky, the few that rise above are very VERY lucky and so should be even kinder to those around them, below them or helping them. Those stuck at the bottom or middle, should always appreciate ANYONE who helps, from a reviewer that spends time reviewing an obscure album, to a fan that hosts a house concert, to a person that lets the band sleep on their floor while on tour, to a club owner that throws a cheap dinner at a broke touring band, to a fan that is willing to poster a town before you get there, to a radio show that thinks your weird stuff is cool and plays it, I myself have been thanking others with deep love and appreciation for years. I am so sorry that Amy, who runs a site for folks to be seen and heard on, doesn't get the appreciation back she deserves. Thank you Amy for doing that for artists, and thank you Michael P., (long time very loyal friend & fan), and Anna Maria and other ectos for buying my work, and Meth and hubby for hosting us back east, for Jack Sutton for his site and reviews, for Bill Mazur for attending many of my concerts and for great reviews, and for all the posts and reviews and attendees from this list through-out the years. Without the listeners, there is no circle of completion. I don't regret following my muse at all, my career to some might seem iffy, but to me, I feel very lucky to have been able to do so, and not ever sell out, and create new paths musically, and have know that some folks have seen it, heard it, gotten it, and appreciate it, well, that's the icing. And again, CD Baby is great, lots of marketing done for you for only $4!!! Record companies only give you a few cents per album and yes, thye pay to record you and recoop all their money out of your pockets. Lots of people like James Brown and others with huge hits that ended up broke and ripped off. My album, OM, ended up costing me $20K, (what with a year of recording in two cities in two studios at full price). There is no way to EVER make that money back, even by selling the entire first run of one thousand cds at $15 it still doesn't do it. But rather than selling 10 cds at each concert, twice a month, (big income of $200 per month), CD Baby helps me a lot. I sell only a few a month on my own two sites, but twice that on CD Baby. Plus folks can pay on line. Plus international fans can find me a lot easier. Plus they do my digital distribution. Plus they send me customer's emails. Plus they ship them all. Plus credit cards can be dealt with on line by them. Plus they gave me a credit card machine for tour sales on the road for $25. Plus they host my web site (huge, I could have all four cds on line site is so big) for $20 a month. All that for $4 a cd is fine by me and I thank them all the time and send them candy in the mail. so again, Happy, from a fellow artist, I think it's a great deal. And thank you all those that have helped any of us struggling talented holy fools. in peace and appreciation, cyoakha grace ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 20:37:55 -0800 (PST) From: "Xenu's Sister" Subject: Taking a break I haven't read any of the followups since Greg's, I haven't even opened my ecto folder. I'm too depressed to deal with it. Chris is home and it looks like my hard drive is toast. C is salvagable, but E has disappeared, which took with it into the ether 80+gb of mp3s-my entire CD collection, as well as rare tracks gotten from Napster, and tracks ripped from my LPs and cassettes; all my wav and mp3 files of Happy concerts (including all those set lists I had); my digital pictures of Happy in Toledo, Kenosha and Chicago (irreplacable), and goddess knows what else. I had some things backed up, but not nearly enough. Not all of my digital pictures. Much, maybe even most of what I lost is replacable. Tediously and time-consumingly and pain-in-the-buttly replaceable, but replacable. Not my digital pictures. Stupid, stupid me. Beyond belief stupid me. Bright side: I have my two very favorite digital Happy pics that I had uploaded. One, which was taken in Kenosha, is on the front page of http://happyrhodes.org, and the other, taken in Toledo and which I love because she's looking right at me, was being tested as a background for the message board. Hooray. I have my C drive backed up. Good for me. All my Eudora files, which were on C, are still there (which matters because I keep all the emails I've gotten from Happy over the years). All my FAQ stuff was on smoe (FAQ? What FAQ?) Also on smoe were all the May, 1996 Philly pics and all the Happy/Kate Winamp skins I made. I have no idea why I put those on smoe, since I never intended to share them, but I've VERY glad I did. I keep remembering digital pictures I've lost forever. Besides the Happy shows, I had several Rachael Sage shows (including an in-store at Virgin), an Innocence Mission show where Chris caught me in deep conversaton with Karen Peris, and her hugging me, Mari Boine and me, Happy...lots of Happy after the Chicago show, Noe Venable's big smile and hugs, my beloved cat Ran Tan who died last year of cancer (I still have one picture left, my desktop picture), so many more. Where was my brain? Where was my common sense? What was I thinking? Backup people. Backup. Anyway, I started something I shouldn't have, and I apologise to each and every Ectophile, starting with Amy. I have to take a break for a while. When I get snippy in ecto, I know I have to take a break. My high has just crashed. :wanders off, depressed as all get out: Vickie Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V11 #85 **************************