From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V6 #336 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Friday, November 10 2000 Volume 06 : Number 336 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Are there *any* Republicans/conservatives on this list??? [Joseph Zit] Today's your birthday, friend... [Mike Matthews ] jorane / Eleni Mandell [Steve I ] HRsite [CptBryant@aol.com] Re: Are there *any* Republicans/conservatives on this list??? ["Tom Dit] Re: Are there *any* Republicans/conservatives on this list??? [Joseph Zit] Movin' on ["Neil K. Guy" ] Re: Movin' on [Neile Graham ] Re: Are there *any* Republicans/conservatives on this list??? [Libby ] Re: any conservatives? [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] an interesting thought [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] Re: an interesting thought [Joseph Zitt ] Re: an interesting thought [Marla Tiara ] Re: an interesting thought [Joseph Zitt ] Re: an interesting thought [Marla Tiara ] Re: Are there *any* Republicans/conservatives on this list??? ["Robert Lo] Re: Are there *any* Republicans/conservatives on this list??? [Chuck Davi] Re: Are there *any* Republicans/conservatives on this list??? [jason and ] Re: an interesting thought ["Robert Lovejoy" ] Recent threads ["Mitchell A. Pravatiner" ] Re: POL: Protest ["Robert Lovejoy" ] Re: POL: Protest [Richard ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 01:15:47 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Are there *any* Republicans/conservatives on this list??? On Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 01:32:51AM -0500, Paul Blair wrote: > These are two sides of the same coin. They share the view that the > two realms are incompatible and that human beings have a dual > metaphysical citizenship, one side of which they must renounce. They > therefore see sacrifice as an inherent part of life--the > spiritualists sacrifice themselves for spiritual reasons, while the > materialists sacrifice others for material gain. Neither side sees > human beings as metaphysically integrated, self-sustaining, > independent organisms whose existence needs no external justification. True. But many of us recognize human beings as metaphysically integrated, mutually sustaining, interdependent participants in systems whose members that are enriched by their interactions. The other view seems frighteningly cold. (But without justification, most would be ragged-left or ragged-right, though some would be centered.) - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 03:00:04 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Matthews Subject: Today's your birthday, friend... i*i*i*i*i*i i*i*i*i*i*i *************** *****HAPPY********* **************BIRTHDAY********* *************************************************** *************************************************************************** **************** Rachel Kramer Bussel (rkb200@is5.nyu.edu) **************** *************************************************************************** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Rachel Kramer Bussel Mon November 10 1975 Scorpio Ken Latta Sun November 11 1951 Scorpio Michael Doyle Wed November 12 1969 Scorpio Marla Tiara Tue November 13 1973 Scorpio Neil K. Thu November 14 1968 Grocible Dave Cook Mon November 15 1971 Scorpio Jeff Pearce November 16 Orpheus Naama Avramzon Mon November 18 1974 Scorpio Jeff Smith Mon November 19 1962 Crash Kevin Bartlett Fri November 21 1952 Scorpio Claudia Spix Wed November 23 1960 Schuetze Anja Baldo Tue November 23 1965 Garbanzo Tommy Persson Wed November 25 1964 Sagittarius Pat Tessitore November 26 Sagittarius Valerie Kraemer November 26 Sagittarius Justin Bur Fri November 27 1964 Sagittarius Sue Trowbridge Sun November 27 1966 Skytten Ward Kadel Tue November 29 1977 Sagittarius Jesse Hernandez Liwag Wed November 29 1972 Water Rat Mirko Bulaja Sat November 30 1974 Block Juha Sorva Thu December 02 1976 Sagittarius Chip Lueck Thu December 05 1968 Sagittarius Michele Wellck December 08 Sagittarius - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 03:36:43 -0500 From: Steve I Subject: jorane / Eleni Mandell Hey philes, forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but according to the DKD website, Jorane's new album 16mm was released on November 7. I haven't actually seen it yet, but it does seem to be listed in the databases at http://futureshop.ca and http://www.absound.ca. Saw Eleni Mandell on Tuesday night, she did a CD release party here in Toronto. A little odd perhaps for an L.A. based artist, but I guess a local guy put out her new CD. Anyway it was a great show, and a fantastic CD. Highly recommended for ectophiles who also like Tom Waits. The show was webcast live and is archived at http://primeticket.net . They did a really good job, check it out! Incidentally, they also have a recent show by Tegan and Sara archived there as well (Ani fans and fans of Canadian singers named Sara(h), take note! ;) ) Steve ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 08:37:06 EST From: CptBryant@aol.com Subject: HRsite Good Morning Fine People at Ecto-Land, It's been brought to my attention that some of you didn't receive a personal email regarding the launch of my website. My apologies. There is a general email list from which the notifications were sent. I would like to have a more comprehensive email list, so if you've never written to me before, please drop me a line at sara@auntiesocialmusic.com so you can be notified of other things in the future. If you received your website notification, then you don't need to write. Thanks and enjoy. www.auntiesocialmusic.com Hello Friends, This is Happy Rhodes. I promised I would let you know when my website was up and my CDbs available for sale. Ibm proud to say itbs here. www.auntiesocialmusic.com At this website, you can get the latest news, bio, photos as well as a store, where youbll find all of my CDbs for online ordering. Thatbs right. The entire back catalog. Mail order is welcome too. If you have a friend who isnbt able to go online and may want to purchase my albums, feel free to pass on the mail order address: Auntie Social Music P.O. Box 162 Rifton, NY 12471 The site will be updated continuously with personal thoughts from me as well as any news. Donbt forget that Ibm working on my next CD, so it wonbt be long before thatbs available too. If you feel like giving me your thoughts, click on bContactb and let me have it. All mail addressed to me will be read by me. www.auntiesocialmusic.com This site was made available by its creators, the fine people at www.cybermagician.com and hosted by the folks at smoe.org. The Auntie Social Music logo was created by Ted DeLorme. I hope you all are well and Happy. Happy Rhodes ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:21:02 -0500 From: "Tom Ditto" Subject: Re: Are there *any* Republicans/conservatives on this list??? > Geez, what a curse it has been to be born with a love of music, but also > with rightward political leanings :-) > > Obviously, it is not only this list, but a strange artifact of > artistically oriented people in general, that they tend to be > environmentalists, liberals, vegetarian, homosexual-aware, bla bla bla! > > Any theories as to why this is? It's probably an apples and oranges problem. The political spectrum is another universe. That said, remember that most artists and most people aren't wealthy, property-oriented, self righteous or moralizing. I like to say: "In the arts the power of beauty is greater than the beauty of power." It is true that given a director's chair, an artist will behave in a somewhat dictatorial manner, quite a bit different from democratic rule. So you see a duality in the public politics and the creative politics of artists. But this contradiction pales in comparision to so called conservatives whose attention to conservation itself is exampled by Bush calling for the mineral exploitation of wilderness preserves and Cheney's support of same but at the same time his opposition to strip mining in his own back yard (Wyoming), since it would lower his personal property's value. One reason you might notice that in this particular list there is a left-leaning bias has to do with homosexuality. It is demonized on the right and applauded on the left. Many of the artists we admire are either gay or close to others who are gay. This would shock many who are carried into our presence by our works of art while remaining ignorant of our life styles. Look at the Sistine Chapel or the Mona Lisa. The homosexuality of the artists who created these masterpieces went unmentioned for centuries. We were left to figure it out from the historical record. Shakespeare's bi-sexuality is still a fairly taboo topic, although it's perfectly obvious to anyone who has been there. Not only do his plays make specific use cross dressing; in his era all the women were played by boys. What a magnet that was in Elizabethan times for a male artist with the inclination to have sexual reveries about men. There are many artists who are drawn to the Republican party. Sonny Bono was actually elected to the House where he authored a key bit of legislation on copyright, a revision of that law which reflects quite clearly how Republican artists feel about their intellectual property. In the conservative view, the role of government is to protect an individual's private property from piracy by outside agents. Bono was also a musician whose most important work was done with Cher, and I rather think he could have been a closet admirer of the likes of Happy Rhodes, but as a political activist he was a Palm Springs denizen who wanted to funnel yet even more money into the hands of the already rich. That kind of money-first attitude doesn't happen inside the brains of most of use on this list, perhaps because we are first motivated by our hearts. Tom ditto@taconic.net >...punch the hole >next to the arrow >next to the number >next to the candidate... Palm Beach County ballot instructions ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:24:37 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Are there *any* Republicans/conservatives on this list??? On Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 09:21:02AM -0500, Tom Ditto wrote: > It is true that given a director's chair, an artist will behave in a > somewhat dictatorial manner, quite a bit different from democratic rule. So Yup. I've actually been called on this occasionally in projects that I've helmed, and been surprised to look back and realize that I was doing this. As they say, power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely, and then there's record companies... > >...punch the hole > >next to the arrow > >next to the number > >next to the candidate... > Palm Beach County ballot instructions Interface design, courtesy of They Might Be Giants :-) - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:59:11 -0800 From: "Neil K. Guy" Subject: Movin' on Hey folks! Well. I just thought I'd drop a little line to let you know that, after years of Ecto fun*, I'm afraid I'm probably unsubbing. No particular reason or hard feelings - just that time goes by, and I think my interests have sort of diverged from those of the land of Ecto. And I thought I'd just thank everyone on the list for making it the great place it is. It really is, at risk of sounding cheesy, a special place. And how groovy it was to meet all of you I've met. Particularly the folks from #ecto, of days of yore. :) See you around, elsewhere on the net. I won't be here - but I'll be ecto! - Neil K. * not sure how many. 6? 7? A long while anyway! - -- NK Guy * tela@tela.bc.ca * Vancouver, Canada http://www.burningcam.com/ * http://www.grocible.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 08:44:37 -0800 From: Neile Graham Subject: Re: Movin' on Wow! So there will no longer be a Neil, a Neal, and a Neile on the list. It has to be at least 7 years, because the historic meeting of the Ne*ls came about in 1993. We'll miss you, Neil. Is our Aussie Neil still on the list? - --Neile np: Not listening to anything. It's too early on a holiday morning. But soon! At 10:59 PM -0800 11/9/00, Neil K. Guy wrote: > Hey folks! > > Well. I just thought I'd drop a little line to let you know that, >after years of Ecto fun*, I'm afraid I'm probably unsubbing. No >particular reason or hard feelings - just that time goes by, and I >think my interests have sort of diverged from those of the land of >Ecto. > > And I thought I'd just thank everyone on the list for making it the >great place it is. It really is, at risk of sounding cheesy, a >special place. And how groovy it was to meet all of you I've met. >Particularly the folks from #ecto, of days of yore. :) See you >around, elsewhere on the net. I won't be here - but I'll be ecto! > > - Neil K. > > * not sure how many. 6? 7? A long while anyway! > >-- > NK Guy * tela@tela.bc.ca * Vancouver, Canada > http://www.burningcam.com/ * http://www.grocible.com/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neile Graham ...... http://www.sff.net/people/neile ....... neile@sff.net Les Semaines: A Weekly Journal . http://www.sff.net/people/neile/semaines The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music ....... http://www.smoe.org/ectoguide ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:30:01 -0500 From: Libby Subject: Re: Are there *any* Republicans/conservatives on this list??? >Obviously, it is not only this list, but a strange artifact of >artistically oriented people in general, that they tend to be >environmentalists, liberals, vegetarian, homosexual-aware, bla bla bla! >Any theories as to why this is? Artists by nature tend to be progressive, out-of-the-box thinkers. Creativity isn't possible without these qualities. When the mind is open to possibility, conventionality is merely one of many choices. "Yes" or "No" become "Maybe". There are more answers to societal issues than fit on a ballot, and many of those answers create new industries, jobs, healthier ways of living, more efective learning processes, more comfortable workspaces, more compassionate relationships with people who don't live exactly the way you want them to live, are self sustainable, ethical, and lord help us, make money at the same time. On the other hand, there are power structures in existence who believe that their bottom-line (be that philosophical or monetary) is threatened by many of these answers. Sometimes they are mistaken, and sometimes they need to move the line. Maybe (horror!) sometimes, they're right. A lot of times they just don't want to be perceived as listening to a flaky granola-eating bisexual organic gardener with paint on her shoes and an unorthodox view of a loving god, because you know those hippie-cooties are gonna rub off. >Certainly, there must be a lot of writing discussing the reasons for >this. Can anyone point me to some? Try, _ Extraordinary Minds _, by Dr. Howard Gardner (Harvard Professor and Psychologist), which focuses on the thought characteristics of several "creative geniuses". ~!L - ------------- "There's a fine line between living on the edge and being in the lunatic fringe." - Frank Armstrong, "Preparing for Tomorrow's Challenges" - ------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:41:14 -0600 From: "girl with the curious hair" Subject: FW: POL: Protest I'm not a big proponent of forwarding e-mails, but I am a big believer in popular action. I'm forwarding this just in case anybody here is interested. If someone has already sent this info, I apologize for the overlap. I also do not mean to pick on anyone's party or political affiliation. - -----Original Message----- From: Gregg Gordon This CAN be stopped. The one in Austin, of course, is the most important one of all. Come if you can. Make a sign and wear your walkin' shoes. (Hopefully, hard hats will not be necessary.) Gore got more. let's see if this Internet is good for anything. Original Message from Zack of gwbush.com: - ------- Friends, (Forward this message) Gore WON the popular vote but is LOSING the White House. But... The electors who make up the electoral college ARE NOT REQUIRED to vote for the candidate who won in their state. The whole point was to give the electoral college the final say. In this case, the stupid custom of "winner take all" is blocking democracy. It's within the power of the electors to make Gore the prez, and it would be right to do so BECAUSE HE WON THE ELECTION. Bush should step aside and let the EC choose Gore. Of course he won't do that willingly, but WE CAN MAKE HIM. There's a site coordinating protests for this Saturday in cities all over the country. Please visit it, and show up this Saturday. http://geocities.com/countercoup/ God bless America, - -Zack gwbush.com ************************************* Please post all LISTSERV messages to herdomain@lists.herdomain.org ************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 14:39:59 EST From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: Re: any conservatives? In a message dated 11/9/00 11:17:12 PM Pacific Standard Time, owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org writes: << Do you think Georgie Bush is? >> Do you think Al Gore is? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 14:57:09 EST From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: an interesting thought As I have thought about the elections and the eternal republicans vs. democrats death struggle, I started asking myself, under what type of government does better music thrive? Personally, I think it may very well be a Reagan-esque government. The reason being is because most musicians don't like republicans, and so they feel trapped, rebellious, and angry under a republican white house. As Stevie Nicks once said, "being devastated leads to writing really good stuff". Look at what happened while Reagan was president in the 80's. An enormous underground movement took hold which spread like wildfire and ended up setting the spark for some of the best rock music of all time. R.E.M., The Minutemen, Tori Amos, 10,000 Maniacs, My Bloody Valentine, The Pixies, Suzanne Vega, Tracy Chapman, The English Beat, the whole gothic movement, grunge (Nirvana, Sondgarden), and just a whole new independent approach to music all emerged from under a republican controlled white house. Yes, there's been a lot of great stuff coming out of the 92-2000 era, but I don't think the whole independent rebelliousness is as strong a presence. Does anyone see this? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 14:28:22 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: an interesting thought A theory that is, of course, blown to shreds by the musical stagnation of the Eisenhower 50s, the vitality of the Kennedy/Johnson 60s, and the return of stagnation in the Gerald Ford 70s. It can be useful to remember that history began sometime before one was born... On Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 02:57:09PM -0500, RedWoodenBeads@aol.com wrote: > As I have thought about the elections and the eternal republicans vs. > democrats death struggle, I started asking myself, under what type of > government does better music thrive? > > Personally, I think it may very well be a Reagan-esque government. > > The reason being is because most musicians don't like republicans, and so > they feel trapped, rebellious, and angry under a republican white house. As > Stevie Nicks once said, "being devastated leads to writing really good > stuff". Look at what happened while Reagan was president in the 80's. An > enormous underground movement took hold which spread like wildfire and ended > up setting the spark for some of the best rock music of all time. R.E.M., The > Minutemen, Tori Amos, 10,000 Maniacs, My Bloody Valentine, The Pixies, > Suzanne Vega, Tracy Chapman, The English Beat, the whole gothic movement, > grunge (Nirvana, Sondgarden), and just a whole new independent approach to > music all emerged from under a republican controlled white house. Yes, > there's been a lot of great stuff coming out of the 92-2000 era, but I don't > think the whole independent rebelliousness is as strong a presence. Does > anyone see this? - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 12:12:36 -0800 (PST) From: Marla Tiara Subject: Re: an interesting thought - --- RedWoodenBeads@aol.com wrote: > As I have thought about the elections and the > eternal republicans vs. > democrats death struggle, I started asking myself, > under what type of > government does better music thrive? > > Personally, I think it may very well be a > Reagan-esque government. I do have to agree. Also, good music comes in times of bad economy, recession, etc. Right now, we are seeing the advent of bubblegum pop in part because teenagers have disposable income, people are happy and feel good about their jobs and everyone is just dandy. Nobody (read: generic person X, you know?) wants to listen to anything dreary or complex or confusing, they want to boogie and think happy thoughts. But if things aren't so great, boom, we get bands like Nirvana. :) marla tiara ===== ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Famous people wearing my tiara: http://www.marlatiara.com (*updated 9/21/00 - All pictures active!) "I will always love you like a milkshake." - Wesley Willis ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 14:50:11 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: an interesting thought On Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 12:12:36PM -0800, Marla Tiara wrote: > Right now, we are seeing the advent of bubblegum pop > in part because teenagers have disposable income, > people are happy and feel good about their jobs and > everyone is just dandy. Nobody (read: generic person > X, you know?) wants to listen to anything dreary or > complex or confusing, they want to boogie and think > happy thoughts. But if things aren't so great, boom, > we get bands like Nirvana. Hmm... Nirvana got huge in the early Clinton era (though they were recording for a few years before that). And I see that the chart from 10 years ago this week was headed up by those bastions of dark, complex dreariness Vanilla Ice, MC Hammer, and Mariah Carey. When you look even farther back, say to the WWII era and the Depression, you see that escapist fluff flourished during dark times. I suspect that good economies make for the possibility of dark music. After all, much of goth, grunge, and gangsta rap (to make a broad overgeneralisation) were fueled by well-to-do bored suburban teenagers whose lives were sufficiently devoid of economic and politic hardship that they had to pile on the requisite Hellmouth angst by dressing in black, making up stories of baroque violence, and moaning about not being understood. - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 12:50:59 -0800 (PST) From: Marla Tiara Subject: Re: an interesting thought Apparantly I was wrong. I do apologize profusely. marla tiara - --- Joseph Zitt wrote: > On Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 12:12:36PM -0800, Marla > Tiara wrote: > > > Right now, we are seeing the advent of bubblegum > pop > > in part because teenagers have disposable income, > > people are happy and feel good about their jobs > and > > everyone is just dandy. Nobody (read: generic > person > > X, you know?) wants to listen to anything dreary > or > > complex or confusing, they want to boogie and > think > > happy thoughts. But if things aren't so great, > boom, > > we get bands like Nirvana. > > Hmm... Nirvana got huge in the early Clinton era > (though they were > recording for a few years before that). And I see > that the chart from > 10 years ago this week was headed up by those > bastions of dark, > complex dreariness Vanilla Ice, MC Hammer, and > Mariah Carey. > > When you look even farther back, say to the WWII era > and the Depression, > you see that escapist fluff flourished during dark > times. > > I suspect that good economies make for the > possibility of dark music. > After all, much of goth, grunge, and gangsta rap (to > make a broad > overgeneralisation) were fueled by well-to-do bored > suburban teenagers > whose lives were sufficiently devoid of economic and > politic hardship > that they had to pile on the requisite Hellmouth > angst by dressing in > black, making up stories of baroque violence, and > moaning about not > being understood. > > -- > |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ > --- Marcel Duchamp <| > | jzitt@metatronpress.com > http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | > | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn > http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | > | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John > Cage Discussion List | > ===== ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Famous people wearing my tiara: http://www.marlatiara.com (*updated 9/21/00 - All pictures active!) "I will always love you like a milkshake." - Wesley Willis ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 20:57:23 -0500 From: "Robert Lovejoy" Subject: Re: Are there *any* Republicans/conservatives on this list??? Dear Larry, I think a lot of the problem with politics is that people tend to view the spectrum as two dimensional. You have your Right Wing, which is conservative, and Left wing, which is liberal. The Yogi and the Commissar. There is a lot about conservatism I applaud. The concept of less government, of individualism, are conservative tenets. There is much about liberalism I applaud. Redistribution of wealth towards the needy, and social services have helped to make this nation great. But there is much more to the political spectrum than the left and the right. There is also the "front" and the "back" - Authoritarianism and Libertarianism, to round out the picture of what's going on. Authoritarians demand that society mirror their concepts of morality and approach to life, while Libertarians feel that the individuals should be masters of their own fate, as long as that fate does not impinge upon the rights of others to follow their own star. It seems that in America, the conservative party (GOP) has been subsumed by the Authoritarians. Thus, Republicans find themselves taking what they term the high moral road and outlawing women's right to choose as well as supporting other purely moralistic ideals, which flies in the face of true conservatism. If the republicans want less government, why do they want more restrictive laws on the citizens? It seems to me their idea of less government means fewer restrictions on corporations. Democrats are not entirely off the hook. While many liberals are truly open minded (one of the definitions of the word), they still insist on drawing some moral lines, so both parties still support the failed War on (Some) Drugs. So you can have authoritarian liberals, libertarian conservatives, and any combination thereof. That adds a bit of complexity to the plot. In closing, as I have grown older I have begun to notice that there are basically two kinds of people on this planet. There are those who have learned that the path to true happiness comes from helping others. Christianity's Golden Rule and Buddhism's Law of Karma are but two shining examples of the way to peace. Then there are those who care mostly about themselves. What's in it for Me? How can I benefit from whatever is happening? I think that the meaning of our lives is to discover that Truth (or Not), and when you realize the orientation of your soul, to follow it. Enlightened people have shown us the way throughout our history, and I feel more and more people are going to realize the path in time. Right now this country's political turmoil is coming from people's growing awareness that the majority of Politicians are in the service-to-self crowd. I think Bush is all about corporations and power, and basically so is Gore. Be it Standard Oil or Occidental Petroleum, both of these candidates have very strong ties to business. The abortion issue was the only bone the democrats threw us. Forget the Death Penalty. Forget the War on (Some) Drugs. So 50% of our country splits 50-50 on the vote. Not very inspiring. We have to do better than this! It shouldn't be about liberal or conservative any more, but about helping each other and not ourselves. PAC money must be abolished from government. It's time that we had a government that cared more about its citizens than the corporations that employ them. Politics should not be about money, but about helping each other realize our full potentials. It should be about nurturing growth, maintaining the infrastructure, and generally serving the public good. It should not be about legislating morality, the tax code, and permitting a distorted distribution of wealth. That's my two cents! Sorry for the long rant, but I had to get this off my chest and there was the thread... Let music ring! Robert Lovejoy - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Troxler" To: ; ; ; <*any*@westnet.com>; ; ; ; Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 11:21 PM Subject: Are there *any* Republicans/conservatives on this list??? > Geez, what a curse it has been to be born with a love of music, but also > with rightward political leanings :-) > > Obviously, it is not only this list, but a strange artifact of > artistically oriented people in general, that they tend to be > environmentalists, liberals, vegetarian, homosexual-aware, bla bla bla! > > Any theories as to why this is? > > I am not at all ridiculing that type of mentailty - rather, I'm > wondering why there seems to be a link between artistic personalities, > and that type of political view. Is it perhaps genetic? Maybe the type > of brain that is wired for art also typically is wired towards > left-tending political views? Or is it environmental/social, because > some existing correlation feeds on itself, so that someone artistically > or musically inclined, tends to interact with people who are also > left-political, which tends to further fuel the correlation? > > Certainly, there must be a lot of writing discussing the reasons for > this. Can anyone point me to some? > > A very interesting topic for me, since I seem to be the exception to the > rule. > > Larry > > > n.p. - Rush Limbaugh (ok, just kiding guys!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 20:03:17 -0500 From: Chuck Davis Subject: Re: Are there *any* Republicans/conservatives on this list??? jason and jill wrote: >Seriously--except for a few forms of art that are useful status symbols, >ie classical music from Bach through Tchaikovsky only, opera from Mozart >through Wagner only, exhibitions of long dead and well known painters, >etc., since roughly the late 1940's conservatives have shown disdain for >artists, art afficianados, anyone that claims to have read more three >books in a year, etc. Is it any wonder that artistic folks wouldn't >have much use for a generally pedestrian political philosophy (market, >market market Chicago school economy mixed with George Wallacite social >exclusion as translated by Buchanan having replaced pretty much any >previous conservative "thinkers") that regards those artistic folks as >being a bunch of useless, wimpy, unprofitable, whining fags? Whoa! That's pretty fierce (and an extreme stereotype). Do you folks live in Florida? :^) C. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:35:09 -0500 (EST) From: jason and jill Subject: Re: Are there *any* Republicans/conservatives on this list??? On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Chuck Davis wrote: > jason and jill wrote: > > >being a bunch of useless, wimpy, unprofitable, whining fags? > > Whoa! That's pretty fierce (and an extreme stereotype). Do you folks > live in Florida? :^) > > C. Used to. Central Florida. Brevard County. Couldn't wait to leave, mainly because my extreme stereotype is pretty accurate, at least of the conservatives I was exposed to in Florida. Republicans here in the Philadelphia area are pretty mild. Sure, there are a good handful of haters (and that's Buchanan's phrase, not mine), mostly white flighters orignally from Philadelphia, but for the most part Republicans here are inoffensive. I've even voted for a few of them. (I live in eastern Montgomery County, and most of the Republican officeholders here are less conservative than Florida Democrats outside of Dade and Broward counties). One problem with the whole conservative/liberal fight crap is that a good third of the people are neither, but we get very little representation. Jason ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:35:21 -0500 From: "Robert Lovejoy" Subject: Re: an interesting thought - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Zitt" To: Cc: Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 2:28 PM Subject: Re: an interesting thought > A theory that is, of course, blown to shreds by the musical stagnation > of the Eisenhower 50s, the vitality of the Kennedy/Johnson 60s, and the > return of stagnation in the Gerald Ford 70s. With all due respect, the 50's were a vibrant time musically - in jazz, in an "underground" situation. BeBop and progressive jazz greatly matured that idiom. Kerouac and the Beats were very much alive and kicking. Conformity ruled, and McCarthy's HUAC was making life miserable for a lot of creative people. Times were hard in the 60's, as there was great polarization in the country. Longhairs were persecuted (Easy Rider), and there was a big war going on that was killing a lot of us. Those were painful (but worthwhile) changes, and the vitality of those times came from struggle. The popular music of our generation reflected that. And I don't remember everything being stagnant in the 70's, as Progressive Rock became fiercly creative and uplifting. While much of the country got invaded by the body-snatchers (turning disco into way of life), "underground" appeared, and as it was in the fifties, that's where exciting music went. Oh, yeah, they called it counterculture then, not underground. Point is, there's always great music, but in times of mass blandness it goes underground. When people start getting passionate, it becomes popular music. Robert Lovejoy catching up... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 20:35:57 -0600 (CST) From: "Mitchell A. Pravatiner" Subject: Recent threads The recent discussions of Samson's conclusions that Happy was not commercial enough remind me of Columbia's efforts to get Laura Nyro to change things in her recordings that would make them sell better to the mass market. But Laura stuck to her guns, and while her music never charted highly, it was better--and better remembered today--than if she had capitulated. Roger Ebert recently wrote that a reader had written him to ask, in relation to the film _The Contender_, why all the political films lately had a liberal bias. His reply was that while there are plenty of conservatives in Hollywood, they seem to prefer to express their politics in ways other than making films. So it is possible that conservatives with an interest in the kind of music we deal with here simply prefer to express their worldview in arenas other than music, and that conservatives who read this list prefer to expound on their views in fora other than tis one. As for substantive political views, I too am concerned that the economy and polity are turning into a dictatorship of the stockholder--where instead of the state being regarded as an end in itself as in traditional totalitarianism, the corporation, and profit, are ends in themselves. In this sort of system, the individual's highest calling is to maximize his economic utility. Not that the liberal orthodoxy is always sympathetic to individual freedom; witness the ideology of political correctness, etc., as manifested in speech codes and the like. While an ultimate victory for Bush is not yet a done deal, it is probably more than even money; hopefully, the very slim margins of Republican control in both houses of Congress will result in any flights of fancy by the right being held in check, to a substantial degree. Mitch ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:50:48 -0500 From: "Robert Lovejoy" Subject: Re: POL: Protest Hello, I took a look at the site, and one thing we have to remember is that the USA is not a democracy, but a republic. Now I'll have to do some research on that, but as I remember Republics basically have filters in them to avoid the foreseen chaos of a true democracy. Without the electoral college, if we just had a popular vote, I suspect the candidates would never go to Iowa but stay in the big cities where the big votes are. I like the STS (?) voting system as explained here a lot. (Irish? Australian?) I think popular vote or not, what's going on down in Florida is criminal. There was a major malfunction down there, and it is shameful. I'm afraid Mr. Bush's pouty whining to get on with it and make him Supreme Ruler do not enhance his appeal. It is blatantly obvious that a lot of votes were misplaced by confusing ballots, and his insistence to be declared winner now make him look petty. To go back to a previous letter, Service To Self. Robert Lovejoy Now I'm caught up. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:58:36 -0500 From: Richard Subject: Re: POL: Protest Robert Lovejoy wrote: > > I think popular vote or not, what's going on down in Florida is > criminal. There was a major malfunction down there, and it is shameful. > I'm afraid Mr. Bush's pouty whining to get on with it and make him Supreme > Ruler do not enhance his appeal. It is blatantly obvious that a lot of > votes were misplaced by confusing ballots, and his insistence to be declared > winner now make him look petty. To go back to a previous letter, Service To > Self. > I find it ironic that the party that's warning about getting bogged down in legal wrangling over the electoral dysfunction in Florida is the same party that spent five years and 61 million dollars of taxpayer money investigating a failed land deal and a blowjob. And they say they're worried that legal challenges to the election results will hurt our image abroad, will make us appear petty and disunited in the eyes of the world. Good lord. ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V6 #336 **************************