From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V9 #172 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Wednesday, June 18 2003 Volume 09 : Number 172 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Today's your birthday, friends... [Mike Matthews ] cd collecting [adamk@zoom.co.uk] Re: cd collectin' (was Re: multi-cd player question) ["Xenu's Sister" ] Re: carousel players [cjmacs ] RE: cd collecting ["Dave Williamson" ] RE: cd collectin' [JoAnn Whetsell ] Re: cd collectin' (was Re: multi-cd player question) [Yngve Hauge ] Re: cd collecting - musician's earnings [Robert Lovejoy ] Re: carousel players ["Brian Bloom" ] RE: cd collecting ["Xenu's Sister" ] Re: cd collecting [Kjetil Torgrim Homme ] RE: cd collecting ["Dave Williamson" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 03:00:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Mike Matthews Subject: Today's your birthday, friends... i*i*i*i*i*i i*i*i*i*i*i *************** *****HAPPY********* **************BIRTHDAY********* *************************************************** *************************************************************************** **************** Ecto-The Mailing List (no Email address) ***************** ********************* Tracy Barber (no Email address) ********************* ********************** Greg Dunn (gregdunn@indy.net) ********************** ********************* Paul Blair (ciriwe@phobot.net) ********************** ***************** Mike Connell (ducksoup@quackquack.net) ****************** *************************************************************************** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Ecto-The Mailing List Tue June 18 1991 Fuzzy blue Tracy Barber Mon June 18 1956 Gemini Greg Dunn Thu June 18 1953 + Paul Blair Thu June 18 1964 Objectivist Mike Connell Sat June 18 1955 Apollo David Lubkin Fri June 20 1958 OurLady Marisa Wood Fri June 20 1969 Gemini Cheri Villines Sun June 20 1965 Gemini-Leo rising Ray Misra Sat June 20 1970 Gemini Nik Popa Sun June 22 1969 Cancer Teresa VanDyne Thu June 23 1960 Cancer Dave Torok Mon June 24 1968 Cancer Ethan Straffin Thu June 24 1971 Cancer Kevin Dekan Mon June 27 1960 Cancer Samantha Tanner Tue June 30 1970 Wild Goose BunkyTom Tue July 02 1968 Cancer Anders Hallberg Tue July 03 1962 Cancer Kevin Harkins Thu July 05 1973 Cancer Laurel Krahn Mon July 05 1971 Cancer John J Henshon Mon July 05 1954 The Year Of The Horse / Ruled By The Moon Jim Gurley Mon July 06 1959 Cancer Lisa Rouchka Fri July 08 1960 Moonchild with Java Rising Courtney Dallas Fri July 09 1971 Catte Michael Peskura Sat July 09 1949 HallOfFamer Finney T. Tsai Sat July 09 1966 Cancer Larry Greenfield Tue July 11 1950 Virgo Rising; Gemini Moon Marion Kippers Tue July 13 1965 Kreeft Ellen Rawson Thu July 13 1961 Double Cancer Mitch Pravatiner Mon July 14 1952 Cancer R. Rapp Wed July 14 1954 On a Gray Eye Sojourn John Zimmer Sun July 16 1961 Cancer Dan Stark Sun July 16 1961 Cancer Cathy Guetzlaff Mon July 18 1955 Cancer Vlad Sat July 18 1970 Warning: severe tire damage - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:01:50 +0100 From: adamk@zoom.co.uk Subject: cd collecting Being totally technically inept, I have to admit I often "switch off" when the talks gets too technical here (once someone starts talking about "ripping", I know I'm not going anywhere I can understand). I think everyone out there is faaar more technically advanced than I am -- I've burned no more than a half dozen cd's in my time, and it's always caused me heart murmers. We don't have broadband, so that's another whole world closed off to me. But anyway, the subject was collecting: yeah, I'm anal, and I think I love to collect. I have about 750 cd's, right now and --- obviously --- some just never get listened to, but you dig one out one day and go "Wow, I'd forgotten about this", even if you don't listen to it again for another couple of years. But....burn them all onto a hard drive? I'm sorry, I just don't get it. Maybe I'm just toooo anal but...I remember when cd's came in, and everyone bemoaned the death of the sleeve artist, the old gatefold sleeves with illustrations and liner notes and short stories. I thought -- well, cd's aren't the same (and no, you can't roll a joint on them very well) but there's still something to work with. Note the Throwing Muses new release, for instance, which does a lot with such a small canvas. I like reading the liner notes, still, I like the feel of the cd in my hand. Burnt onto a hard drive, it's just one more step towards it being mere digital information, removed from the whole art form. More importantly....you guys have a lot of faith in your hard drives. My experience (mind you, this IS England) is of hard drives that crash, freeze, change your files so that they'll only play on some program that you've never seen before or don't play at all, and implode all together. A few years ago I lost everything of mine, everything of my partners, all my kids school projects, when a drive started acting up. Imagine wiping my entire cd collection! Hell, I still can't think of my computer as anything other than a computer, and not a home entertainment unit. I have a decent stereo which I've put together recently, while I had some money, and I play my music on that. My PC is very basic, I'm not about to start going in and adding things (that's what led to the trouble last time) and it's really just there for me to write, peak at the net, and check my e-mails. But, maybe it just comes down to the fact that...well, I'm anal and posessive, and like nothing more than sitting, looking at all the spines of the cd's lined up along the wall, all filed away by artist, and thinking "They're mine, all mine", and chortling, chortling away. adam k. PS -- Hey, Damon, you think getting up and changing a cd every 50 minutes or so is a drag? Remember vinyl and having to get up every 20 minutes to turn the damned thing over? You kids, you don't know you're born, I tell you! - ------------------------------------------------ This mail sent through http://webmail.zoom.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 03:28:40 -0500 From: "Xenu's Sister" Subject: Re: cd collectin' (was Re: multi-cd player question) At 02:37 PM 6/17/2003 -0700, Damon wrote: >how about it, anyone else out there who is willing to admit they're a >little more married to the medium than maybe they'd like? I've got at least 1500 CDs (I haven't counted them recently) and I keep buying more. After not buying hardly anything last year, I've bought 40-60 so far this year (part of it is making up for not buying). And, I've ripped or am ripping (sorry Adam!) every single one of them to mp3. I've got about 100 gigs tied up in mp3s. I want the physical product whenever possible, but I *also* want the mp3s. I look at the physical CD as both an item of collection, and as an investment, things I can sell if I really get desperate for money. The mp3s are what I actually listen to, unless it's something special, like a new Happy CD, in which case I'll listen often to the CD itself. >i was worried about annie lennox's new one as apparently it's copy >protected in europe, but i didn't see anything on the copy at a&b, and >it's playing fine with xmms at work right now. I will never buy any CD that's copy protected. If I accidentally do, and I can't make mp3s from it, it'll get returned. If it's something I absolutely can't live without, such as, goddess forbid, a new Happy or Kate CD, I'll turn to my friends who Know People who will have the copy protection cracked in about 5 seconds, and get mp3s from them. Which I *will* share (not the whole album, except with people I know who have bought it, but can't make mp3s for themselves). V (back to the grind. Thanks for the good wishes) ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 2003 21:30:08 +1000 From: andrew fries Subject: Re: cd collecting On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 18:01, adamk@zoom.co.uk wrote: > Being totally technically inept, I have to admit I often "switch off" when the > talks gets too technical here I can understand your feelings, but unfortunately technical ineptness is fast becoming a luxury we, as consumers, can no longer afford. Unless you learn to recognise copy-protected CDs, you'll get screwed. Unless you learn how make your way around it, you'll get screwed. Unless you learn to get by without Windows on your computer.... you'll get screwed. Some will display more inclination and ability than others, but everyone needs to achieve certain amount of knowledge and awareness, as a matter of self-defence. > More importantly....you guys have a lot of faith in your hard drives. The idea is that once files are on your hard drive, they can be backed up, copied and multiplied until they are safe. Sure, a drive could fail - - that's why I always try to keep two computers going, and burn backups every now and then :) Many of CDs in our collections are by now irreplaceable - where would I find both Kaktus Mantras EPs should my CDs be damaged or lost? Well, not in the music stores, that's for sure. But if I have them on my disk I can restore them - at least as long as RIAA/Microsoft/government allow me to use cd burners. - --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Grrr ... Arrrgh!" - --------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 07:52:57 -0400 From: cjmacs Subject: Re: carousel players hi all! damon wrote: > how about it, anyone else out there who is willing to admit they're a > little more married to the medium than maybe they'd like? ummmmm.... yes but with over 10k cds in our collection now, the term "married" somehow doesn't do it justice... i was DEFINITELY more married to vinyl though. the thrill of ripping the shrinkwrap off and the excitement of having all of that LARGE size artwork was way more gratifying! i HATE opening cds- that sticky, goppy sticker annoys me to no end! > i'm actually pretty sure i don't want one of the `jukebox' style cd > players anyway, which is why in the original email i mentioned i was > leaning more towards a 5-disc carousel type arrangement. i'd like to > be able to put in a few discs so i don't have to get up and change it > constantly while hanging out with friends - but i don't think i have > any reason to want half my collection in the player at any one time. > really, if i wanted that i *would* just hook it up to the computer. so > maybe that answers your original question. :) we have a denon 5-disc carousel which has been the best we've gotten carousel-wise. for some reason, every carousel-type player we've had (a yamaha, nad and a magnavox) has had problems. either discs get stuck inside them forever (goodbye u2's joshua tree!) or the rotating mechanism wears out. the denon mis-reads which disc is playing (slot 4 shows up as disc 1) but so far that's been the only problem with it. chuck n.p. - it's jo and danny: but we have the music n.r. - consumer reports cars 2003 issue- yes it's THAT time again... i REALLY feel like spending $20,000+ for a decent new car :-( ***** you have received these electrons from: cjmacs@comcast.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:47:38 -0400 From: "Dave Williamson" Subject: RE: cd collecting I'd like to weigh in with two points. First, MP3 sound quality is horrible. It is a sampled and compressed medium of something that is already sampled in the first place. It sounds fine played through headphones with a portable box that is not capable of quality sound production. It sounds fine in a car where the background noise overwhelms blemishes. But through any decent quality sound system in a proper listening environment, it is painful to listen to. So storing all of your CDs to a hard drive in MP3 format has ultimately destroyed the quality of the original product, and you are protecting nothing. Second, I've heard every argument under the sun about music piracy. Ultimately the guy at the end of the food chain is the musician that created what you're listening to in the first place. When you pay for something, that musician gets something for it. Do I believe that the musician gets an appropriate share on the sale of a CD? No. Do I believe the record companies have taken advantage of the consumer? Yes. But ultimately I will only be able to continue to enjoy one of my life's passions if the people that create it get paid for it in one way, shape, or form. If you steal music from the Internet, or rip your friend's CDs, and never buy anything yourself, then you are in the end stealing from the guy/gal who created it in the first place. Plain and simple. There is no argument in the world that makes that right, just or ethical to an artist. And in the end continued proliferation and condoning of the theft of artistry will ultimately result in an end to what we all enjoy in the first place. Artists are people. People need money to live. An artist makes their money from what they create, and the distribution of same. If people steal what they create via the distribution mechanism, then the artist ends up with nothing. I can't tolerate all of the arguments against corporations that are pro theft of copyright because the ultimate copyright is owned by the artist. So if we're going to talk about people getting screwed, and self defence, I'd like to understand what the rights are of the creator of the work instead of the poor mistreated consumer who ultimately doesn't want to pay for anything. When a pair of shoes wears out, you buy a new pair. I have 100's of LPs in my collection that are as much as 30 years old, and in mint condition because I take care of them. I have never had to do anything to copy or preserve them. They will last my life time. As will the 100's of CDs I've bought since the LP faded as a viable medium. Regards, Dave. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecto@smoe.org [mailto:owner-ecto@smoe.org] On Behalf Of andrew fries Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 6:30 AM To: Ecto Subject: Re: cd collecting On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 18:01, adamk@zoom.co.uk wrote: > Being totally technically inept, I have to admit I often "switch off" > when the > talks gets too technical here I can understand your feelings, but unfortunately technical ineptness is fast becoming a luxury we, as consumers, can no longer afford. Unless you learn to recognise copy-protected CDs, you'll get screwed. Unless you learn how make your way around it, you'll get screwed. Unless you learn to get by without Windows on your computer.... you'll get screwed. Some will display more inclination and ability than others, but everyone needs to achieve certain amount of knowledge and awareness, as a matter of self-defence. > More importantly....you guys have a lot of faith in your hard drives. The idea is that once files are on your hard drive, they can be backed up, copied and multiplied until they are safe. Sure, a drive could fail - - that's why I always try to keep two computers going, and burn backups every now and then :) Many of CDs in our collections are by now irreplaceable - where would I find both Kaktus Mantras EPs should my CDs be damaged or lost? Well, not in the music stores, that's for sure. But if I have them on my disk I can restore them - at least as long as RIAA/Microsoft/government allow me to use cd burners. - --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Grrr ... Arrrgh!" - --------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 09:07:06 -0400 From: JoAnn Whetsell Subject: RE: cd collectin' I have a 5 disc changer and a 20GB mp3 player. I love them both. I use the stereo at home and the mp3 player during my commute to work. I'll never give up my cds. I could never get them all onto my computer anyway. I can rip about 10 before my computer is nearly out of memory. Then I have to erase all the files before I can rip some more. For changers though, don't get one of the carousel types that has a pull-out tray holding all 3 or 5 cds. Those tend to break more easily, and actually, I'm not sure they make them anymore. The newer kind has the discs stacked and one tray at a time pulls out. You can also (on mine anyway and I assume on most or all others) switch discs in the other trays while playing a disc. Don't know if someone already addressed this as I haven't finished reading yesterday's messages yet, but that's my 2 cents. JoAnn - -----Original Message----- From: Damon [mailto:dl+ecto@usrbin.ca] Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 6:47 PM To: ecto@smoe.org Subject: Re: cd collectin' i'm actually pretty sure i don't want one of the `jukebox' style cd players anyway, which is why in the original email i mentioned i was leaning more towards a 5-disc carousel type arrangement. i'd like to be able to put in a few discs so i don't have to get up and change it constantly while hanging out with friends - but i don't think i have any reason to want half my collection in the player at any one time. really, if i wanted that i *would* just hook it up to the computer. so maybe that answers your original question. :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 15:19:58 +0200 (CEST) From: Yngve Hauge Subject: Re: cd collectin' (was Re: multi-cd player question) On Tue, 17 Jun 2003, Damon wrote: > while i was there today i saw that there are more and more `copy > control' logos on cds i might concievably have otherwise purchased > (none i really *wanted* thankfully). i have decided i will refuse to > purchase, as a point of principle if nothing else, any such cds. so > ironically (again), the major record labels may well provide the final > push to make me go digital. copy protected cds really are the only > ones i'd be likely to want to `illegally' copy, if i liked the music > enough. luckily in recent years there've been less and less major > label releases i'd want anyway. > We've come to call the so-called 'copy control' 'user control' because it prevents you from playing your own CDs on whatever player you want. If they think that by preventing people from playing the CDs they'll get control over the "piracy" then they are more stupid than I thought they were. Everyone with some sense knows what is wrong with the industry, but it seems like themselves are immune to seeing it. - -- Yngve ****************************************** * E-mail: onealien@mo.himolde.no ********* * Cell: +47 41330571 ********************* ***** Blessed be!!! ********************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 15:46:43 +0200 (CEST) From: Yngve Hauge Subject: RE: cd collecting On Wed, 18 Jun 2003, Dave Williamson wrote: > If you steal music from the Internet, or rip your friend's CDs, and never > buy anything yourself, then you are in the end stealing from the guy/gal who > created it in the first place. Plain and simple. There is no argument in > the world that makes that right, just or ethical to an artist. And in the > end continued proliferation and condoning of the theft of artistry will > ultimately result in an end to what we all enjoy in the first place. > Artists are people. People need money to live. An artist makes their money > from what they create, and the distribution of same. If people steal what > they create via the distribution mechanism, then the artist ends up with > nothing. I can't tolerate all of the arguments against corporations that > are pro theft of copyright because the ultimate copyright is owned by the > artist. > People do need money to eat, but like the system is today the artists actually don't own their own music - the labels do. Most of what I have on my computer is music I've bought myself - most of what I haven't bought is music I for some reason can't get hold on myself with a few exceptions. If I had known that a reasonable chunk of what I paid for a CD actually were going to the artists themselves I would have been happy to go to alot of trouble to get hold on something, but they don't and I would love to find other ways of repaying the artists for what they have been giving me. It is the same all over the place where money has got more important than the creation itself. The labels are so blind on the money part that they don't see where the profit really is - the artists generating money over a long period. Those artists are getting fewer and fewer and just a few are getting the chance to grow into their music anymore. We need a revolution in the music industry and we need it soon before it is too late. - -- Yngve ****************************************** * E-mail: onealien@mo.himolde.no ********* * Cell: +47 41330571 ********************* ***** Blessed be!!! ********************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:03:12 -0400 From: Robert Lovejoy Subject: Re: cd collecting - musician's earnings This is an interesting topic. Dave's post is well taken, but I am wondering if most musician's income is from recording sales or concerts? It would be helpful to know that. I had been under the impression that musicians didn't get all that much, relatively, from album sales, compared to what they earned playing venues. The idea was, if the recording was popular people would buy tickets to see them play. That model may be outmoded these days, I really don't know. I do know that the music business has never been an easy one to fathom. Like actors, there are many more musicians "on the outside" of fame and fortune than there are on the inside, in spite of talent. It's not an easy business to understand. I do wish to support musicians whose work touches me, but the fog over the industry is so thick and confusing that it's easy to see how things have come to be the way they are now, with ripping seemingly becoming the norm. A lot of the ripping problem stems from the record companies' greed. CDs have been so overpriced. When I was in college in the sixties albums were $3.29. I could see CDs being $7, but they started out around $18 and are still there. I know there were startup costs to recoup, and in fact the industry promised at the beginning that album costs would go down with mass acceptance. But they got greedy. It's a tough problem and I wish I had some answers. Bob Lovejoy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:17:25 -0400 From: "Dave Williamson" Subject: RE: cd collecting Yes a revolution is necessary, but the only revolution I see being advocated these days is the free distribution of music. That solves nothing, and will in the end destroy it. In theory the ease with which the medium can now be produced should have promoted a multitude of small labels distributing product at a much lower price point which in the end would have applied the appropriate competitive pressure on the big guys. Artists generally get a better percentage from smaller labels. However I have been unable to comprehend how the smaller labels that are out there charge as much or more than the big labels themselves. Artist ownership of their creations and the royalties on what they produce is far better than it was 30 years ago. Look at the contracts of some of the greatest artists of the 60's and 70's if you really want to get sick to your stomach. So while it is still far from what it should be, it has improved - believe it or not. How can you help artists directly? Donate money to them for recording time. Pay to see them live - most artists do get a share of the gate receipts from the venue. Directly send them some $ when you download their music. But providing their creations for free to others who are not going to pay for them, or stealing their creations themselves only screws the creator in the end. As small as their take on a CD sale might be, at least in the end they got something for what they produced. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecto@smoe.org [mailto:owner-ecto@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Yngve Hauge Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 8:47 AM To: The Fuzzyblue Universe Subject: RE: cd collecting On Wed, 18 Jun 2003, Dave Williamson wrote: > If you steal music from the Internet, or rip your friend's CDs, and > never buy anything yourself, then you are in the end stealing from the > guy/gal who created it in the first place. Plain and simple. There > is no argument in the world that makes that right, just or ethical to > an artist. And in the end continued proliferation and condoning of > the theft of artistry will ultimately result in an end to what we all > enjoy in the first place. Artists are people. People need money to > live. An artist makes their money from what they create, and the > distribution of same. If people steal what they create via the > distribution mechanism, then the artist ends up with nothing. I can't > tolerate all of the arguments against corporations that are pro theft > of copyright because the ultimate copyright is owned by the artist. > People do need money to eat, but like the system is today the artists actually don't own their own music - the labels do. Most of what I have on my computer is music I've bought myself - most of what I haven't bought is music I for some reason can't get hold on myself with a few exceptions. If I had known that a reasonable chunk of what I paid for a CD actually were going to the artists themselves I would have been happy to go to alot of trouble to get hold on something, but they don't and I would love to find other ways of repaying the artists for what they have been giving me. It is the same all over the place where money has got more important than the creation itself. The labels are so blind on the money part that they don't see where the profit really is - the artists generating money over a long period. Those artists are getting fewer and fewer and just a few are getting the chance to grow into their music anymore. We need a revolution in the music industry and we need it soon before it is too late. - -- Yngve ****************************************** * E-mail: onealien@mo.himolde.no ********* * Cell: +47 41330571 ********************* ***** Blessed be!!! ********************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 07:28:39 -0700 (PDT) From: "Brian Bloom" Subject: Re: carousel players > we have a denon 5-disc carousel which has been the best we've gotten > carousel-wise. for some reason, every carousel-type player we've had (a > yamaha, nad and a magnavox) has had problems. either discs get stuck > inside them forever (goodbye u2's joshua tree!) or the rotating > mechanism wears out. the denon mis-reads which disc is playing (slot 4 > shows up as disc 1) but so far that's been the only problem with it. > I've got a Technics 5-disc changer that I love to bits (pun intended!). It's a tray carousel model and you can change the 4 other discs while one is playing. It also has a rare feature among cd plyers: pitch control! You can speed the music up or slow it down up to 12%. Useful for singers, pepping up old dance music, and so on. It's worked flawlessly since day 1 (which was many years ago) and I've never had a problem with it. I think my particular model is no longer available, but I see various pages for the SL PD10 which looks to have pretty much the same feature set as mine. It or related models might still be floating around out there. My *only* complaint with it has been that the time elapsed/time remaining feature *has* to be toggled through the remote.. They didn't put that button (for whatever reason) on the front panel. No biggie, I just keep the remote sitting on top of the box and it's always within reach.... Just chiming in on a purchase I was pleased with.... moo. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 10:45:11 -0500 From: "Xenu's Sister" Subject: RE: cd collecting At 08:47 AM 6/18/2003 -0400, Dave wrote: >I'd like to weigh in with two points. > >First, MP3 sound quality is horrible. I rip mine now at the highest quality VBR (variable bit rate) so the sound is pretty good, but you're right in that CDs will always rule, sound-wise. >Second, I've heard every argument under the sun about music piracy. Oh lord, this is a non-sequitur, considering what was being discussed, which was TAKING YOUR OWN CDS AND MAKING MP3s AND LISTENING TO THEM. Wasn't that the topic? If I had time, I'd go back and find out which one of us was the "pirate" you're talking about. Piracy is now anyone who makes mp3s? Piracy is now anyone who listens to mp3s? Piracy is now anyone who shares their favorite music with other people? I take it you've never made a mix tape for anyone? Or backed anything you have up to cassette to listen to it elsewhere? >Ultimately the guy at the end of the food chain is the musician that created >what you're listening to in the first place. Blah blah blah, sorry, I've heard it all before. These are ECTOPHILES you are talking down to. We know all this, and we buy lots and lots and LOTS of music. We keep some of these musicians in business! None of this has anything to do with what was being discussed, but now, of course, it's going to be the topic of discussion and I can probably safely not read Ecto again for the next few weeks. We've been down this road before, and we're all ultimately arguing about something we all agree on. PEOPLE SHOULD BUY MUSIC AND SUPPORT ARTISTS. As much as humanly possible. I don't appreciate being lumped in with criminals, and I will not accept that title. There's a big big BIG difference between someone running a duplication operation and us. We buy music. We spread music so other people will buy music. I hate how the RIAA has managed to lump music lovers who make copies for their own use and spread music to other music lovers with big-time criminals. They weren't able to do that with cassettes, but they've done it with mp3s. I curse them for that with all my heart. I share music. It's what I do. I used to do it via mix tapes. I used to do it via my radio show. I used to do it via Shoutcast (oy, that's on hold now that we have to move) I now do it through mp3s. The best way to find out about music is to actually hear it. This list is proof of that. I discovered Happy through a tape someone made for me. Today they and I (for accepting it) would be considered "pirates." That truly sucks. Vickie (getting back to it) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 18:12:43 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Subject: Re: cd collecting [Dave Williamson]: > > I'd like to weigh in with two points. > > First, MP3 sound quality is horrible. myth, usually born by people who've been exposed to a poorly encoded 128 kbps MP3 on a cheap PC sound card. sound quality depends on encoding program and bit rate. there is some _really_ bad encoding software out there. one of the best (if not _the_ best) is actually free: LAME. tell it to use the r3mix settings, and you should find the result transparent. combine it with Exact Audio Copy (also free) to get rips without scratces. if you use Ogg Vorbis rather than MP3, you can save some bit rate and diskspace and still maintain transparency. if you don't trust lossy compression for whatever reason, stick to Ogg FLAC. of course, you need to set up your equipment so that you use Digital Analogue Converters of good quality. you can achieve this by sending the decompressed sound stream digitally to your receiver. > Second, I've heard every argument under the sun about music > piracy. _no one_ has suggested pirating music. this is all about enjoying our legally owned music more conveniently. > So if we're going to talk about people getting screwed, and self > defence, I'd like to understand what the rights are of the creator > of the work instead of the poor mistreated consumer who ultimately > doesn't want to pay for anything. this is highly insulting. did you _read_ the other messages on the subject? I spend thousands of dollars on music every year, and I intend to continue to do so. however, if the labels got their way, I would have to run a proprietary OS on my computer, I would not be able to make my own jukebox which learns my likes and dislikes, I would not be able to carry my music around in my mobile phone, etc. etc. what good does it do the artist that my enjoyment of their music is impeded? > I have 100's of LPs in my collection that are as much as 30 years > old, and in mint condition because I take care of them. I have > never had to do anything to copy or preserve them. They will last > my life time. As will the 100's of CDs I've bought since the LP > faded as a viable medium. don't bet on it. the early CDs uses a bad glue which will allow air to pass between the layers, oxidising the metal. this is a huge problem in humid environments (say, Singapore). sunlight will also detoriate discs, so keep them in their cases. - -- Kjetil T. | read and make up your own mind np: mzm: finally we are no one | http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 12:25:08 -0400 From: "Dave Williamson" Subject: RE: cd collecting You and I are not talking about the same thing, and it was not a non-sequitur to the thread that was opened. Excuse me for expressing an opinion. If you really and truly pay for what you keep, more power to you. I wasn't talking about you. I've just had my fill of the arguments for free music distribution and copying based on arguments of "I need a backup", or "it's only for my own use", or "I only copy it to give to friends", blah, blah, blah. I've heard it all before too. Do you have a sharing application installed on your computer? Do you share a directory via that application to the world? Then you are promoting piracy because you have no concept of who is out on the other end receiving what you're sharing, how they're using it, or whether they will ever pay for it in the end. It's one thing for you to send me a recording because I'm interested in an artist and will buy it myself if I like it. But copying and free distribution of music in a completely uncontrolled environment like the Internet is quite another. If you don't fit this category, then again I'm not talking about you. As someone who fought hard in the industry to make it 25 years ago (and ultimately made it a hobby and did something else for a living), I still retain contact with a great many musicians, and invest in young talent by buying them chunks of recording time. I attend live shows whenever I can and directly buy CDs at those shows so that my $ find their way more directly into the musician's pocket. That's my investment over and above not retaining any copied music that I don't go out and buy myself. Seeing what I've seen in my lifetime (and continue to see), I find all of the purest crap offensive when I see the outright abuse of recorded material that is happening today. If that is the price to be paid for people to copy their own stuff, or provide it to others to sample, then the price is too high in my opinion. In the end condoning widespread distribution of recorded material is no different in its net result than record companies gouging artists in their contracts. The only one that gets screwed is the artist. Regarding the rest of your comments about not liking this thread, there are a lot of threads on this mailing list that go on forever that I have no use for. But nobody is sitting there forcing me to read everything, and my delete key works just fine. And I can always unsubscribe and go somewhere else. Last I checked this was an open forum for opinions. I don't agree with yours. You don't agree with mine. Guess that's what makes us humans in the end. Regards, Dave. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecto@smoe.org [mailto:owner-ecto@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Xenu's Sister Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 10:45 AM To: ecto@smoe.org Subject: RE: cd collecting At 08:47 AM 6/18/2003 -0400, Dave wrote: >I'd like to weigh in with two points. > >First, MP3 sound quality is horrible. I rip mine now at the highest quality VBR (variable bit rate) so the sound is pretty good, but you're right in that CDs will always rule, sound-wise. >Second, I've heard every argument under the sun about music piracy. Oh lord, this is a non-sequitur, considering what was being discussed, which was TAKING YOUR OWN CDS AND MAKING MP3s AND LISTENING TO THEM. Wasn't that the topic? If I had time, I'd go back and find out which one of us was the "pirate" you're talking about. Piracy is now anyone who makes mp3s? Piracy is now anyone who listens to mp3s? Piracy is now anyone who shares their favorite music with other people? I take it you've never made a mix tape for anyone? Or backed anything you have up to cassette to listen to it elsewhere? >Ultimately the guy at the end of the food chain is the musician that >created what you're listening to in the first place. Blah blah blah, sorry, I've heard it all before. These are ECTOPHILES you are talking down to. We know all this, and we buy lots and lots and LOTS of music. We keep some of these musicians in business! None of this has anything to do with what was being discussed, but now, of course, it's going to be the topic of discussion and I can probably safely not read Ecto again for the next few weeks. We've been down this road before, and we're all ultimately arguing about something we all agree on. PEOPLE SHOULD BUY MUSIC AND SUPPORT ARTISTS. As much as humanly possible. I don't appreciate being lumped in with criminals, and I will not accept that title. There's a big big BIG difference between someone running a duplication operation and us. We buy music. We spread music so other people will buy music. I hate how the RIAA has managed to lump music lovers who make copies for their own use and spread music to other music lovers with big-time criminals. They weren't able to do that with cassettes, but they've done it with mp3s. I curse them for that with all my heart. I share music. It's what I do. I used to do it via mix tapes. I used to do it via my radio show. I used to do it via Shoutcast (oy, that's on hold now that we have to move) I now do it through mp3s. The best way to find out about music is to actually hear it. This list is proof of that. I discovered Happy through a tape someone made for me. Today they and I (for accepting it) would be considered "pirates." That truly sucks. Vickie (getting back to it) ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V9 #172 **************************