From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V6 #348 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Monday, November 20 2000 Volume 06 : Number 348 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Happy's split from Samson [Neal Copperman ] Re: covers [Neal Copperman ] Re: covers [Neal Copperman ] Re: Favorite Covers [Neal Copperman ] Oxy & Eze ["Suzanne DeCory" ] Re: Favorite Covers [Joseph Zitt ] Today's your birthday, friend... [Mike Matthews ] more covers I love ["Denis Parslow" ] Re: covers [Bill ] Re: Happy's split from Samson ["Suzanna Otting" ] Covers that redefine the originals? [ABershaw@aol.com] Re: Covers that redefine the originals? [Yngve Hauge ] Re: Covers that redefine the originals? [Neal Copperman ] Re: Covers that redefine the originals? [Bill ] Re: Covers that redefine the originals? [Bill ] Re: covers ["Emily Perkins" ] Re: covers [Joseph Zitt ] Covers. [ArtfulMdrr@aol.com] Play The Game. [ArtfulMdrr@aol.com] OT: selfishness [Paul Blair ] Margot O'Breslin for sale/trade [John Drummond ] Historical irony ["Mitchell A. Pravatiner" ] Re: covers [dave ] Re: Sympathy for The Devil [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] Re: Margot O'Breslin for sale/trade [Neal Copperman ] Re: Wendy's crime [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] Re: Covers that redefine the originals? ["Troy J. Shadbolt" ] covers [kerrywhite@webtv.net (kerry white)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 23:59:26 -0800 From: Neal Copperman Subject: Re: Happy's split from Samson I found Mieu's post pretty compelling, but I disagreed with one of her central premises. It appeared to me that she felt that good art/music needed to be somehow recognized to be validated. I agree that the marketing woman in the article behaved shamefully, but I was really surprised at what a strong affect that had on Happy. At 8:57 AM -0800 11/17/00, Mieu d'Iscalio Sedai wrote: >I knew enough that Samson had dropped her. But knowing Happy's own >feelings about this makes me feel... well, a lot of different emotions. >It's one thing that they pretty much abandoned her, but the fact that >they (or that one woman in marketing in particular) could have broken >her creative spirit just makes me so sad and upset and even a bit angry. Here is a person with a long history of independantly producing music that an (admittedly small) audience has found compelling and moving. And she is confronted with a marketing executive, whose job is not to see that great art is created, not to try to push people to the limits of their potentials. No, her job is to sell records. If that means dumbing down the music, or making the tunes catchier, or slapping on the beats or affects of the hour, so be it. If your goal is to make art, this person's opinion should be meaningless. (If your goal is to sell millions of records, the opinion could have some value.) I thought it was interesting the lengths Happy was willing to go to try to follow Samson's "vision", which I haven't seen any comments on here. It seems like she was willing to follow them most of the way they wanted to go, though not quite as far as doing all other writer's materials. (In fact, if Samson actually had a vision, and was willing to put some money and support behind it, Happy probably would have followed it as long as it wasn't totally distasteful to her.) I guess we saw with BtC that she was willing to go to fairly considerable lengths to shoot for commercial success, and while I think it is one of her weaker efforts, it still has many excellent moments, so mixing commercial asperations with her music isn't a recipe for disaster. (Like people have said regularly for multiple other artists - a weak Happy song is still better than almost anything on the radio.) I am a little surprised that no one has commented on that though. > If expressing myself >-- my true self -- isn't an important thing, why should I bother talking >at all? I tire often of playing the game of showing different faces to >different people, depending on the situation. My imagination is where I >can be ME, in all her ugliness and glory. Isn't that important? >Shouldn't that be important to EVERYBODY? Is it important? Most definitely. Is it important to everybody? Almost definitely not. Should it be? Should everyone care about my thoughts, feelings, struggles and joys? It's hard to imagine. Their are plenty of people who would find the things I feel are meaningful and compelling completely uninteresting (much the same way that I feel talking to people who are fanatic sports fans). I agree with ani difranco (in Fire Door, from her first album) "someone's got to be interested in how i feel just because i'm here and i'm real. "a But that's "someone", not "everyone". >To me, the true criteria for good writing, good music, good art in >general depends on how much of one's heart and soul the artist has put >in his or her work. There's a big difference, to me, in people who use >their creativity to garner attention and wealth, and people who use it >to express to a larger audience what they could not say in simple words, >in the hopes that they will connect with a soul who understands them. I >listen to music for entertainment value, too, but music that truly >inspires me is that which is true to the artist's heart. Music that I >listen to not only for the sound of it but for the message that lies in >every note and every word. Doesn't this imply that the words of the marketing director should be meaningless then? What she was calling for was not to pursue what was in Happy's heart, but to pursue what she thought would best make a buck. neal np: Dar Williams at the Paramount (quelling the near riot that occured when people discovered there were no seats in the club. Though I still don't understand why Dar thinks she's a rock and rolling, dance artist.) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 00:04:44 -0800 From: Neal Copperman Subject: Re: covers At 10:32 AM +1100 11/18/00, Andrew Fries wrote: > The other two are obscure renditions of Joni Mitchel's >classics: "Blue" sung by Angie Hart, and Peccadillo's version of "River". Gee, why do I have both of these? :) Actually, my favorite cover of River (and it looks like I have at least three), is Holly Cole's. So beautiful. (The other one is the Indigo Girls). neal ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 00:01:47 -0800 From: Neal Copperman Subject: Re: covers >At 2:07 PM -0500 11/17/00, Jeffrey Burka wrote: > >There are some rather stunning covers on the _Sweet Relief_ album. >One of my favorites, and for much the same reason, is Evan Dando's >cover of "Frying Pan," which takes Vic William's weird, upbeat pop >song and makes it this slow, pensive, and incredibly moving folk >song. Wow. And speaking of Victoria, she does some mighty fine covers herself. In concert, her versions of It's a Wonderful World and Somewhere Over the Rainbow have brought tears to my eyes. They are so wistfull, and coming from someone who has gone through what Victoria has, who can then sing them with such longing, hope, and even belief, it's quite overwhelming. neal ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 00:12:06 -0800 From: Neal Copperman Subject: Re: Favorite Covers It amazes me how many covers of certain people I have. When I look at things like the multiple discs of covers of people like Richard Thompson and Leonard Cohen (discs I have tend to find mediocre), and then realize that I have so many more (and better) covers of them in my collection, it seems pretty strange. I'm in the middle of an endlessly long process of transfering from one database to another, so my CD's are currently split, but based on what I had at the beginning of the year, I find the most popular covered artists in my collection: Bob Dylan - 27 covers John Lennon - 20 covers Paul McCartney - 19 covers (obviously a lot of overlap here) Richard Thompson - 16 covers Tom Waits - 11 covers Joni Mitchell - 11 covers Leonard Cohen - 7 covers Hmmm, Joni Mitchell seems to be the only popular woman to cover. (Course, this was based on searching for artists I thought I had covers of, so I might be simply forgetting people.) neal ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 02:35:19 EST From: "Suzanne DeCory" Subject: Oxy & Eze Hello all :) I have a question..... Who is 'Oxy and Eze?' Does anyone know or is this a question only Happy could answer? Thanks, Suzanne (: _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 02:02:46 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Favorite Covers On Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 12:12:06AM -0800, Neal Copperman wrote: > I'm in the middle of an endlessly long process of transfering from > one database to another, so my CD's are currently split, but based on > what I had at the beginning of the year, I find the most popular > covered artists in my collection: I'm not sure what the most covered song ever is (I recall that it might be the Beatles' "Yesterday"), but I once counted 35 covers of "You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling", from Long John Baldry to the Human League, about half of which I owned. np. Gray Code tonight at MOCA: "Sonic (Vegan) Tapas". An even wilder night than usual with two original members and three guests. Wheee. MP3s will be online soon. - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 03:00:04 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Matthews Subject: Today's your birthday, friend... i*i*i*i*i*i i*i*i*i*i*i *************** *****HAPPY********* **************BIRTHDAY********* *************************************************** *************************************************************************** ********************* Jeff Smith (JefffSmith@aol.com) ********************* *************************************************************************** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Jeff Smith Mon November 19 1962 Crash Kevin Bartlett Fri November 21 1952 Scorpio Claudia Spix Wed November 23 1960 Schuetze Anja Baldo Tue November 23 1965 Garbanzo Tommy Persson Wed November 25 1964 Sagittarius Pat Tessitore November 26 Sagittarius Valerie Kraemer November 26 Sagittarius Justin Bur Fri November 27 1964 Sagittarius Sue Trowbridge Sun November 27 1966 Skytten Ward Kadel Tue November 29 1977 Sagittarius Jesse Hernandez Liwag Wed November 29 1972 Water Rat Mirko Bulaja Sat November 30 1974 Block Juha Sorva Thu December 02 1976 Sagittarius Chip Lueck Thu December 05 1968 Sagittarius Michele Wellck December 08 Sagittarius Jeremy J. Corry Fri December 11 1970 Sagittarius Renee Canada Tue December 13 1977 Sagittarius Julie C. Kammerzell Sun December 15 1968 Sagittarius/Scorpio combo Gloria Jackson-Nefertiti Sat December 15 1956 queen_nefertiti@prodigy.net Damon Harper Tue December 16 1975 COOL BANANAS Laura Clifford Tue December 17 1957 Sagittarius Dirk Kastens Tue December 17 1963 Sagittarius Milla Wed December 17 1975 Sagittarius Chris Schernwetter Tue December 17 1974 Sagittarius Sherry Haddock Sat December 17 1960 Sagittarius Tracy Benbrook Tue December 18 1973 Sagittarius - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 02:59:00 -0500 From: "Denis Parslow" Subject: more covers I love I have always been partial to covers, either as a tribute or as a new treatment...listening to the Cowboy Junkies and realizing what the original sounded like... a couple more I thought of Suzanne - Neil Diamond (which, slow as it is, is twice Leonard Cohen's speed) I Want You to Want Me - Letters to Cleo (Cheap Trick) Hazy Shade of Winter - Bangles (Simon and Garfunkel) and I remembered Walking After Midnight (covered by the Cowboy Junkies) was by Patsy Cline plus, I have heard some good random covers on commercials lately Denis Parslow dgp@world.std.com http://world.std.com/~dgp/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 00:30:51 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Subject: Re: covers On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, Neal Copperman wrote: > Actually, my favorite cover of River (and it looks like I have at > least three), is Holly Cole's. So beautiful. (The other one is the > Indigo Girls). > > neal Holly Cole's version is very nice indeed. - - Bill G. np: 10,000 Maniacs - _Unplugged_ nr: William Gill - Fortune's Child ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 05:50:06 -0800 From: "Suzanna Otting" Subject: Re: Happy's split from Samson - -- On Sat, 18 Nov 2000 23:59:26 Neal Copperman wrote: >I found Mieu's post pretty compelling, but I disagreed with one of >her central premises. It appeared to me that she felt that good >art/music needed to be somehow recognized to be validated. I agree >that the marketing woman in the article behaved shamefully, but I was >really surprised at what a strong affect that had on Happy. I was surprised by that, too. But they were telling Happy that she wouldn't be able to sell CDs--which means she wouldn't be able to make a living-- and that has to have a strong affect on anyone. >I thought it was interesting the lengths Happy was willing to go to >try to follow Samson's "vision", which I haven't seen any comments on >here. It seems like she was willing to follow them most of the way >they wanted to go, though not quite as far as doing all other >writer's materials. (In fact, if Samson actually had a vision, and >was willing to put some money and support behind it, Happy probably >would have followed it as long as it wasn't totally distasteful to >her.) I guess we saw with BtC that she was willing to go to fairly >considerable lengths to shoot for commercial success, and while I >think it is one of her weaker efforts, it still has many excellent >moments, so mixing commercial asperations with her music isn't a >recipe for disaster. (Like people have said regularly for multiple >other artists - a weak Happy song is still better than almost >anything on the radio.) I am a little surprised that no one has >commented on that though. I agree that doing songs by other artists is not at all a bad thing-- after all, look at the current discussion of favorite and popular covers. I don't think Holly Cole writes many of her own songs, for example, and I've always liked Pat Benatar, whose best songs were almost always written by other people. (Her cover of Wuthering Heights is nice, by the way) Not that I think it would be good for the world if Happy Rhodes became another Pat Benatar, but it might be fun for at least one album. ;) I guess that to a certain extent, an artist has to either be guided by her label, or leave the label. So everything considered, it's probably good that she did! Samson didn't seem interested in helping her anyway. Suzanna np: Siouxsie and the Banshees Twice Upon a Time Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 09:23:41 EST From: ABershaw@aol.com Subject: Covers that redefine the originals? Two cover versions that consistantly blow me away after 30+ years of hearing them are: "I'll Keep It With Mine" (Bob Dylan) by Sandy Denny & Fairport Convention "Natural Woman" (Carole King) by Aretha Franklin Both of these covers kick the living daylights out of the originals. I love Bob Dylan's recordings, but imo, many of his greatest songs were best interpreted by others. I won't bother going in to all that, but since we're discussing favorite cover versions, what other cover versions do you think far surpass the originals? Although Sandy Denny and Aretha Franklin have very little in common, I admired both for their ability to cover songs written by others and recreate the definitive versions in the process. Alan NP: "It's Like This" Rickie Lee Jones (an album of all covers, by the way...) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 17:01:37 +0100 (CET) From: Yngve Hauge Subject: Re: Covers that redefine the originals? On Sun, 19 Nov 2000 ABershaw@aol.com wrote: > Two cover versions that consistantly blow me away after 30+ years of hearing > them are: > > "I'll Keep It With Mine" (Bob Dylan) by Sandy Denny & Fairport Convention > > "Natural Woman" (Carole King) by Aretha Franklin > What I've understood from the recordings of Carole King's songs is that they very often used Carole's own demos as blueprints. A couple of times during the 60s they even did release Carole's demos, because they were too good not to be used. Carole King's own version off Tapestry is amazing, but you can hear lots of her style in Aretha Franklin's song. It is one of these cases were it is hard to say what is the cover or not as Carole is releasing her own song after another artist has recorded it. Even though most of the songs on her albums are originally written for that particular album there are more songs originally written for other artists before she did release her own versions of the songs. Her version of "Will You Love Me Tomorrow" is wonderful and so is "Crying In The Rain" which she had made into a jazzy version. Her live album released a few years back is a pretty impressive display of original hits .... Another interesting example of this is Briskeby's Propaganda - A german artist did release a cover of the song before the band had time to get the song out in Germany. I haven't heard the cover, but I can hardly believe that it could possibly be any better than the original :) Velvet Belly did a wonderful job redefining "The Man With A Child In His Eyes" IMHO. They were actually not very happy of the project in the beginning, but the record company thought it was a good idea so they decided the try it - so the result is even more impressive. - -- Yngve ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 08:52:10 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Harrington Subject: OT: Death Penalty > I personally oppose the death penalty, but not as a > matter of moral principle. The position that "killing > is wrong, so it's equally wrong for society to execute > killers" is an argument not against the death penalty > but against punishment as such. I don't agree. Murderers should be punished, just not by executing them. We don't sentence rapists to be raped. It's not even discussed as an option. (Okay, some crackpots do bring it up occasionally.) Why? Because it's such a reprehensible act, that we don't think it's appropriate for society to use it as punishment. Why don't we view taking life in the same way? When my kids hit each other, I don't spank them for it. It would teach them the wrong thing. Drew Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 10:08:39 -0800 From: Neal Copperman Subject: Re: Covers that redefine the originals? At 9:23 AM -0500 11/19/00, ABershaw@aol.com wrote: >Both of these covers kick the living daylights out of the originals. Actually, Imeant to mention that yesterday too, but forgot. My most recent example, which no one else will be able to relate to except Jeff (who already mentioned it in a post a few weeks ago), was Laurianne Fiorentino. She opened her house concert with a cover of Rocket Man, which at first I thought was a terrible idea. I don't think artists should open with a cover. First they should establish their own identity, and then mix a cover into their set. However, her cover was stunning, and it fully established her identity, even through a familiar song. At the end of her set, she did Van Morrison's Tupelo Honey. This is one of those songs that (for me) seems to have lost the power it must have originally had, due to constant radio exposure. Laurianne reinvigorated it, and brought back to life the power that has probably always been there. For me, one of the most surprising covers was Heidi Berry's cover of Husker Du's Up In The Air on Love. If I wasn't a liner notes reader, it never would have occured to me it was a husker du song. Even after playing the two back to back repeatedly, I was still surprised. neal np: Dar Williams at the Paramount (just after the giant plate glass window at the front entrance exploded during Iowa) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 10:31:21 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Subject: Re: Covers that redefine the originals? On Sun, 19 Nov 2000 ABershaw@aol.com wrote: > [...] but since we're discussing favorite cover versions, what other > cover versions do you think far surpass the originals? Well, I think that a lot of this has to do with "first impressions"; nearly all covers (albeit not all) which I have heard I heard first done by the covering musician, and when I heard the original (done by the original artist) it often didn't sound as good to me, but that is probably because I was "used" to the cover which I listened to first. At any rate, I do agree that some covers far surpass the original. - - Bill G. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 10:38:13 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Subject: Re: Covers that redefine the originals? On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, Yngve Hauge wrote: > [...] It is one of these cases were it is hard to say what is the cover > or not as Carole is releasing her own song after another artist has > recorded it. And let's not forget Holly Cole's cover of Holly Cole's "Make it go away". I got a kick out of that one! :) - - Bill G. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 11:39:50 -0800 From: "Emily Perkins" Subject: Re: covers Sorry if I missed someone else mentioning these already... One of my favorite covers is Over the Rhine's version of the Beatles' "Blackbird." They also have a version of the Rolling Stones' "Ruby Tuesday" on the same album (Amateur Shortwave Radio), but it's one of the few Over the Rhine songs that doesn't do much for me. But Karin Bergquist's vocals on "Blackbird" are some of her best. And then there's Kristin Hersh's "Echo" single, with the Beatles' "Everybody's Got Something to Hide Except Me and My Monkey" and Nirvana's "Pennyroyal Tea." I haven't heard the original version of the latter, but Kristin Hersh can sing pretty much anything and I'll like it. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Blair To: Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2000 6:21 AM Subject: Re: covers > > I keep thinking that there's some Jane Siberry and Cowboy Junkies and > Over the Rhine covers that should be occurring to me... > > Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:47:32 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: covers On Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 11:39:50AM -0800, Emily Perkins wrote: > One of my favorite covers is Over the Rhine's version of the Beatles' > "Blackbird." Bobby McFerrin also does a wonderful version. > And then there's Kristin Hersh's "Echo" single, with the Beatles' > "Everybody's Got Something to Hide Except Me and My Monkey" and Nirvana's > "Pennyroyal Tea." I haven't heard the original version of the latter, but > Kristin Hersh can sing pretty much anything and I'll like it. By the train of thought Nirvana->covers->Sinead O'Connor (who did "All Apologies") -> covers One of my favorite mostly-covers albums is Linda Ronstadt and Emmylou Harris's "Western Wall: The Tucson Sessions" where they cover, among other things, Sinead's "This is to Mother You", Leonard Cohen's "Sisters of Mercy", and the title track by Rosanne Cash (which may be my single all time favorite song). - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:00:38 EST From: ArtfulMdrr@aol.com Subject: Covers. I think it's Patty Griffith... The Smiths' "Half A Person" live. She does it beautifully. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 19:22:27 EST From: ArtfulMdrr@aol.com Subject: Play The Game. I just realized that Happy Rhodes' "Play the Game" is a reference to the song "Play the Game" by Queen. Wow. I'm dense. - - Katherine ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 19:28:58 -0500 From: Paul Blair Subject: OT: selfishness It is not arbitrary to define selfishness as concern for one's own interests. The term's common bad connotation comes from the idea that putting one's own interests first involves a willingness to sacrifice others. Common usage presupposes that there are two ways to live: sacrificing for others or imposing sacrifices on them. But what of those who sustain their own lives by their own work, sacrificing neither themselves nor others? Common usage permits no recognition of this alternative, lumping it together with imposing sacrifices on others--as those who object to altruistic sacrifices find when their selfishness is routinely denounced. The common usage of "selfishness" classifies essentially different items together, the fallacy of the package-deal. The alleged unifying factor is concern for the self. But are both the producer and the predator concerned for their own interests? Satisfying any arbitrary desire is not the same as pursuing one's own interests; not everything one desires is to one's interest. Desires can be altruistic, self-destructive, or otherwise unconcerned with one's own benefit. Calling it "selfish" to pursue an altruistic desire makes the term meaningless. The producer, who seeks to identify and earn the values life requires, evidently has his own interests in mind. What of the predator? Consider: * The Unabomber. Here murder was motivated by pure ideology. Was this selfish? What did the killer stand to gain? Even if his action could have changed industry enough to make an impact on his Montana environment within his lifetime, was this really his goal? * Jeffrey Dahmer. What does a serial killer gain from his actions? His motive is not to make his own life better, but simply to inflict destruction on someone else, for its own sake. * Josef Stalin. The tyrant seeks power--but for what purpose? To improve his own life? Or as an end in itself, for the sake of what he can do to people? Sane people don't dream, "If only I could have been Stalin--how much better life would have been..." * O.J. What exactly does O.J. gain from the deaths of Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman? Killing them did not change the fact that his ex had been seeing another guy. Indulging an irrational jealous rage is not the same as concern for one's own well-being. * David Posman--who knocked out an armored car driver and stole four money bags. The 30-lb. bags, containing $800 in pennies, so slowed him that police easily jumped him. This guy and the legion like him aren't thinking of their own benefit; they aren't thinking at all. "I see it--I want it--I'll take it" does not constitute concern for one's own interests. There is nothing essentially selfish about preying on others. Even when a predator pursues money or some other valuable target, his motivation differs essentially from the producer's. The predator wants to avoid the hassle or the effort or the responsibility of earning the reward. The predator seeks, not to be self-supporting, but to be a parasite on others' efforts. Essentially, the predator abandons calling into being the causal agency he needs to support his life himself. But this causal agency *is* the self. Predatory action is the attempt to exist without having to have a self. Whatever interest moves such a person, it is not the maintenance of a self. And yes, I did learn a lot from Ayn Rand. However, I can very well speak for myself. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 16:46:18 -0800 (PST) From: John Drummond Subject: Margot O'Breslin for sale/trade Folks: I have a copy of Margot O'Breslin's _That's the way it is today_ that I bought new and listened to only once that is up for the highest bidder/whatever. If you've got something interesting to trade for it, then rock on... make your best offer! John ===== - - John Drummond "[O]ne of Abaton's favorite young men[!!!]" - L. Bortz Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 19:06:14 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: OT: selfishness On Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 07:28:58PM -0500, Paul Blair wrote: > Common usage presupposes that there are two ways to live: sacrificing > for others or imposing sacrifices on them. But what of those who > sustain their own lives by their own work, sacrificing neither > themselves nor others? Common usage permits no recognition of this > alternative, lumping it together with imposing sacrifices on > others--as those who object to altruistic sacrifices find when their > selfishness is routinely denounced. In my experience, this does not correlate with common usage. > "I see it--I want it--I'll take it" does not constitute concern for > one's own interests. Yes, it does. It may not be a rational, thought out concern, but it can be seen as nothing other than a strict focus on what one wants for oneself. Unfortunately, in the Randian redefinition of selfishness, concern for the self is always assumed to be supremely rational, so this aspect of the common usage is lost. - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 20:04:25 -0600 (CST) From: "Mitchell A. Pravatiner" Subject: Historical irony As fate would have it, Thomas More (cf. the post by RedWoodenBeads) actually _was_ executed, for refusing to go along with certain power grabs by Henry VIII. The whole affair was the subject of the play and movie _A Man for All Seasons_. Mitch ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 23:01:44 -0500 From: dave Subject: Re: covers Here's just a few of my favorites: Kasia Kowalska's covers of Led Zep's 'No Quarter' and Billy Joel's 'New York State of Mind' Nichole Nordeman's version of Stevie Wonder's 'As' The Grey Eye Glances cover of Yes's 'Your Move' Maria McKee or Cowboy Junkies doing Lou Reed's 'Sweet Jane' and here's a somewhat connected bunch... Trevor Lucas's cover of Phil Coulter's 'The Town I Loved So Well' Fairport Convention covering Leonard Cohen's 'Bird on a Wire' And finally Knots and Crosses doing Richard Thompson's 'Walking on a Wire' dave ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 23:56:13 EST From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: Re: Sympathy for The Devil In a message dated 11/18/00 11:05:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org writes: << Natalie merchant's cover of sympathy for the devils is good >> That's a great one! It's somewhat of a departure for Natalie, kind of on the verge of really rocking out. I really like Jen Turner's gutsy riffing and the congas. Another very good Rolling Stones cover is "Wild Horses" by The Sundays. It's just Harriet with Dave accompanying her on electric and acoustic guitars. Very sparse and very beautiful, I actually think it's better than the original version. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 21:45:21 -0800 From: Neal Copperman Subject: Re: Margot O'Breslin for sale/trade At 4:46 PM -0800 11/19/00, John Drummond wrote: >Folks: > I have a copy of Margot O'Breslin's _That's the >way it is today_ that I bought new and listened to >only once that is up for the highest bidder/whatever. >If you've got something interesting to trade for it, >then rock on... make your best offer! People should take John up on this. I think this is a great album (see the ectophiles guide for more endorsements), and unfortunately, apparently unavailable for purchase these days. However, if you would like to donate money to Margot, you can send her a check for the disc (but only to the address in the ectoguide, not on her web page). She will cash it, and you won't get a disc. Someone claimed that happened when I talked about ordering her disc a few months ago, and I had hoped it would turn out to be an anomaly. But the same thing happened to me, so I'm pretty sceptical right now. She doesn't appear to have e-mail, so I guess I'll have to send her a postcard to register my complaint. If there is any resolution, I'll let you know. neal np: There Was A Lady: The Voice of Celtic Women ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 00:03:00 EST From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: Re: Wendy's crime In a message dated 11/18/00 11:05:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org writes: << I ask each of you who are against the death penalty no matter what. Imagine if one or more of the victims in that Wendy's crime were friends or relatives to YOU. I mean REALLY do it. Do it right now. Pick out a brother or sister of yours, your best friend, your cousins' daughter or perhaps your gym teacher or even your own child. >> Wow I see your point ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 21:27:12 -0800 From: "Troy J. Shadbolt" Subject: Re: Covers that redefine the originals? I've stayed in lurk mode for a couple of years now; but this is something that made me pipe up. A cover which is heads above better than the originals. Tuck & Patti's rendition of the Cyndi Lauper tune "Time after Time". An amazing guitarist and a woman with the most unbelievable jazz mezzo voice. Call me warped, but I'd kill to hear T&P take on a couple of Happy's songs. oh well, back into the pits... Dr Troy Shadbolt what's playing? Katie McMahon ABershaw@aol.com wrote: > > Two cover versions that consistantly blow me away after 30+ years of hearing > them are: > > "I'll Keep It With Mine" (Bob Dylan) by Sandy Denny & Fairport Convention > > "Natural Woman" (Carole King) by Aretha Franklin > > Both of these covers kick the living daylights out of the originals. I love > Bob Dylan's recordings, but imo, many of his greatest songs were best > interpreted by others. I won't bother going in to all that, but since we're > discussing favorite cover versions, what other cover versions do you think > far surpass the originals? Although Sandy Denny and Aretha Franklin have > very little in common, I admired both for their ability to cover songs > written by others and recreate the definitive versions in the process. > Alan > > NP: "It's Like This" Rickie Lee Jones (an album of all covers, by the way...) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 21:51:16 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Subject: Re: Covers that redefine the originals? On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, Troy J. Shadbolt wrote: > Tuck & Patti's rendition of the Cyndi Lauper tune "Time after Time". An > amazing guitarist and a woman with the most unbelievable jazz mezzo > voice. Actually, their cover of "In my life" is very well and sweetly done. - - Bill G. np: Tuck & Patti - Learning How to Fly ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 00:42:54 -0600 (CST) From: kerrywhite@webtv.net (kerry white) Subject: covers Hi, Spooky Tooth did a nice "I am the Walrus". Also: I once heard a choir of children do Walrus, too, but have no idea who they were. A re-defining cover: as mentioned before: "Demolition Man" by Manfred Mann's Earth Band is so much neater than the original Police tune. bye, KrW I'm Peter Pan! I'm perpetually young!! OW!! What's wrong with my back? ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V6 #348 **************************