From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V6 #202 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Friday, July 14 2000 Volume 06 : Number 202 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Hi! [Bill Mazur ] Re: Spamster Spasms [Joseph Zitt ] Re: spamster spasms [Ted ] Re: song lyrics!!! [Bill Mazur ] Re: spamster spasms [Joseph Zitt ] Re: spamster spasms [Ted ] Today's your birthday, friends... [Mike Matthews ] I've said enough. [Ted ] Pinkie Maclure [anna maria "stjärnell" ] Re: Hi! [Andrew Fries ] (lp->digital) not really Re: Spamster Spasms [dmw ] Re: Hi! [Bill Mazur ] Re: Pinkie Maclure [Bill Mazur ] digital licensing, macster (help!), and napster ["Scott S. Zimmerman" ] Re: song lyrics!!! [Brian Bloom ] Re: song lyrics!!! [jjhanson@att.net] Re: spamster spasms ["Scott S. Zimmerman" ] Greeting and Annette Ducharme / Anet [Neile Graham ] Re: Greeting and Annette Ducharme / Anet ["Michael R. Colford" Subject: Re: Hi! A message to my dear friend Phil and the rest of my friends on Ecto: Welcome to Ecto Phil! I have been waiting for someone here on Ecto to give you a warm welcome as they did for me 18 months ago. Vickie and Neile, in particular, welcomed me with open arms when I first joined. To this day I remain grateful for that welcome. Unfortunately (from my perspective) these days it seems to me that a portion of the list seems to be more concerned about sustaining this debate on Napster. The glare of this raging debate seems to overshadowing all other posts right now. Phil, do you remember that I told you about how Ecto had interesting discussions about this really amazing artist named Happy Rhodes who writes beautiful music, has an amazing four octave voice and writes thoughtful, poignant and witty lyrics? Remember that I told you about how Ecto has interesting discussions about musical artists from many genres of music and film and art and all kinds of other interesting topics? Remember that I told you how Ecto very rarely had flame wars and prided itself on it's low signal-to-noise ratio? Remember how I told you that the majority of the people here on Ecto would be able to recognize and appreciate your wry, tongue-in-cheek British sense of humor? Well once upon a time all of that was true! Lately I have been really wondering if that culture exists here on this list any longer. We shall see... I hope so! I am very grateful for the friends that I have made on the list and the music that I have been turned on to here over the past 18 months! Thanks, Bill P.S. - Thanks to everyone who contributed to the JoRane discussion! All of the positive feedback on the list prompted me to add her disc to my collection. It is an extraordinary work! phil@tiaranetworks.com wrote: > Hello all, > > I have been lurking on Ecto for a few weeks now, since my old friend and > Ectophile Bill Mazur introduced me to the list. > > Bill and I have played music together on and off for years, and our musical > tastes are very similar. I've been enjoying the discussions immensely and > thought I would introduce myself. > > My name is Phil Hudson, I live in the redwoods in California, and I'm just > about old enough to remember that the introduction of the compact cassette, > with which we're now all familiar, inspired the same frantic piracy tirades > from the record industry that the current MP3 technology is doing today. > > Prior to this, virtually the only people who ever taped existing musical > content were small groups of "hobbyists", with expensive reel-to-reel decks. > I haven't really formed an opinion on the Napster scenario, but I think that > if the record companies had got their way 30 years ago, there wouldn't be > any audio cassette recorders in existence outside of studios and bulk > duplication plants. There would be only players for the labels' expensive > pre-recorded tapes. > > My favorite label, currently is Northside records (www.noside.com), with > which I'm sure many of you are familiar, as they feature such Northern > European talents as Hedningarna ( Touring the USA this year!) and Vasen. > For those of you interested in Slavic/Balkan women's ensembles, my favorite > group in the SF Bay area is called "Kitka" (www.kitka.com) A group of vocal > nightingales who have been recording and performing for about 10 years. > > You can check out short clips from their album at > http://www.kitka.com/music/index.html. Their arrangements can be quite > breathtaking. > > That's I know right now, (and I've just filled up my last brain cell, so I > think I'll go sit down for a while). > > Luck and Blessings > > Phil ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 01:19:43 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Spamster Spasms On Fri, Jul 14, 2000 at 01:22:45AM -0400, three damons wrote: > whats forcedexposure? http://www.forcedexposure.com/ is the web site of a distributor of mostly obscure music (though occasional semi-popular items, like Sonic Youth and Belle & Sebastian pop up there), > > But who gave the thieves the authority to determine what I am > > allowed to do? > > when you buy a car, it comes with a warranty. > > who gives thieves the right to deny you > your warranty just because they steal your car? To make that question meaningful, there would have to be some way in which one might try to use a warranty in the absence of the physical car. Without that, the question is effectively moot. And to make the question relevant, there would have to be some way in which one could easily duplicate the purchased content of the car (whatever that might be). Without that, the question is effectively irrelevant. > > > it also depends on what you're buying. > > > > > > > > > with software, you're essentially purchasing a [permanent?] lease of > > > use. > > > > If someone steals my Microsoft Office CD, am I thus morally bound to > > erase it from my hard drive? > > sigh. > i JUST explained that. > you're leasing use. > in theory, the cd-rom is unimportant. the copy on you comuter is > unimportant. And if the lease extends beyond the point of the theft of the CD-ROM, what does this suggest about one's access to the music one instance of which was on a CD that had been stolen? > liscening agreements generally specify how many computers you are > allowed > to use the software you are leasing on. > besides, i think you're morally bound to do everythng in your > power to topple microsoft. > since you asked. Heh. I tend to agree... though I prefer the judo approach, watching it trip over its own lawyers :-) > > > with artistic products, you're purchasing a hard copy of the art, > > > a physical thing. > > > > This assumes that "artistic products" refers to a very narrow subset > > of the visual arts, and ignores all other media. > > no it doesn't. > you purchase a hard copy of music when you buy a cd. > you prucahse a hard copy of a movie when you buy > a dvd or vhs tape.--- > wait, wait. > > now, i realize the semantics you're using, or thin i do. > i used 'hard copy' here specifically because ithink > purchasing a copy of an album over the internet > would be different in ways i didn't want to discuss. > > looking at your question, perhaps i should have said > 'physical copy'. This doesn't evade the problem, since it doesn't address the ways in which a CD is more like a CD-ROM than it is like a statue. (And what about live performance, broadcasts, concept arts, and ephemeral media?) And why do you want to avoid discussing the very relevant issue of music purchased over the Net? > > > does this answer your question? i'm not sure. > > > > A music CD is neither of the above, so it really doesn't address the > > issue. > > > > > the issue. > if you buy a cd, are you allowed, morally or legally, > to make a copy of it for personal use? > yes. > > now, if you don't OWN a copy of said cd, but still have purchased in > at one time in your life, are you also allowed? > > me, i think that answer is no. Here we might have to agree to disagree. But I'd be curious as to what you'd actually do if you found yourself in that situation. - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 02:21:45 -0400 From: Ted Subject: Re: spamster spasms three damons wrote: > > i hear they killed jfk too. The Mafia Killed JFK, Is there a link that you know of between the Mafia and the RIAA? > anarchy is progres sover tyrranny. > niether is as good as democracy. I don't disagree with you there, but what about a musical monopoly. > > old people aren't afraid of libraries. > They are irrationally afraid of MP3. > > [1] anything valued by poeple becomes valuable. > metallica's music is valued neough to become valuable. > no artist should *expect* wages like that, but no artist should be > *denied* > wages like that either. > > [2] art does not become perverse when driven by economics. > some of the best drama in history has been on commercial television. I keep missing the Athol Fugard hour, when's it on? > > some of the best music has been released on commercial labels. Do you wear a "Mullet"? > > economics may often dilute art, but not always. > worse is the implication that there's something wrong with wanting to > make > a living off of one's art. I was talking about a mindset, you can disagree with me if you wish, it's an ideal. You don't have to follow it. I wish you the best with whichever boy band you decide to join. > [3] art doesn't want to be free. > that's an empty, meaningless statement. > art wants nothing. So give it nothing. > people want things to be free, because then they can possess those > things for free. Some do. For instance Some people wanted the masters of Jimi Hendrix for free. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 23:34:17 -0700 From: Bill Mazur Subject: Re: song lyrics!!! Renee, My favorite set of Happy lyrics: All of "Save our Souls". In particular I love this passage: "Here we are reaching out for aliens looking for a salvation. Pity our emptyness... Save our Souls..." Thanks for bringing the discussion back to Happy. :-) Bill M. n.p. - Happy Rhodes _The Keep_ ReNeEz DaBoMb wrote: > Now in the spirit of the list.. I thought I would try to start a new thread... so heres the question(s)... > 1. What is your favorite Happy song lyric... > 2. WHat is your least favortie... > > here's mine... > My Fave. is "I am a scary girl, with a scary mind..." > my least fave. is "The woman just stared whlie the cat lay dieing, uh" > ~Renee > N.P. Matrix ST...I love the def Tones!!! > N.R. Jack Kerouac's On the Road > > -- > We have the sky to think about, and the world to lie apon... > and to live's to fly...so don't ask why, just shake the dust off of your wings and the tears out of your eyes. > ~Townes Van Zandt > (Thanx again Townes...) > -- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 01:47:23 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: spamster spasms On Fri, Jul 14, 2000 at 02:21:45AM -0400, Ted wrote: > The Mafia Killed JFK, Is there a link that you know of between the Mafia and the RIAA? Well, the connections between organized crime and at least the early days of the music industry have been well documented. > > old people aren't afraid of libraries. > > > > They are irrationally afraid of MP3. Depending on where you draw the line on "old", I may have to spank you, whippersnapper. > > [2] art does not become perverse when driven by economics. > > some of the best drama in history has been on commercial television. > > I keep missing the Athol Fugard hour, when's it on? "Master Harold and the Boys" was produced for television in 1985. He also appeared in the documentary "The Art of Influence" in 1997. Other films which he wrote or in which he appeared have been rebroadcast after their commercial runs. Really, it does help to do at least a *little* research before asking these things. - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 03:02:23 -0400 From: Ted Subject: Re: spamster spasms Joseph Zitt wrote: > On Fri, Jul 14, 2000 at 02:21:45AM -0400, Ted wrote: > > > The Mafia Killed JFK, Is there a link that you know of between the Mafia and the RIAA? > > Well, the connections between organized crime and at least the early days > of the music industry have been well documented. > > > > old people aren't afraid of libraries. > > > > > > > They are irrationally afraid of MP3. > > Depending on where you draw the line on "old", I may have to spank you, > whippersnapper. > > > > [2] art does not become perverse when driven by economics. > > > some of the best drama in history has been on commercial television. > > > > I keep missing the Athol Fugard hour, when's it on? > > "Master Harold and the Boys" was produced for television in 1985. > > He also appeared in the documentary "The Art of Influence" in 1997. > > Other films which he wrote or in which he appeared have been > rebroadcast after their commercial runs. > > Really, it does help to do at least a *little* research before > asking these things. > I am most dreadfully embarrassed. I bow to you, sir. Yes I should just concede that there are at times good shows on TV, Like "The Iron Chef" on the Food Network. And at times there are good albums on commercial labels, but "Bat out of Hell" wasn't one of them. Having said this, it doesn't change my opinion that it could be better. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 03:00:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Mike Matthews Subject: Today's your birthday, friends... i*i*i*i*i*i i*i*i*i*i*i *************** *****HAPPY********* **************BIRTHDAY********* *************************************************** *************************************************************************** *************** Mitch Pravatiner (mapravat@prairienet.org) **************** ************************ Rich R. (geg@waterw.com) ************************* *************************************************************************** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Mitch Pravatiner Mon July 14 1952 Cancer Rich R. Wed July 14 1954 Cancer John Zimmer Sun July 16 1961 Cancer Dan Stark Sun July 16 1961 Cancer Cathy Guetzlaff Mon July 18 1955 Cancer Vlad Sat July 18 1970 Warning: severe tire damage Jani Pinola Thu July 20 1972 Jonquil Alvin Brattli Sun July 27 1969 Lefthanded Christy Eger Smith Thu July 27 1944 Horse Crossing Shirley Ye July 27 Lioness woj Sun July 28 1968 children at play John Relph Sat July 28 1962 Leo Bob Kollmeyer Wed July 28 1971 Leo Steve Lusky Tue July 29 1952 Bike! Kate Bush Wed July 30 1958 God Chuck Smith Wed July 30 1958 Reboot Yves Denneulin Fri July 30 1971 Lion-Heart Joel Kenyon Wed July 31 1963 Leo Eli Brandt August 05 Leo Martin Bridges Sat August 08 1970 BigGuy Happy Rhodes Mon August 09 1965 HolyGhost Michael Stevens Sat August 12 1967 For Sale or Lease - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 03:16:00 -0400 From: Ted Subject: I've said enough. At this point in the ongoing debate over Napster I feel it will be counter productive to continue, the debate will rage on I'm sure, but I am voluntarily removing myself from it. I do not want to continue striving with the opposition on this list, as it serves to cause division among a fine group of people, some of whom are simply misguided, a couple of whom will not change their view because it is their job not to. As for the rest of you, I am sure that the majority of you, being slightly more sophisticated your average alt.whatever list can make your own decisions as to whether Vickie and I are thieves, All this quibbling has served at least one purpose, it has reminded me that I have a book overdue. One last word to Vickie who asked if anybody caught the Committee Hearings... I found it very disturbing to be on the same side of a debate as Sen. Hatch. I think I am going to his web site so I can purchase a few of his CDs and sample them into my next Hard-core Industrial tune. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 02:24:31 -0700 (PDT) From: anna maria "stjärnell" Subject: Pinkie Maclure Hi.. Should recommend pinkie Maclure..She has the voice of a diva and the grooves of Portishead..Her album From memorial Crossing is ace. Also check out Dagmar 41 at www.dagmar41.de..She is a german singer with smart lyrics and great songs..Liten to her mp3s and fall in love. Anna Maria __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:53:16 +1000 From: Andrew Fries Subject: Re: Hi! On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Bill Mazur wrote: >I have been waiting for someone here on Ecto to give you a warm welcome Indeed. We have been slack... I still feel a bit funny welcoming new members to Ecto, but after all I *have* been here for over four years - I'm not the newest addition anymore :) So here we go: welcome to Ecto Phil, enjoy your stay! >Remember that I told you about how Ecto has interesting discussions >about musical artists from many genres of music and film and art and all kinds >of other interesting topics? Remember that I told you how Ecto very rarely had >flame wars and prided itself on it's low signal-to-noise ratio? Remember how I >told you that the majority of the people here on Ecto would be able to >recognize >and appreciate your wry, tongue-in-cheek British sense of humor? > >Well once upon a time all of that was true! Lately I have been really >wondering >if that culture exists here on this list any longer. We shall see... I >hope so! I hope so too. I think for all its ups and downs Ecto culture still exists. Thanks largely to people like you - Bill, you've always been the voice of moderation and reason. - ------------------------------------------------------ "Today I want to talk about piracy and music. What is piracy? Piracy is the act of stealing an artist's work without any intention of paying for it. I'm not talking about Napster-type software. I'm talking about major label recording contracts." -- Courtney Love - ------ http://www.zip.com.au/~afries/hall.html ------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:55:25 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: (lp->digital) not really Re: Spamster Spasms On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, three damons wrote: > me, i'm waiting till i can afford a cd burner for my > records,and then i'll copy them > i'd like the cds more, i generally don't > like background hiss and pops, and don't reallyhear the > difference between digital > and analog. unfortunately, the software to do that and make it sound even halfway decent costs a lot more than the burner :-( - -- d. - - oh no, you've just read mail from doug = dmw@radix.net - get yr pathos - - www.pathetic-caverns.com -- books, flicks, tunes, etc. = reviews - - www.fecklessbeast.com -- angst, guilt, fear, betrayal! = guitar pop ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 07:50:10 -0700 From: Bill Mazur Subject: Re: Hi! Andrew and the rest of my friends on Ecto, Thanks for your kind comments Andrew! I have always thought of you as a long time member of Ecto. Four years here would probably qualify you for that status. I always enjoy your posts because you introduce some very interesting artists to the group. I wanted to add a point of clarification to my post from last night. I have found the Napster discussion to be very interesting and informative. I believe these types of discussions are essential for Ecto. It just seems that the discussion has escalated to a very heated debate (maybe even a flame war) and has carried on for a long time here on Ecto to the point that (again in my opinion) it has made it difficult to slip another subject in side ways. Other posts have been ignored. For example, I really appreciated the points that Neile brought up in her recent post about being selective in the live shows that she attends. Her points I found interesting. I very much agree with the following point that Neile made in the post: I think the idea of live performance being the main way for artists to make money is far too limiting. Woj has recently sent some informative and fun posts as well. I must also say that I have been pretty hot and cold in my active participation in the community over the past six months for many valid personal reasons. However, I am going to make more of an effort to participate and contribute to the discussions in the group. I definitely enjoy reading all of the discussions. Love and peace to you all! Bill Andrew Fries wrote: > On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Bill Mazur wrote: > > >I have been waiting for someone here on Ecto to give you a warm welcome > > Indeed. We have been slack... I still feel a bit funny welcoming new > members to Ecto, but after all I *have* been here for over four years - > I'm not the newest addition anymore :) So here we go: welcome to Ecto > Phil, enjoy your stay! > > >Remember that I told you about how Ecto has interesting discussions > >about musical artists from many genres of music and film and art and all > kinds > >of other interesting topics? Remember that I told you how Ecto very > rarely had > >flame wars and prided itself on it's low signal-to-noise ratio? Remember > how I > >told you that the majority of the people here on Ecto would be able to > >recognize > >and appreciate your wry, tongue-in-cheek British sense of humor? > > > >Well once upon a time all of that was true! Lately I have been really > >wondering > >if that culture exists here on this list any longer. We shall see... I > >hope so! > > I hope so too. I think for all its ups and downs Ecto culture still > exists. Thanks largely to people like you - Bill, you've always been the > voice of moderation and reason. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > "Today I want to talk about piracy and music. > What is piracy? Piracy is the act of stealing > an artist's work without any intention of paying > for it. I'm not talking about Napster-type software. > I'm talking about major label recording contracts." > -- Courtney Love > ------ http://www.zip.com.au/~afries/hall.html ------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 08:04:13 -0700 From: Bill Mazur Subject: Re: Pinkie Maclure Thanks Anna Maria! "anna maria stjärnell" wrote: > Hi.. > Should recommend pinkie Maclure..She has the voice of > a diva and the grooves of Portishead..Her album From > memorial Crossing is ace. > Also check out Dagmar 41 at www.dagmar41.de..She is a > german singer with smart lyrics and great songs..Liten > to her mp3s and fall in love. > Anna Maria > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 08:45:39 -0700 (PDT) From: "Scott S. Zimmerman" Subject: digital licensing, macster (help!), and napster > > this point came up with someone else, and he basically felt > > entitled to perpetual ownership of > > any digital product he ever purchased. > > In the course of two mishaps, I lost several thousand records, tapes, > and CDs. I don't feel that the thieves have the authority to insist > that I no longer have the music. I think buying it once should be enough - almost as a case of the obvious if the original disc is actually destroyed and as a matter of principal if the music is stolen (especially for expensive computer software) As long as you don't willfully transfer your 'license' to someone else... Maybe music cds and cassettes, etc. should come with registration cards like software does, but I don't think many labels would want to keep track of those :) So, does anybody here use that macintosh equivalent of napster? It's called macster, and version 4.2 is aggravating--I can't for the life of me get an account registered! right after the 'welcome' message it comes back with 'invalid password.' I am anxious to download the equivalent in music of all the 'lost sales' I am suffering, but I am unable to... whine whine! I'm very curious to see how napster does against the major labels on its new grounds that the major labels abused their copyrights to enhance their monopoly and should therefore lose all of their copyrights [in the USA at least]. I wonder what these mysterious 'internal documents' actually say. This is what the federal trade commission was supposed to investigate long ago, but they investigated the completely stupid topic of cd pricing instead. At least if they were going to investigate something irrelevant, couldn't it have been a juicy sex scandal? I'm becoming increasingly displeased with the use of my tax dollars! Scott ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:17:23 -0400 From: Ted Subject: spamster spasms, Not oseph Zitt wrote: > On Fri, Jul 14, 2000 at 02:57:49AM -0400, Ted wrote: > > > "Bat Out of Hell" not a good album? Them's fightin' words!-) You *definitely* must wear a "Mullet". ted ( Joe, I originally mailed this to you privately by accident, the link to www.mulletsgalore.com was to a sort of mean spirited page, my apologies. The link should have been to http://www.mulletgods.com/ who appear to at least wash their hands after using the privy.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:25:33 -0700 From: Brian Bloom Subject: Re: song lyrics!!! 1. Favorite lyric: "and music hides me..so well, and reveals me... oh well..." Actually, that song is so short I could probably just quote the whole song as my favorite lyric.. ;) 2. Least favorite: I'm sure to be ousted as a heretic for this, but.... "Are you dancing dead, or maybe walking toast?..." * mooman ducks. moo. N.P. - Brunatex - "Cut" (well, as soon as I get home from work it will be. Maybe I should put S.T.B.P. [soon to be playing] :) N.R. - Robin Hobb - "Ship of Magic" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:38:02 +0000 From: jjhanson@att.net Subject: Re: song lyrics!!! 1. Favorite Lyric (this was tough--there are so many good ones!) "What if the man convicted innocent" (from To Live in Your World--actually the entire song has great lyrics) also like "A leaf fell, but didn't land" from I'm Not Awake, I'm Not Asleep--that entire song just really resonates with me 2. Least favorite: "Gonna need stronger underwear" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:51:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "Scott S. Zimmerman" Subject: Re: spamster spasms > Well, the connections between organized crime and at least the early days > of the music industry have been well documented. A new form of payola is here [although it still has existed in the form of drugs, sex, expensive lunches, etc.]. A lot of radio stations now are putting their playlists online (since they never back announce the songs anymore). The lists have links to the specific cd, made for sale - the stations then get of cut of each cd they sell... so [possibly] they're only playing what they can sell... beautiful.... this would be fine and dandy for internet-only radio which is open to anyone to operate, but for 'real' stations that are provided precious regulated space on the FM or AM band, this seems questionable....? Although I'm not sure why 'payola' was forced to be eliminated in the first place... Maybe it didn't have to do with the integrity of programming. Scott p.s. on the earlier subject of libraries, with 4000 people sharing only 2 copies of a book-- with an average checkout time of 2 weeks, it's going to take 75 years for everybody to be able to check out one of the copies, so I would guess the real ratio of people who eventually check out a book to the number of copies of a book is probably much more favorable and perfectly acceptable to most authors/publishers. On the music topic, if every library in the world would buy one copy of every cd released, i think all musicians would be able to make a living. [Space requirements and budget restraints make this impossible of course!] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 10:35:44 -0700 From: Neile Graham Subject: Greeting and Annette Ducharme / Anet Hi, all-- In the midst of all this discussion it does bother me how people talk past each and insult each other, but my favourite Happy lyrics are "Words weren't made for cowards". I don't know what my least favourite are. Mieu and Phil, and to the others new here, welcome to ecto. You should know that over time there has been a lot of discussion about artists you like such as Diamanda Galas, Portishead, Garbage and more. One of the best things about this list is the breadth of music interests. There are a lot of people who like soft folky pop, too, but that's only one part of the range. I don't know of any musical list that has a greater breadth and--usually a least--a high signal-to-noise ratio and a respect for different tastes and beliefs. I sorry that hasn't been the case recently. In one of those weird incidents of ecto-serendipity, I had recently finished Annette Ducharme's entry in The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music and had found very little information about her out there. Then I was working on Danielle French's entry (very pretty pop if anyone is looking for more along the Tara MacLean, recent Sarah line) and was looking for web sites to include in the See also section. I found her mp3.com site (it's http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/27/danielle_french.html for anyone who wants to check her out) and was in a browsing mood and saw under the Artists We Like section there she'd linked a band called Anet. So I clicked and recognized some of the song titles! Anet is Annette Ducharme, still busily producing music, and there are lots of sound samples for an album of hers I hadn't seen, called _Tortured_. She has a web site, http://www.anetmusic.com/, and is working on a new album. Great mainstream-kinda rock. - --Neile - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Neile Graham ...... http://www.sff.net/people/neile ....... neile@sff.net Les Semaines: A Weekly Journal . http://www.sff.net/people/neile/semaines The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music ....... http://www.smoe.org/ectoguide ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 13:47:26 -0700 From: "Michael R. Colford" Subject: Re: Greeting and Annette Ducharme / Anet Neile Graham wrote: > > In one of those weird incidents of ecto-serendipity, I had recently > finished Annette Ducharme's entry in The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music > and had found very little information about her out there. > > Then I was working on Danielle French's entry (very pretty pop if anyone is > looking for more along the Tara MacLean, recent Sarah line) and was looking > for web sites to include in the See also section. I found her mp3.com site > (it's http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/27/danielle_french.html for anyone > who wants to check her out) and was in a browsing mood and saw under the > Artists We Like section there she'd linked a band called Anet. So I clicked > and recognized some of the song titles! Anet is Annette Ducharme, still > busily producing music, and there are lots of sound samples for an album of > hers I hadn't seen, called _Tortured_. She has a web site, > http://www.anetmusic.com/, and is working on a new album. > > Great mainstream-kinda rock. Wow, after my success a couple weeks ago with favorite Canadian artists releasing new music, I was stunned to see the name Annette Duchamre here... especially with regard to new music! I discovered Annette way back in the mid-80's I think, with an album (whose name escapes me for the moment, and is not listed on the webapge). Really great, powerful pop-rock with a unique vocal style. Then I caught "Don't Argue With Her" another terrific pop-rock album. Really wonderful songs, like the exquisite "Best Waste of Time." Now to find out she has another new one! Let me at it! Can't wait to go home and listen to her old ones. Thanks for the tip, Neile! Michael C. n.p. Luscious Jackson - Electric Honey n.r. The Spirit Cabinet by Paul Quarrington http://www.chlotrudis.org/colford/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 13:03:46 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Greeting and Annette Ducharme / Anet On Fri, Jul 14, 2000 at 10:35:44AM -0700, Neile Graham wrote: > You should know that over time there has been a lot of discussion about > artists you like such as Diamanda Galas, Portishead, Garbage and more. One > of the best things about this list is the breadth of music interests. Which reminds me: I just got a wild Sheila Chandra CD, "EEP1", credited to Sheila Chandra and the Ganges Orchestra. It's about half an hour long, six tracks of her voice over various noisetronica. It was released in a limited issue of 1999, each copy autographed, by Indiepop records. If you listen to Sheila Chandra for relaxation and meditation, you'd probably do better with her RealWorld releases. But for good bracing surprise, with her usual excellent vocals, this is worth grabbing, if you can find it. (I believe I got mine at Amoeba in San Francisco, though it may have been Amoeba or Rasputin in Berkeley, since I hit all of them in the same binge.) - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 19:10:29 +0100 From: "Adam Kimmel" Subject: Acoustic Vaudeville rolls in and out of London I saw Aimee Mann and Michael Penn in their "Acoustic Vaudeville" tour last night at the Shepherd's Bush Empire: Two of the best singer/songwriters around, two people I'd give my left arm to see on their own, and it was ---- well, rather ordinairy. From the name of the tour, I had expected more of a concept, something different, but it was very much a concert like any other. Sad to say (and I know I risk flaming for saying this) Aimee is not the most charismatic performer, even less so than when i saw her the last time she toured England (I think about four years ago). Michael Penn was marginally better, but the idea of having a stand-up comedian to do their between song banter turned out to be inspired. The sound was pretty good, the band excellent, with Patrick Warren lending his vast talents and instrumentation (will somebody tell me what kind of thing it is that he plays that makes that unique noise? It looked like a pedal/steel guitar from where I was) -- it was all tight, entertaining enough, but kind of laid back and uninspired. I kept hoping they'd crank it up a gear, but they never did. Just as they looked like they were beginning to have fun, (a particularly uproarious version of Penn's "Brave New World") it was over. Oh well -- now all I have to do is buy "Bachelor #2" and "MP4" (onsale in the lobby, but for a scandalous £15 --- something close to $25). np - Witness - Before the Calm nr - The Bone People (almost done, thank god) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:54:22 -0700 From: phil@tiaranetworks.com Subject: RE: FW: spamster spasms Joseph, thanks for responding; I have elaborated below on my original post and your questions. Regards Phil - -----Original Message----- From: Joseph Zitt [mailto:jzitt@metatronpress.com] Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2000 7:45 PM To: phil@tiaranetworks.com Cc: ecto@smoe.org Subject: Re: FW: spamster spasms On Thu, Jul 13, 2000 at 11:18:39AM -0700, phil@tiaranetworks.com wrote: > Yes, art does, and nearly always has, become perverse under economic > direction. Anyone who disagrees with this has obviously never seen network > TV. >>A classic logical error: the assumption that a single instance of a >>correlation proves that it is true in other (or all) cases. Dang, I hate making classic logical errors; could it be that there are other instances that I omitted for the sake of brevity? Hmmm, lessee; offhand, I could think of advertising in general, corporate and municipal art, any instance of money controlling or directing the creative process. I think what I was really getting at here is that nearly all modern artists seem to find themselves constrained by the organizations for whom they work. These constraints generally take the form of pushing the music in the direction of a wider market base, sometimes in complete opposition to the artistic vision. In retrospect, maybe "perverse" was really the wrong word; "subverted" might be more apt. > With virtually any mass-produced craft, once money gets involved,it's > really not art any more; it's product. >>How large a distribution is "mass-produced"? Greater than 1? Greater >>than one million? I don't think that was the point I was trying to make there; If something is being created for the purpose of profit, it's very hard to resist the external pressures that wish to give it that broader commercial appeal. Even Peter Gabriel, the major deity in my personal pantheon, who nearly went flat broke maintaining the integrity of his music, had to finally pay a little lip service to the mass market. And anyone who saw the first "So" tour got an idea of how wickedly he and his band sent themselves up for "selling out": Levin and Rhoades both pranced around the stage in full length leather duster coats, with colored mohawk wigs, and all the rock godling postures imaginable. Critical successes are not often financial ones and it's hard to work on your freedom of expression with some gravy train A&R pustule breathing down the back of your neck and threatening to pull the plug. >>Is great art impossible under externally imposed ideals? What do you >>think of the relevant works by Shostakovitch? I find the early stuff that he did that was condemned by the Communists as "decadent and bourgeois" to be the most inspired and spirited of his works. (But then I just love that shit-kickin' Gypsy stuff) I'm not really familiar with his entire life and ouevre, or, for that matter what you mean by "relevant"; are you talking about the stuff he did that fit the Communist Party guidelines, or the movie soundtracks, or his string quartets or what? When you think about it " Your music is not inspiring and uplifting to the People's Glorious Movement, comrade" is not really that much different in essence from " Our demographic markets are a little younger; could you pull out the flute solo and make it a little more upbeat? We need to sell more Cheetos" Same old song, different target market, different carrots, (sorry Dmitri; this analogy is rather broad!). Generally speaking, I think it can be argued that great art often flourishes under externally imposed ideas, as a reaction to those very impositions. That's what artistic "reform" has always been about hasn't it? The Blues immediately comes to mind as an obvious example. What amount of wages do you think would be appropriate? $1/year? $100,000/year? How would the appropriate level be determined? I'm really not interested in telling people how much they can or cannot earn; that's no different from telling people what they can and cannot compose or play, or watch, or think. But how many bottles of champagne can one drink in one day/week/lifetime? How many Roll-Royces does one REALLY need? How many mansions? There are people out there living in goddamned cardboard boxes, and Bill Gates is worth about $50 billion by today's stock prices. I'm not saying people should take his money away from him, I'm saying people who get really rich appear to lose a lot of their humanity. They should get a clue by themselves, not with prompting from anyone else. The last I heard, Peter Townsend now gives away 50% of his money to the taxman, and the other 50% to mostly musically-related charity projects. He feels he just doesn't NEED any more than he has. That is an act of purity and enlightenment, not one of self-absorption and greed. If I had 40 billion, I'd have to give most of it away. If you blew a million a day for the rest of your life you still couldn't get rid of it all. My point was really; everyone gets too greedy, and the money takes over from the artistic vision as the primary motivation. "He who dies rich, dies shamed" Andrew Carnegie > You cannot simply help yourself to another's property because you feel that > they have more than they should be allowed; you're simply setting your up > own opinions as the supreme arbiter of right and wrong. >>And are you not doing the same in the questioned statements above? No. "I could be arguing in my spare time" -John Cleese If I gave you the impression that I was setting myself up as supreme arbiter, I apologize, that was not my intention. I tried that about 20 years ago. It was kinda fun for the night until the LSD wore off. ;-) Regards Phil ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V6 #202 **************************