From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V6 #161 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Wednesday, June 7 2000 Volume 06 : Number 161 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Napster [Andrew Fries ] Re: Reviewers needed! [Bill Adler ] Napster [anna maria "stjärnell" ] re: Napster [Tom Ditto ] Re: Napster [Neile Graham ] Re: Napster [Joseph Zitt ] Re: Reviewers needed! ["Joanna M. Phillips" ] Re: Napster [Joseph Zitt ] Re: Napster [Ted ] New Holly Cole Album [jjhanson@att.net] Re: Napster [jason and jill ] Re: Reviewers needed! [Jay Behel ] Re: Napster [jason and jill ] Re: Napster [Joseph Zitt ] Re: Napster [Joseph Zitt ] Napster compromise? [Sue Trowbridge ] Re: Napster compromise? [Joseph Zitt ] Re: Napster [Neile Graham ] Re: Napster compromise? [Neile Graham ] Re: Napster compromise? [Sue Trowbridge ] Re: Napster compromise? [Neal Copperman ] Re: New Holly Cole Album [meredith ] whatever happened to ... [meredith ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 22:33:00 +1000 From: Andrew Fries Subject: Re: Napster On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Joseph Zitt wrote: >Unfortunately, AFAIK, there is no way to indicate in an MP3 >whether it's artist-authorised. It seems to me that some combination >of an ID3 field and a PGP-like signature could somehow indicate that >an MP3 was authorised by the musicians. A Gnutella-like client could >then check that field and alert the fan, who would then be free to >choose whether to download it or not based on that person's moral >sense of whether the artist's wishes are to be honored. well, it'd be a sensible compromise, as long as it remains voluntary rather than enforced by some encryption scheme or other! >I'm just a good enough programmer to be pretty sure that it's >possible, but not how to implement it. Luckily it doesn't take much programming at all. Technology for such a scheme already exists: paper and ink! Because really, wouldn't it be easier, and just as effective (or ineffective) to put a sticker on each CD, or print somewhere on the sleeve "please don't duplicate my music" or else, "go ahead, knock yourself out!"? Include the same statement on the artist's website (after all just about every artist has one by now!), and anyone could very easily discover the artist's position on this issue - if they care to look. How many people do you think would bother? I think this is not really a technical problem, but a moral one. We have a lot of debate, but not a lot of hard data, about the true influence of Napster and music downloads in general on sales. One article I've read quotes some executive stating that sales of CDs actually increased of late, so it well might be the whole fight is not even necessary and is simply a knee-jerk response of the industry. Ah. Here is this word: industry. Music is a big, big business, and perhaps Napster might be a threat to the incomes of Metallica or Sony. I mention the band and the recording company in one sentence on purpose - in that Slashdot interview Lars makes it perfectly clear Metallica are in the business of producing commodity, for which they expect to be paid at market rate. Right or wrong, but surely hypocritical... but I digress. My point is this: I don't see Napster as a threat to independent artists such as those that make up the bulk of Ecto. Why? Because the relationship between, say, Sarah Slean and her fans is different to the relationship of Metallica and their followers. It's much more personal, and consisting of much more than just spending money on the latest CD! Sarah wrote me a little note, so did her manager - would I rip her off now? Not very likely. Would I rip off someone like dmw, self-financing their record and planning to sell it for just enough to recoup the cost? Of course not. I would contribute to indie artists upkeep, because I know I want them around, and frankly, because I *like* the fact they are not mainstream. Yep, that old exclusivity factor again! On the other hand, would I download this huge, corporate, selling-in-millions Metallica? Well no, actually I wouldn't - but that's simply because I never gave a toss about Metallica. Napster *might* be a threat to the big music business and that's not necessarily a bad thing. I agree that musicians should be able to make decent living from what they do, but do they really have to make millions, become larger than life, be idolized, cross-marketed, gossiped about and occasionally shot dead? I for one would be very happy to see all of that vanish like a bad dream, leaving behind music as a cottage industry; still a business, but on much smaller and more human scale, with smaller ambitions, smaller profits and smaller promotion budgets, more joy and fewer middlemen... I believe it's possible, because after all most music I listen to even now comes from such environment! Like dave , I want good music to continue. I just happen to think a bit of shake-up of the whole system is the best way of making sure that it does. - ------------------------------------------------------ "You know you're a Mac addict when you build your house without windows or gates." - ------ http://www.zip.com.au/~afries/hall.html ------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:08:52 -0400 From: Bill Adler Subject: Re: Reviewers needed! Neile, I'll volunteer for a couple reviews in the "folksy folk music, with rich vibrato voiced female vox" category. I'm also planning to write a review for the EctoGuide of The Velvet Janes (www.velvetjanes.com), a female duo from Australia. - --Bill At 09:44 PM 6/6/00 -0700, Neile Graham wrote: >The Ectophiles' Guide has a backlog of discs available for review right >now, and could really use some reviewers willing to take some of these on. > >The rules of EctoGuide Review engagement are: > >1. You either like(ish) the disc or commit to forwarding it to someone else. >2. Can do the review in a reasonable(ish) amount of time. >3. Keep the disc in return for the comments (or sell it, I won't tell). >4. I do the basic page, you do the qualitative stuff, so it's basically > a fill in the blanks thing. >5. First one to claim a disc gets it. > >Here are rough descriptions of things we have available right now. Please >let me know if anything sounds interesting to you, and I send you the full >list of the artists and albums with links to sites for samples (when >available). All female vocals except the two noted. > >--straightforward folk >--male folk/rock with some ballads >--"alternative acoustic" sensitive guy pop >--folksy country swing/contemporary singersongwriter mix >--folksy folk music, with rich vibrato voiced female vox >--cabaret/light jazz music with accordion--a variety of styles of jazz > from Latin to beatnick-y, light-hearted & fun tone throughout >--nicely instrumented rock with woman-centred, sometimes preachy sometimes > relationship lyrics--husky alto kind of voice >--brassy-voiced but sometimes pretty-voiced singer with energetic pop/rock > sound >--ethereal with a contemporary folk, almost country sensibility--mellow, > pretty folk/pop > >Step right up! > >--Neile > > > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >Neile Graham ...... http://www.sff.net/people/neile ....... neile@sff.net >Les Semaines: A Weekly Journal . http://www.sff.net/people/neile/semaines >The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music ....... http://www.smoe.org/ectoguide ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:35:29 -0700 (PDT) From: anna maria "stjärnell" Subject: Napster Hi.. My view of mp3 downloads etc..To those of us that cant download tracks cause our computers are too outdated(a diminishing group of people granted)..they are a good way of deciding if a cd is worth the money or not. Downloading stuff and not buying cds is bad for the artists of course. But most of us on ecto love music and are devoted to supporting independent artists. I'm more into listening to mp3s by artists I've never heard than famous ones. But of course many people do not funtcion this way.. Anna Maria np-Alice Texas-Gold __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:59:40 -0400 From: Tom Ditto Subject: re: Napster The radio metaphor fails, in part, because Napster/Gnutella operate on a two-way medium, whereas radio is transmission only. The radio stations pay out a hefty fee for their carriage, and the fees assume some piracy on the receiving end. All is made up in advertising dollars. A distinction I like to make between artists and the companies that produce and distribute the artists' work is that for the former money is a tool used toward the end goal of making art, but for the latter money is a goal; and the music is simply the chief tool. Since the companies put money as an objective, they make certain to keep their money. As a result of the dynamic orginating with this distinction, the erosion of fiscal resources represented by piracy will affect the artists first and worst. All this self-serving talk by Napster/Gnutella enthusiasts that by stealing they are helping starving artists is for the most part false and rings to my ears like an addict's rationalization for whatever level of crime supports the illicit habit. If you want to help artists, organize support groups, encourage recognition by advertising and build up critical awareness. This can be done without anonymously stealing their music. Since the Napster/Gnutella conspiracy is going to be dragged into courts under the sway of American and English tradition, the operative principle will inevitably become "private property is the basis of law." I foresee that there will be payment schemes developed that put the hand of the music industry right into the listeners' pockets using the two-way capability of the internet. This won't eliminate piracy, but it will put penalties on piracy and leave tracers using internet snooping to help gum shoes run down malfeasants. Joe Zitt and I had a one day exchange on all this last week, and he argued for compromise. That would be nice, but given the current polarization, I forecast a war pushing those of us in the middle into opposing camps which I categorized as the copyright lawyers vs. the anarchists. Neither of these cultures is satisfactory to most of us, and after a few oscillations between the extremes, we will settle into an equitable means of distributing music by internet. Just what that will be remains to be seen, but it must be sufficiently remunerative to support the artists at the originating end of this commerce. Dr. Tom ditto@taconic.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:12:55 -0700 From: Neile Graham Subject: Re: Napster One point of law about all this (I'm not a lawyer but I am a writer so I've looked long and hard at copyright law and been to workshops and panels where professionals did discuss it): At 10:33 PM +1000 6/7/00, Andrew Fries wrote: >On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Joseph Zitt wrote: > >>Unfortunately, AFAIK, there is no way to indicate in an MP3 >>whether it's artist-authorised. It seems to me that some combination >>of an ID3 field and a PGP-like signature could somehow indicate that >>an MP3 was authorised by the musicians. A Gnutella-like client could >>then check that field and alert the fan, who would then be free to >>choose whether to download it or not based on that person's moral >>sense of whether the artist's wishes are to be honored. > >well, it'd be a sensible compromise, as long as it remains voluntary >rather than enforced by some encryption scheme or other! > >>I'm just a good enough programmer to be pretty sure that it's >>possible, but not how to implement it. >Luckily it doesn't take much programming at all. Technology for such a >scheme already exists: paper and ink! Because really, wouldn't it be >easier, and just as effective (or ineffective) to put a sticker on each >CD, or print somewhere on the sleeve "please don't duplicate my music" or >else, "go ahead, knock yourself out!"? Include the same statement on the >artist's website (after all just about every artist has one by now!), and >anyone could very easily discover the artist's position on this issue - >if they care to look. If an author did in some way officially indicate that they didn't mind anyone copying any of their music, they are in effect leagally giving up copyright to that music, and _anyone_ could then copy it without paying them, from advertisements to other record companies they haven't signed with--you cannot legally distinguish between someone doing it individually or someone making a profit on it. That's why many people are so anxious to asset their copyright in the first place. And no record company would want their artists to give away their ability to make a profit off them. - --Neile - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Neile Graham ...... http://www.sff.net/people/neile ....... neile@sff.net Les Semaines: A Weekly Journal . http://www.sff.net/people/neile/semaines The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music ....... http://www.smoe.org/ectoguide ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 11:00:32 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Napster On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 10:33:00PM +1000, Andrew Fries wrote: > My point is this: I don't see Napster as a threat to independent artists > such as those that make up the bulk of Ecto. Why? Because the > relationship between, say, Sarah Slean and her fans is different to the > relationship of Metallica and their followers. It's much more personal, > and consisting of much more than just spending money on the latest CD! > Sarah wrote me a little note, so did her manager - would I rip her off > now? Not very likely. Would I rip off someone like dmw, self-financing > their record and planning to sell it for just enough to recoup the cost? > Of course not. I would contribute to indie artists upkeep, because I know > I want them around, and frankly, because I *like* the fact they are not > mainstream. Yep, that old exclusivity factor again! On the other hand, > would I download this huge, corporate, selling-in-millions Metallica? > Well no, actually I wouldn't - but that's simply because I never gave a > toss about Metallica. But Metallica got where it was by connecting to fans rather like Sarah Slean, et al, did: by connecting with fans and making them feel part of the loop. AFAIK, Jason Newsted makes a point of meeting with fans on tour, and there are a lot of people who have that personal contact history with them. It's a truism in politics that if you're shaken a person's hand, you have his/her vote. Similarly, if an artist can make a contact with a fan, in such a way that it was evident that the artist was aware, if even for a moment, of that person's existence and devotion, the fan's loyalty is strengthened. I suspect that, Napster or not, the huge majority of fans who have had personal contact with Metallica will continue to buy each album they do, unless/until they perceive the band as having dissed their fandom (as I suspect may be true of some of the people on the list that Metallica turned over to Napster -- a move I suspect the band is regretting). But what happens when an artist hops the popularity line, like Sarah MacLachlan, Tori, or (to a smaller extent) Ani DiFranco? Does your relationship to them change radically? Is it possible to retain the feeling of personal connection when you have millions of fans? - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 11:57:16 -0400 From: "Joanna M. Phillips" Subject: Re: Reviewers needed! Dear Neile, I volunteer for the straightforward folk. :-) fleur At 12:56 AM 06/07/2000 , you wrote: > >The Ectophiles' Guide has a backlog of discs available for review right >now, and could really use some reviewers willing to take some of these on. > >The rules of EctoGuide Review engagement are: > >1. You either like(ish) the disc or commit to forwarding it to someone else. >2. Can do the review in a reasonable(ish) amount of time. >3. Keep the disc in return for the comments (or sell it, I won't tell). >4. I do the basic page, you do the qualitative stuff, so it's basically > a fill in the blanks thing. >5. First one to claim a disc gets it. > >Here are rough descriptions of things we have available right now. Please >let me know if anything sounds interesting to you, and I send you the full >list of the artists and albums with links to sites for samples (when >available). All female vocals except the two noted. > >--straightforward folk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 11:06:43 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Napster On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 09:59:40AM -0400, Tom Ditto wrote: > A distinction I like to make between artists and the companies that produce and > distribute the artists' work is that for the former money is a tool used toward > the end goal of making art, but for the latter money is a goal; and the music is > simply the chief tool. Since the companies put money as an objective, they make > certain to keep their money. As a result of the dynamic orginating with this > distinction, the erosion of fiscal resources represented by piracy will affect > the artists first and worst. In his Slashdot interview, Lars Ulrich makes the good point that record companies are more or less like banks. That what they do involves music is almost irrelevant -- after all a lot of the music put out today is done by branches of Seagrams, which is better known as a liquor provider. In the huge majority of cases where a group's/company's primary mission shifts from "doing what we do well" to "maximizing stockholder profit", the point of what was originally being done gets lost. But I'll spare y'all my standard rant on the inherent sillinesses of capitalism... - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 12:06:10 -0400 From: Ted Subject: Re: Napster Tom Ditto wrote: > All this self-serving talk by Napster/Gnutella enthusiasts that by stealing they > are helping starving artists is for the most part false and rings to my ears > like an addict's rationalization for whatever level of crime supports the > illicit habit. Wot say ye about the illicit habit of drinking 7 and 7's until consumers appear to to be Nazis and Communists bent on invading England, and you're Winston Churchill! Perhaps we need more jails, do you think that could be the answer? If napster users are thieves, then they should be put in jail. You could have posted your analogy without inflammatory metaphors. In the end an analogy is only an analogy. I do not base my conclusions using analogies as premise. Critical awareness starts here: Napster users *are* the consumers of the present and of the future. How we evolve to serve them will determine our place on the food chain. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 16:23:03 +0000 From: jjhanson@att.net Subject: New Holly Cole Album Hello folks, The Holly Cole web-site has finally been updated (www.hollycole.com) and it includes samples of the songs on the new album. The new album, Romantically Helpless, is due out in Canada on June 13th. `It was apparently released June 3rd in Japan--won't be released in the U.S. until sometime this fall. I've pre-ordered my copy (and Neal's) from HMV--if you pre-order they will send you autographed copies as well as an additional single for Make It Go Away (I wonder if this is the same Make It Go Away as was on her last album?). Plus, with the exchange rate, it's a great price--they also didn't charge me for shipping and handling--not sure why but I wasn't going to complain (could be because of the size of the order I placed!) The track listing is as follows--doesn't look like Precious Heart made the album (damn--I was looking forward to hearing her do that song) One Trick Pony m Romantically Helpless I'll Be Here Come Fly With Me Dedicated to the One I Love That Old Black Magic If I Start to Cry Loving You Make it Go Away Don't Fence Me In Same Girl For you lucky Canucks here's her tour schedule: Holly Cole Canadian Tour Winnipeg, MB June 21 Vancouver, BC June 23 Victoria, BC June 24 Edmonton, AB June 26 Calgary, AB June 27 Regina, SK June 30 Saskatoon, SK July 2 Montreal, PQ July 5 St. Irenee, PQ July 6 Unfortunately, that's about the extent of the info on the new web-site. Jeff Hanson n.p. Kitchens of Distinction - Cowboys and Aliens n.r. How the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents - Julia Alvarez ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:31:53 -0400 (EDT) From: jason and jill Subject: Re: Napster On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Ted wrote: > Perhaps we need more jails, do you think that could be the answer? > If napster users are thieves, then they should be put in jail. That's one solution. > Critical awareness starts here: > Napster users *are* the consumers of the present and of the future. > How we evolve to serve them will determine our place on the food chain. Napster users are no more consumers than shoplifters are consumers. The only difference is that one has to walk in the store to steal, while the other clicks a mouse. There's been a lot of bull that music wants to be free. Music is simply a product of human effort and labor, and human effort and labor does not want to be free. People want something in exchange for their efforts and labors, and money is the most convenient way for someone to receive the benefit of his or labors. Napster users say that musicians get in exchange more publicity and exposure. So the hell what? So that the musician can use that exposure and publicity to make more music for the napster user to rip off? Or maybe use the exposure to get movie roles, so the napster use can rip off the movie. The napster user takes from the artist and offers nothing in return except the promise of future stealing. A couple of quotes, first from Lincoln: "It is the eternal struggle between two principles -- right and wrong -- throughout the world. It is the same spirit that says: You toil and work and earn bread -- and I'll eat it... No matter in what shapes it comes...it is the same tyrannical principle." Less incendiary in background, a quote from Harlan Ellision yesterday, after he sued somoene who posted his stories and AOL, with the Defendants saying "No mas." : "These people have been told that it's OK for them to steal. I'm going to take them down because the old Wild West is finished. We're not going to put up with this crap any more. My work is my work. It is my property ... I'm a writer. All I have to support me in my declining old age as I turn to rot is the work I have written. It can not be bandied about and passed around on the Internet just because some pissant thinks they have a right to do it. " Jason ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1970 00:00:00 -0500 (EST) From: Jay Behel Subject: Re: Reviewers needed! Neile, I'll take cabaret and/or woman-centered rock and/or country-swing/singer-songwriter. Jay On Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:44:10 -0700 Neile Graham wrote: > >The Ectophiles' Guide has a backlog of discs available for review right >now, and could really use some reviewers willing to take some of these on. > >The rules of EctoGuide Review engagement are: > >1. You either like(ish) the disc or commit to forwarding it to someone else. >2. Can do the review in a reasonable(ish) amount of time. >3. Keep the disc in return for the comments (or sell it, I won't tell). >4. I do the basic page, you do the qualitative stuff, so it's basically > a fill in the blanks thing. >5. First one to claim a disc gets it. > >Here are rough descriptions of things we have available right now. Please >let me know if anything sounds interesting to you, and I send you the full >list of the artists and albums with links to sites for samples (when >available). All female vocals except the two noted. > >--straightforward folk >--male folk/rock with some ballads >--"alternative acoustic" sensitive guy pop >--folksy country swing/contemporary singersongwriter mix >--folksy folk music, with rich vibrato voiced female vox >--cabaret/light jazz music with accordion--a variety of styles of jazz > from Latin to beatnick-y, light-hearted & fun tone throughout >--nicely instrumented rock with woman-centred, sometimes preachy sometimes > relationship lyrics--husky alto kind of voice >--brassy-voiced but sometimes pretty-voiced singer with energetic pop/rock > sound >--ethereal with a contemporary folk, almost country sensibility--mellow, > pretty folk/pop > >Step right up! > >--Neile > > > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >Neile Graham ...... http://www.sff.net/people/neile ....... neile@sff.net >Les Semaines: A Weekly Journal . http://www.sff.net/people/neile/semaines >The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music ....... http://www.smoe.org/ectoguide > > Jay M. Behel, Ph.D. \"When I dare to be powerful-to use my strength in the service of my vision, then it begins to matter less and less whether I am afraid.\" Audre Lorde ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:09:08 -0400 (EDT) From: jason and jill Subject: Re: Napster On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Andrew Fries wrote: > Luckily it doesn't take much programming at all. Technology for such a > scheme already exists: paper and ink! Because really, wouldn't it be > easier, and just as effective (or ineffective) to put a sticker on each > CD, or print somewhere on the sleeve "please don't duplicate my music" or > else, "go ahead, knock yourself out!"? Include the same statement on the > artist's website (after all just about every artist has one by now!), and > anyone could very easily discover the artist's position on this issue - > if they care to look. Hmm, I think something like that already exists. Oh yeah, there on the edge of the CD: All rights of the producer and the owner of the work reproduced reserved. Unauthorized copying, hiring, lending, public performance and broadcasting of this record is prohibited. Which word between "is" and "prohibited" needs to be clarified? :) Jason ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:06:14 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Napster All of which shows, again, that while Napster/Gnutella are useful technologies, which it will be impossible to stuff back into the bottle, we need some way to label MP3s or their equivalents and analogues as verifiably authorised by the artist. On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 01:31:53PM -0400, jason and jill wrote: > On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Ted wrote: > > Perhaps we need more jails, do you think that could be the answer? > > If napster users are thieves, then they should be put in jail. > > That's one solution. And it would probably be a good thing if a case would go through the courts sooner rather than later, and we would know for sure (at least for the moment) whether it is to be considered legal or not to either post or download works without artist consent. On the other hand, legality tends to be on a nation-by-nation basis (though there are international copyright agreements). I think Vickie is headed toward something useful in putting out only the small amounts of music that might be put out via radio (come to think of it, where does Shoutcast fit into all this?). It might be considered equivalent to, say, those promotional CDs that come with more and more music magazines. There, again, though, only material that the artist or his/her representatives has authorised is out there. How do these fit in to all this? It's clear that demonising either Napster/Gnutella users or the music industry is unproductive and serves only to stop people from achieving a solution. Where is the middle ground? - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:15:15 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Napster On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 02:09:08PM -0400, jason and jill wrote: > All rights of the producer and the owner of the work reproduced > reserved. Unauthorized copying, hiring, lending, public performance and > broadcasting of this record is prohibited. > > Which word between "is" and "prohibited" needs to be clarified? :) The interesting questions involve determining whether something is authorized. And what would "unauthorised lending" be? At one end of the distribution spectrum, wouldn't everyone agree that it is OK for me to lend someone my instance of a CD? (Situations that result in both myself and another person having aurally indistinguishable instances of the music are clearly different from whatever that is.) - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:06:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Sue Trowbridge Subject: Napster compromise? I realize that a lot of people are going to use Napster regardless, but for those of us (such as myself) who feel squeamish about using it in light of the recent controversy, there *is* a compromise: MP3.com. No, you can't get everything under the sun the way you do on Napster, but a lot of fine musicians (such as Emily Bezar, Veruca Salt, Alanis Morissette, Splashdown, Mary Lydia Ryan, etc.) have tracks there. For those of us with fast internet connections, they can even be streamed instead of downloaded. And best of all, the artists GET MONEY if enough people listen to their songs. If everyone on ecto went to Emily's MP3.com page and played her tracks a couple of times a week, it might even add up to something... (I see that Mary Lydia currently has $35.79 in earnings, which isn't exactly a ton of dough, but at least she's getting a little reward. Plus I'm sure that at least some of the folks who've listen to her MP3's wind up buying her CD. But unlike Napster, if I *didn't* want to buy her disc and still listened to the MP3 of "Devil With Wings" 10 times a day, I feel I would have the artist's permission to do so.) Instead of putting our favorite indie artists, such as Happy et al, on Napster, I suggest we approach them and ask them if they'd like to be on MP3.com. As I've mentioned here before, I've posted MP3.com pages for many of my friends who are talented musicians (at their request, of course). It's not difficult to do -- it probably took me about 60-90 minutes for each page, including making the MP3s themselves. I'd be happy to volunteer to do a few more for folks who don't have the computer equipment or technical know-how to do it themselves. Perhaps we could even have a page at the Ectophiles' Guide featuring links to ectophilic artists who have music available at MP3.com. This is a nice legal alternative, so let's use it. :) - --Sue Trowbridge trow@slip.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:26:03 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Napster compromise? On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 02:06:49PM -0700, Sue Trowbridge wrote: > Perhaps we could even have a page at the Ectophiles' Guide featuring > links to ectophilic artists who have music available at MP3.com. This is a > nice legal alternative, so let's use it. :) Reading your post, I was about to suggest this. I'd love to see this -- I'm daunted by the unsorted morass of stuff at mp3.com, and would appreciate a trusted guide to the good stuff. Starting with http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt of course :-) - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:03:57 -0700 From: Neile Graham Subject: Re: Napster anna maria "stj”rnell" wrote: >I'm more into listening to mp3s by artists I've never >heard than famous ones. >But of course many people do not funtcion this way.. >Anna Maria Anna Maria, I'm with you on this one. In the last few years I've bought many discs on the basis of downloaded mp3s (none via Napster) and over the years have bought a lot of discs from tape samples--but the problem is that most people don't work this way. As a writer who knows how much time, effort, and expense goes into producing a physical object that can be bought in stores, I would be mightily annoyed if people made my books available in their entirety on the web while they are still in print. It is simply not fair to my publishers who have fronted the money for the books to be published. Even if they're at the point where they are making a profit on my work (unlikely), receiving money over and above their costs allows them to publish the next book that might not sell as well or put money into more advertising or better distribution, or maybe even (heaven forfend) pay their staff. I work with small presses so this is a more visceral issue than the big name music industry, but not everyone is making big bucks off every artist, even the big labels. And I myself have put many samples up on my own site and have allowed them to be put up elsewhere. But I have also, when people have reposted my work on their own websites without asking me first, asked them remove it. - --Neile - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Neile Graham ...... http://www.sff.net/people/neile ....... neile@sff.net Les Semaines: A Weekly Journal . http://www.sff.net/people/neile/semaines The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music ....... http://www.smoe.org/ectoguide ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:23:59 -0700 From: Neile Graham Subject: Re: Napster compromise? >Perhaps we could even have a page at the Ectophiles' Guide featuring >links to ectophilic artists who have music available at MP3.com. This is a >nice legal alternative, so let's use it. :) This sounds _great_ to me, except I know I don't have time to put this together myself. Will anyone volunteer to be the compiler and updater of such a page? You wouldn't necessarily have to do coding--I think that Damon and or I could do that--I just don't have time to do the research for it and am guessing that Damon doesn't either. - --Neile - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Neile Graham ...... http://www.sff.net/people/neile ....... neile@sff.net Les Semaines: A Weekly Journal . http://www.sff.net/people/neile/semaines The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music ....... http://www.smoe.org/ectoguide ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:22:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Sue Trowbridge Subject: Re: Napster compromise? On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Neile Graham wrote: > >Perhaps we could even have a page at the Ectophiles' Guide featuring > >links to ectophilic artists who have music available at MP3.com. This is a > >nice legal alternative, so let's use it. :) > > This sounds _great_ to me, except I know I don't have time to put this > together myself. Will anyone volunteer to be the compiler and updater of > such a page? I would be happy to volunteer, since it was my idea ;) If you are an ectophile with music at MP3.com, or if you would like to recommend an ectophilic artist who has a page at the site, please e-mail me off-list. A descriptive line or two about *why* the artist is worth listening to would, of course, be most welcome! - --Sue Trowbridge trow@slip.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:44:07 -0600 (MDT) From: Neal Copperman Subject: Re: Napster compromise? On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Neile Graham wrote: > > >Perhaps we could even have a page at the Ectophiles' Guide featuring > >links to ectophilic artists who have music available at MP3.com. This is a > >nice legal alternative, so let's use it. :) > > This sounds _great_ to me, except I know I don't have time to put this > together myself. Will anyone volunteer to be the compiler and updater of > such a page? You wouldn't necessarily have to do coding--I think that > Damon and or I could do that--I just don't have time to do the research for > it and am guessing that Damon doesn't either. Of course, there is already a line in the guide template for places to go on the net relevant to the artist in question. Maybe it would be good practice to include an mp3.com link when one is available. (Updating all the pages seems a bit annoying though.) Most likely, the links to the artists own pages will link to mp3.com also, though that's a few extra steps to get there. neal np: aural gratificatoin volume 1 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 20:39:02 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Re: New Holly Cole Album Hi! Jeff mentioned: >The track listing is as follows--doesn't look like >Precious Heart made the album (damn--I was looking >forward to hearing her do that song) Would that be "Precious Heart" by Veda Hille? If so, I triply echo that "damn"! :/ +==========================================================================+ | Meredith Tarr meth@smoe.org | | New Haven, CT USA http://www.smoe.org/~meth | +==========================================================================+ | "things are more beautiful when they're obscure" -- veda hille | | *** TRAJECTORY, the Veda Hille mailing list: *** | | *** http://www.smoe.org/meth/trajectory.html *** | +==========================================================================+ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 21:16:33 -0400 From: meredith Subject: whatever happened to ... Hi! Okay, I think it's time to lighten the mood around here a little bit... Our cable company has a preview channel, where they try out channels they don't provide, presumably to see how they are received (though there is no way advertised to give feedback, and they never pick up any of the good ones anyway). It's been my one and only chance to check out channels like Bravo, MuchMusic USA, BBC America, and this week: VH1 Classic! I had no idea that one even existed. I've been amusing myself by having it on in the background this evening. They just showed the video for the very first 45 I ever bought: Juice Newton's "Queen Of Hearts". (I was 10, gimme a break!) I remember desperately wanting to see the video when I was a kid, but cable was only a dream where I grew up, and that wasn't exactly the sort of thing that showed up on Friday Night Videos, so I never did. God, what a silly waste of celluloid. :) But I found to my horror that I still know all the words!!! (This is similar to the epiphany I had driving from Rockford to O'Hare last Friday evening, when I discovered WXXY, "The 80's Channel" on the Chicago airwaves. (Valerie, don't you just want to move back to Chitown now? ;) They played Culture Club's "Miss Me Blind", and I could still sing along to the whole damned thing. It's sad, really.) Anyhoo, all that got me wondering ... Whatever happened to Juice Newton, anyway? If anyone here can answer that question, I will know once and for all that it is true: You can find the answer to ANYTHING on ecto. :) +==========================================================================+ | Meredith Tarr meth@smoe.org | | New Haven, CT USA http://www.smoe.org/~meth | +==========================================================================+ | "things are more beautiful when they're obscure" -- veda hille | | *** TRAJECTORY, the Veda Hille mailing list: *** | | *** http://www.smoe.org/meth/trajectory.html *** | +==========================================================================+ ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V6 #161 **************************