From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V10 #72 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Saturday, March 13 2004 Volume 10 : Number 072 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Today's your birthday, friend... [Mike Matthews ] RE: Remastering question (Re: some Ecto reviews) [DanStark <2004.carnivor] Re: Remastering question (Re: some Ecto reviews) [Ethan Straffin ] RE: Remastering question (Re: some Ecto reviews) [Nadyne Mielke ] Nields on ATC this evening [Valerie Richardson ] Re: Looking for an artist. [DanStark <2004.carnivore99@verizon.net>] Some Advice - iPod vs Creative Nomad ["ron" ] Re: Some Advice - iPod vs Creative Nomad [steve ] yesterday in Spain (off-topic) ["JoAnn Whetsell" ] Re: yesterday in Spain (off-topic) ["Southpaw" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 03:00:03 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Matthews Subject: Today's your birthday, friend... i*i*i*i*i*i i*i*i*i*i*i *************** *****HAPPY********* **************BIRTHDAY********* *************************************************** *************************************************************************** ****************** Matt Bittner (bittnerm@earthlink.net) ****************** *************************************************************************** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Matt Bittner Thu March 12 1964 Pisces kIrI Hargie Fri March 13 1970 Pisces Bob Dreano Thu March 13 1958 Pisces Randall K. Smith Sat March 15 1969 Pisces Jessica Skolnik March 16 Pisces Alan Sodoma Thu March 18 1965 LuckyLurker Richard Konrad Sat March 18 1944 Pisces Barry Wong Thu March 19 1970 Merlin Graham Dombkins Fri March 19 1965 Pisces Ian Young Wed March 19 1969 Squiggol Jeff Wasilko Wed March 19 1969 Pisces Geoff Carre Sat March 20 1954 Pisces John Stewart Sat March 21 1970 Aries Bob Brown Thu March 22 1951 Ham Valerie Nozick Thu March 25 1971 Aries Tom Proven Sat March 27 1971 Eat at Joe's Jennifer Albert Wed March 30 1966 Aries (w/Cancer rising!:) Warpaint Mon April 01 1991 Brilliant! Michael Pearce Wed April 03 1946 Pegasus Michael E. Bravo Mon April 05 1971 Dandelion Wine Brion McIntosh Sun April 06 1958 Aries Marcel Kshensky Thu April 06 1950 Aries Bill Mazur Mon April 06 1953 Aries Sun/Cancer Rising David Dixon Tue April 07 1970 Aries Heidi Heller Mon April 08 1974 Aries Jill Hughes Sat April 09 1955 Aries Klaus Kluge Sun April 10 1960 Unicorn Steve VanDevender Sun April 10 1966 Racer Art Liestman Fri April 10 1953 Repeat Stephen Golden Sat April 10 1971 Jokey Michael Bowman Wed April 11 1962 Aries Wolfgang Ullwer Fri April 11 1969 Widder Janet Kirsch Thu April 11 1974 Aries - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 03:48:21 -0500 From: DanStark <2004.carnivore99@verizon.net> Subject: RE: Remastering question (Re: some Ecto reviews) >Actually, most decent software should be able to do it. What you want to >do is invert one of the waveforms, then add it to the other. In theory that should work, but realistically I don't think you could pull it off. The reason that MP3 trick works is that you're working on the same exact source file, just saved with different level of compression, so it's not very hard to line them up and find the differences. However, with something like the Tori remasters I don't think you're just going to be looking at exactly the same original sound file with a few new instruments layered in. There could be portions of different takes dropped in, or entirely different takes used for the "remix" versions altogether. Some edits may also have been recut, which would throw off the timing of mirror image. And even discounting those probabilities, there are likely speed variations in the new analog-to-digital transfer that would hinder your attempts to line the two files up frame by frame. It sounds like an interesting thing to try though. If you can't get them lined up well enough to cancel out the similarities, at least you could probably get them lined up closely enough to do an A-B comparison, punching back and forth between the two versions while the song plays so you can hear the differences by ear. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 21:27:45 -0800 From: Ethan Straffin Subject: Re: Remastering question (Re: some Ecto reviews) On Thursday, March 11, 2004, at 08:44 PM, Hooplessly Unfroody wrote: > Actually, most decent software should be able to do it. What you want > to > do is invert one of the waveforms, then add it to the other. You can > test > it by working on 2 copies of the same file - the inverted waveform will > cancel out the original, leaving silence. > > For a fun project, take a file, compress it to mp3/ogg/lossy > compression of > your choice at a couple of different rates, uncompress the files back > to > waves, invert the original and add it to each of the reconstituted > lossy > files. What you hear is what was determined to be "inaudible" and > lost in > the compression. > > bob Wow...I am so very much off to try this. (Both parts.) Thanks, Ethan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 08:40:15 -0500 (EST) From: dmw Subject: RE: Remastering question (Re: some Ecto reviews) On Fri, 12 Mar 2004, DanStark wrote: > It sounds like an interesting thing to try though. If you can't get them > lined up well enough to cancel out the similarities, at least you could > probably get them lined up closely enough to do an A-B comparison, punching > back and forth between the two versions while the song plays so you can > hear the differences by ear. that touches on another issue that's going to make this hard to do - -- in almost every case, i bet the gut reaction is going to be that the remasterd version is significantly louder (thank you to the look-ahead peak limiter) -- the character of the sound is going to have been altered significantly by compressing it more. so if you do an a-b it's going to be really hard to separate o ut "louder" from more subtle variations -- you might need to start by artificially lowering the volume of the remaster by normalizing to less than 100% until it "feels" like the same volume as the original. honestly, i'm not s ure what you get if you take a signal, squash it, invert it, and add it back to the original ... if i weren't on deadline, i might try it, since i'm processing audio files right now... oh the heck with it ... ..well i should have figured that out. you wind up with the parts of the (unremastered) signal that were most drastically affected - -- in the case of my sample narration file i have a file that's almost exclusively plosives and sibilants. kinda cool. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 08:42:31 -0800 From: Nadyne Mielke Subject: RE: Remastering question (Re: some Ecto reviews) At 05:40 AM 3/12/2004, dmw wrote: [snip all of the WAV-MP3 talk, which is all quite interesting (at least IMHO)] >..well i should have figured that out. you wind up with the parts >of the (unremastered) signal that were most drastically affected >-- in the case of my sample narration file i have a file that's >almost exclusively plosives and sibilants. Err, could you translate that to English? /nm {software engineer, not audio engineer} ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:19:48 -0800 From: Greg Bossert Subject: Re: Remastering question (Re: some Ecto reviews) On Mar 12, 2004, at 8:42 AM, Nadyne Mielke wrote: > At 05:40 AM 3/12/2004, dmw wrote: >> ..well i should have figured that out. you wind up with the parts >> of the (unremastered) signal that were most drastically affected >> -- in the case of my sample narration file i have a file that's >> almost exclusively plosives and sibilants. > > > Err, could you translate that to English? > English is, in fact, at least the *topic*, or rather, dmw is talking about speech. plosives are vocal sounds that make little poofs of air (that's technical talk), like "b" and "p". and sibilants are sounds made by your brothers and sisters. erm, alright, sibilants are hissing noises, like "s" and "th". plosives and sibilants tend to be loud, since they have a lot of high frequencies and involve moving a lot of air -- just put your hand in front of your mouth while talking and you'll feel it. they are the bane of the audio engineer trying to get good levels from vocals (they also blow a lot of spit into your good microphones, which is why you always see those little cloth-and-wire disks in between singers and mics in studios!) so, since these sounds are loud, they are more affected by the sort of level/loudness processing dmw was discussing -- the sort that is often done on remastered tracks to make them sound ooomphier (more technical talk). thus, when using the magic "remove everything that hasn't changed" trick, you end up with a lot of plosives and sibilants. this has been used for some very odd effects. check out the language removal services (note that this is somewhere between a joke and "art" - -- i think it is flarking brilliant): there are some good examples here: - -g p.s. hi, all! i've been pretty laid out by continued illness and, sigh, the loss of my second cat in a year... but i still read the list every day! - -- "i've never been afraid to change the circumstances of the world" - -- Happy Rhodes - -- "except for bunnies..." - -- Anya [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type application/pkcs7-signature which had a name of smime.p7s] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 10:09:05 -0800 (PST) From: Neile Graham Subject: Rasputina news! For those interested. - -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Recitals, upcoming. From: Rasputina Date: Fri, March 12, 2004 9:40 am Hello. Our new album, "Frustration Plantation" will be released next Tuesday, March 16th. Please enjoy it. Below are our upcoming recital dates. Sincere apologies for age restrictions. More dates in South and West Coast to come. 4/11 Baltimore, MD- Ottobar 4/13 Atlanta, GA- The Earl 4/14 Asheville, NC- Stella Blue 4/15 Cincinnati, OH- 20th Century Theater 4/17 Grand Rapids, MI- Intersection 4/18 Chicago, IL- House of Blues 4/19 Minneapolis, MN- 400 Bar 4/20 Bloomington, IN- Bluebird 4/21 Ann Arbor, MI- Blind Pig 4/22 Pittsburgh, PA- Mr. Small's 4/23 Cleveland, OH- Grog Shop 4/24 Morgantown, WV- 123 Pleasant St. 4/26 Hartford, CT - Webster Theater 4/27 Northampton, MA- Iron Horse 4/28 Burlington, VT- Club Metronome 4/29 Hoboken, NJ- Maxwell's Love, Rasputina ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:58:45 -0500 From: Valerie Richardson Subject: Nields on ATC this evening The Nields are on All Things considered tonight, right now, at four minutes before 5:00 p.m. They're doing one of the occasional segments ATC has in which a singer is explaining his/her music, with no interviewer or additional narration, with snippets of music in between. - --Valerie ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 00:50:35 -0500 From: DanStark <2004.carnivore99@verizon.net> Subject: Re: Looking for an artist. >My guess would be it's the group Ollabelle. They have a new album >out. The lead singer's name is Amy Helm. > >http://www.ollabellemusic.com/ What a coincidence, I'm sitting here watching Conan O'Brien and he just announced that Ollabelle is the musical guest tonight. That's tonight, Friday (officially Saturday morning) -- Olabelle should be on at about 1:25am if anyone is up for it. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 07:52:53 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Some Advice - iPod vs Creative Nomad hi im looking for a bit of advice i had kind of decided to go out & get an ipod. now i see that creative has the 60 gig nomad for around the same price. so which is the better option?? i seem to remember this was discussed here a while ago, but since reformatting i dont have the mails to check. ron ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 00:32:06 -0600 From: steve Subject: Re: Some Advice - iPod vs Creative Nomad On Mar 12, 2004, at 11:52 PM, ron wrote: > i had kind of decided to go out & get an ipod. > > now i see that creative has the 60 gig nomad for around the same price. > > so which is the better option?? i seem to remember this was discussed > here a > while ago, but since reformatting i dont have the mails to check. Just about every review states that, in toto, the iPod is at the top of the heap in both hardware and software. But you might really like the Nomad, so I'd recommend finding a place that sells both so you can judge for yourself. - - Steve ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 01:40:23 -0500 From: "JoAnn Whetsell" Subject: yesterday in Spain (off-topic) I just wanted to write a note to express my sympathy and sadness at yesterday's attacks in Spain to any Spanish citizens on list and all citizens of the world. I remember the outpouring of support after September 11, and yesterday brought much of that back to me, those strange days walking around New York City. (The song "Land of the Living" on Lucy Kaplansky's new album has also brought those memories back lately.) Not actually being a City resident at the time, I know my grief was so much less than that of others. And I know that yesterday in Spain and September 11 in America have happened and continue to happen around the globe. My heart continues to go out and up. JoAnn - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar  get it now! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 00:54:40 -0600 From: "Southpaw" Subject: Re: yesterday in Spain (off-topic) Very nice sentiment, JoAnn! And very nicely said! I want to express my sympathy as well to all of our Spanish brothers and sisters! It seems just like yesterday I was in Madrid, riding the subway to the Prado, in the same station that was bombed. The news of the bombings sent a chill down my spine, and then when I heard it was in areas I had been before, it really hit home! It is my hope that senseless destruction like this will only help to truly bring us, as a world of people, closer together! Wade - ----- Original Message ----- From: "JoAnn Whetsell" To: Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 12:40 AM Subject: yesterday in Spain (off-topic) > I just wanted to write a note to express my sympathy and sadness at > yesterday's attacks in Spain to any Spanish citizens on list and all > citizens of the world. I remember the outpouring of support after > September 11, and yesterday brought much of that back to me, those > strange days walking around New York City. (The song "Land of the > Living" on Lucy Kaplansky's new album has also brought those memories > back lately.) > > Not actually being a City resident at the time, I know my grief was so > much less than that of others. And I know that yesterday in Spain and > September 11 in America have happened and continue to happen around the > globe. My heart continues to go out and up. > > > > JoAnn > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar  get it now! ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V10 #72 **************************