From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V4 #273 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Friday, August 14 1998 Volume 04 : Number 273 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Help! (if you can, with FAQ facts) ["Xenu's Sister" ] Re: *Really* evil/anti Lilith/Sarah article up on the web... [00jnweiser@] more Lilith stuff (winter tour??) [00jnweiser@bsuvc.bsu.edu] Lilith article... [00jnweiser@bsuvc.bsu.edu] Suffragette Sessions info [Sherlyn Koo ] Re: more Lilith stuff (winter tour??) [Birdie ] Re: Lilith Fair in "Curve" magazine [rjk1@cs.wustl.edu (Bob Kollmeyer)] EctoGuide contributors' addresses (long, but please check) [Neile Graham ] Re: *Really* evil/anti Lilith/Sarah article up on the web... [Birdie Subject: Help! (if you can, with FAQ facts) I'm actually attempting a major overhaul of the FAQ (gasp!!!) and I need some help on some things. I'm a quite a few of days away from being finished, because I've been trying to do more than just update it. I want to add lots more information and links. I almost have the discography section finished, and wanted to throw it out there for any additions or corrections. I especially want to hear from anyone who has the 'Adventures In Music,' the 'Hard Report Sampler' and the 'Sleepy Hollow 25th Anniversary' for information about them. And are there any others that I've forgotton or may not know about? Sharon? Kevin? Collaborations and Compilations Happy has appeared on: 1985 Kevin Bartlett: Incantations (only appeared on cassette, out of print) *Vocals on "Pretty Dreamy Stuff" 1986 Kevin Bartlett: Evocations (only appeared on cassette, out of print) *Vocals on "Random Chants Dance" 1987 Kevin Bartlett: Spatial Thanx (only appeared on cassette, out of print) *A KB compilation, contains "Pretty Dreamy Stuff" 1992? Adventures in Music: nice and easy (probably unavailable) 1993 MIDEM '93 (probably unavailable) *"Feed The Fire" - (Album version, from Warpaint) *"Waking Up" - (Album version, from Warpaint) 1993 Hard Report Sampler? (official title unknown, probably unavailable) 1993 Mitch Elrod's Swim Team: The Muse Of Intent (available from Aural Gratification) *Painted the cover art 1994 Alternative Woodstock (Slice 0101-2) (try Slice/Woodstock Records, P.O. Box 515, Wdsk, NY 12498 (914) 679-2176) *"I Say" - (Album version, from Equipoise) 1994 A Little Nip (GRRRHHM003) (try Grrr Records, 66 Hannay Ln, Glenmont, NY 12077) *"Closer" - (Album version, from Equipoise) 1995 Live At The World Cafe Vol. I (WC9501), WXPN (215) 898-6677 *"Feed The Fire" - (Acoustic version, originally from Warpaint) 1995 Album Network Adult Rock #5 Promotional CD (RCA) (818) 955-4000 *"Glory" - (Album mix, originally from Building The Colossus) 1995 Aural Gratification Volume I Ambient AGCD0033 (available from Aural Gratification) *"die Atmosphäre in der Stadt" *"myrr (the smoking car)" *"ra is a busy god" 1995 Aural Gratification Volume II Ambient AGCD0034 (available from Aural Gratification) *"like kryptonite to superman" *"skimming the hovergear" *"hex on IV" 1997 Project Lo Black Canvas (LoLo Records) (http://www.artist-shop.com/) *Vocals on "Mercy Street" (Cover of Peter Gabriel song) *Vocals on "Perfection" (Ben Lozaga song) 1998 Sleepy Hollow 25th Anniversary SH9701 (status unknown) 1998 Robby Aceto: Code (Alchemy Records) *Happy performed and arranged the backing vocals on "Shane Heads For the Immaculate Mountains" - Alchemy Records has a sound sample of this song. Vickie DIVX = GREED - Boycott Circuit City! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 19:24:29 -0500 (EST) From: 00jnweiser@bsuvc.bsu.edu Subject: Re: *Really* evil/anti Lilith/Sarah article up on the web... Birdie writes: >> Heh, I don't think that's very true. As Jason said, none of >> the women on that tour (with the exception of Sarah, Paula >> Cole, IG, and anyone else that got a bit of radio play), were >> safe bets until it all took off last year and they realized >> how successful everyone was. > >Who wasn't sure they were safe bets? Corporate sponsors? I don't have any idea. I guess so. >Who are the corporate sponsors for Lilith Fair ? I think Levi's, Biore, maybe Starbucks. >If lesbian music festivals sell out - I don't see who in their right mind >would think a tour of currently trendy getting famous with corporate >label support - packaged by agents tour of women artists would be a >risk! Lesbian music festivals sell out? Well, they're certainly smaller than Lilith Fair was, though, aren't they? How many people approx. attend the Michigan Fest anyway? I'm not aware. There was some kind of singer-songwriter-women's thing that's apparently annual held at my college this summer, i was out of town and couldn't be there, though, i'm not sure what their attendance was. I don't think the corporate sponsorship had much to do with it, really...I think people go because they like the music, not cause Levi's sponsors it. >The risk would be if the tour organisers had never done a tour before >and didn't have a proper business framework set-up. They *hadn't* done a tour *this big* before, though. At least I'm not aware of a tour this large that has travelled across the US for this long...? >> For example, there's a 17 year old artist on the tour this >> year, Maren Ord, who is being scouted by labels and management, >> but has yet to be signed. This is, in my opinion, a chance >> that they're taking, and I think that people will see this person >> perform and be encouraged by the fact that a 17 year old writes >> and performs her own material, yet there's still a risk putting >> her on the tour... > >Excuse me, but Laura Nyro wrote some of her biggest hits before >she was 16 years old..."And When I Die" is one of them. Whoa, whoa, whoa. I think you're misunderstanding my point. I was just using her as an example. I've heard her sing and she's great and I have no doubt in my mind that she'll do fine up there on the stage. >Mozart and a great many after him were all musical genius' as >children.....How many children are presently taking violin and piano >lessons and playing quite well? I know all of this, thanks. i wasn't doubting anything because of her age, I just chose to use her as an example. >***Please explain why you think Maren Ord and local artists are a >risk.**** Heh. Well, okay, what if they get up there and she just freaks out and forgets a bunch of stuff? i have no idea, it seems to me that it's more of a risk because they're unheard of. I wasn't saying at all that it's a risk in a bad way or she shouldn't be up there, hell, *I'm* 21 and trying to get a spot on next year's local artist stage if they have one. >> Have you heard of Kinnie Starr? Indigo Girls? >> Holly McNarland? Meredith Brooks (shudder)? I mean, I'm not >> going to comment on their physical appearance, cause that makes >> no difference to me, but their music isn't *all* pretty.... and >> there's some louder artists on the bill this year... and Missy >> Elliot? > >How much press have they been getting? I think the toplining artists >get all the press.....and are therefore the ones representing Lilith Fair >to the general public and benefitting the most. No, that's not true. Missy Elliot was on that EW cover w/ the rest of the others. Indigo Girls have *certainly* been getting lots of press, and yes I know thy are a "toplining" artist. I see articles about the lesser-know artists all of the time: Tara MacLean, Billie Myers has been mentioned in the press a couple of times, Emm Gryner, etc. I don't read *all* of the articles on LF to know who all has been mentioned, but I've seen quite a bit on the village stage artists. I personally was way more interested in all of the 2nd, local, whatever stage artists this year than the main stage performers, even though I didn't get a chance to go this year. >This also means that a 17 year old like Maren Ord *could* in fact be >more talented than Paula Cole or more to someones taste. > Yes, I *Realize* that, I never said or meant to imply that she *isn't*. Geez. I know that there are women far far more talented and interesting >and worthy of attention OFF the Lilith Fair line-up than on it. > >Patti Smith, Kate Bush, Alison Moyet, Joni Mitchell, Ronee Blakley, Patti Smith *was* on LF. >Judy Collins, The late great Malvina Reynolds, Dusty Springfield, >Aretha-Aretha-Aretha, Patti LaBelle, Marcella Detroit, Sousie, Annie >Lennox, Garbage, k.d Lang, Gloria Estfan and really...the list goes >on and on. Many of those people were invited. I know that Garbage, kd lang, and I believe Annie Lennox were. >I'd rather see any or all of the above than the white-middle class >status quo artists on the Lilith Fair line-up. Good. That's *you*. Many people wouldn't. Hell, I'd like to see both. I'd like to see *any* festival of good music. People are going to go to see what they're interested in. If the Newport Folk Festival was closer, I'd have gone to that. If Michigan was closer, I would've gone to that. Lilith Fair is the only tour that I know of that was convenient for me to get to (if I would've been in town). >>There's a fairly big difference, >> in my opinion, between the artists on Lilith (I'm willing to bet >> 99% of whom) who write their *own* music and words, many produce >> their own stuff, etc. Mariah and Celine seem very much to me to >> be products of a corporation > >Nettwerk isn't a corporation? Lilith Fair doesn't have corporate Nettwerk *is* a corporation, but LF is it's *own* company. >No no wait. She wasn't that big before she did this and yes, all the >attention from it has helped her and her agents and her managers >and her record company sell bushels more CDs than they ever >would have..... > >That was *the* point. To be as successful as possible. > >Lilith Fair is a packaged event with corporate backing. Tell me how it's possible to have a tour like Lilith Fair *without* corporate backing. >No, you don't know...you are simply trolling using well known names >like Mariah and Celine. Both of them do charity work and are very >well respected for it. Nobody does their singing but themselves. I'm *not* trolling, thank you ver much. I wasn't even the one who brought those names into the conversation. Mariah does charity work? Great for her! They sing those songs, yes I'm aware of that. I still wouldn't group them in the same category as Sarah or whatever, but that's *my* opinion. >> and didn't Joan Baez play a show? hmm.I can't remember, oh well. >> Another pioneer is rumored to be appearing at an upcoming show, >> but who knows if that will happen... > >Gee, maybe.....Holly Near? No, actually. At least that wasn't who I was thinking of. >> >artists are sadly underrepresented in LF: Where's Kirsty MacColl? Jane >> >Siberry? Anna Domino? etc.etc.etc. >> >> Hmm. I wonder--none of them, with the exception of *maybe* Jane >> Siberry-- really put out new music anymore--why would anyone *want* >> to seem them? > >Because they are intelligent, challenging, talented and loved by their >audiences perhaps? Totally, however *I'm* not the one who made the decisions about LF and *that* was one of the criteria that was used when the artists were chosen. i didn't say that it was right or that I believed it, I just know that was one of the reasons behind why some of the artists weren't on the tour. >I think what you said is "why would anyone want to see someone >who isn't currently trendie?" No, it isn't ME who said that, I was told that by someone close to the fair who has seen some of the behind the scene stuff, etc. Please don't put words into my mouth. >I'm already completely overdosed on Sarah and Paula Cole just >from radio and TV exposure. They have reached their expiration >date...much like Hootie and The Blowfish did.....they seriously cashed >in...which checks people out. I'll agree, I've been a Sarah fan long before all the Lilith stuff and Surfacing and have grown really sick of all the media- radio-TV stuff... same with Paula Cole. Charley writes: >> > So, in other words, to oversimplify and summarize (I gotta catch a >> >train), the people profiting from LF, either financially or >> >exposure-wise, are doing so by hypocritically exploiting the plight of >> >the artists they are _not_ including in their event. > >Right and I think more men are gaining from this per capita than >women - financially - payroll and accounts payable wise...... >West Coast as that gives the impression of a variety of very talented >artists going out to play music rather than being currently trendy >artists with corporate sponsors going out to get a lot of press to sell >more CDs and make bigger names for themselves and and throw in >some good causes and make a statement they are not ball busting >women or lesbians. Which can be said for LF. > >Currently trendy and whoever gets the most attention matters to >record companies, sponsors, and the general mainstream press >and public. > >The best and most incredible and the hippest thing to do however >would be......to see Jane Siberry with 30 other people in Portland, >Oregon for a weekend event at someones house................................. Then set it up! LRTs happen all the time, and if artists are willing to do it, they're fun. I would much rather see any of the artists in my Living Room too... particularly the village stage acts... There are currently lots of LRTs happening on the East Coast and West Coast. One is coming up in Cali, featuring Beth Waters, Aife Wells, etc. If you're in Portland and you wanna see someone, bring them to you! Contact their management or whatever. >Or Cindy Lee Berryhill on her LR tour.... She was amazing. >The whole Living Room Tour scene and massively talented artists >playing in wee small cafes and clubs is without question the most >exciting and refreshing music scene going on...... I'll agree. >Those are about just going out to play and connect with the >audience. No agents, managers, corporations, record labels >involved. Well Rolling Stone just did a small feature on them... >Birdie ( who has produced women artists from the 60's, 70's, 80's >and 90's - some lesbian - some not - some with all women bands >and some with men -) Are you available still? :) I'd be really interested in talking to you about production, etc. jessica n. weiser / 00jnweiser@bsuvc.bsu.edu / http://adam.nettfriends.com/Jess "i'm stained all through my insides" - e.g. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 19:31:48 -0500 (EST) From: 00jnweiser@bsuvc.bsu.edu Subject: more Lilith stuff (winter tour??) Interesting discussion going on w/ the article.:) I'm wondering--the IG have set up some sort of winter Lilith-ish kinda of tour, right? lisa germano is on it...several other lilith-and-non-lilith performers. Does anyone know anything more about this? I'm sure it won't come to Indianapolis, but maybe somewhere close... thanks, jessica n. weiser / 00jnweiser@bsuvc.bsu.edu / http://adam.nettfriends.com/Jess "i'm stained all through my insides" - e.g. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 19:35:12 -0500 (EST) From: 00jnweiser@bsuvc.bsu.edu Subject: Lilith article... Charley writes: >Nice list, Neil. Where'd you get it. Go to the Lilith Fair website. The artists are all listed there. Most of them are the local winners or village stage performers. www.lilithfair.com, which will jump to the excite site...I can't remember that exact address now. jessica n. weiser / 00jnweiser@bsuvc.bsu.edu / http://adam.nettfriends.com/Jess "i'm stained all through my insides" - e.g. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 11:06:08 +1000 From: Sherlyn Koo Subject: Suffragette Sessions info Hey folks, Jessica said: >I'm wondering--the IG have set up some sort of winter Lilith-ish >kinda of tour, right? lisa germano is on it...several other >lilith-and-non-lilith performers. Does anyone know anything >more about this? I'm sure it won't come to Indianapolis, but >maybe somewhere close... Yep... this tour is called the Suffragette Sessions and was announced about a month ago. It's being organised by the Indigo Girls and has a lot of different women on the lineup: [From Sonicnet, July 13] >Joining the folk duo on the tour will be female funk-pop act >Luscious Jackson's Kate Schellenbach; violinist Lisa Germano >(John Mellencamp); folk singer Jane Siberry; Gail Ann Dorsey; >Lourdes Perez; Jean Smith of Mecca Normal; former Breeder >Josephine Wiggs; and Come's Thalia Zedek. The opening bands for the tour will be Shonen Knife in some cities, and Buffalo Daughter in others. It was reported that Ann Wilson from Heart was also going to be on the tour but apparently she had to cancel. How it will work will apparently be: [From Rocktropolis, July 23] >"I'm the drummer for the whole thing," explains Schellenbach. >"How it works is, everyone's on a roster, there's 11 musicians >who pick two to three songs they want to do, and you pick >among the people on the list. Like, I want Josephine to play >stand-up bass and Ann Wilson to sing backup and so on." The tour dates are: Suffragette Sessions Tour Dates: Aug. 19; Portland, Maine, TBA Aug. 20; Burlington, Vt., Memorial Auditorium Aug. 22; Cleveland, Ohio, Agora Aug. 24; Detroit, Mich., State Theater Aug. 25; Chicago, Ill., Riviera Aug. 26; Chicago, Ill., Riviera Aug. 27; Milwaukee, Wis., TBA Aug. 28; Minneapolis, Minn., First Avenue Aug. 30; Cincinnati, Ohio, Bogart's Sept. 1; Norfolk, Va., Boathouse Sept. 2; Philadelphia, Pa., Electric Factory Sept. 3; New York, N.Y., Roseland Ballroom I believe tickets for all dates are now on sale. Try Ticketmaster or the venue itself... :) sherlyn =-= Sherlyn Koo - sherlyn@fl.net.au =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= a+e=ig "It's better to breathe out, better to leap before you look." - Peter Mulvey ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 18:26:59 -0700 From: Birdie Subject: Re: more Lilith stuff (winter tour??) 00jnweiser@bsuvc.bsu.edu wrote: > I'm wondering--the IG have set up some sort of winter Lilith-ish > kinda of tour, right? I wouldn't call it a Lilith-ish kinda tour anymore than I would call Lilith Fair - a Michigan Women's festival type of show..... It's actually based on Bob Dylan's Rolling Thunder Revue ( which included Joni Mitchell, Ronee Blakley, Joan Baez, The Band, Dylan, and others)..... Who all played their own songs as well as joined each other on stage and played together..... It's about a bunch of artists going out and having fun together and with the audience. A novel idea in this day and age. Without question - it looks to be the best tour of the summer. Birdie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 20:30:50 -0500 From: rjk1@cs.wustl.edu (Bob Kollmeyer) Subject: Re: Lilith Fair in "Curve" magazine "J." Wermont writes: > But with Lilith, that's not the case. "Women" really means *women* (OK, > straight women in the public eye, but what I mean is, it's not a euphemism). They have, IMHO, without a doubt gone out of their way to not use the phrase "women's music" - which is why, I suppose, they went with "Lilith Fair: A Celebration of Women in Music" as the full title of the tour. Which is, in turn, what got them in "trouble" for being so uniform in their artist selection last year - the implication (to some people) that if certain types of music weren't represented, someone must feel women playing such styles were not worthy of being celebrated. And you can count me as one who loved last year's tour and enjoyed all 6 I made it to. 1 will be quite enough this year. It seems to have gone from a "place for music" to a "place to be". Part of it was probably the "diversity" - I've become convinced that 'common courtesy' is now the biggest oxymoron in the english language. Courtesy seems to be anything but common anymore and if you don't particularly care for whoever is on stage at the moment, anything goes regardless of those around you. The more diverse the lineup, the larger the section of the audience that will be alienated at some point. I personally enjoyed it and while the side stages continued to be surrounded by people there for the music (Catie Curtis was the highlight of the day, Victoria Williams was great though she was hobbled by a well- bandaged right wrist and fingers - anyone know whats up?, Drugstore was a blast), the rudeness of people around me for the main stage acts was inexcusable. As far as including local acts, I'm of mixed emotion. Last year they were a bit undecided as to what the first act of the day should be - sometimes a local, sometimes a mainstage artist doing an acoustic set, sometimes nothing - for example in Chicago I was privileged to witness Camille Henderson's opportunity to step Out of the Shadows, so to speak. It's got to be tremendous for the local artists - both as an experience and in terms of exposure, but umm, I can see them often. With 2nd and 3rd stage acts, (especially ones I'd not heard/probably have no chance to see otherwise) often being among the highlights of the shows I've seen, that's a spot that some non-local isn't getting to perhaps branch out for the first time in their career providing a somewhat safer than normal home-away-from-home. Like I said, mixed emotions. bob np. Brigid Boden, s/t - hmmm. fills that oh-so-narrow gap between traditional Celtic and say, Deep Forest. ;) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:53:59 -0700 From: Neile Graham Subject: EctoGuide contributors' addresses (long, but please check) Hey all-- This is the contributor's list from The Ectophiles' Guide, and I would greatly appreciate it is everyone would give it a quick once over and let me know if anyone is listed more than once (such as with two different email addresses) or if you're listed one way and would prefer to be listed another. Remember, this doesn't have to be your email address at all--that's just the default we use. 00jnweiser@bsuvc.bsu.edu 72064.3606@compuserve.com abehrend@direct.ca afinney@ozonline.com.au afries@zip.com.au alex.teitz@state.co.us alien@yours.com Alvin.Brattli@phys.uit.no Andrea@hivnet.ubc.ca anthony@mh1.lbl.gov anthony@xymox.apana.org.au anthony.baxter@aaii.oz.au ariana@kbp.com art@cs.sfu.ca as010b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu awphili@hacktic.nl barbearuh@erols.com basil@naxs.com bc70131@binghamton.edu beckwith@ime.net bighat@camelot.bradley.edu bill@wagill.com bossert@corp.sgi.com BOUTAME@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu brianb@mooman.com bridgesm@logica.co.uk burnettj@scils.rutgers.edu bvmi@odin.cc.pdx.edu bye@humnet.ucla.edu c.boek@ee.mu.OZ.AU candre@enteract.com cgidney@nas.edu chip-l@nwu.edu chris@foodsci.rutgers.edu Chris@neuron.uchu.edu cinnamon@one.net cjmacs@cris.com clsriram@phoenix.Princeton.EDU colford@noblenet.org contzen@sfu.ca CSARIS@upe.ac.za CSpix@t-online.de cstack@ix.netcom.com dalton@geop.ubc.ca damon@pobox.com danstark@mnsi.net DAVIS@OSWEGO.ARPC.ALCAN.CA dbucak@netaxs.com dbx@aa.net depeche@binkley.cs.mcgill.ca Dirk.Kastens@rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE ditto@host.taconic.net dixon@physics.Berkeley.EDU dlw@sympatico.ca dmayowel@access.digex.net drk@leland.stanford.edu dreaming@nevada.edu ectophil@netlink.co.nz ecurrent@sizone.jaywon.pci.on.ca elan@access.digex.net elionwyr@onix.com elisheva@netaxs.com enzo1@idt.net erik@designpartner.no Ethan_Straffin@next.com fleur@one.net forum@inlink.com (Irvin I know I should be changing this one) garrick@area51.upsu.plym.ac.uk Garry_Potter.VICROADS@vrnotes.roads.vic.gov.au gmcdonald@zdi.ziff.com Greg.Jumper@Eng.Sun.COM gregdunn@indy.net groovy@his.com GTP10@cus.cam.ac.uk hartbarb@Mattel.com Hiptones@worldnet.att.net hkd@tln.lib.mi.us hrussell@bellsouth.net HYAMS@alpha.nsula.edu ishara@blarg.net I_SW@zis.ziff.com ItsyBitsyS@aol.com jason@ea.oac.uci.edu JavaHo@aol.com jbr@casetech.dk jburka@cqi.com JC214@aol.com jcunnane@fsm.fugro.co.uk jeffw@smoe.org jgreshes@netaxs.com jjhanson@worldnet.att.net JLeonard@st.ceu.edu jmg@serv.net joc@netaxs.com jpinola@phoenix.oulu.fi jsorva@niksula.hut.fi jsutton@rahul.net julesette@mci.newscorp.com justicek@edge.ercnet.com jwaite@ucsd.edu jwermont@netcom.com jzitt@humansystems.com kamesan@geocities.com Kate_Tabasko@transarc.com kbmoore@indiana.edu kcd@cray.com kebst22+@pitt.edu Kelley.Hays-Gilpin@nau.edu kjetilho@ifi.uio.no klaus.kluge@gmx.de ksilver@engr.startek.com kyrlidis@templeton.cchem.berkeley.edu lanblind@teleport.com laur@pobox.com laurel@pobox.com lissener@wwa.com ljk1@cec.wustl.edu lombaeg@donald.interpac.be lotus@oz.net lombaeg@donald.interpac.be LynnK68685@aol.com LynnGarrett@aol.com maeldun@i-2000.com mapravat@prairienet.org MARION.KIPPERS@wkap.nl marks59@ix.netcom.com matthewm@smoe.org mbittner(at)juno.com mbravo@tctube.spb.su mcurry@io.com METH@smoe.org mfgr@bart.nl miazgama@pilot.msu.edu MIHARKI@indsvax1.indstate.edu mjmjm@usa.net mjs@biostat.mc.duke.edu mjstevens@mindspring.com mojzes@monet.vill.edu mp@moonmac.com mundopax@ingress.com neile@sff.net nightwol@dircon.co.uk nkg@vcn.bc.ca NOUDENHOVEN@lbs.lon.ac.uk NyxNight@aol.com pas@MATH.AMS.ORG philipda@li.net pearceja@wl.wpafb.af.mil psfblair@ix.netcom.com pkkim@amhux4.amherst.edu pmcohen@voicenet.com relph@presto.ig.com rholmes@cs.stanford.edu Riphug@aol.com rjk1@cs.wustl.edu rkb200@is5.nyu.edu rkonrad@gwi.net rlovejoy@bellatlantic.net rmorrow@afit.af.mil sagetodd@postoffice.ptd.net sam@ansys.com samurgie@sgi.net SANDOVAL@stsci.edu scottz@crl.com sherlyn@fl.net.au sherm@tardis.roc.servtech.com slambert@interport.net smolla@siscom.net spike45@sos.sos.net sspan starkeee@whitman.edu stephen@psych.utoronto.ca stevev@miser.uoregon.edu straffin@cs.stanford.edu stuart@sph.emory.edu swiebe@callisto.uwinnipeg.ca talbotj@rferl.org tcook@cix.compulink.co.uk terra@mhv.net Tom Proven trow@slip.net tugboat@channel1.com uchima@mcs.net uli@zoodle.robin.de Urs Stafford valerie@smoe.org V115P8D6@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu vickie@wwa.com Violaine@juno.com westie winona@netcom.com woj@remus.rutgers.edu ydd@dcs.ed.ac.uk Yves.Denneulin@lifl.fr zaphod@oz.net zoe@clark.net zzkwhite@ktwu.wuacc.edu Also, if you're not on this list and you know I have comments of yours on file and your email address or preferred address may have changed, please let me know. Thanks for your help with this! - --Neile - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Neile Graham ..... http://www.sff.net/people/neile ..... neile@sff.net The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music .... http://www.smoe.org/ectoguide - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 20:31:55 -0700 From: Birdie Subject: Re: *Really* evil/anti Lilith/Sarah article up on the web... 00jnweiser@bsuvc.bsu.edu wrote: > Lesbian music festivals sell out? Well, they're certainly smaller > than Lilith Fair was, though, aren't they? How many people approx. > attend the Michigan Fest anyway? 5,000 and it goes for 4-5 days - which is a long time to be camping out with 5,000 women. It's not a simple show to produce - 5,000 women have to eat, sleep, have body fluids come and go, and a good percentage of them will be at least 1/2 naked and possibly full of mud as sometimes it rains very hard. Those events are more akin to "Woodstock" than Lilith Fair or Suffragette Sessions or The Rolling Thunder Revue. Lilith Fair appears to be modeled after one of those tours that are mostly comprised of men.....Lopalaooza et al For the old Olivia -Redwood records tours they packed 1,500 - 5,000 seat theatres, auditoriums, and assorted venues (which could be smaller). Olivia has successfully produced all lesbian cruise ship vacations for maybe 10 years now. They are doing quite well. >I think people > go because they like the music, not cause Levi's sponsors it. The Rolling Stones and others tend to get a lot of beer and alcohol sponsors..... It's no different than sporting events - tennis, soccer, football - all of it has heavy corporate sponsorship. It's who you choose and how they are presented. I do know LF didn't pick budwieser or virginia slims.... And only chose acceptable to yuppie companies and all of them have been around longer than the artists in the show and will continue to be around longer than the artists in the show...... And that is merely the truth. Puts a whole new perspective on things doesn't it? The image of Levi's is burned stronger in my mind than that of Paula Cole....you just can't compete with Levi's. So, I perceive LF to be first and foremost a corporate affair with the artists running 2nd in all the packaging...then it's presented as this womens music show and I go "Hey, I think more guys are involved than girls all together and those guys should have a voice too". It's a form of reverse sexism! Where's the B-52's when you really need them.... > They *hadn't* done a tour *this big* before, though. At least I'm > not aware of a tour this large that has travelled across the US > for this long...? Well, in the 60's and 70's - whole bunches of acts went out on the road together - you could have the Zombies, Dusty Springfield, Tom Jones, Marianne Faithfull, The Seekers, and so on all going off together as a packaged tour and internationally. The Motown acts did this as well. They all got stuffed into buses and had really grueling schedules... Then there was the shows at The Brooklyn Fox where the doors opened at 10am and the first show was at 11am and they world run all day and night long. You would do maybe 3 shows a day in one place and there would be 7 different acts and short films and so on. The girls had to get up like at 5am to get their hair and clothes together...... Performers today are totally pampered compared....the buses alone are nothing like the ones in the 60's. [snippage] regarding a 17 yr old performer.... > Heh. Well, okay, what if they get up there and she just freaks out > and forgets a bunch of stuff? i have no idea, it seems to me that > it's more of a risk because they're unheard of. I wasn't saying at > all that it's a risk in a bad way or she shouldn't be up there, hell, > *I'm* 21 and trying to get a spot on next year's local artist stage > if they have one. Having local artists aboard is a very savvy way to help attract an audience. Local artists have built in local followings which in turn the headlining acts want to tap into. Make no mistake about it - the headliners are getting a hand from the local talent and that talents own following (s)... It's more of a business decision than anything as also they really don't want to pay to transport and put-up unknowns that don't have a label or anything to pay for tour expenses. Local talent makes sense financially and so they are used. > I don't read *all* of the > articles on LF to know who all has been mentioned, but I've > seen quite a bit on the village stage artists. I personally > was way more interested in all of the 2nd, local, whatever > stage artists this year than the main stage performers, even > though I didn't get a chance to go this year. The 2nd stage and local artist angle of the show maybe the very thing that has kept it going....otherwise.....the press would focus relentlessly on the headliners and the burn-out factor for everybody would be much higher. Billie Myers and the IG have press going on about them because of hit singles and/or their own names apart from LF. Others have label support which gets them the press. All the offical LF press conferences I saw snippets of - had the headliners......not the 2nd stage or local acts. It's like everybody is divided up depending on their level of fame and......well....fame doesn't make the art nor should art be measured by how much or how little fame it or its master attracts. There are a lot of unknown Van Gogh's out there in the music world. The labels want trends to jump on......and then which get run into the ground. I am preferring this latest trend to the heavy - metal and rap trends. But even the "Ok everybody lets create a wall of strumming guitars" trend drove me crazy... I much prefer eclectic variety from a multitude of eras and styles. I've decided that the trends that the record companies foster take advantage of people who are stressed out and addictive- complusive.....and the labels themselves are insecure and need trends to follow and milk every nickel out of.... Playing the same thing or type of thing I think satisfies and calms those kind of people down.... Myself I get bored and annoyed from all the sameness.... And eventually they do burn everybody out..... > >This also means that a 17 year old like Maren Ord *could* in fact be > >more talented than Paula Cole or more to someones taste. > > > > Yes, I *Realize* that, I never said or meant to imply that > she *isn't*. Geez. Oh good. Now everybody is clear on that.... The Suffragettes Sessions Tour you'll note has an eclectic mix of artists - some known, some unknown, some younger - some older...and while nobody could be considered "trendy" - they all are marvellously talented and incrediably committed artists and it will be an amazing and fun show to see. Yes, I suspect fun.... I think I'll call it "The lesbians with the straight girlfriends in tow" show. LF has been "The straight girls with a few lesbians in tow" show. And I think the Suffragette Sessions tour will be more fun for men than LF.... In fact, I think men should get to go to more shows with lesbians as they can just run around and have fun without any expecations put on them....just a bunch of women who go "We just want to be friends with you...we don't want your bank account, car, earnings, life insurance policy, car...did I say car already? Nor for you to take care of me 100%." In between acts they could pick up or share tips on everything from engine oil to bread baking. > >I'd rather see any or all of the above than the white-middle class > >status quo artists on the Lilith Fair line-up. > > Good. That's *you*. Many people wouldn't. Hell, I'd like to see > both. I'd like to see *any* festival of good music. People are > going to go to see what they're interested in. If the Newport > Folk Festival was closer, I'd have gone to that. If Michigan was > closer, I would've gone to that. Lilith Fair is the only tour > that I know of that was convenient for me to get to (if I would've > been in town). And it is an excellent thing that there are other shows to go to and/or at least discuss... At first, LF didn't want to be compared to or seen as the same as Michigan et al and at the same time basically wanted to be perceived as the one the only the best the biggest and that the whole concept was new. Not a new concept. It's a patchwork of threads taken from previous tours and shows and rolled up into a new context. They've taken from the largely male tours of the past few years as well as the womens music scene as well as from Joni Mitchell, Joan Baez, Judy Collins, Ronee Blakley, Phoebe Snow, Laura Nyro, Grace Slick and all the other women before them. One can see how the formula was blended together. I don't find it original in the least and I believe in credit going where it is deserved and inspirations being shared. Otherwise it feels dishonest and causes hard feelings. I don't think credit has gone where it is deserved and struggles have risen up because of it. Sarah is not her ideas. In fact, her ideas are not even "her" ideas. I prefer a more honest and educational - open approach. LF has appeared to be more egocentric to Sarah than an honest morph or showcase for women artists.... But then...maybe those 2nd and local stage women will have gotten a footing because of it.....and that is certainly a good thing. > Tell me how it's possible to have a tour like Lilith Fair > *without* corporate backing. I don't think The Rolling Thunder revue had corporate backing - outside of any label support. Non-label corporate backing didn't start to happen in earnest until the 80's. Anybody see any giant hoovering Bud bottles at Woodstock? Altamont? Just giant hoovering bikers? right. > >Or Cindy Lee Berryhill on her LR tour.... > > She was amazing. > > >The whole Living Room Tour scene and massively talented artists > >playing in wee small cafes and clubs is without question the most > >exciting and refreshing music scene going on...... > > I'll agree. > > >Those are about just going out to play and connect with the > >audience. No agents, managers, corporations, record labels > >involved. > > Well Rolling Stone just did a small feature on them... Yes, well...they do have to cover the trends ;-) > Are you available still? :) I'd be really interested in talking > to you about production, etc. Busy with friends at the moment who will probably get me more and more busy as time goes by...... But if you have any questions - want opinions or pointers you can e-mail me.... Cheers, Birdie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 22:50:47 -0500 (EST) From: 00jnweiser@bsuvc.bsu.edu Subject: a couple more thoughts on the Lilith article Hi there, I guess I haven't been very clear and articulate about my views on the whole Lilith thing...I've had kind of a bad day/week and should've spent more time writing down my response off the net before I sent it. Anyway, i just wanted to add a couple of things to this whole argument, etc., whatever it is that we're having. It has been interesting to see everyone's views. Although I disagree with some things that have been said, it's still cool to see other points of view, etc., and I'm glad this list has stayed a little more civil than FTE can get sometimes.:) Anyway, basically I just wanted to say that I believe comparing Lilith Fair to the Michigan Womyn's Festival is like comparing apples to *extreme* oranges. I don't think they should've been compared in the article, and I don't think they should be compared now like they are...they're obviously two *very* different music festivals that run differently. The Michigan festival has been around a long time, and I think that's great... I've never been able to go to one, I actually just heard about it for the first time last year, but I'd be interseted in going someday or maybe possilby even having the chance to perform at it one day... The Michigan festival is like, what, 3 days? Less than that even? Lilith Fair tours the US. To run a tour like that, there has to be corporate sponsorship, particularly at the level that they're running it and the number of artists there are. To pay for the venues alone it's expensive, not to mention all the other costs. Maybe some people don't like the idea of the corporate sponsorship, i can't say that I do much, but if not for the companies, the ticket prices would be astronomical... Lilith Fair has gotten press this year, and why shouldn't it? I don't believe that Sarah & co. went in to some big office and decided that *this* would be the tour that would help her become a big, big star. I think that the fact that she did personally (as well as other artists) suceed was inevitable. FTE did well without Lilith Fair, but not that great, right? The thing is, some people don't want to remember back to 4 or so years ago before this idea started and what the radio stations were like then. Yes they'd play Sarah or another artist, but only in between 10 male bands, if at all... Of course Lilith wasn't the first that we saw of female artists or that it began this whole thing, I mean, Joni Mitchell, Janis Joplin, Joan Baez, etc., were all around before, but that was a long time ago, and though their roots are still felt in music and music history today, I think it was time that something new did come along. The fact that when you turn on a radio now (ick. if you listen to the radio now) and hear blocks of Sheryl Crow, Shawn Colvin, Sarah McLachlan, and even Fiona Apple--could that have happened without Lilith Fair? The Indigo Girls, sadly, were *never* played on the radio here (with the exception of maybe one college station that has always played okay music, female or not) until Lilith Fair came around, same with Shawn Colvin, or even Sarah. Maybe these aren't the "folkiest" types of musicians, or they seem like more of a "sell out" or "trendier" than some of the other artists who perform at the Michigan festival, but why does that matter? I think what's important is their music, and I'm glad to finally see even a little bit of a change on the radio than what it was before. I'd much rather hear Sarah's "Adia" ten times than hearing Matchbox 20 or Tonic's disposable, angst-ridden songs. Those are just two examples, but, do you see what I mean? Lilith Fair did take chances on their bill--Lhaso, Yungchen Lhamo, and even Sinead O'Conner are examples of those chances that they took. Sarah was recently (like, today, I think) on Much Music while they broadcast live from Lilith Fair and interviewed by a VJ who asked her about all of the negative press, etc., that the tour is getting this year. (And Sarah, to me, is the one who takes the most flak for all of this...) I believe she shook her head and said she didn't even want to address it anymore. You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't ..... I'm sorry, but I think that people who are so angrily criticizing this fair should think about it from *all* perspectives. What do you think it takes to organize and promote a festival of *this* stature? There are good reasons, I think, behind some of the decisions that are made... maybe they don't please *Everyone*, but what does anyway? At the very least, the heart of this tour isn't about the press, or the money, or the corporations--at the very least it's getting the *music* out there. People are being exposed to new music--and it *does* have diversity. From Dar Williams to Lhaso to Author de Lucie to Suzanne Vega--I see diversity there and that's only 4 artists. Women are being encouraged in new ways. I, if not for some of the artists I discovered and knowing that maybe it *is* possible for me to do this, would not have started to write songs and think for a second that maybe I could succeed at doing something I was already okay at, but hadn't had much of an example before. Maybe the Michigan Womyn's festival *has* been around a long time, but it never reached *me* and I don't think it reached many people that it could have... I think it's cool that it's stayed small and it hasn't "sold out" or whatever, but again, i think it's much different from Lilith Fair. Say what you will about the tour. I find it funny that things that do well after awhile are always subjected to the term "sell out", even if they start out with a lot of doubt. I understand some of the negatives, and I don't know still what I really think about the whole issue of having men involved, etc. I don't know. Anyway, i never thought this would turn in to such a big thing on the list, but I have to say again that it's been interesting reading other people's opinions of everything. Hope I haven't offended anyone so far... jessica n. weiser / 00jnweiser@bsuvc.bsu.edu / http://adam.nettfriends.com/Jess "i'm stained all through my insides" - e.g. ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V4 #273 **************************