From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V4 #23 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Thursday, January 22 1998 Volume 04 : Number 023 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Pronounciation Problem ["Robert I. Stewart" ] Re: this week's new releases [Mel ] Re: The Righteous Reader, 1/19/98 [nightwol@dircon.co.uk (Steve Fagg)] Re: this week's new releases [nightwol@dircon.co.uk (Steve Fagg)] Re: Pronounciation Problem ["Neil K. Guy" ] Re: Pronounciation Problem [Riphug ] Re: The Grammys, commercial perception [jjh969@juno.com] Re: The Righteous Reader, 1/19/98 [Magenta <4dm@qlink.queensu.ca>] re: Victoria Williams, [Magenta <4dm@qlink.queensu.ca>] any updates on Mary Fahl? [Riphug ] Re: this week's new releases ["Joseph S. Zitt" ] Re: Pronounciation Problem [Magenta <4dm@qlink.queensu.ca>] re: Grammys [Magenta <4dm@qlink.queensu.ca>] Re: Pronounciation Problem ["Joseph S. Zitt" ] Loreena McKennitt on Headline News [rjk1@cs.wustl.edu (Bob Kollmeyer)] Returning to the fold [David Dixon ] Re: Returning to the fold [Neal Copperman ] Re: this week's new releases [Neal Copperman ] Re: this week's new releases ["J. Wermont" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:07:40 -0000 From: "Robert I. Stewart" Subject: Pronounciation Problem Can anyone tell me which is the no-doubt, 100% correct way to pronounce Lisa Loeb's surname? Our local radio station has come up with 4 different ways so far! And the choices are: a) Lobe (as in ear lobe) b) Lube (to rhyme with boob) c) Leeb (to rhyme with dweeb) d) Loo-eeb (as in Louise) e) all of the above f) none of the above Robert Robert Stewart (email: csaris@upe.ac.za http://www.cs.upe.ac.za/csaris) Department of Computer Science and Information Systems University of Port Elizabeth South Africa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 03:40:07 -0500 From: Mel Subject: Re: this week's new releases On Tues, 20 Jan 1998, Neal Copperman wrote: (re: Sonia of disappear fear) > The last album contained those gushing quotes about Sonia being the > Dylan of this generation, and this album contains at least three > nauseatingly glowing and overstated endorsements. I hope this is not > a trend for future packaging! Plus it just looked really sappy, > though I'd welcome a return to more emotional and less political > content in her music, since I think the former was always a strength, > and the latter, while a passion, always seemed pretty simple (minded) > and overstated. > > So there you go, a bad review of an album I haven't heard a single > track off of. With all due respect... This isn't an album review. It "[seems a] pretty simple (minded) and overstated" CD cover review. Sonia has always written and performed political songs since the early days... always full of both strength and passion. - -- -- Mel [aka: Mel ] "I love to embrace the chaos of it all." - Ani DiFranco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:50:24 +0000 (GMT) From: nightwol@dircon.co.uk (Steve Fagg) Subject: Re: The Righteous Reader, 1/19/98 Valerie Nozick wrote: > My point is that the correlation between commercial and untalented > is non-existent now, and, I'd argue that that has been the case > throughout most of the history of pop. I hate to see people writing > off an artist as selling out and/or untalented, just because they've > caught the ears of millions more listeners than an obscure > artist. Hell, something made them popular -- and while it's easiest > to say that it was image, that's just not enough. A Celine Dion, > even though I may not like her, demands respect, because of a talent > based on a beautiful voice and an ability to appeal to millions of > people. Her strengths are just *different* from Ani DiFranco's -- > not any more or less valid. Nicely put, Valerie! Neither, in my view, is obscurity any indicator of talent or integrity. TTFN Steve n.p. "Revolver" by that desparately untalented mob from my formative years n.r. "In the Beginning" John Cribbin - -- Steve Fagg (nightwol@dircon.co.uk) http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/1313/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:52:39 +0000 (GMT) From: nightwol@dircon.co.uk (Steve Fagg) Subject: Re: this week's new releases meredith wrote: > Since I think I inadvertently deleted something of general interest last > week (the debut solo album by Sonia of Disappear Fear -- I can't figure out > why it wasn't on the list, so I must have accidentally toasted it), I'm > just going to send the entire list from now on. It shouldn't be too big at > a pop. and then later down the list we find... > > - RALPH MCTELL - Sand in Your Shoes (Red House) I don't know if this would have made the cut under the old scheme, but I'm really pleased to see mention of it here. I didn't know a new CD was due out! > > - ROBERT WYATT - Shleep (Thirsty Ear) And could this be *THE* Robert (Matching Mole) Wyatt of blessed memory??? TTFN Steve n.p. Shubert: Symphony No. 4 - COE/Harnoncourt n.r. John Gribbin: In the Beginning - -- Steve Fagg (nightwol@dircon.co.uk) http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/1313/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 04:26:37 -0800 From: "Neil K. Guy" Subject: Re: Pronounciation Problem At 9:07 AM +0000 1/21/98, Robert I. Stewart wrote: > Can anyone tell me which is the no-doubt, 100% correct way to > pronounce Lisa Loeb's surname? All I can say is I've never heard it pronounced any way other than "lobe". That includes people at werk who talk with her management, fwiw. - Neil K. - -- t e l a computer consulting + design * Vancouver, BC, Canada phone: (604) 254-1002 * email: tela@tela.bc.ca web: http://www.tela.bc.ca/tela/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:26:21 EST From: Riphug Subject: Re: Pronounciation Problem In a message dated 1/21/98 2:56:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, csaris@upe.ac.za writes: << Can anyone tell me which is the no-doubt, 100% correct way to pronounce Lisa Loeb's surname? >> Didja ever hear about a famous trial from the '30's? The bad guys by the name of Leopold and Loeb? Stick with *ear lobe* as your guide..... Jill :D ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:47:00 -0500 From: jjh969@juno.com Subject: Re: The Grammys, commercial perception Wasn't KaTe nominated one year for something ? On Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:22:41 -0800 (PST) Temperance writes: >I just wanted to say thanks to Valerie for voicing articulately things >I've been thinking the past few years, especially in reading responses >different people have to more famous, perceived "commercial" artists. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:16:58 -0500 (EST) From: Magenta <4dm@qlink.queensu.ca> Subject: Re: The Righteous Reader, 1/19/98 > What cynicism! I plead guilty on that charge. I used to watch Grammys every year, despite having to wait through those endless announcements of classical categories, and atrocities such as Tony Bennett's Unplugged album winning Album of the Year. I don't think Grammys deserve very much respect, at least based on my own criteria -- Alanis Morissette's immature Jagged Little Pill (with atrocious lyrics, though admittedly some promise in melodies and hooks) for Album of the Year? No awards ever given to Led Zeppelin? Don McLean's revolutionary "American Pie" losing out on all categories in 1971? I can only call about every one in 10 Grammy winners truly worthy: Bonnie Raitt, The Eagles (just for "Hotel California" as Record of the Year 1976), Quincy Jones. In the past few years, the awards have either gone to ultra-conservative, musically impact-less choices such as Bennett or commercial, unprogressive sap like Celine Dion. > dominated by people like Michael Jackson, Madonna and other mega-selling acts, and > influential artists like REM and U2 weren't even acknowledged? Acknowledgement doesn't translate into automatic artistic advancement, though. True, better a nomination than nothing at all, but how did R.E.M.'s Automatic for the People miss an Album of the Year award? Just to get the facts straight, Madonna was *never* a Grammy favourite -- even she was too challenging for the NARAS. Michael Jackson, in his heyday, was actually quite influential and artistically interesting, to give him credit. But Tony Bennett, Alanis Morissette and Celine Dion, and nomination of Jewel almost TWO YEARS after her album came out -- colour me unimpressed. > As an aside (and I'm sure this will provoke a debate), what exactly makes Meredith > Brooks more "commercial" (used by you in a very negative context) than Fiona Apple > or, say, a Sarah McLachlan? It is true that this is a very fine line we're treading. Perhaps I should rephrase -- Meredith Brooks breaks very little new ground. Fiona Apple writes bolder songs and delves into a less avidly mined area (jazz, blues, torch song) than most mainstream (read: best selling) artists. As for Sarah McLachlan, I've never been in love with her music, but her organization of Lilith Fair may be a sign that she is doing more for music than Brooks. I loved the song "Bitch", but Brooks' album was quite flawed especially in the singing and lyrical departments. So perhaps my argument should be that "Meredith Brooks had less of a distinctive influence on music than Fiona Apple". > It's not in the record sales -- Sarah has had more hits > than one-hit wonder Brooks. I hold a different opinion here -- true that Brooks has only had one album; McLachlan had two platinum ones. But in the singles department, I don't think McLachlan has had a Top-Ten single in the U.S. yet; Brooks' "Bitch" hit #2, kept down only by (if I remember correctly) Puff Daddy and Faith Evans' "I'll Be Missing You". > It's not in the image -- Fiona Apple plays far more to > the mainstream MTV audience with her writhing, barely-clad antics in "Criminal". Apt observation -- Apple herself admitted to "exploiting herself" in that video. But musically, Fiona Apple has a little more to offer in the lyrics department -- "Sleep to Dream" was a great lyric, a well timed paean to independence. "Bitch", though interesting verbally, lacks focus. And when we compare the intellectual value of Blurring the Edges with that of Tidal, I would give the advantage to Apple if I had to be the ref. > must be song-writing ability, then. Oh wait, Jewel, the celebrated song-writer, is > the biggest breakthrough artist commercially this year. And it took her close to two years of toiling to do it. Jewel is not perfect, either -- she can write some extremely unhoned songs at times. > My point is that the > correlation between commercial and untalented is non-existent now It never existed. When I say "commercial", I don't mean "untalented" -- marketing is actually a very great talent. Ani DiFranco's impact, I might say, is commercial -- she's defying the usual system and selling records in her own way. What I argue is that commerciality is *usually* the biggest factor in NARAS' nomination and awarding of artists, followed by conservatism. Cases: 1989 Record of the Year -- Phil Collins' "Another Day in Paradise" (definitely not a talentless song, but a well written pop anthem); 1996 Album of the Year -- Alanis Morissette's Jagged Little Pill, a 14-million-unit seller; 1997 Album of the Year -- Celine Dion's Falling into You, shifting close to eight million units; 1983 Album of the Year -- Michael Jackson's Thriller, the biggest-selling album of all time and "too big not to be recognized by the Academy", in the words of J. Randy Taraborelli; 1978 Album of the Year -- Fleetwood Mac's Rumours, up to that point the biggest-selling album by any group; 1970 Album of the Year -- Carole King's Tapestry, a consistent moneymaker...the list goes on. Then there is the Academy's liking for the old school: Quincy Jones' 1989 Back on the Block, though intriguing and featuring a host of R&B/rap talent, wasn't anything revolutionary, but won the 1990 Album of the Year; Tony Bennett's Unplugged was nostalgia incarnate -- another Album of the Year; Natalie Cole only did half the vocals on Unforgettable -- 1992 Album of the Year. > that that has been the case throughout most of the history of pop. I hate to see > people writing off an artist as selling out and/or untalented I don't. I don't attack artists for selling a lot -- who WOULDN'T want more people to hear his/her music! -- I attack the industry that cloaks its recognition of sales with a front of "artistic excellence". I point out artistic flaws in certain best-selling artists, but I don't dismiss these artists; I simply want to complicate the problem by saying that "They may not be the best, though Grammys may claim they are". Standards being subjective, the word "best" is of course an elusive one. However, seeing the disturbing trends in Grammy history where a 15-million seller (if not a greatest-hits set) is practically guaranteed an award, I wish to cast doubt on NARAS' claim that the Grammys are about "artistic excellence". > So where the Academy is improving, IMO, is in acknowledging many types of music in > its nominations. In the nominations -- no arguments, though the Academy's basis may still be on sales (if Smashing Pumpkins didn't move six million times two CDs worth of album sales, would it have had a chance at Album of the Year?), and the nominations reflect more public buying of records than art. The fact is that the most artistically challenging nominees tend to lose out to middle-of-the-road, massively selling artists in the end, in terms of actually DECIDING on the winner. It isn't my intent to start a shouting match (and I don't believe we have lapsed into that, either) -- I wish to merely throw my skepticism into the mix when it comes to discussing modern music and musical institutions. I.D. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:24:57 -0500 (EST) From: Magenta <4dm@qlink.queensu.ca> Subject: re: Victoria Williams, Just to let everyone know I don't always post on the deficiencies of the Grammy Awards: Thanks to everyone who recommended the new Victoria Williams. It is excellent -- something of a coming of age for Vic, it seems; her voice is growing on me. Plus -- the severely underrated Wendy Melvoin and Lisa Coleman guest-star on several tracks. I.D. _________________________________________________ ################################################# @|\ /|@ @|\ "The Lord Almighty be impressed /|@ @|\ Hurry up lift up your dress /|@ @|\ My hair is on the kitchen wall" /|@ @|\ "On a day I found /|@ @|\ That you were the one that kissed my eyes /|@ @|\ And you smashed this truth /|@ @|\ Up and down, up and down" /|@ @|\ - Shelleyan Orphan /|@ @|\ /|@ ################################################# - ------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:25:35 EST From: Riphug Subject: any updates on Mary Fahl? I'm on a mission..... I was recently reminded of the sad fact that Sony dropped October Project after their second album.....and I'm so disappointed. :( I understand that OP lead singer, Mary Fahl, was working last spring with Bob "somebody" (sorry, I forgot his name) on a new CD of her own. According to the information I read, the producer of this album is the same producer for Grey Eye Glances (and aren't there some GEG connections here on ecto?). Anyway, I would love to buy anything at all with Mary's voice on it......so any help or information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Jill :D ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:48:49 -0600 (CST) From: "Joseph S. Zitt" Subject: Re: this week's new releases On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, Steve Fagg wrote: > > > - ROBERT WYATT - Shleep (Thirsty Ear) > > And could this be *THE* Robert (Matching Mole) Wyatt of blessed > memory??? Yes, indeed: alive and well and working with Eno again! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:11:58 -0500 (EST) From: Magenta <4dm@qlink.queensu.ca> Subject: Re: Pronounciation Problem > a) Lobe (as in ear lobe) > b) Lube (to rhyme with boob) > c) Leeb (to rhyme with dweeb) > d) Loo-eeb (as in Louise) > e) all of the above > f) none of the above Don't know what she calls herself, but I think the generally agreed choice is a). However, the roots of her name may be Nordic or German, so to your list of candidates, maybe "L=F6b" (rhyming with "blurb") should be added. = I think she calls herself "[Lobe]", however. I.D. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:32:03 -0500 (EST) From: Magenta <4dm@qlink.queensu.ca> Subject: re: Grammys Most of the supporting messages on Valerie's point are well founded. In the end, I believe we are actually of the same opinion -- popular opinion is not necessarily inept; sales do not equate incompetence; the purse and the palette are not intrinsic enemies. I still stand by my assertion that Grammy decisions are very much influenced by sales and, to add to my original arguments, politics. When commenting on Michael Jackson's unprecedented Grammy sweep (eight awards), J. Randy Taraborelli did a statistical tally of historical Grammy winners and discovered that CBS (now Sony) artists had the majority. Though not quite as true now, it is still notable that record executives decide who will run in the races, and those tend to be the cash cows (ditto for the Academy Awards/Oscars, which have the potential of multiplying a film's profits several times). I.D. P.S. Despite my obsession with facts, I also got one fact wrong -- Smashing Pumpkins was nominated for Record of the Year, not Album of the Year. The point is the same, however -- Hazel, for instance, would never have a chance at Record of the Year (though I'm not necessarily saying it should). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:07:52 -0600 (CST) From: "Joseph S. Zitt" Subject: Re: Pronounciation Problem On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, Magenta wrote: >=20 > > a) Lobe (as in ear lobe) > > b) Lube (to rhyme with boob) > > c) Leeb (to rhyme with dweeb) > > d) Loo-eeb (as in Louise) > > e) all of the above > > f) none of the above >=20 > Don't know what she calls herself, but I think the generally agreed choic= e > is a). However, the roots of her name may be Nordic or German, so to you= r > list of candidates, maybe "L=F6b" (rhyming with "blurb") should be added.= I > think she calls herself "[Lobe]", however. I've also heard it pronounce "Labe" (to rhyme with babe) by Yiddish speakers. But yeah, I think she's "[Lobe]". ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:54:55 -0600 From: rjk1@cs.wustl.edu (Bob Kollmeyer) Subject: Loreena McKennitt on Headline News Just caught a report on Headline News Network (a US cable network that summarizes news, cycling through top news stories every 30 minutes and filling the last 10 minutes or so of every half hour with sports, weather and an entertainment feature) on Loreena and her new-found success. Very well done, IMHO. My experience has been that they repeat the entertainment stories a few times, often at 1-hour intervals, so there's a pretty good chance it will be on again, most likely at 25 after the hour (but checking at 55 after as well would probably be wise). Personally, I still can't get over walking by a radio tuned to a AAA station and hearing Mummers' Dance... Glad I stick to the left of the dial, though, or I'm sure I'd be sick of it by now. ;) To tie this whole thing in to the Grammy/popularity issue - the world of "hit radio" has gradually been lapping onto beach we call ecto over the past few years, much more strongly in the last year or so. And as radio is like to do, high tide will be reached and the radio waves will continue their never-ending cycle, ebbing from ecto to some other beach somewhere. If we aren't at high tide yet, we're probably close and Lilith '99 (if there is such a thing) will probably be a disappointment to promoters. Be happy for those who've managed to frolic in the sea while the tide is in and enjoy the easier access to the music (you mean it's actually in stock!? I don't have to special order?!? Katell Keineg is in Columbia House Music Club's catalog!?!?). And just pray that they keep one foot in the sand and when the tide goes out, they don't get sucked out with it, chasing radio rather than their muse. bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:53:49 +0100 From: David Dixon Subject: Returning to the fold Hi ectoids, OK, I'm finally settled here in lovely (albeit wet) Holland, ready to weather the onslaught of ectoesque emails once again. :) Dave's Belated Best of 97: Unfortunately, most of my CD's are still at my parents' house in the States, but I brought all the important ones with me, namely: Babe the Blue Ox, _People_: OK, not technically a 97 release, but it takes time for music to diffuse between coasts sometimes. Perfect, happy, complex, groovy pop. I expect many more great things from this band in the future, assuming they don't implode a la Tribe. Radiohead, _OK Computer_: Years from now, people will look at this album's influence much as we do with _Dark Side of the Moon_ now. Never before has anguish been so beautiful. Brilliant. Red House Painters, _Songs For A Blue Guitar_: (also a 96 release) Should be subtitled, "Mark Kozelek Learns How To Deal With Life". The cover of The Cars' "All Mixed Up" is itself worth the price of the CD. I usually skip over "Make Like Paper" and "Silly Love Songs" though. Dots Will Echo, _Get Your Hands Off My Modem, You Weasel!_: Any year that brings a new DWE album is a good year. Great music for shaking those rain-soaked blues, and it's got a heartbreaking Erik Satie-inflected cover of a certain popular TV show's theme as a bonus track. What else can you ask for? In memory of those who were taken from us too soon: Jeff Buckley, Michael Hedges, and Simon Jeffes. D^2 ====================================================================== David Dixon (D^2) dixon@qt.tn.tudelft.nl Department of Applied Physics, Delft University of Technology This week's bon mot: "Everything is linear to first order." ====================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:45:52 -0500 (EST) From: Neal Copperman Subject: Re: Returning to the fold On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, David Dixon wrote: > In memory of those who were taken from us too soon: Jeff Buckley, Michael > Hedges, and Simon Jeffes. Welcome back D^2. Hope life is treating you well in Holland. I must have missed the news somewhere, but what happened to Simon Jeffes? Neal np: Tribe - Abort ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:05:43 -0500 (EST) From: Neal Copperman Subject: Re: this week's new releases On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, Mel wrote: > With all due respect... This isn't an album review. It "[seems a] pretty > simple (minded) and overstated" CD cover review. Fair enough... it was a visceral response to the album packaging. Sorry if anyone mistook it for an actual music review. > > though I'd welcome a return to more emotional and less political > > content in her music, since I think the former was always a strength, > > and the latter, while a passion, always seemed pretty simple (minded) > > and overstated. > Sonia has always written and performed political songs since the early > days... always full of both strength and passion. I'm familiar with the history and catolog of disappear fear. I have all the albums, in original and Philo/Rounder re-releases, as well as the cassette's that came out in the absence of CD's, and I even had the occasion to hear Sonia's pre-df band. Sonia always performs everything with passion. What has moved me and drawn me to the band has been how affecting her musings on relationships have been. "Box of Tissues" and "Postcard From Texas" strike me as the most compelling and powerful songs in their catalog. I don't think they rise to those heights too often, but I still feel that tingling at scattered moments in other songs. On the other hand, most of her purely political songs carry little weight with me. From my brief time on the df list (about 5 years ago), I was surprised to learn that "Washington Work Song" consistantly was listed as people's favorite df song. It, and other songs like it, are also quite popular in concert, and though I've found them passionately performed and sometimes quite catchy and melodic, I've never found any of them moving or inspirational. If nothing conflicts on my schedule, perhaps I'll try to see Sonia at the 8X10 Club on SUnday, and then I can actually comment on her latest music. Neal np: holiday sampler (track - In The Wings - Tara McLean) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:00:32 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Wermont" Subject: Re: this week's new releases Neal Copperman wrote (about Disappear Fear): > On the other hand, most of her purely political songs carry little weight > with me. From my brief time on the df list (about 5 years ago), I was > surprised to learn that "Washington Work Song" consistantly was listed as > people's favorite df song. It, and other songs like it, are also quite > popular in concert, and though I've found them passionately performed and > sometimes quite catchy and melodic, I've never found any of them moving > or inspirational. Maybe this says more about you than about Sonia's music itself. I don't mean anything bad by that, btw - it just sounds like you aren't moved by songs that have a political message, in the same way that you are moved by personal revelations, insights, or portraits of people or situations, in music. I enjoy both, so I can be quite moved by a good political song, although bad political music doesn't do much for me. But then again, bad personal songs don't thrill me, either. Joyce ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V4 #23 *************************