From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V9 #143 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Friday, May 23 2003 Volume 09 : Number 143 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: MATRIX - SPOILERS AHEAD! [Andrew Fries ] Nerina, Leona, Emiliana, oh my. [irvin lin ] Today's your birthday, friend... [Mike Matthews ] Re: MATRIX, ["Xenu's Sister" ] Eliza Gilkyson in London [adamk@zoom.co.uk] Re: New Kinnie Starr [broadway jack ] re: new Delirium album ["Mike Gray" ] Re: Eliza Gilkyson in London [Leon van Stuivenberg ] Re: Eliza Gilkyson in London ["neal copperman" ] Re: MATRIX vickies version [FAMarcus@aol.com] Re: MATRIX vickies version [Steve VanDevender ] Re: MATRIX vickies version [Sander ] Re: MATRIX, [jonathan soong ] Re: Eliza Gilkyson in London [meredith ] Re: New Kinnie Starr [meredith ] RE: New Kinnie Starr ["William Mazur" ] RE: New Kinnie Starr [Andrew Fries ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 May 2003 16:21:53 +1000 From: Andrew Fries Subject: Re: MATRIX - SPOILERS AHEAD! On Wed, 2003-05-21 at 17:51, irvin lin wrote: > Um yeah, I actually found the new MATRIX RELOADED a bit of let down too (did > someone say they thought it was boring? I wouldn't call it boring, just a > let down). SPOILERS AHEAD! I was very afraid, but now, far from feeling let down, I am relieved. I can see some problems with the execution; Yes, that rave scene could be safely left out. I am unimpressed with soundtrack in this Matrix. In the first one it worked very well, but in this one it just annoys... and so on. But these are minor glitches. The most important issue for me was, will the sequel make sense of THE STORY? The background, the world - the Oracle, and all that nonsense about human batteries? Well, as far as I am concerned, it did, or rather, it made them irrelevant. The Oracle *was* an AI, as I always thought. And the way I see it now, the world Neo emerged into once unplugged is nothing more than another level of the Matrix, a meta-Matrix. This is the message of that spoon given to Neo with such urgency, this is why Agent Smith can enter this world, and why Neo can now stop the sentinels. This is cool, and unexpected: The whole Matrix trilogy turns out to be, in a sense, just a modern reworking of a story by Stanislaw Lem, written sometime in the 50s. The Architect is none other than Professor Corcoran with his boxes... go, read some Stanislaw Lem :) One thing is true, free will or not, Neo is still a tool. Agent Smith is right observing he uses all but the most important muscle! If he truly realised his powers instead of choosing doors and flapping about Superman style, he'd just kick the shit out of the Architect. But it's true enough he was never especially bright. Then again, what do you expect - he is just a program... - --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Grrr...Arrgh!" -- Mutant - -- 16:00:24 up 17 days, 2:50, 3 users, load average: 0.31, 0.09, 0.02-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 23:20:21 -0700 From: irvin lin Subject: Nerina, Leona, Emiliana, oh my. > From: "Mike Gray" > Hi, > > [first time poster.. eek] Hi welcome! > Nice to see Nerina Pallot on the list of vocalists. As I'm sure most people > don't know who she is Don't be so sure. There are a lot of well informed people on this list. ;) > - she released an album entitled "Dear Frustrated > Superstar" on Polydor UK a couple of years back now which I thought was a > stunning record. However, Polydor in their infinite wisdom decided to > withdraw the album during an arena support tour with Bryan Adams on the > promise of re-issuing it, and never did and then dropped her because of lack > of sales. (This, I believe, is what they call 'record company logic') > > However, according to Matt Chamberlain's web-site, she's currently recording > with him so presumably she has a new deal, which is really good news. If you > can find a copy of Dear Frustrated Superstar, it's well worth checking out. WHAT? She got dropped? Actually I was surprised that her album wasn't ever released here in the States. I found that it fit right in with the then current trend of "singer-songwriter, youthful poppy non-pop teenage girl" thing that was typified with MICHELLE BRANCH and VANESSA CARLTON and then devolved into singers like AVRIL LAVIGNE. NERINA's album should have been a hit here stateswise, but then again I thought LEONA NAESS should have had a hit with her last album I TRIED TO ROCK BUT YOU ONLY ROLL, but alas it went nowhere. I believe she is currently ready to release an new EP, though not necessarily on her same label. Anyway, from what I heard, POLYDOR actually pulled the NERINA's album to re-issue it with a few new tracks (I think one song "photograph" was suppose to be a single, and was featured on a soundtrack? Or maybe I'm wrong about that I can't remember). Anyway instead of reissuing the album, they told her to go back into the studio and just record new material. In the meanwhile, it sounds like she just got lost in the shuffle....and then now it looks like she's been dropped. Dang. Anyway she had potential. I thought the album was pretty decent, though not stunning. Definitely someone to keep an eye out for. I'd been interested to see what she does next. Thanks for the info. On that note, does anyone know what ever happened to EMILIANA TORRINI? I believe she recorded few songs with THIEVERY CORPORATION, but not quite sure what else she is up to now. Sure would like to hear a new one, as I quite enjoyed her previous effort (LOVE IN THE TIME OF SCIENCE). I loaned it out awhile ago to an acquaintance along with a few other CD's and I have yet to get any of them back. Damn him. Irvin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 03:00:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Mike Matthews Subject: Today's your birthday, friend... i*i*i*i*i*i i*i*i*i*i*i *************** *****HAPPY********* **************BIRTHDAY********* *************************************************** *************************************************************************** ******************* Lisa Laane (Laane@cs.stanford.edu) ******************** *************************************************************************** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Lisa Laane Tue May 22 1973 Gemini Jewel Kilcher Thu May 23 1974 The Gem Chandra Sriram Thu May 27 1971 Gemini Taina Sahlander Mon May 28 1973 Gemini Urs Stafford Thu May 31 1973 Give Way Perttu Yli-Krekola Thu June 02 1966 Kaksoset Alex Gibbs Thu June 08 1967 Betelgeuse Gleb Zverev Tue June 09 1964 Gemini Sonja Juchniewich Mon June 10 1963 Pegasus Joerg Plate Mon June 12 1967 Gemini Chris Montville Tue June 13 1978 Gemini Ectoplasm (original name) Mailing List Thu June 13 1991 Fuzzier blue Paul Huesman Wed June 14 1967 coffee drinker Mark R. Susskind Wed June 15 1966 Gemini Dave Upham Sun June 15 1958 Gemini Mike Matthews Mon June 16 1969 Pr. SAFH Albert Philipsen Mon June 17 1968 Gemini Neal R. Copperman Thu June 17 1965 Gemini Susan Kay Anderson Tue June 17 1969 Gemini Ecto-The Mailing List Tue June 18 1991 Fuzzy blue Tracy Barber Mon June 18 1956 Gemini Greg Dunn Thu June 18 1953 + Paul Blair Thu June 18 1964 Objectivist Mike Connell Sat June 18 1955 Apollo David Lubkin Fri June 20 1958 OurLady Marisa Wood Fri June 20 1969 Gemini Cheri Villines Sun June 20 1965 Gemini-Leo rising Ray Misra Sat June 20 1970 Gemini Nik Popa Sun June 22 1969 Cancer - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 05:58:36 +0100 From: "Xenu's Sister" Subject: Re: MATRIX, At 12:51 AM 5/21/2003 -0700, Irvin wrote: >Um yeah, I actually found the new MATRIX RELOADED a bit of let down too (did >someone say they thought it was boring? I wouldn't call it boring, just a >let down). > >I was expecting a movie with more layers (like the first one) and instead I I saw a completely different movie. There are SEVERAL layers in this film, and it presents much to think about and chew over. It builds on and expands and delves deeper into the world we were introduced to in the first movie. It's much more talky and the action scenes (the car chase, the fight with 100 Smiths) only take up a small part of the whole. I've seen it twice and don't feel I caught a fraction of what was going on. SPOILER: I don't know where my head was at, but I missed, the first time, that Agent Smith is now in Zion, and that the Oracle helped program the Matrix, and that the Oracle isn't reading the "future" when she gives prophecies, she's consulting the past. And, to go along with that, the realization that it's not just a couple hundred years after the machines have taken over, it has to be thousands of years. The humans in the vats have been evolving). I have to see it again. It's fun to talk about and deconstruct (not that I'm going to do too much of that here) and it's full of nearly as many references (homages, tips of the hat, *not* rip offs) just like the first movie. Everything has a meaning, even the names of characters. Merovingian, who has fought "The One" before, several times, he's an old hand at it. Was he once one of the Ones? Merovingians, the first Frankish ruling dynasty, whose "rule was disturbed by chronic warfare among aristocrats and rivals for power" (according to one of the many web pages about them). Persephone, Merovingian's wife, was she once a Trinity and is that why she wanted Neo's kiss and why she told Trinity that it wouldn't last? Persephone, daughter of Demeter and Zeus, was the wife of Hades - this means something, and it's not mashed potatos. It's fun and fascinating to speculate about things like that. Is it art? Hell yeah. Is it deep? Well, how many other summer blockbuster movies take on theology and philosophy? It's deep in that there are levels and layers and ideas and discoveries to be made *if you choose to look for them*. If you (not you, but anyone) don't, it's still a pretty good action flick. In the end, is it all self-indulgent mental wanking? What of it? Isn't all philosophy self-indulgent mental wanking? I mean, you're born, you live and die. People do it all the time. It's been done billions and billions of times. No biggie. But some people still take the time to wonder about what reality is, who we are, where we came from, why are we here and does it all mean anything. Nothing wrong with that. and, if a movie millions of people are going to see can insert some of those ideas and cause deeper thoughts than where you parked your car and where to go to eat, isn't that a GOOD thing? If anyone says no, then Hollywood has quite a few upcoming movies that will be right up their alley, such as Dumb and Dumber. (That's not directed to anyone here, but I'm appalled by the dismissal and hatred on other forums. I just want to zap those people into a Pokemon movie.) >felt like I was watching a video game. The fight scenes (though a bit too >CGI for me) were admittedly quite nice eye candy, but the plot lacked, and >that whole ZION DANCE/SEX SCENE was incredibly useless. That should have >been a DVD only "deleted scene" if you ask me. Needless to say, I disagree strongly. What would you (again, not necessarily you) do if you found out you had 24 hours to live? Hide, cower in fear and cry? Loot and pillage, civilized society be damned? Or be with people you love and party like it's 1999 (ha!)? That was defiance, a big "fuck you" to the machines. That was human contact. That was dancing away the anxiety, fear, doubt and uncertainty. That was, to me, incredibly powerful and moving, especially so once we find out what we find out later in the movie. It touched me much more the second time I saw the film. Anyway, I didn't find the movie boring at all. I probably could have done without the action scenes, because I wanted more of everything else (more Matrix, more Zion, Oracle, Architect, Key Maker, Counselor, more everything) but they do look cool, and they fit well in the plot, so it's ok. My only beef would be, like Andrew, with the soundtrack. It pales in comparison to the first movie. November cannot come fast enough for me. (Btw, I also want the Due South pilot on DVD. I'd buy it in a heartbeat. I loved that show. I was hooked by the pilot, so it's worth getting if available.) Vickie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 14:45:34 +0100 From: adamk@zoom.co.uk Subject: Eliza Gilkyson in London I owe Amazon.com a big debt, here  it was one of their "If you liked x, you'll like y" messages that set me on to Eliza Gilkyson in the first place. Last night she finally made it to England, playing the Borderline in London to an appreciative audience. Apparently she's been getting play from Radio 2, which seems to have gone from being the Cheese Central of my youth to being subversively ecto (other artists promoted on there include Juliet Turner and the Indigo Girls!). Eliza's music is more country than I'd normally listen to, but she puts it across with such beauty, humour and grace, that it goes down a treat. Taking the stage with an acoustic guitar and accompanied only by another guitarist (yes, she mentioned his name several times, and I missed it each time) she wove together a wonderful evening of music and rambling, fascinating anecdotes. Some time ago, Neal kindly sent me a recording of a living room concert she did, but I'd forgotten how downright funny she is. Normally, this kind of inter-song talk can really irritate me, but I could have listened to her all night. One story started to be about guitarists, and somehow ended up being about a naked Jerry Garcia. Apart from generous helpings of her back-catalogue (including one so old her accompanist didn't know it, but rose to the challenge, anyway) she also debuted a couple of new songs, born out of current events, that were as powerful and moving as anything she's ever done, played us her contribution to the Greg Brown tribute album (which sounds great, but can someone tell me who Greg Brown is? I was the only one at the Borderline who didn't know!) and rounded it all off with an encore of "Bear Necessities" (her dad wrote it) which had everyone singing along, and realising how little of it they actually knew. It was a beautiful, moving, and thoroughly charming evening, and Eliza seemed encouraged by the response, promising to return to England soon. adam k. - ------------------------------------------------ This mail sent through http://webmail.zoom.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 10:07:52 -0400 From: broadway jack Subject: Re: New Kinnie Starr one time at band camp, Neal Copperman said: >For those who might care, Maple Music is now carrying a new CD by Kinnie >Starr. oops. i ordered that a few weeks ago from lodestar and forgot to mention it here. i haven't gotten it yet -- probably because i also ordered martin tielli's new one, _operation infinite joy_, with which he is taking his damn sweet time finishing up. *whine* if i ever get either record, maybe i'll actually post something about them. yikes. i just had a weird thought: kinnie starr is to music as eliza dushku is to acting. please don't tell either of them that i said this. i'm sure either would kick my ass. on an unrelated note: did anyone record mary lee's corvette on the world cafe yesterday? i was going to record it last night for someone and managed to muck it up. woj ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 15:18:48 +0100 From: "Mike Gray" Subject: re: new Delirium album Hi Jason / All, > Welcome to the group - now that you've posted once you wont stop :) You'll probably regret saying that. ;) > I actually picked up Nerina's album a few weeks ago - I am enjoying it a > lot. Good to hear that people are still able to get hold of it. As I say, it was deleted by Polydor sometime last year in their infinite wisdom. > One of the other vocalists from the upcoming Delerium (Jael) fronts a > wonderful band called Lunik - I think it definately would appeal to many > ecto-folk :) and now that it is released on Nettwerk, it is easier to track > down than the swiss copy... Anyone in the UK might want to order their copy of the Delerium album from www.play.com - they're doing a version with a limited edition bonus EP for under 10 British Pounds including delivery, which strikes me as a pretty decent deal. Extremely handy for US imports. Conversely, US people who want to get hold of UK albums that are fairly mainstream could do worse than try www.cd-wow.com who sell UK albums for 9 UK Pounds including worldwide delivery. It's primarily chart stuff, though. I bought the new Cerys Matthews album today (ex-Catatonia) which is a big departure for her - very folk, acoustic, lots of banjo and fiddle. It has a track written by The Handsome Family among self-penned, traditional and other songs (one of which is in Welsh!). I'm not quite sure it's for me. FWIW: I gather there's a few Charlotte Martin fans on here. I run a fan-site for her @ www.silverhoney.co.uk - it's early days yet, but there might some stuff on there of interest to people who like her. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 18:36:50 +0200 From: Leon van Stuivenberg Subject: Re: Eliza Gilkyson in London adamk@zoom.co.uk wrote: > like y" messages that set me on to Eliza Gilkyson in the first place. Last Maybe in addition you'd also enjoy this: Iain Matthews, Eliza Gilkyson & Ad Vanderveen - "More Than a Song" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 19:11:38 -0000 From: "neal copperman" Subject: Re: Eliza Gilkyson in London Glad you enjoyed the show so much Adam! Eliza has become a real favorite of mine in the last few years. The last new song I heard was "Tender Mercies", which was brilliant. Made me very eager for her next album, whenever that might be. neal ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 15:16:56 EDT From: FAMarcus@aol.com Subject: Re: MATRIX vickies version In a message dated 5/22/03 7:00:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vickieann@rcn.com writes: > November cannot come fast enough for me. > > nice job vickie.......you verbalized my thoughts on the movie almost completely. i've tired in the last week trying to "explain" to people what i saw......and they didn't. i think a problem for a lot of people other than the ones who missed all the plot points, is that seeing the first movie was like having sex for the first time. it's opening that door for the first time. it will never be the same even if its better. you have to have a mind set going into the movie that you understand you can not relive that first initial thrill of discovery. i've only seen the second once but i felt like an old computer with limited ram trying to play a new video game when i came out of the theatre. i was overwhlemed by both the visuals and the story. as the days go by i'm piecing it together better and will be better equipped when i see it the second time. i think it was one amazing god damn movie.............or should i say one half movie. and i will patiently wait until november for the second half. this will make one incredible marathon 3 dvd sitting some day. fred ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 13:53:34 -0700 From: Steve VanDevender Subject: Re: MATRIX vickies version I went to see _The Matrix Reloaded_ last night. Overall, I enjoyed it, although I went in with somewhat low expectations -- I also liked _The Matrix_, but to me it rode a fine line between evocative and hokey, and as we all know sequels are often underwhelming. The story has a fair amount of depth and consistency for movie-grade science fiction, but still hardly compares to many literary treatments of similar themes. Philip K. Dick, for example, spent much of his science fiction writing career doing various explorations of characters discovering that their reality was an illusion. I'm also reminded of some of the Greg Egan stories I've read involving virtual realities, although I should warn anyone who is inclined to check him out that he can get _very_ geeky -- I managed to finish _Diaspora_, for example, but was tempted to toss it across the room more than once while wading through lengthy passages of artificially-motivated exposition, even though the ideas being explained were pretty mind-blowing. Some of the revelations like the additional factions of AIs beyond the Agents, Agent Smith's mutation (which makes a fair amount of sense given what happened to him in _The Matrix_), and the Architect's explanation of "The One" were kind of interesting. The fight scenes were visually exciting but kind of tedious after a while. The "Zion Rave" scene, as some have described it, could have been shorter. I do kind of want to find a screenshot of Trinity running "nmap" and using an SSH exploit, so I can show it to students in my upcoming system administration class to emphasize that they need to monitor their own systems and keep their software up-to-date, or else those darned rebel humans will win :-). ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 2003 08:24:40 +1000 From: Andrew Fries Subject: Re: MATRIX vickies version On Fri, 2003-05-23 at 06:53, Steve VanDevender wrote: > I do kind of want to find a screenshot of Trinity running "nmap" and > using an SSH exploit, not the best, but here you go: - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Grrr...Arrgh!" -- Mutant - -- 08:17:37 up 17 days, 19:07, 4 users, load average: 0.20, 0.09, 0.07-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 00:24:00 +0200 From: Sander Subject: Re: MATRIX vickies version Steve VanDevender wrote: > I do kind of want to find a screenshot of Trinity running "nmap" and > using an SSH exploit, so I can show it to students in my upcoming system > administration class to emphasize that they need to monitor their own > systems and keep their software up-to-date, or else those darned rebel > humans will win :-). There are several at http://www.insecure.org/ - specifically here: http://images.insecure.org/nmap/images/matrix/ Not much to add beyond this, but that I completely agree with the way Vickie saw it. Sander ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 08:48:33 +0930 From: jonathan soong Subject: Re: MATRIX, I found the crappy jungle video clip annoying i also found most of what Morpheous said annoying (in the first one, at least he didn't say too much - it was kinda cool)... has anyone seen Higher Education with Morpheous in it? same character .. just as annoying.. oh well j >> felt like I was watching a video game. The fight scenes (though a bit >> too >> CGI for me) were admittedly quite nice eye candy, but the plot >> lacked, and >> that whole ZION DANCE/SEX SCENE was incredibly useless. That should have >> been a DVD only "deleted scene" if you ask me. > > > Needless to say, I disagree strongly. What would you (again, not > necessarily you) do > if you found out you had 24 hours to live? Hide, cower in fear and > cry? Loot and ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 19:32:53 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Re: Eliza Gilkyson in London Hi, Adam wondered: >can someone tell me who Greg Brown is? Greg Brown is an acclaimed singer/songwriter from Iowa, who is revered in contemporary folk music circles as a kind of god. I agree that he is one hell of a songwriter, but for me he falls into the "shouldn't be allowed to sing his own songs" category. I've ended up seeing him a bunch of times, since he is a mainstay at the Falcon Ridge Folk Festival every year. He's been getting easier to take as time goes on ... I'm not sure exactly what that means, but hey. :) If you're interested in hearing his stuff for yourself, just tune into WUMB's Net stream (http://www.wumb.org) and listen for about a half an hour. Incidentally, he recently married Iris DeMent, a name which will be familiar to most longtime readers of these pages. There's an interesting pairing ... =============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth =============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://muzak.smoe.org =============================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 21:58:30 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Re: New Kinnie Starr Hi, woj posted: >yikes. i just had a weird thought: kinnie starr is to music as eliza >dushku is to acting. please don't tell either of them that i said this. >i'm sure either would kick my ass. Hah! You *know* Kinnie would. Actually, I can easily envision Eliza Dushku playing Kinnie Starr in the movie. Especially in light of what Eliza said the other night on "Last Call With Carson Daly" about her singing voice being more of a weapon than something to be enjoyed. =============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth =============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://muzak.smoe.org =============================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 21:09:24 -0700 From: "William Mazur" Subject: RE: New Kinnie Starr Meth, I saw that Last Call the other night. Eliza seems to be as tough in real life as her character of Faith. Speaking of Eliza, it reminds me that I am surprised that you or any of the other BtVS fans here haven't posted their thoughts on the last Buffy episode. It really didn't go any way that I would have expected. Bill M. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-ecto@smoe.org [mailto:owner-ecto@smoe.org] On Behalf Of meredith Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 6:59 PM To: ecto@smoe.org Subject: Re: New Kinnie Starr Hi, woj posted: >yikes. i just had a weird thought: kinnie starr is to music as eliza >dushku is to acting. please don't tell either of them that i said this. >i'm sure either would kick my ass. Hah! You *know* Kinnie would. Actually, I can easily envision Eliza Dushku playing Kinnie Starr in the movie. Especially in light of what Eliza said the other night on "Last Call With Carson Daly" about her singing voice being more of a weapon than something to be enjoyed. =============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth =============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://muzak.smoe.org =============================================== ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 2003 14:41:03 +1000 From: Andrew Fries Subject: RE: New Kinnie Starr On Fri, 2003-05-23 at 14:09, William Mazur wrote: > Speaking of Eliza, it reminds me that I am surprised that you or any of > the other BtVS fans here haven't posted their thoughts on the last Buffy > episode. Give us some time ... I couldn't talk about ending of Buffy yet because I'm still in denial - it cannot be over! - --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Grrr...Arrgh!" -- Mutant - -- 14:38:27 up 18 days, 1:29, 4 users, load average: 0.00, 0.01, 0.00-- ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V9 #143 **************************