From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V5 #57 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Tuesday, February 16 1999 Volume 05 : Number 057 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Comments on several subjects [Bill Mazur ] Re: Guitarists [jfrancis@villagenet.com] veda in the northeast [meredith ] Re: Guitarists [Greg Dunn ] Re: Guitarists [FAMarcus@aol.com] Re: 20/20 on tori [Bill Mazur ] Re: IQ's Ever/Guitarists [Bill Mazur ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:34:52 -0800 From: Bill Mazur Subject: Comments on several subjects Hello Everyone, WARNING: This will be a long one. My stream of consciousness is kicking into high gear. I just wanted to make some comments on the favorite guitarists/bass players threads. I also have some comments on my Ecto experience to this point in time. When I first wrote responses to Tim on his question about "Ever" by IQ, I casually mentioned a handful of guitarists that have had the most direct impact of my playing. Those specific guitarists that I sighted all play with honesty and emotion. I tend to come from the "wailing and weeping" school of lead guitar playing. I also really like textural electric and acoustic playing. Tim was talking about his affinity towards Mark Kelly's emotive keyboard playing and his preference for emotive playing versus brilliant technique. This was what prompted me to make the comments I did on my preference for emotive playing as well. I was using those guitarists as examples of emotive players that also have technical prowess. I think that this thread has been fascinating because everyone has mentioned so many wonderful and amazing guitarists, both female and male. All of the guitarists mentioned have their own unique voice. They all play with honest emotion and yet also possess a good deal of technical skill. They use their skill in a positive way to enhance and effectively deliver their message through their music. None of the musicians mentioned are the "weedly-wee, flavor-of-the-month" types that Lisa talked about. IMHO, the guitar is one of the most versatile and expressive instruments that one could play. Piano or keyboards would be, to my mind, the other instrument that allows that much diversity of expression. There are so many different variations on the theme with guitars (steel string acoustic 6 & 12, classical nylon, electric 6 & 12 string, myriad effects processing) that allow for so many types of musical expression. There are a myriad of great guitarist out there with unique and individual styles. I am not the most patient person and never really had the discipline to learn or master any one style of playing (i.e. classical, jazz, blues). I also am someone that needs a good deal of variety in my life. Music is no exception. That is why I need and love so many different types of music. I therefore have absorbed a little bit here and a little bit there of many styles of guitar playing. That is one reason why I can relate to and appreciate all of the guitarists that everyone has mentioned. I think I have, via osmosis, learned a bit from every guitarist and, for that matter, every musician that I have ever had the pleasure to have heard. I feel very lucky to be alive now, because when else in the known history of this planet would one have been able to be exposed to so much incredible music? I love Ecto so much because it seems that every one here is open to musical discussion that covers a lot of ground. Everyone seems to allow for other's opinions, even if they don't like a particular artist or type of music. Since joining Ecto, I have already been turned on to some great new music in areas that I am not that familiar. I will continue to comment on music that I know the best, which is primarily progressive rock. Hopefully I am bringing some useful commentary that the group enjoys hearing. However, I want to make it clear to everyone that I am not interested in just promoting a progressive rock agenda. I am anxious to continue to learn about artists, especially female artists, from all genres of music. I am very pleased to listen and learn from all of you out there. Also, any and all Happy talk is of great interest to me! Thanks for listening and for having me on this mailing list. It has been a very enjoyable experience for me to be here on Ecto! All the best to each and every one of you! Bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:52:17 -0500 From: jfrancis@villagenet.com Subject: Re: Guitarists Burl Ives John Foggerty John Foggerty's brother (deceased) Bob Dylan "Lonesome" George Gobel Jane Wiedlin Susanna Hoffs Richie Cunningham(opie) The time when Kelly Bundy went to Hollywood to tape her own TV show, the chick who played the guitar in the shows' band.......yeah... her. Steve Miller ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:49:49 -0500 From: meredith Subject: veda in the northeast Hi! If any New England-area ectophiles (who aren't already on the trajectory list) are planning to see Veda Hille at her upcoming Trinity College show on 3/5, you'll want to e-mail the organizer of the event to let her know you're coming. E-me and I'll send you her e-dress. I'll be at that show, and also at the Iron Horse gig the next night, so if you're going to either show let me know and we can make it an ectogather. :) +==========================================================================+ | Meredith Tarr meth@smoe.org | | New Haven, CT USA http://www.smoe.org/~meth | +==========================================================================+ | "things are more beautiful when they're obscure" -- veda hille | | *** TRAJECTORY, the Veda Hille mailing list: *** | | *** http://www.smoe.org/meth/trajectory.html *** | +==========================================================================+ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 23:22:52 -0500 From: Greg Dunn Subject: Re: Guitarists >-- Ani DiFranco >-- Kristen Hersh >-- Susan Werner >-- Christine Lavin >-- Pamela Means >-- Joni Mitchell >-- Janis Ian >-- Bonnie Raitt > >I guess it's telling that this thread has rattled off screens upon screens >of great male guitarists, but i just had to rack my brains for ten minutes >and ask woj's help to come up with just these 9 names. Can anyone else add >to the list? Gotta say Carrie Newcomer; she taught guitar to make ends meet during her less successful days. That lady has an amazing command of alternate tunings, finger picking, and percussive accompaniment (tapping or slapping the guitar while playing -- a hallmark of such genius players as Michael Hedges). Mostly it gets drowned by the band, but on her solo shows you can watch and be amazed. :-) Shawn Colvin impressed me quite a bit when we used to see her play solo in between Grammys. :-) She has extremely strong forearm and wrist muscles, as confirmed by a handshake; doubtless from playing all those s-t-r-e-t-c-h hand positions... Nancy Wilson -- I saw Heart on their first US tour (opening for BTO; shudder) and they depended a lot more on her for guitar accompaniment and solos at that time. She could rock, and she could pick. I will also defend Jewel, even though you rarely see her play anything challenging these days. Twice when I saw her live I was blown away not only by the technical accomplishment on certain songs, but also by her innate sense of tone and interval. Not flashy, but powerful. On bass, I'll have to vote for Sara Lee and the venerable Carol Kaye; neither of them spring chickens, but both in command of their instruments. If she keeps practicing, I may someday have to add my daughter's name to the list; for only 2 years of playing, she's quite competent. :-) And just to add to the other thread for a moment: Michael Manring is one of the most awesome bassists I've ever seen live. He used to tour with Michael Hedges -- a match if ever there was one -- and often performed a number where (for comic relief) he would play three basses simultaneously and generate a melody rather than the random noise you would expect... - -- | Greg Dunn | "god money's not looking for the | | gregdunn@indy.net | cure. god money's not concerned | | GregDunn@aol.com | with the sick among the pure." | | http://www.indy.net/~gregdunn/ | Trent Reznor | ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 00:04:39 EST From: FAMarcus@aol.com Subject: Re: Guitarists In a message dated 2/15/99 10:44:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, jfrancis@villagenet.com writes: << The time when Kelly Bundy went to Hollywood to tape her own TV show, the chick who played the guitar in the shows' band.......yeah... her. Steve Miller >> the lead guitarist for the ARCHIE'S still gives me chills.......and how come when anybody speaks about goddesses that no one mentions Mrs.COWSILL ?????? with love.....danny bonaducci ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:15:28 -0800 From: Bill Mazur Subject: Re: 20/20 on tori FAMarcus@aol.com wrote: > > After seeing the segment on Tori a few minutes ago I want to thank whomever it > was that alerted us that it was coming on tonight. It is probably the best > piece I've see about her and one of the more emotional segments I've ever seen > on 20/20. Anyone in central and western times zones should not miss this. I > know I'll be watching it again. > thanks again............fred Yes, thank you! This was a heart wrenching and yet very hopeful segment. It must have taken an incredible amount of courage for Tori to write a piece of music that is so raw and honest and expresses the horror of such an odious crime. A dear friend of mine, that is a rape survivor, said that the feelings expressed in "Me And A Gun" are probably universal feelings of anyone (female or male, adult or child) that has had to suffer this indignity. It is truly wonderful that something very good has come out of Tori's experience and her courage to talk about it. The efforts of RAINN are really helping to heal the wounds of so many others that have had to endure this horrible crime. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:41:00 -0800 From: Bill Mazur Subject: Re: IQ's Ever/Guitarists Tim, Please see my comments below: Tim Finney wrote: > Okay, since this guitarist thread's come up, I'll quickly go through my > favourites before cutting to the main message. As you can see I'm not so > much into the "classic" guitarists mode. > > Favourite Guitarists: > > Marty Wilson Piper/Peter Koppes (The Church) - See my ramble below. (Example > song: Reptile) I just recently bought "Starfish". This is a CD that I have wanted for a long time and just never got around to buying until recently. The Church are a wonderful band. > Steve Rothery (Marillion) - He writes guitar lines like Russian epics > (Example song: Easter) That is a beautiful description! Rothery's solo on Easter is amazing. His solo on "Dry Land" is another one of my favorites. > Kevin Shields (My Bloody Valentine) - A genius who reinvented the guitar as > we know it! Who could *not* list him? (Example song: Soon) I'm not familiar with Kevin or this band. Please tell me more. > Reg Smithies (The Chameleons) - Somewhere between punk and shoegazer, some > of the most wonderful riffs ever were made by this guy. (Example song: Swamp > Thing) Again, unfamiliar. > Daniel Swayles (Kitchens Of Distinction) - My new favourite. Basically the > best person ever at echoey-achey soundscapes in the realm of pop. (Example > song: Third Time We Opened The Capsule) I have seen mention of them here on Ecto (possibly by you). Again, please tell me more. > Ani DiFranco - No-one plays with so much raw power IMHO. (Example song: > Light Of Some Kind) I must say that I don't care too much for Ani DiFranco as a performer. However, I do agree with what you said about her playing. She is a very interesting guitarist and singer. Her frenetic style just makes it hard for me to get into her. I watched her performance on "Hard Rock Live" on VH1. For some reason, it made me nervous to watch and listen to her. I read a line from a critic that said something like "Ani DiFranco's singing and playing is like guerilla warfare". I believe that it was meant to be a positive comment. I can sort of see where that critic was coming from with that comment. I haven't been exposed to enough of Ani's music to make a firm or final judgement. > Johnny Marr (The Smiths) - Because melody is always underrated in these > lists (Example song: This Charming Man) How could I forget Johnny Marr!?! Yes, I love his playing! > Happy Rhodes - Just listen to The Keep again. (Example Song: Temporary And > Eternal) I'm sure that you have seen my comments on Happy and "The Keep" in another post that I sent to the group. > BTW, my favourite bassists are Simon Gallup from The Cure, Pete Trewavas from > Marillion and Jaco Pastorius. :-) > >I agree with your statement about Mark's work being subtle. His strength > >to me is that he is an outstanding piano player. His best work is when > >he is using that sort of approach to his playing. I don't mean that he > >is always necessarily using a piano or piano sound when he is playing a > >passage either. His other keyboard work is very textural. He seems to > >create keyboard washes. I think that, on the whole though, Mark > >approaches his keyboard work from a piano player's point of view. > > I understand this. I find that Mark's work is at his weakest when he is > deliberately trying to sound un-piano/keyboardy - for example all the > instrument-imitation on This Strange Engine (strings, trumpets, flutes etc.) > annoys me because it sounds too fake. I much prefer the more textural > keyboard work and piano parts (although the song This Strange Engine has > enough of that for a whole album! - question: what's the instrument which > makes the weird synth runs Mark used to do on the really early albums, and > then did again for this song and (I think) White Russian?). On your synth question, I listened to the song "This Strange Engine". I also listened to "Just For The Record" off of CAS. "White Russian" doesn't have any of the same type of playing. "White Russian" does have one of those awesome Rothery solos though! :-) Both "This Strange Engine" and "Just For The Record" have the same type of synth solo and the same type of synth sound. "Incommunicado" also has that same synth sound. They sound like classic mini Moog solos to my ears. Hopefully a keyboard player here on Ecto can help to confirm this for us. > >I believe that Martin Orford approaches his playing from an overall > >keyboard player's perspective. He seems to use more organ, synth and > >mellotron (strings, voices, flutes) type of sounds in his playing. Now I > >do realize that they are both using primarily synthesizers to get most > >of these sounds. > > I imagine this to work in a similar way to Bank's work on Genesis albums? > (not accusing Martin of copying, but Banks' work seems to show the quality > you mentioned). Hmm, just thinking of that opening to the first song on Lush > Attic. You're right. I get the feeling that Martin Orford was very much influenced by Tony Banks. So yes, I think that his approach is similar to Tony Banks' keyboard approach. It is interesting to me that Banks started as a piano player. However, he is well versed on other keyboards as well. He plays the organ, mellotron and syhthesizers equally as well as piano. > >As a guitarist myself, my favorite guitarists, I believe, play with > >emotion, passion, fire and soul. Many of them are very technically > >skilled, but it is the emotion that they put into their work that gets > >to me. My favorites are Andy Latimer, David Gilmour, Steve Hackett, > >Steve Rothery, Carlos Santana and Eric Clapton. > > Have to say that my favourite guitar work would be that of Marty > Wilson-Piper and Peter Koppes in The Church, especially the kind of stuff > they've been doing throughout the nineties, which almost approaches prog. > Their latest album, Hologram of Baal, was my pick of the year, and is > comparable to Brave and Afraid Of Sunlight. As I said earlier, I just recently acquired "Starfish" and I love it. I will have to track down "Hologram of Baal". Thanks for the suggestion! There's a few big differences - > Kilbey's singing is deadpan rather than emotive (his lyrics are brilliant > though), they don't have a keyboardist, but use weird production, and the > brilliance of the guitar work is more from the guitarists' ability to play > off each other than an ability to solo. A great example would be "Reptile" > from their most successful album, Starfish, where Peter plays a short, high > staccato line while Marty interweaves a low, moaning Rothery-style line on > top. The effect is amazing. I again agree with you wholeheartedly about the guitar work on "Reptile". Excellent interplay and contrast between the two guitar parts. > I'd say I prefer work like that, where guitars intermingle to create a lush > sound, though Rothery would probably come second to The Church in my humble > and illogical opinion. And of course I love Marr's melodies in The Smith's > work. > > >At times his work is also quite > >powerful as is his organ playing on "Hard as Love". His playing on this > >piece kind of contradicts all of my previous statements about Mark > >taking primarily a piano playing approach to his work. > > His work on their latest album is an extension of that sort of playing. "Radiation" is a very modern sounding recording. I have read that some of the band members are really into Radiohead. "Radiation" seems a bit of a departure, but I like it a lot. > >I find it interesting and very cool that your favorite Marillion CDs > >come from both the Fish and H eras. I too love both incarnations of the > >band. > > I absolutely love Fish's lyrics, but I find that while Hogarth/Helmer's work > can be at times simplistic, the lyrical economy of a piece like Out Of This > World can be just as effective as, say Blind Curve. The great singing > doesn't hurt either. Because I don't really care about genres, musically I > just require that the songs have a high standard of Marillion-brand > emotiveness, which they've generally managed to maintain for their entire > existance. Fish is a creatively potent and clever wordsmith. I too highly admire his lyrics. They can be difficult to listen to at times though. Some of his lyrics from the Marillion days were very dark and bitter. Hogarth/Helmer write some beautiful lyrics that may be simple, but as you say they can also be very effective. I believe that lyrics in "Easter", "Season's End", "Dry Land" and "Estonia" are all very beautiful. Bill ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V5 #57 *************************