From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V9 #146 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Monday, May 26 2003 Volume 09 : Number 146 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Matrix and the LAST BUFFY (spoilers) [dmw ] Re: Matrix and the LAST BUFFY (spoilers) [Nadyne Mielke ] Re: Matrix [alberto carrasco ] Re: For a limited time only... [FAMarcus@aol.com] Re: Matrix [FAMarcus@aol.com] Re: For a limited time only... [Neal Copperman ] Re: For a limited time only... ["Xenu's Sister" ] Re: For a limited time only... ["Xenu's Sister" ] Re: Jewel's new one [Sue Trowbridge ] Re: Matrix ["Michael Pearce" ] RE: For a limited time only... ["Phillip Hudson" ] Internet Radio - any suggestions? [jonathan soong ] Re: Internet Radio - any suggestions? [Dan_Stark ] RE: For a limited time only... [meredith ] Re: Internet Radio - any suggestions? [meredith ] RE: For a limited time only... ["Xenu's Sister" ] RE: For a limited time only...top ten dislikes - meth please dont hate me ;) [Jason Gordon ] Fwd: Field Day [meredith ] Re: Internet Radio - any suggestions? [Andrew Fries ] RE: For a limited time only... [Steve VanDevender ] Re: For a limited time only... [jonathan soong ] Re: For a limited time only... [Michael Matthews ] Re: For a limited time only... [Nadyne Mielke ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 10:27:15 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: Re: Matrix and the LAST BUFFY (spoilers) On Fri, 23 May 2003, meredith wrote: > (I can't vouch for the accuracy of the transcript, though. I haven't seen > the movie, and don't plan to. _The Matrix_ represents two hours of my life > that I'll never get back, and I'm not making that mistake again.) golly, i'm glad to hear someone else say that! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 10:27:06 -0700 From: Nadyne Mielke Subject: Re: Matrix and the LAST BUFFY (spoilers) On Sunday, May 25, 2003, at 07:27 US/Pacific, dmw wrote: > On Fri, 23 May 2003, meredith wrote: >> (I can't vouch for the accuracy of the transcript, though. I haven't >> seen >> the movie, and don't plan to. _The Matrix_ represents two hours of >> my life >> that I'll never get back, and I'm not making that mistake again.) > golly, i'm glad to hear someone else say that! Amen! Whenever I say that, I usually end up with some frothing geek telling me that I Just Didn't Get It. No, really, I got the point of the film, and I thought that it sucked. That said, I did see the second one, and was highly entertained by it. No-one else was laughing in the same places, mind you. But, hey, that's alright. ;) My best friend and I summed it up afterwards as pretentious, poorly-directed, and predictable. /nm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 13:48:56 +0100 From: Xenus Sister Subject: For a limited time only... Some new goodies at: http://pub3.ezboard.com/fthehomegroundandkatebushnewsandinfoforumfrm9.showMessage?topicID=6.topic and new stuff in the Suspended In Gaffa thread. Vickie (who remembers a time when all Ectophiles were respectful of other Ectophiles passions) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 12:16:52 -0700 (PDT) From: alberto carrasco Subject: Re: Matrix Well, gee. I guess the "frothing geeks" of the world can only aspire to the greatness that is your discerning palate. - --- Nadyne Mielke wrote: > On Sunday, May 25, 2003, at 07:27 US/Pacific, dmw > wrote: > > On Fri, 23 May 2003, meredith wrote: > > >> (I can't vouch for the accuracy of the > transcript, though. I haven't > >> seen > >> the movie, and don't plan to. _The Matrix_ > represents two hours of > >> my life > >> that I'll never get back, and I'm not making that > mistake again.) > > golly, i'm glad to hear someone else say that! > > Amen! Whenever I say that, I usually end up with > some frothing geek > telling me that I Just Didn't Get It. No, really, I > got the point of > the film, and I thought that it sucked. > > That said, I did see the second one, and was highly > entertained by it. > No-one else was laughing in the same places, mind > you. But, hey, > that's alright. ;) My best friend and I summed it > up afterwards as > pretentious, poorly-directed, and predictable. > > /nm __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 15:20:14 EDT From: FAMarcus@aol.com Subject: Re: For a limited time only... In a message dated 5/25/03 2:50:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vickieann@rcn.com writes: > (who remembers a time when all Ectophiles were respectful of other > Ectophiles passions) > yes.........i wonder if one considers when they make a remark like "The Matrix_ represents two hours of my life that I'll never get back, and I'm not making that mistake again" while true for them personally, is implying by expressing it in a public forum that the rest of us who loved it must be morons. fred ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 15:31:19 EDT From: FAMarcus@aol.com Subject: Re: Matrix In a message dated 5/25/03 3:19:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, factoryalberto@yahoo.com writes: > Well, gee. I guess the "frothing geeks" of the world what gives you the right to make a value judgment on anyone here? do you know the people personally? i really don't think anyone cares whether you "get it" or not. or whether you liked it or not. i am certainly not going to label you either way. you might want to consider a little respect for others who do not share your views. fred ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 13:34:05 -0600 From: Neal Copperman Subject: Re: For a limited time only... At 3:20 PM -0400 5/25/03, FAMarcus@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 5/25/03 2:50:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >vickieann@rcn.com writes: > >> (who remembers a time when all Ectophiles were respectful of other >> Ectophiles passions) >> > > yes.........i wonder if one considers when they make a remark like "The >Matrix_ represents two hours of my life that I'll never get back, and I'm not >making that mistake again" while true for them personally, is implying by >expressing it in a public forum that the rest of us who loved it >must be morons. First off - I don't think Meth has ever been rude or insulting to anyone on ecto in the 10+ years that I've been here. When she said she felt she had wasted her time seeing The Matrix, I took it at face value. SHE felt it was a waste of HER time. This thread is quickly going to the place where we can only post positive comments about things, because any negative comment is an implied slam of people who like said music, artist, movie or book. Disagreements aren't personal attacks, and they make the list a whole lot more interesting. neal ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 14:35:14 +0100 From: "Xenu's Sister" Subject: Re: For a limited time only... At 03:20 PM 5/25/2003 -0400, youFAMarcus@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 5/25/03 2:50:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >vickieann@rcn.com writes: > > > (who remembers a time when all Ectophiles were respectful of other > > Ectophiles passions) > > > > yes.........i wonder if one considers when they make a remark like > "The >Matrix_ represents two hours of my life that I'll never get back, and I'm not >making that mistake again" while true for them personally, is implying by >expressing it in a public forum that the rest of us who loved it must be >morons. Personally, I didn't see it like that. I understand that The Matrix isn't for everybody, just as Moulin Rouge or Lord of the Rings or Happy or Kate or anything else isn't. I read meth's expression to apply to herself only. >No-one else was laughing in the same places, mind you. But, hey, that's alright. ;) >My best friend and I summed it up afterwards as pretentious, poorly-directed, and predictable. That's far more personal even if it's not a direct insult. It implies that Matrix fans are idiots, who drool over something that's OBVIOUSLY "pretentious, poorly-directed and predictable." Very smart people like The Matrix movies. People who have more smarts than I have in my little toe are huge Matrix fans and like the philosophy and how it's presenting old, dusty ideas to a new generation. I have nothing to feel inferior about. It's the rudeness, I think. I've been guilty of being rude in Ecto too, but not when it comes to something someone else is passionate about. Beyond the movie and the pilot episode, I've never seen a minute of Buffy, and it never ever EVER crossed my mind, not for one second, to ever complain about how much Buffy gets talked about here. I'm sure that if Ectophiles like it, there's something special about it. I've just never taken the time to get into it. Yet, a small handful of posts about the Matrix movies gets nasty comments. Frankly, anyone who likes Buffy and Xena should not be saying anything about The Matrix being preposterous (not that meth did). It's all fantasy, and sometimes it's all fun, and sometimes it brings up important issues, and sometimes it's very serious. There's no reason to rain on anybody else's parade. Vickie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 14:57:22 +0100 From: "Xenu's Sister" Subject: Re: For a limited time only... I said: > Very smart people like The Matrix movies. People who have more smarts > than I have in my little toe are huge Matrix fans and like the philosophy and how it's > presenting old, dusty ideas to a new generation (Blushing, embarrassed. Dumb'o'me. The sentiment still stands) V (in the midst of this, don't forget the goodies at the Kate forum) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 16:21:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Sue Trowbridge Subject: Re: Jewel's new one On 3 May 2003, Andrew Fries wrote: > Judging by that sample track, her descent from promise to zero is now > complete. It took her a while, but she's finally arrived - say hello to > another Britney! My husband was flipping past VH1 and just called me into the living room - -- "You've gotta come see this. It's JEWEL!!!!!" Yes, indeed, the woman wearing the super-short sexy dress, surrounded by half a dozen gyrating dancers, singing a dance diva-type song was...Jewel. Yikes. - --Sue ------------------------------ Date: 25 May 2003 13:27:01 -0700 From: "Michael Pearce" Subject: Re: Matrix At 1:55 AM -0400 5/24/03, irvin lin wrote: >And strangely, the music didn't bother me it he least. I didn't even notice >it (and I downloaded the soundtrack beforehand just to get myself familiar >with it). I enjoyed the music and thought it fit - until the end when the excreable (sp?) Linkin Park shouted over the closing credits. I had to hold my fingers in my ears. That's one group I would like to set Neo upon. mp ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 14:53:17 -0700 From: "Phillip Hudson" Subject: RE: For a limited time only... Neal Said: "This thread is quickly going to the place where we can only post positive comments about things, because any negative comment is an implied slam of people who like said music, artist, movie or book. Disagreements aren't personal attacks, and they make the list a whole lot more interesting." Well said Neal. One of the things I truly love about this list is that even in highly spirited discussions, everyone maintains a level of civility totally unknown on a lot of other lists. I've seen opinions expressed here that would have raised lynch mobs on other forums. Having gotten to know many Ectos' musical tastes from their writings here, I often find their negative opinions helpful to me in my musical choices; if someone whose tastes are very similar to mine really dislikes a particular artist, then maybe I should not spend too much time on researching them. It doesn't always work that way, but there's also way too much music out there for me to have time to sample anyway. I think musical/film negatives are a very fine topic providing nobody takes anything personally. They are opinions, and all are entitled to them. I feel I may have helped exacerbate the 'negatives' situation with some of my threads ( Whose voice can't you stand?, etc.). While I definitely like to stir things up and generate a little fun on the list, I nonetheless have a real interest in what other people both like *and* dislike; sometimes I'm just interested in why I like an artist others hate, or vice versa. It's nothing personal, and never should be, otherwise it gets elevated to a far loftier position than it merits. How utterly boring would this list be if we all liked exactly the same things? As an example, my recent rant about Ottmar Liebert was simply that; one person's opinion, and if you disagree, that doesn't make you an idiot in my eyes ( and hopefully not vice versa). I just don't 'get' what he's doing in the context of my musical experiences, and the fact that my friends and doubtless a percentage of this list may like him a lot doesn't change my feelings about them one bit. If someone else likes an artist I can't stand, well good for them, and maybe one day they'll play me something that will change my mind. I'm still hoping someone on the list can direct me to a NF CD to that end. And maybe a Michael Stipe song that won't make my ears hurt. Peace and love, dudes Phil np: Nouveau Happy, what else? ;) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 08:44:04 +0930 From: jonathan soong Subject: Internet Radio - any suggestions? Hi everyone, Just started a new job, 9-5 behind a computer. Anyone know of any good Internet Radio stations? I like KCRW and have trawled through the 'Sounds Eclectic' archive, but i'm running low now..! Any suggestions? Cheers Jon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 18:13:10 +0100 From: "Xenu's Sister" Subject: RE: For a limited time only... At 02:53 PM 5/25/2003 -0700, you wrote: >How utterly boring would this list be if we all liked exactly the same >things? Why does all this sound as if it's the few Matrix lovers who are being taken to task? Shades of gaffa 1991! V ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 19:47:08 -0400 From: Dan_Stark Subject: Re: Internet Radio - any suggestions? One of my longstanding favorites, WBER - a college station from Rochester, NY that trains students for radio broadcasting careers. With a playlist like theirs, maybe there's hope for the future of radio after all. Alt-rock and driven with a generous helping of ecto faves like Tori, Ani, Splashdown, Sarah Slean, etc. http://wber.monroe.edu Sirius satellite radio streams many of their channels. Nothing hits the target exactly, but "Alt Nation" and "Left of Center" might be of interest. There's supposed to be a 20-minute time limit but someone posted a list of direct links that bypass that limitation here: http://66.246.14.172/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5019 WXPN Philadelphia is a good NPR station: http://www.wxpn.org I have a bunch of other lesser-known, more eclectic stations bookmarked at work where I listen to Internet radio, but those will have to wait until Tuesday. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 19:49:49 -0400 From: meredith Subject: RE: For a limited time only... Hi, I *knew* this was going to happen. I was about to delete my post without sending it, but then I thought "what the hell, it's only an alternate opinion" and hit "send" anyway. You'd think I'd know by now that that is always a mistake. Since there is obviously a need to clarify the following, here we go: - -- A personal opinion is not a value judgement. - -- I have no problem whatsoever with people who like any of the _Matrix_ movies. - -- I do not think that people who like the _Matrix_ movies are morons. - -- I respect their opinion, and their right to like any movie they damn well please. - -- By the same token, I have no problem whatsoever with people who don't like things I really like (since _Xena_ and _Buffy_ were brought up as specific examples, let's use those here as well). I don't think they're morons, and I respect their opinion and their right to dislike anything they damn well please. Furthermore, if I may presume to add this in Nadyne's defense: I daresay she would be the first person to refer to herself as a "frothing geek" when it comes to several subjects (Tori comes most immediately to mind, though I know there are more). I took it as a term of endearment, myself. I'm proud to be a "frothing geek" on several fronts. _The Matrix_ just happens not to be one of them. Is it really that big a deal?? =============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth =============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://muzak.smoe.org =============================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 20:03:00 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Re: Internet Radio - any suggestions? Hi, Jon inquired: >Anyone know of any good Internet Radio stations? WFUV (http://www.wfuv.org) has quite a lot of stuff in its archives, and also streams live. Of particular ecto interest would be erstwhile ecto-lurker Rita Houston's "The Whole Wide World" show, as well as Vin Scelsa's legendary "Idiot's Delight". Jon Platt's "Sunday Breakfast" is also good, for those who like the folk music side of things. They stream live as well, though I'm not sure what would be on during an Australian work day (this station, as well as the others listed below are all in the Eastern US time zone). WUMB (http://www.wumb.org) has a live stream. It's a folk music station, so if that's not your cuppa than you'll want to give this one a miss. But if that's your thing, this is a pretty good station. I've been listening to it at work for the past several weeks, myself. For the truly eclectic, check out WFMU (http://www.wfmu.org) and WPKN (http://www.wpkn.org), two free-form, 100% listener-supported (ergo, no formats, playlists or interests to kowtow to) community radio stations. WFMU has very extensive archives on its site -- I think the most ecto-related would be the shows of Irene Trudell and Irwin Chusid (Irwin is a friend of Beth Sorrentino's, so Suddenly, Tammy! fans should keep an eye on his schedule b/c she shows up on his show from time to time). WPKN can only support 25 Internet listeners at a time, and its server seems to be down more than it's up lately, but if you can get through the most ectophilic shows would be Terri Lagerstedt on Mondays, Jim Motavalli and Pam Smith on Tuesdays, Chris Teskey on Wednesdays, Rod Richardson on Thursdays, ectophile Valerie Richardson and ardent Happy fans Kathy DiMeno and Ray Terlaga on Fridays, and Colette and Binnie on occasional Saturdays. (The online program guide will tell you what time Eastern all of these folks are on.) Of course, all of these stations are listener-supported, so they'd appreciate a click on the donation links on their respective web sites to help keep their streams going... Happy listening! =============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth =============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://muzak.smoe.org =============================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 19:13:41 +0100 From: "Xenu's Sister" Subject: RE: For a limited time only... At 07:49 PM 5/25/2003 -0400, meth wrote: >Hi, > > > >I *knew* this was going to happen. I was about to delete my post without >sending it, but then I thought "what the hell, it's only an alternate >opinion" and hit "send" anyway. You'd think I'd know by now that that is >always a mistake. I had no problem whatsoever with what you wrote. Why is it a mistake? What am I missing? Did I not send you a smiley? Did only one other person in the whole of Ecto say something specific about your post? Did 2 other Matrix people come to your defense? What? >Since there is obviously a need to clarify the following, here we go: No need to clarify, I agree with everything you say. >Furthermore, if I may presume to add this in Nadyne's defense: I daresay >she would be the first person to refer to herself as a "frothing geek" >when it comes to several subjects (Tori comes most immediately to mind, >though I know there are more). Then maybe she could have been a bit more polite about it. How are we supposed to know that "frothing geek" in the same post calling something we love "pretentious, poorly-directed, and predictable." and that it, let me check the wording, oh yeah, "sucks" is supposed to be endearing? Sorry, it whooshed me. I have no problems with people who dislike something I love. But, a little respect for your (her) fellow Ectophiles would be nice. Don't some of us remember how we felt when we were run out of gaffa?? (A quite different situation, to be sure, but it started when someone complained that we were talking about Happy too much, and we were talking about Happy a LOT more than the short conversation some of us had about The Matrix). At least I don't remember (maybe I've blocked it) anyone saying that Happy "sucks." V. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 20:30:58 -0400 From: Jason Gordon Subject: RE: For a limited time only...top ten dislikes - meth please dont hate me ;) - -- By the same token, I have no problem whatsoever with people who don't like things I really like (since _Xena_ and _Buffy_ were brought up as specific examples, let's use those here as well). I don't think they're morons, and I respect their opinion and their right to dislike anything they damn well please. OoOoOoOoh - I better take this chance to list the top ten things I dislike [before Meth changes her mind and decides I am a moron :) ] 1. Ignorant People 2. Virginia Woolfe (to the lighthouse was the most painful book I ever had to read) 3. How To Make An American Quilt / Troop Beverly Hills / The English Patient- three movies I wish I had the 2 hours back (except the english patient that felt like 2 weeks long) 4. Xena/Buffy (sorry meth) 5. Spam (internet and the "meat" variety) 6. Thrash Metal/Gangsta Rap/The Backstreet Boys 7. Airline Restrooms 8. Fennel (any vegetable that tastes like licorice - eewwwwww) 9. Empty Wallet Syndrome 10. Frothing Geeks ;) One of the beautiful things about ecto is that I can say that I do like the jewel single...or that I really dont care for Kate Bush (now Meth is really gonna think I'm a moron - first xena then kate) :) - -Jason Of course the list of what I like is longer than the list I dislike. I like ecto. And thats good enough for me!!!! np Bel Canto - Dorothy's Victory ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 19:44:38 +0100 From: "Xenu's Sister" Subject: RE: For a limited time only...top ten dislikes - meth please dont hate me ;) There's no need for that. You're being ruder than Nadyne. Maybe Matrix fans do come off as asses sometimes. I've tried not to :) V ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 19:59:06 +0100 From: "Xenu's Sister" Subject: RE: For a limited time only... Unless my sarcasm meter has completely whacked out. In any case, to return this to it's original purpose (without any footnotes, my fault), I'm making mp3s of all of Happy's concerts and pulling songs from them. I've got a long ways to go, but what should have been done long ago is finally being done, letting people at least hear some of the interesting tidbits. More important, in my mind, is saving some of this stuff for posterity, since the tapes are getting old and fragile. Long after the Wachowski Brothers have gone to that Matrix in the sky, people will still be listening to and loving Happy Rhodes, and they'll wonder what was wrong with the people of the 21st century that Happy wasn't the biggest megastar in the universe. Forgotten tapes in attics or basements will be discovered, and they'll get sent to professional restorers to try and salvage another piece of the Happy career puzzle. They'll no doubt laugh at our petty squabbles, while admiring us for recognizing Happy for the gem she is. We are special. We are lucky. V ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 21:45:59 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Fwd: Field Day Hi, A friend has two tickets to an upcoming festival on Long Island that she has to sell -- she asked me to see if any ectophiles are interested. If you are, please respond to her at the e-dress below. Thanks! >Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 18:26:31 -0700 (PDT) >From: Marla Tiara >Subject: Field Day > >OK here's the scoop. > >The Field Day Festival is June 7 and 8, 2003 in >Calverton, NY (Long Island). The website is >www.fielddayfest.com > >I have 2 tickets. Each one is for both days of bands, >no camping. I paid $328.15 for the 2. I would take: > >Anything over $250 for the 2 >Anything over $145 for just 1. > >$70 a day to see bands like Radiohead and Blur and the >Beastie Boys and Bright Eyes and Liz Phair and Beth >Orton and Sigur Ros and Underworld! What a steal! ;) > >Let me know. Thanks! >Marla =============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth =============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://muzak.smoe.org =============================================== ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 2003 11:49:19 +1000 From: Andrew Fries Subject: Re: Internet Radio - any suggestions? On Mon, 2003-05-26 at 09:14, jonathan soong wrote: > Anyone know of any good Internet Radio stations? For something different you could try 2 Australian stations: 2SER at is a community station, very eclectic and left-wing, does a lot of current affairs and community news but also plays some obscure and occasionally interesting music. Unfortunately they stream in windows media player format only (for Linux users, it can be accessed with mplayer) or JJJ, the alternative radio gone somewhat mainstream, on in windows media player or real player formats. - --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Grrr...Arrgh!" -- Mutant - -- 11:41:43 up 20 days, 22:32, 4 users, load average: 0.27, 0.11, 0.04-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 20:13:29 -0600 From: Neal Copperman Subject: RE: For a limited time only...top ten dislikes - meth please dont hate me ;) At 8:30 PM -0400 5/25/03, Jason Gordon wrote: > 3. How To Make An American Quilt / Troop Beverly Hills / The English >Patient- three movies I wish I had the 2 hours back (except the english >patient that felt like 2 weeks long) > 7. Airline Restrooms My last flight to Europe buzzed by in a flash while I sat in the bathroom watching the English Patient :) If only I had those Indian fennel snacks, life would have been perfect (though I much prefer the candy coated ones to the plain ones). neal ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 19:29:27 -0700 From: Steve VanDevender Subject: RE: For a limited time only... Xenu's Sister writes: > At 02:53 PM 5/25/2003 -0700, you wrote: > > >How utterly boring would this list be if we all liked exactly the same > >things? > > Why does all this sound as if it's the few Matrix lovers who are being > taken to task? It doesn't seem to me that the people who aren't fond of the Matrix movies are attacking the people who do. The topic's been brought up, and people are expressing their opinions, and if you allow for a reasonable amount of hyperbole I don't see anyone personally attacking anyone else. In my case, I can understand both sides. I liked both movies, but not without reservations. I can certainly see why the people who don't like those movies don't like them, although I'm not as put off by the silly or clumsy parts of those movies as they are. But neither do I think of them as particularly sophisticated explorations of philosopical themes, mainly because I've seen far better. At best, I find them evocative -- if you have been exposed to other works which examine the philosophical nature of virtual reality, then they will certainly remind you of those other works, and there's even a certain amount of "spot-the-reference". Unfortunately the moments of the movie that actually try to present the philosopical stuff are scattered through a bunch of stylish, flashy, technically interesting, but almost entirely gratuitous fight scenes. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 19:34:33 -0700 From: Nadyne Mielke Subject: Re: For a limited time only... On Sunday, May 25, 2003, at 11:13 US/Pacific, Xenu's Sister wrote: [snip] > Then maybe she could have been a bit more polite about it. How are we > supposed to know that "frothing geek" in the same post calling > something we love "pretentious, poorly-directed, and predictable." and > that it, let me check the wording, oh yeah, "sucks" is supposed to be > endearing? Sorry, it whooshed me. Point the first: I didn't say that everyone who liked the Matrix is a 'frothing geek'. Point the second: I didn't realise that a low opinion of the film means that I have a low opinion of everyone who likes it. As far as I'm concerned, it all comes down to different strokes. You can, if you wish, choose to believe that I called y'all 'idiots' (to quote your response to another poster) when I referred to the film as 'pretentious, poorly-directed, and predictable'. I guess I just didn't realise that saying 'I don't like this, and these are the reasons' as insulting everyone who does like it. Live and learn. /nm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 19:46:12 -0700 From: Steve VanDevender Subject: RE: For a limited time only... meredith writes: > Furthermore, if I may presume to add this in Nadyne's defense: I daresay > she would be the first person to refer to herself as a "frothing geek" when > it comes to several subjects (Tori comes most immediately to mind, though I > know there are more). I took it as a term of endearment, myself. I'm > proud to be a "frothing geek" on several fronts. _The Matrix_ just happens > not to be one of them. Is it really that big a deal?? I once was telling a friend about a trip I was taking to the USENIX LISA conference. He asked what that was, and I answered somewhat metaphorically "It's a big old geek-o-rama." He asked me "Why are you so down on it?" and I said "I'm not; it's fun to get together with a bunch of geek friends and do geek things." Having spent a lot of time being a self-professed "geek" I had forgotten that people who aren't acquainted with "geek culture" are likely to still think of it as pejorative. When a friend of mine was asking me about whether I wanted to get in on a trip to see _The Matrix Reloaded_ on opening night, I had this vision of seeing a few too many overly-nerdy fans in trenchcoats and sunglasses, or even worse tight black leather :-). I also had the idea that I could bring a supply of red gelatin capsules and if I saw anyone who looked a little too fanboy, I could walk up to them, quietly drop the red pill into their palm, and walk away. Of course, I realized the irony that the joke itself is very nerdy. In any case, there was a Tympanic show in town that night so I was much more into that than into seeing _Matrix Reloaded_ on opening night and as it turns out so was my friend. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 20:49:18 -0600 From: Neal Copperman Subject: Re: For a limited time only... At 2:43 PM +0100 5/25/03, Xenu's Sister wrote: >At 01:34 PM 5/25/2003 -0600, Neal wrote: > >>This thread is quickly going to the place where we can only post >>positive comments about things, because any negative comment is an >>implied slam of people who like said music, artist, movie or book. >> >>Disagreements aren't personal attacks, and they make the list a >>whole lot more interesting. > > >That's not fair. Negative things have been said about the movie(s) >(I consider "boring" to be very negative) but I just countered with >an "I disagree and here's why". meth was negative, but it was >personal to her. I believe Nadyne's post was rude to those of us who >liked it. Rude and negative are two very different things. > >And fred, I think you read Alberto's post wrong. > >V I think this note from Vickie came only to me, though it was clearly intended for the list. I was going to let it go, as I think this thread has already exhausted it's value. However, I agree pretty strongy with what Vickie nicely summarized here. I think the line for rude is blurry and Nadyne's post didn't bother me, but I accept that people's lines are different. If I have anything to add, It's simply that people considering posting something potentially insulting should think about it's impact and the way they are saying it. (Don't refrain from stating your opinions, just try to keep it away from the rude line.) For people reading something that strikes them as rude, keep in mind that it's only someone's opinion and try to shrug it off. FWIW, I sort of started this by an offhand comment that the Matrix was boring. That was a little flip. I actually didn't think it was boring, but I WAS bored for long stretchs of the movie, probably a good 30 to 40 minutes. I actually enjoyed Vickie's written version of the Matrix far more then the version that I saw. It contained all the parts I liked, with the boring, tedious parts removed. As a (potentially) interesting aside, I find that strong negative phrases can be used equally well for things I love and things I hate. I don't think "pretentious obvious drivel" is an unreasonable description of the Matrix. Though it fits for tons of movies I love as well. I have no aversion to what many consdier pretension or drivel. My favorite comparison of singers is Michael Bolton and Bono. Almost all the words I use to describe Michael Bolton (who I abhore) can be used equally well to describe Bono (who I'm rather fond of). I hate the way Bolton oversings everything and tries to convince me that it's passionate and relevant. But Bono does the same thing, and I love the way Bono brings an passion and an intensity to his singing. neal nr: Ahab's Wife - Sena Jeter Naslund ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 12:25:34 +0930 From: jonathan soong Subject: Re: For a limited time only... nah i didn't like it either matrix reloaded was shit it logically follows that those who liked it are shit too and i'm currently frothing away at my unix boxen ! Nadyne Mielke wrote: > On Sunday, May 25, 2003, at 11:13 US/Pacific, Xenu's Sister wrote: > > [snip] > >> Then maybe she could have been a bit more polite about it. How are we >> supposed to know that "frothing geek" in the same post calling >> something we love "pretentious, poorly-directed, and predictable." >> and that it, let me check the wording, oh yeah, "sucks" is supposed >> to be endearing? Sorry, it whooshed me. > > > Point the first: I didn't say that everyone who liked the Matrix is a > 'frothing geek'. > > Point the second: I didn't realise that a low opinion of the film > means that I have a low opinion of everyone who likes it. As far as > I'm concerned, it all comes down to different strokes. > > You can, if you wish, choose to believe that I called y'all 'idiots' > (to quote your response to another poster) when I referred to the film > as 'pretentious, poorly-directed, and predictable'. > > I guess I just didn't realise that saying 'I don't like this, and > these are the reasons' as insulting everyone who does like it. Live > and learn. > > /nm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 23:18:53 -0400 From: Michael Matthews Subject: Re: For a limited time only... Steve VanDevender wrote: > Having spent a lot of time being a self-professed "geek" I had forgotten > that people who aren't acquainted with "geek culture" are likely to > still think of it as pejorative. Heh. I had to educate my fiancee on the difference between "geek" (which I proudly bear) and "nerd" (which I don't), knowing full well that my definitions of the two (one is skilled at some form of technology or other not-necessarily-mainstream artform; the other is a geek whose social skills are lacking) are probably shared by at most two people now. Her friends are still amazed that I don't mind being called a geek. I'm perhaps the last person at my job who hasn't seen the movie yet, at least of the crowd that wants to see it. Had plenty of chances, given that a vendor gave us a *free* pre-screening and there was even a showing in one of our auditoriums that I was offered a ticket to. Too bad I was on call then. Too bad I was covering on-call for other groups who went to see it in waves, and now I'm techically recovering from outpatient surgery so I can't justify going to see it until next weekend. I loved the first movie and I'm dying to see the second. The red pill just isn't working yet. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 13:57:03 +1000 From: "Amanda Williams" Subject: Wendy Rule at 303 Hi there I attended Wendy's performance at the great venue 303 in Northcote on Friday night. Wendy had just returned from a mammoth road trip up the east coast of Australia with Rachel on cello to launch her new album, The Lotus Eaters, and had not had much time to publicise the event. The result was an immensely intimate and pleasant evening. I sat back in a red-velvet upholstered armchair watching Wendy's lithe, simian moves and listening to her ethereal sounds. She performed most of the songs from the album - Horses, Everywhere and Nowhere, Penelope, Strange Little Soul Bird, The Lotus Eaters, La Femme de la Mer, The Water, The Raven Song, Descend to the Ocean and a spectacular a capella rendition of "My Heart is Like an Open Flower". She also performed some of her songs from her first album. The thing that made the night for me was that there was this old violinist who had come along with his instrument, who asked Wendy if he could jam with her. Wendy agreed and he took part in Descend to the Ocean, and it turned out that he was excellent at improv, and really added a whole new dimension to the sound. She performed from 10pm to 12.20 with only a 15 minute break, so it was well worth the $10 admission fee. She really enjoyed the venue, and was talking about doing some Sunday 'in residence' sessions that would be far less formal, and could potentially be improv sessions. Amanda ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ooooooooooooooooooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The man who realizes "It is the Supreme Life that shines in and through all life" does not waste words. His Pleasures and his love are then all in the soul. He becomes the most enlightened among the philosophers. - -Mundak Upanishad, III-(I)-4 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 21:34:23 -0700 From: Nadyne Mielke Subject: Re: For a limited time only... On Sunday, May 25, 2003, at 20:18 US/Pacific, Michael Matthews wrote: > Heh. I had to educate my fiancee on the difference between "geek" > (which I proudly bear) and "nerd" (which I don't), knowing full well > that my definitions of the two (one is skilled at some form of > technology or other not-necessarily-mainstream artform; the other is a > geek whose social skills are lacking) are probably shared by at most > two people now. Her friends are still amazed that I don't mind being > called a geek. I do have to admit that it didn't even occur to me that some people might get their knickers knotted over the word 'geek'. I live in Silicon Valley, and work for IBM Research. We're all geeks here. Even my mom (bless her heart, she's afraid of a mobile phone, let alone anything as complicated as a computer) has learned that 'geek' is perfectly acceptable for anyone that she's met here. I never remember that other (generally non-techie) folks may consider it highly insulting. /nm ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V9 #146 **************************