From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V5 #269 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Monday, August 9 1999 Volume 05 : Number 269 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Ani D's poetry [Neile Graham ] Today's your birthday, friend... [Mike Matthews ] Re: Ani Difranco recording a new album [Mark Miazga ] Re: Ani D's poetry [Neile Graham ] the dreaded desert island discs... [dave ] Re: Ani D's poetry [Songbird22@aol.com] Tim Curry [anna maria "stjärnell" ] Desert Island Music [Valerie Richardson ] Re: Ani D's poetry [James Gurley ] Re: Ani D's poetry/Suzanne Vega [bluedenim ] Top ten lists [Greg Jumper ] RE: Ani D's poetry ["Power, Marc (ETS - Equity Development Support)" ] Anja Garbarek ["Dirk Kastens" ] Re: songwriters on songwriters [Joseph Zitt ] RE: Ani D's poetry [James Gurley ] Re: Ani Difranco recording a new album [Greg Dunn ] Re: Ani D's poetry [Joseph Zitt ] Re: Desert Island Disks [Joseph Zitt ] Re: Ani D's poetry [Ted Jacobs ] Re: Ani D's poetry [James Gurley ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 23:53:57 -0700 From: Neile Graham Subject: Re: Ani D's poetry At 10:45 PM -0700 8/8/99, John Drummond wrote: >Y'all, > Well, I really doubt there'll be much room for >comparison between Ani's poetry and Jewel's... Ani's >understanding of words is far above and beyond Jewel's >understanding of words, in my opinion... [snip because you've all just read this...] Well, sure, but lyrics aren't poetry. I'll be interested to see if she actually can write poetry or just ends up with song lyrics that don't happen to have been set to music. I know there as wide a range in what people like in poetry as there is in what people like in music, but it really pisses me off how musical artists seem to think because they write song lyrics it's poetry. Usually it's naive statements about self-realization or politics or "wisdom" with line breaks. Anyway, maybe it's because you caught me on a cranky Sunday night or because my third collection of poetry--eight years' work--is now out in the world looking for a publisher, or maybe it's because I'm still pissed that Jewel (who once said I was a great poet and took my address to write to me about poetry then got too busy singing to write to anyone) got so much money for such a book of bad writing (she should have asked for my advice first, silly girl--I would have told her to work on it for another eight years at least) or maybe I'm an elitist, but I fear such books of "poetry". No wonder poetry isn't popular since this is what the average reader comes across in book stores. I feel like John did back when we were all talking about which pianists they thought were great. Which wordsmiths do I think are great? Well, there's not a songwriter among them, no matter how much I adore Veda's lyrics... - --Neile - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Neile Graham ...... http://www.sff.net/people/neile ....... neile@sff.net Les Semaines: A Weekly Journal . http://www.sff.net/people/neile/semaines The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music ....... http://www.smoe.org/ectoguide ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 03:00:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Mike Matthews Subject: Today's your birthday, friend... i*i*i*i*i*i i*i*i*i*i*i *************** *****HAPPY********* **************BIRTHDAY********* *************************************************** *************************************************************************** ********************* Happy Rhodes (no Email address) ********************* *************************************************************************** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Happy Rhodes Mon August 09 1965 HolyGhost Michael Stevens Sat August 12 1967 For Sale or Lease Vickie Mapes Wed August 15 1956 WretchAwry Martin Dougiamas Wed August 20 1969 Positive Tori Amos Thu August 22 1963 Leo Sam Warren Tue August 22 1961 Leo Henk Van Wulpen Sat August 22 1970 Leo Kerry White Wed August 22 1951 Exact Leo/Virgo Don Gibson Wed August 26 1959 Virgo Marcel Rijs Mon August 31 1970 A rose growing old Meredith Tarr Wed September 01 1971 Virgo Mary Lou Rowe Sat September 03 1960 Virgo Scott Zimmerman Mon September 04 1972 Virgo Mike Mendelson Fri September 04 1964 Virgo Richard Dean Wed September 06 1967 Virgo David Blank-Edelman Sat September 09 1967 Neon - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 03:11:19 -0400 From: Mark Miazga Subject: Re: Ani Difranco recording a new album Relax, Matthew, dead artists do it all the time. Jeff Buckley and Janis Joplin both released albums last year (both of them far superior to most of what living artists released, IMO). Jimi Hendrix, Patsy Cline, and Harry Chapin did it the year before. Besides, I'm sure his fans appreciate it. Apparently, there's already been a course taught at Berkely based on Tupac's poetry, so it's probably good there'll be a published book now for his fans to peruse. - --mm Mr Zebra wrote: > > upcoming poetry books by Tupac Shakur and another rapper). > > WTF?!?!??!??! I am SO tired of Tupac and his continuing releases since his > DEATH about 4 years ago. Where the hell is all this coming from?! > And yes, I'm sure some of you will yell at me about compassion for the man > or whatever, but he's been dead for years and continues to have albums, hit > singles, and a poetry book?!?! I don't think so. > Someone needs to be slapped. > > Matthew > > our love is like water > pinned down and abused for being strange > > ICQ# 298707 > mrzebra@fumblers.org > http://surf.to/gotsarah - got Sarah? > http://www.fumblers.org/SouthSideFumblas > > Current Obsession: > Cult of E Membership #138 FumbleMafia > FuCS/DA exfe96 a+++ Ifte lms/txus r++ ps+++ bs t-- C++ w++ > p1 LF+/*** N++ cd80+ pr+ g- S* x Fa m+ b!/- fc- E rl!@+++ s! - -- Mark Miazga e-mail: miazgama@pilot.msu.edu 143 West Akers Hall, MSU East Lansing, MI 48825 (517) 353-4936 http://www.msu.edu/~miazgama Program Coordinator of The Common Grounds Coffeehouse. Cheap Concerts every Thursday and Friday night in the basement of Akers Hall on the MSU campus. Schedule, booking, and mailing list info at: http://www.msu.edu/~cgrounds ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 03:22:25 -0400 From: Mark Miazga Subject: Re: Ani D's poetry > No wonder poetry isn't popular since this is what the average reader comes > across in book stores. Neile, don't you think that any it can be a good thing for the poetry genre if Jewel writes a best-selling book of it? I mean, if some teenage girl runs across "Ariel" on the way to "A Night Without Armor" and picks it up... couldn't it be good for poetry? Or, heck, even if a teenage girl starts writing poetry because she's inspired by Jewel's diary-like ramblings... could it be a good thing? I guess I always tried to look at the bright side of this type of thing. I mean, the Jewel book surely made a lot of people go into the poetry section for the first time. If they saw something else that caught their eye, or read about one of Jewel's influences, or something like that? I mean, if buying Jewel makes someone go by Louise Gluck's or Syvlia Plath's name and makes them take an interest, it can't be a bad thing, can it? On the same subject... I am really enjoying Suzanne Vega's "The Passionate Eye". It's kind of different, I guess, since it contains not that much poetry, but more journal entries, lyrics, and short stories. But I think she's an excellent writer. I've always found something very literate about her songwriting. Anyhow, Neile, good luck finding a publisher for your book! - --Mark - -- Mark Miazga e-mail: miazgama@pilot.msu.edu 143 West Akers Hall, MSU East Lansing, MI 48825 (517) 353-4936 http://www.msu.edu/~miazgama Program Coordinator of The Common Grounds Coffeehouse. Cheap Concerts every Thursday and Friday night in the basement of Akers Hall on the MSU campus. Schedule, booking, and mailing list info at: http://www.msu.edu/~cgrounds ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 02:13:05 -0700 From: Neile Graham Subject: Re: Ani D's poetry Sorry, folks, this is way off-topic. Delete at will. Mark Miazga wrote: >Neile, don't you think that any it can be a good thing for the poetry genre if >Jewel writes a best-selling book of it? I mean, if some teenage girl runs >across "Ariel" on the way to "A Night Without Armor" and picks it up... >couldn't it be good for poetry? Perhaps it might happen. I don't think it's very likely, though, and a teenage girl running across _Ariel_ because of Jewel's book would likely have found it anyway, at least if she were someone who was really going to be excited and interested in poetry. There are a lot of other more direct ways for kids to run across good poetry nowadays--lots of great poetry in schools and other public places. >Or, heck, even if a teenage girl starts >writing poetry because she's inspired by Jewel's diary-like ramblings... could >it be a good thing? It _could_ be, but it actually is more likely to be a frustrating experience, because unless you're Jewel there is no readership for diary-like ramblings--only mothers and close friends are interested in it. It gives an entirely unrealistic view of the writing world. >I guess I always tried to look at the bright side of this type of thing. I >mean, the Jewel book surely made a lot of people go into the poetry >section for >the first time. Actually, it was mostly for sale as a cd or tape in record stores. I'd love to find out comparative sales figures for the audio and printed versions of her book. I'd like to find out how many copies were actually sold out of those tiny poetry sections most bookstores have. And she really should have put out a good cd instead, and maybe in the liner notes make a big mention of one of Sylvia Plath's or Louise Gluck's books. That probably would have attracted more people into checking out their work. >Anyhow, Neile, good luck finding a publisher for your book! Thanks. I have high hopes for it, especially as my previous book was so well-received (at least as far as obscurely published poetry goes). It's just annoying when I think about how much of my life I've dedicated to writing (more years than some people reading ecto have been alive), working improving my own and other people's writing, to see people being accepted as writers just because they've put out popular music. Jewel's book wouldn't have had a chance in the poetry publishing world if not for her music sales. Speaking of which, I wonder when her biography is coming out? The amount she was paid for it (and her age at the time) was mentioned in today's _Seattle Times_ as one of the 100 worst moments in 20th-century culture. I can't imagine Jewel's pleased to be such a laughing stock--unless she really only does care about the money, and she didn't strike me as that shallow when I met and talked to her way back in the dark ages before gold records. Unless that has changed her a lot--it can't help but have changed her some. - --Neile - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Neile Graham ...... http://www.sff.net/people/neile ....... neile@sff.net Les Semaines: A Weekly Journal . http://www.sff.net/people/neile/semaines The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music ....... http://www.smoe.org/ectoguide ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 05:33:42 -0400 From: dave Subject: the dreaded desert island discs... Well, since this bounced last time I sent it, I get to add a bit to it, so I'll say congrats to Brian and Mindy on the birth of their little girl! now on to the island stuff... Hmm... how about 5 Jimmy Buffett, and 5 Peter Allen CDs? okay, you asked for it.. here's my current 10 CDs, in no particular order.... Kasia Kowalska - Pelna Obaw Kasia Kowalska - Koncert Inaczej 10,000 Maniac - In My Tribe Cowboy Junkies - The Caution Horses Caedmon's Call - My Calm // Your Storm Grey Eye Glances - Eventide Maria McKee - Maria McKee Jaci Velasquez - Jaci Velasquez Cindy Morgan - The Loving Kind Rich Mullins - Songs and 10 songs.. Clannad - Coinleach Ghlas An Fhomair Kasia Kowalska - Kto Moze To Dac Jaci Velasquez - On my Knees Edyta Gorniak - One & One Kasia Stankiewicz - Najlepszy z Dobrych Avalon - Can't Live a Day Happy Rhodes - Feed the Fire (acoustic version) Grey Eye Glances - More to This Sixteen - Obudz We Mnie Wenus Julita & Paula - Adagio Okay, can I pick like.. 100 more? - -- +-----------------------------------------------+ + dave + + Visit Sideshow Bob's House of Wax and Waffles + + Female vocalists, Christian, and Polish music + + -=-=- and the fabulous Kasia Kowalska -=-=- + + http://magpage.com/~sspan/ + +-----------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 06:09:04 EDT From: Songbird22@aol.com Subject: Re: Ani D's poetry John writes: > Well, I really doubt there'll be much room for > comparison between Ani's poetry and Jewel's... Ani's I actually didn't mean to say "comparisons"... I just meant, maybe, references to Jewel or whatever... As far as I'm concerned Ani and Jewel's writings are worlds apart, and I find Ani's lyrics brilliantly crafted and incredibly insightful... jessica www.aquezada.com/jess ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 04:21:47 -0700 (PDT) From: anna maria "stjärnell" Subject: Tim Curry hi.. : "Kevin D. F. Highnight" wrote.. any idea where I can get any of Tim Curry's stuff on CD?!?!? I have been trying to track down a copy of his Best of on CD, but can't find one. I'd even settle for a CD-R! Can anyone help me?!?! Fraid not..But am also a Curry fan and have been looking for his stuff on cd. Nice to know I'm not the only one..Rocky Horror rules. Anna Maria np-Mole Session-Late Show _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 08:46:10 -0400 From: Valerie Richardson Subject: Desert Island Music I think I'm going to do a "desert island" radio show this week. Hee hee. It's always a fun topic. 1. Joni Mitchell - Hejira 2. Richard & Linda Thompson - Shoot Out the Lights 3. Happy Rhodes - Warpaint 4. Veda Hille - Spine 5. Kate & Anna McGarrigle - French Album 6. Katell Keineg - O Seasons, O Castles 7. Lui Collins - Baptism of Fire (my favorite "tough times" CD) 8. Bob Marley - Best Of 9. Bob Dylan - Blood on the Tracks 10. Beatles - White Album I could never even begin to put together 10 favorite songs... - --Valerie Richardson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 07:00:22 -0700 (PDT) From: James Gurley Subject: Re: Ani D's poetry All this talk of Jewel and Ani reminded me of the "attempt" way way way back in the early 70s and late 60s to consider rock lyrics as poetry, esp. the lyrics of Joni Mitchell and Crosby, Stills and Nash. Hell there were even books of this stuff published and used in high schools. Most of it, divorced from the music, falls flat. With the possible exception of Joni Mitchell's Hejira, most of it just doesn't stand up. And I know it's unfair to make the jump from their lyrics to books of poetry by Jewel and Ani, but I don't believe pop songwriters should push themselves as poets. Anyone remember Rod McKuen? Anyone remember the rock band fronted by Anne Sexton? About the only successful poet/rock lyricists I knoww of is Leonard Cohen, and maybe Jim Caroll, but both were poets first. Serious poetry--and not just high-school quality diary ramblings--is a difficult business. I agree with Neile; I'd rather have people like Ani and Jewel promoting poets like Louis Gluck, Sylvia Plath, or Sexton, those women poets whose work deserves to reach a wider audience. Anyway, that's just my two cents. Sorry about the rant. - --Jim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 07:08:48 -0700 (PDT) From: bluedenim Subject: Re: Ani D's poetry/Suzanne Vega I bought Jewel's poetry book, I was a little disappointed but I have to say that I agree with Mark saying that it probably did inspire many people to pick up their pens and starts writing, which is a healthy thing for a lot of people...plus it garnered interest in the poetry genre like never before. I also got Suzanne Vega's book which I think is SO great, yeah it is mostly short stories and stuff but I find it very interesting, she is a very good writer. And now that Ani is planning to release a book I'm a very curious to see how it turns out too. -Eric - --- Mark Miazga wrote: > > No wonder poetry isn't popular since this is what > the average reader comes > > across in book stores. > > Neile, don't you think that any it can be a good > thing for the poetry genre if > Jewel writes a best-selling book of it? I mean, if > some teenage girl runs > across "Ariel" on the way to "A Night Without Armor" > and picks it up... > couldn't it be good for poetry? Or, heck, even if a > teenage girl starts > writing poetry because she's inspired by Jewel's > diary-like ramblings... could > it be a good thing? > > I guess I always tried to look at the bright side of > this type of thing. I > mean, the Jewel book surely made a lot of people go > into the poetry section for > the first time. If they saw something else that > caught their eye, or read > about one of Jewel's influences, or something like > that? I mean, if buying > Jewel makes someone go by Louise Gluck's or Syvlia > Plath's name and makes them > take an interest, it can't be a bad thing, can it? > > On the same subject... I am really enjoying Suzanne > Vega's "The Passionate > Eye". It's kind of different, I guess, since it > contains not that much poetry, > but more journal entries, lyrics, and short stories. > But I think she's an > excellent writer. I've always found something very > literate about her > songwriting. > > Anyhow, Neile, good luck finding a publisher for > your book! > > --Mark > > > -- > Mark Miazga e-mail: miazgama@pilot.msu.edu > 143 West Akers Hall, MSU East Lansing, MI 48825 > (517) 353-4936 http://www.msu.edu/~miazgama > > Program Coordinator of The Common Grounds > Coffeehouse. Cheap Concerts every > Thursday and Friday night in the basement of Akers > Hall on the MSU campus. > Schedule, booking, and mailing list info at: > http://www.msu.edu/~cgrounds > > > === "Give me a break...Ooh, let me try! Give me something to show For my miserable life! Give me something to take! Would you break even my wings, Like a swallow?" -Kate Bush _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 07:54:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Jumper Subject: Top ten lists I've never done one of these lists before, so I thought it would be fun to see what I'd end up with. To make things more interesting, I limited myself to one work per artist per list. I chose the songs without regard to those on the albums, as I wanted to see what I'd pick independently; the songs were harder, as even restricting myself to ones I'll pull out to listen to just by themselves left me with far more than ten to whittle down. I ended up going with more traditional songs, eliminating instrumentals and longer "works"; I didn't consider classical pieces for either list. The first few items are in some kind of order; after that, it was too hard to rank things, so they're in the order they were in when I got tired of rearranging them. :) Albums: 1) Genesis - Selling England By The Pound 2) Kate Bush - Hounds of Love (or The Dreaming or The Kick Inside) 3) Peter Hammill - The Love Songs 4) Kristin Hersh - Strange Angels 5) Happy Rhodes - Rearmament 6) Sarah McLachlan - Solace (or Touch) 7) Marc Cohn - Marc Cohn (or The Rainy Season) 8) The English Beat - Special Beat Service 9) Marillion - Afraid of Sunlight 10) Latitude - Latitude Songs: 1) Kate Bush - The Man With The Child In His Eyes 2) Peter Hammill - Vision 3) Genesis - Undertow 4) Cyndi Lauper - Time After Time 5) Anthony Phillips - God If I Saw Her Now 6) Marc Cohn - True Companion 7) Led Zeppelin - Battle Of Evermore 8) Sarah McLachlan - Mercy 9) Fleetwood Mac - Landslide 10) Talk Talk - Give It Up That was fun! Greg np: My Bloody Valentine - Isn't Anything nr: Barton and Capobianco - Alpha Centauri (at maybe a page per day...) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 11:02:55 -0400 From: "Power, Marc (ETS - Equity Development Support)" Subject: RE: Ani D's poetry Might I propose Howard Devoto (Buzzcocks, Magazine, Luxuria) in the singer/songwriter & excellent poet category. There was a book of his collected words - anyone recollect? Bob Calvert (Hawkwind) was a poet first and singer/songwriter second, his poetry won a great many awards and much critical acclaim. Cheers! Marc. - -----Original Message----- From: James Gurley [mailto:jmg@serv.net] Sent: Monday, August 09, 1999 10:00 AM To: ecto@smoe.org Subject: Re: Ani D's poetry All this talk of Jewel and Ani reminded me of the "attempt" way way way back in the early 70s and late 60s to consider rock lyrics as poetry, esp. the lyrics of Joni Mitchell and Crosby, Stills and Nash. Hell there were even books of this stuff published and used in high schools. Most of it, divorced from the music, falls flat. With the possible exception of Joni Mitchell's Hejira, most of it just doesn't stand up. And I know it's unfair to make the jump from their lyrics to books of poetry by Jewel and Ani, but I don't believe pop songwriters should push themselves as poets. Anyone remember Rod McKuen? Anyone remember the rock band fronted by Anne Sexton? About the only successful poet/rock lyricists I knoww of is Leonard Cohen, and maybe Jim Caroll, but both were poets first. Serious poetry--and not just high-school quality diary ramblings--is a difficult business. I agree with Neile; I'd rather have people like Ani and Jewel promoting poets like Louis Gluck, Sylvia Plath, or Sexton, those women poets whose work deserves to reach a wider audience. Anyway, that's just my two cents. Sorry about the rant. - --Jim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 17:24:33 +0200 From: "Dirk Kastens" Subject: Re: Ani D's poetry Hi, > Speaking of which, I wonder when her biography is coming out? The amount > she was paid for it (and her age at the time) was mentioned in today's > _Seattle Times_ as one of the 100 worst moments in 20th-century culture. I saw a portrait about Jewel on MTV yesterday. It was quite interesting. After she graduated in 1992 she had no home and no money and she was living on the streets, started collecting money with playing guitar and singing, worked in a bar where she was engaged for playing once a week. She's one of the from-dishwasher-to-millionaire-girls. And she was writing poems before she started playing guitar. Dirk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 17:07:52 +0200 From: "Dirk Kastens" Subject: Anja Garbarek Hi, I just got the debut album of Anja Garbarek, the daughter of Jan Garbarek. Her music has nothing in common with her daddy's. Balloon Mood is a very disturbing album with weird soundscapes, mystic rhythms, and strange vocal effects. It's not possible to categorize the album. It can partly be compared with Kym Brown, PJ Harvey, Bjoerk, Happy (MWABT, Equipoise), KaTe (Dreaming), and Massive Attack. The music is pure electronic, programmed by Marius de Vries (producer) and Anja Garbarek. After the first listen I was kind of paralized and I'm sure that I can listen to it a hundred times without ever getting bored. The new Sophie B. Hawkins album is great, BTW, by far the best of her three albums. np: Kondo, Bernocchi, Laswell - Charged ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 15:16:28 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: songwriters on songwriters On Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 11:37:44PM -0800, Russ Lewis wrote: > How could I have forgotten these? > > * Jimmy Webb/The Association -- "P.F. Sloan" > * The Young Fresh Fellows -- "Amy Grant" And, for that matter: Mojo Nixon: "Debbie Gibson Is Pregnant With My Two Headed Love Child" - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Shekhinah: The Presence http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 08:29:24 -0700 (PDT) From: James Gurley Subject: RE: Ani D's poetry Hmmm. I can't speak for Bob Calvert--I looked up some of his stuff and it seems more performance pieces to me, but that's always a judgement call. I forgot Patti Smith though. How could I? Jeez. But even here I much prefer her songs to her verse. Even Bob Dylan published books of his "lyrics" and ramblings. I guess my personal take is that the poems that affect me most aren't those by poet/songwriters, but by more traditional poets. And that's probably my elitist/academic tendencies. I'm with Neile; no matter how much I like the lyrics of Veda Hille, Joni Mitchell, Jane Siberry, or Patti Smith or Leonard Cohen, I wouldn't call them great poets, even if they publish books of their works. On Mon, 9 Aug 1999, Power, Marc (ETS - Equity Development Support) wrote: > Might I propose Howard Devoto (Buzzcocks, Magazine, Luxuria) in the > singer/songwriter & excellent poet category. There was a book of his > collected words - anyone recollect? > > Bob Calvert (Hawkwind) was a poet first and singer/songwriter second, > his poetry won a great many awards and much critical acclaim. > > Cheers! > > Marc. > > -----Original Message----- > From: James Gurley [mailto:jmg@serv.net] > Sent: Monday, August 09, 1999 10:00 AM > To: ecto@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Ani D's poetry > > > All this talk of Jewel and Ani reminded me of the "attempt" way way way > back in the early 70s and late 60s to consider rock lyrics as poetry, esp. > the lyrics of Joni Mitchell and Crosby, Stills and Nash. Hell there were > even books of this stuff published and used in high schools. Most of it, > divorced from the music, falls flat. With the possible exception of Joni > Mitchell's Hejira, most of it just doesn't stand up. And I know it's > unfair to make the jump from their lyrics to books of poetry by Jewel and > Ani, but I don't believe pop songwriters should push themselves as poets. > Anyone remember Rod McKuen? Anyone remember the rock band fronted by Anne > Sexton? About the only successful poet/rock lyricists I knoww of is > Leonard Cohen, and maybe Jim Caroll, but both were poets first. Serious > poetry--and not just high-school quality diary ramblings--is a difficult > business. I agree with Neile; I'd rather have people like Ani and Jewel > promoting poets like Louis Gluck, Sylvia Plath, or Sexton, those women > poets whose work deserves to reach a wider audience. > > Anyway, that's just my two cents. Sorry about the rant. > > --Jim > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:39:45 -0500 (EST) From: Greg Dunn Subject: Re: Ani Difranco recording a new album "Mark Miazga said:" > > My problem is that Jewel should have been recording a stunning followup to > "Pieces of You" instead of releasing and promoting a mediocre book of poetry. > Instead, she waited another couple years and released the horrid "Spirit". I Sadly, she WAS recording a stunning followup, but after Atlantic convinced her to let PoY ride a while longer and generate more singles + revenues, she lost interest in it and moved on. Having heard many of the candidates for this lost album at live shows, I think it's a real shame that she discarded some of her finest music ever -- in favor of Spirit, a watered-down mix of misproduced older tunes and hurriedly composed new ones. :-( Thank goodness for b**tleg live tapes. :-) Interestingly, I heard a fair amount of her poetry, read live, and much of it was quite good. The poetry book and CD contain altered and/or truncated versions of some otherwise good poems, unfortunately. I agree that she didn't let it "cook" long enough before releasing it, but then I don't think she intended it to be world-wise, deep musings. It was intended to be a snapshot of where she was at the time the poetry was written -- a growing teenager. The wisdom of that choice is, of course, subject to criticism as well. :-) As for introducing fans to other poetry, I suspect the dedication to Pablo Neruda in PoY probably did more good than her book's promotion.. but then, my daughter was able to find Sylvia Plath without anyone's help, so I may be biased... :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 16:00:27 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Ani D's poetry On Sun, Aug 08, 1999 at 11:53:57PM -0700, Neile Graham wrote: > Well, sure, but lyrics aren't poetry. I would disagree with this. While lyrics aren't necessarily *good* poetry, I think they are poetry nonetheless, just in a tightly defined form. OTOH, I may be operating from a much wider definition of poetry than many. > I know there as wide a range in what people like in poetry as there is in > what people like in music, but it really pisses me off how musical artists > seem to think because they write song lyrics it's poetry. Usually it's > naive statements about self-realization or politics or "wisdom" with line > breaks. The spewing of platitudes in lines that don't word-wrap is a common ailment, not limited to musicians :-). > Anyway, maybe it's because you caught me on a cranky Sunday night or > because my third collection of poetry--eight years' work--is now out in the > world looking for a publisher, From the war stories I've been hearing from writers dealing with publishers nowadays, getting anything at all published seems to be harrowing. As I understand it, the world of commercial publishing is, if anything, more daunting than that of major-label recording. No one wants to publish anything unless it is already guaranteed to be a best-seller, which generally seems to involve some sort of tie-in to non-print media. A friend of mine just got dumped by a major publisher after working with them for several years. A novel of his that had been handled steadily by an editor over the past year or so got dumped when the editor switched publishers (though she was barred from bringing his work to the new publisher with her). The new editor insisted that it was unpublishable as it stood, and, for one thing, he had to change the protagonist from female to male. And poetry is the worst case, publishingwise, of all, since publishers are convinced that it has no market at all and won't work to build one. > No wonder poetry isn't popular since this is what the average reader comes > across in book stores. As Mark (?) had said, the Jewel book is bringing some new readers to poetry, much as rap has brought people in. Not a lot, but they are people who may not have noticed the poetry shelves otherwise. > I feel like John did back when we were all talking about which pianists > they thought were great. Which wordsmiths do I think are great? Well, > there's not a songwriter among them, no matter how much I adore Veda's > lyrics... Hmmm... the only one I can think of that might qualify is Leonard Cohen. - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Shekhinah: The Presence http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 16:08:28 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Desert Island Disks On Sat, Aug 07, 1999 at 08:31:13PM -0400, Zoetrope wrote: > 5. We Want Miles, Miles Davis This woulda been on my list had I not already chosen "Pangaea". (Now I have the bass line from the "We Want Miles" version of "My Man's Gone Now" stuck in my head...) - -- | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Shekhinah: The Presence http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 12:29:33 -0400 From: Ted Jacobs Subject: Re: Ani D's poetry "Power, Marc (ETS - Equity Development Support)" wrote: ... I was just writing a similar rant to this thread when you beat me to it, so I will build on your reply. I was an active poet for a few years, but I became less and less inspired to be one as I noticed the commercial elements that were creeping into the culture. I do not appreciate events such as "Poetry Slams" where poetry is bandied about in a tractor pull atmosphere, distributed by a bunch of trendy Brownstone Boys impersonators, and consumed by a gaggle of latte sipping flannel clad interlopers from the homeless-chic set who are more concerned that they are in the most chic place at the most chic time. This is poetry for tourists. IMHO poetry, just as all other media, becomes perverse when it is driven by the bottom line. A pop star writing a book full of random free associations will bring more people into the fold, for awhile, but the long term effect will be even more commercialization and homogenized poetry, rubber stamped by control study groups. The approval of Jewel and Ani Defranco, by control group driven marketers governing the music industry, is the reason they are popular at all. Ani and Jewel are good but not on the fringe (Jim Carrol or Laurie Anderson come to mind as examples of "fringe"). IMHO the fringe is the place to be, and I don't want the control group mentality to creep into literature the way it has into the other media. Of course it is already happening (okay a little denial going on here, it has been happening slowly for years and years, and it is going on because Philip Morris knows that once they control the vocabulary, they will control the argument), but I wish it were met with some resistance, and so far it has not been met with much. btw- the worst moments in television that I remember as a boy invariably involved singers who couldn't act acting or actors who couldn't sing singing. Sebastion Cabbot "Narrating" the song "Like a Rolling Stone" comes to mind. What is it in a star's ego that blinds them to the fact that they have ONE gift (okay possibly 2 or 3 but not often in history), and that's it? Sorry for the 3 separate rants... Well no, no really, it felt pretty good to rant on this topic. - -ted > > All this talk of Jewel and Ani reminded me of the "attempt" way way way > back in the early 70s and late 60s to consider rock lyrics as poetry, esp. > the lyrics of Joni Mitchell and Crosby, Stills and Nash. Hell there were > even books of this stuff published and used in high schools. Most of it, > divorced from the music, falls flat. With the possible exception of Joni > Mitchell's Hejira, most of it just doesn't stand up. And I know it's > unfair to make the jump from their lyrics to books of poetry by Jewel and > Ani, but I don't believe pop songwriters should push themselves as poets. > Anyone remember Rod McKuen? Anyone remember the rock band fronted by Anne > Sexton? About the only successful poet/rock lyricists I knoww of is > Leonard Cohen, and maybe Jim Caroll, but both were poets first. Serious > poetry--and not just high-school quality diary ramblings--is a difficult > business. I agree with Neile; I'd rather have people like Ani and Jewel > promoting poets like Louis Gluck, Sylvia Plath, or Sexton, those women > poets whose work deserves to reach a wider audience. > > Anyway, that's just my two cents. Sorry about the rant. > > --Jim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:06:35 -0700 (PDT) From: James Gurley Subject: Re: Ani D's poetry You've brought up a good point, i.e. that there's a distinction to be made between spoken-word or SLAM poetry and more traditionally written poetry. I'm not saying that they are mutually exclusive, but there tends to be certain "camps," as with everything else in life; and the people who like more populist forms of slam-stuff aren't going to be the ones who care much for poets like Rita Dove, or John Ashberry or Jorie Graham, etc. I would put stuff published by singer/songwriters in the more populist (slam) arena. They don't necessarily help "inspire" others to discover the "traditional" stuff as much as they create a niche for the kind of things they perform/write. On Mon, 9 Aug 1999, Ted Jacobs wrote: > > "Power, Marc (ETS - Equity Development Support)" wrote: > ... > > I was just writing a similar rant to this thread when you beat me to > it, so I will build on your reply. I was an active poet for a few years, > but I became less and less inspired to be one as I noticed the > commercial elements that were creeping into the culture. I do not > appreciate events such as "Poetry Slams" where poetry is bandied about > in a tractor pull atmosphere, distributed by a bunch of trendy > Brownstone Boys impersonators, and consumed by a gaggle of latte sipping > flannel clad interlopers from the homeless-chic set who are more > concerned that they are in the most chic place at the most chic time. > This is poetry for tourists. IMHO poetry, just as all other media, > becomes perverse when it is driven by the bottom line. A pop star > writing a book full of random free associations will bring more people > into the fold, for awhile, but the long term effect will be even more > commercialization and homogenized poetry, rubber stamped by control > study groups. The approval of Jewel and Ani Defranco, by control group > driven marketers governing the music industry, is the reason they are > popular at all. Ani and Jewel are good but not on the fringe (Jim Carrol > or Laurie Anderson come to mind as examples of "fringe"). IMHO the > fringe is the place to be, and I don't want the control group mentality > to creep into literature the way it has into the other media. Of course > it is already happening (okay a little denial going on here, it has been > happening slowly for years and years, and it is going on because Philip > Morris knows that once they control the vocabulary, they will control > the argument), but I wish it were met with some resistance, and so far > it has not been met with much. > > btw- the worst moments in television that I remember as a boy invariably > involved singers who couldn't act acting or actors who couldn't sing > singing. Sebastion Cabbot "Narrating" the song "Like a Rolling Stone" > comes to mind. > What is it in a star's ego that blinds them to the fact that they have > ONE gift (okay possibly 2 or 3 but not often in history), and that's it? > > Sorry for the 3 separate rants... Well no, no really, it felt pretty > good to rant on this topic. > -ted > > > > > > All this talk of Jewel and Ani reminded me of the "attempt" way way way > > back in the early 70s and late 60s to consider rock lyrics as poetry, esp. > > the lyrics of Joni Mitchell and Crosby, Stills and Nash. Hell there were > > even books of this stuff published and used in high schools. Most of it, > > divorced from the music, falls flat. With the possible exception of Joni > > Mitchell's Hejira, most of it just doesn't stand up. And I know it's > > unfair to make the jump from their lyrics to books of poetry by Jewel and > > Ani, but I don't believe pop songwriters should push themselves as poets. > > Anyone remember Rod McKuen? Anyone remember the rock band fronted by Anne > > Sexton? About the only successful poet/rock lyricists I knoww of is > > Leonard Cohen, and maybe Jim Caroll, but both were poets first. Serious > > poetry--and not just high-school quality diary ramblings--is a difficult > > business. I agree with Neile; I'd rather have people like Ani and Jewel > > promoting poets like Louis Gluck, Sylvia Plath, or Sexton, those women > > poets whose work deserves to reach a wider audience. > > > > Anyway, that's just my two cents. Sorry about the rant. > > > > --Jim > ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V5 #269 **************************