From: owner-ecto-digest To: ecto-digest@ns2.rutgers.edu Subject: ecto-digest V2 #223 Reply-To: ecto@nsmx.rutgers.edu Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Wednesday, 13 September 1995 Volume 02 : Number 223 The Ecto digest is now being generated automatically. Please send problems and questions to: ecto-owner@nsmx.rutgers.edu. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dan Stark Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 23:09:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Morrisette (was: songs that make me cry) Richard Holmes wrote: > ->This reminded me that I cried more than once while singing Alanis > ->Morisette's song "you oughtta know". Bet you didn't tihnk it was > ->deep. :) heh. ... > The guy must have racked up some serious karma (or whatever you ^^^^^^^ John from the TV show Full House by the way. Sorry, the last name escapes me since I don't watch the show, but if anyone who does seems to know who that is. THE NEW ADDRESS HERE NOW WORKS! All of my mail was interrupted for two days...it was even down for a day on the new address. Hope I didn't miss much. /:(. Dan - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- DAN STARK ***NOTE*** dstark@freenet.npiec.on.ca ~\\|//~ NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada -(o o)- NOW IN EFFECT! - --------------------------------------------o000o--(_)--o000o---------------- ------------------------------ From: Neile Graham Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 20:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: San Francisco Cool Event alert In the issue of MS that I got today them have a brief mention of an event I would LOVE to see, even though I'm not certain what it entails. There's a photography, and the write up says: "Ecology-minded choreographer Kathryn Roszak collaborates with indigenous Scandinavian singer/composer Mari Boin for DEEP NORTH. In San Francisco September 29 and 30--call (415) 978-ARTS for information. I would guess she's dancing to Mari Boine's music, which is incredible and has been talked about quite a bit on ecto. She's Sami (formerly described as Lapp) from the north of Finland. She has one album readily available from Realworld under the name of Mari Boine Persen (she dropped the last name when she divorced). Her music is stunning. Someone please go and tell me what I missed. - --Neile neile@u.washington.edu ------------------------------ From: Neal Copperman Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 00:16:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: The Blue Nile Grace Pool also cover "Stay" on their self-titled 1988 debut. (The album doesn't generally excite me that much, though in the right mood, some of the songs are quite attractive. Bought it for the single "Awake with the Rain", which I still really like.) Neal ------------------------------ From: ariel_b@pipeline.com (Ariel Brennan) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 00:49:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Jewel I HATE it when I forget to change the "To" line to send to Ecto!! Slap me with a splintered ruler. Especially because I do it an awful lot; still getting used to this software. On Sep 12, 1995 20:08:52, 'Neile Graham ' wrote: >People might get the impression of naivete about Jewel from _Pieces of You_ >(though "Daddy" and "Hey Little Sister" are exceptions) but I think the naive >songs are exceptions in Jewel's work. Actually, I find Daddy to be one of the worse, naivete wise. Come to think of it, so's "Little Sister". She seems to have this naive idea that we can all just "feed our souls" and make everything okay again. And that IS what I call naive. Not to mention "I'm Sensitive". Those lines about cynics, and being told we're bad; those are pretty bloody naive. ;) The worst thing is, she says these preachy, half-tripe sentiments and manages to come off like she's God's spokeswoman handing down truths from up high. It really gets under my skin sometimes. >When I first heard the Innerchange tape >I assumed Jewel was in her thirties or so, simply because of the sophistication >and wit of her lyrics, and of the evidence of knowledge about human nature they >show. Actually, I find her to have pretty much NO knowledge of human nature. "What we call human nature is, in actuality, human habit" has to be the most ridiculous statement about people I've ever heard. People are pretty biology/instinct driven, and that is, by definition, nature. >And once you've heard "Nicotine Love" you'll see how powerful and gutsy >she can be. I have no doubt that she can be powerful ("Foolish Games" is one of the most powerful songs I've ever heard), but gutsy and powerful doesn't equal mature, and I see basically no maturity in her work. >I wouldn't say the anger Alanis shows is exactly maturity--to me it's the anger >of a young person "You Oughtta Know" shows--hurt and spiteful. Not that >there's anything wrong with that, it's just something different from maturity. >I guess I would contrast her anger with Marianne Faithfull's in "Why'd Ya Do >it?" I didn't say her anger was maturity, I said her *album* showed maturity; YOK is only one of her songs. Alanis' maturity and wisdom beyond her years goes beyond just anger, and far beyond one song. EVERY song shows a degree of maturity, whether it be satisfied maturity, angry maturity, wise maturity, or depressed maturity, whatever. As for YOK being the anger of a young person, my mother identifies with every sentiment in the song due to a relationship when she was pushing 40. So... ;> - -Ariel ------------------------------ From: lakrahn@iw.net (Laurel Krahn) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 00:42:21 -0500 Subject: another cool SF event (Gaiman/FlashGirls) Was going to post this press release right after it was posted, but forgot. It's a terrific cause, the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund... And a terrific show. Neil Gaiman fans and non-fans will have a ball... I guarantee it. When Neil reads his work, he puts his all into it. (BTW, a CD of Neil reading his work is available from Dreamhaven Press/Books...) Flash Girls will also be appearing with Neil at this special show in San Francisco. On October 31st... Well, you can read the press release for yourself. :) - laurel - --- > Press Release > COMIC BOOK LEGAL DEFENSE FUND > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > August 26, 1995 > > NEIL GAIMAN TAKES STAGE TO FIGHT CENSORSHIP IN SPECIAL HALLOWEEN EVENT > > > On Tuesday, October 31, 1995, at the Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco, > from 8 to 11 p.m., Neil Gaiman (author of _Sandman_, _Good Omens_, _Mr. > Punch_, _Violent Cases_) will continue his Guardian Angel Tour with dramatic > and eloquent readings from his books _Angels and Visitations_ and _Snow, > Glass, Apples_ as well as other stories as a part of his ongoing commitment > to raise money and awareness for the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund's fight > against censorship in the comics industry. Dave Sim, creator of _Cerebus_ > and an outspoken proponent of free speech, will host the night's events. In > addition, Paul Mavrides, artist of the _Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers_, will > address the crowd about his case against the California Board of > Equalization, on whether the original page of comic book artwork has the > same literary status as an author's manuscript. All proceeds will benefit > the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund, a non-profit, tax exempt organization > funding the legal support of comic book professionals that are forced to > defend their first amendment rights in the courts. The CBLDF is currently > supporting the legal defense of six comic book related cases throughout the > United States and the proceeds from this event are necessary to continue the > fight against censorship. > > In addition to the spoken-word events, Gaiman will be joined by > award-winning Minneapolis-based gothic folk-duo, The Flash Girls, in a rare > San Francisco appearance. They will preform songs with lyrics written by > Gaiman, as well as other originals. > > This is the fifth stop on Gaiman's Guardian Angel Reading Tour, which has > raised $15,000 so far for the CBLDF. > > Gaiman will be coming to San Francisco from the UK, where he will be > working on his new BBC television series, _Neverwhere_, due to start filming > in January. Advance telephone interviews with Neil about the event may be > possible. This event is Gaiman's last US appearance for 1995. > > Ticket prices to the benefit reading are $35, $25, $20, $15, and $12. > Tickets are available through BASS tickets by calling (510) 762-BASS, or at > select area comic book shops. > > The Palace of Fine Arts, located at Bay & Lyon St. in San Francisco, is a > historical San Francisco Landmark, and home to the famed science museum, > the Exploratorium. The theater itself holds only a thousand people, and > tickets are expected to sell briskly. There may be a small number of > tickets at the door, but attendees are encouraged to advance purchase by > contacting BASS tickets, an experienced ticket broker, who will mail the > tickets to your door. > > Front row tickets may be purchased from the following Bay Area retailers: > > Comix Experience, San Francisco, (415) 863-9258 > Comic Relief, Berkeley, (510) 843-5002 > Comics & Da Kind, San Francisco, (415) 753-3037 > Dr. Comics & Mr. Games, Oakland, (510) 601-1371 > Flying Colors, Concord, (510) 825-5410 > Funny Papers, San Francisco, (415) 752-1914 > Lee's Comics, Palo Alto, (415) 493-3957 > > In addition to the evening's festivities, Guardian Angel Tour-only > merchandise, such as the commemorative chapbook, _Snow, Glass, Apples_, tour > posters, _Warning: Contains Language_ (a double compact disk of Gaiman > readings), as well as signed memorabilia, will be available at the event. > > Thanks to generous donations by Dark Horse Comics, Diamond Comics > Distributors, Capital City Distribution, and the San Francisco Bay > Guardian, all proceeds from this event will directly benefit the CBLDF. > > For more information please contact: > > Susan Alston, CBLDF Executive Director > 1-800-992-2533 > > or > Brian Hibbs, local coordinator > (415) 863-9258 Laurel (lakrahn@imho.net) Krahn, Webspinner Virtual Home: http://www.iw.net/~lakrahn/index.html Seeking webmaster, internet training/writing work... signal-to-noise (Flash Girls mailing list) is online again... ------------------------------ From: gregdunn@indy.net (Greg Dunn) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 01:25:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Jewel >Actually, I find Daddy to be one of the worse, naivete wise. Come to think >of it, so's "Little Sister". She seems to have this naive idea that we can >all just "feed our souls" and make everything okay again. And that IS what >I call naive. Not to mention "I'm Sensitive". Those lines about cynics, and >being told we're bad; those are pretty bloody naive. ;) Sorry; have to put in my $0.02US here :) Look carefully at the lyrics and the intentionally prissy way they're sung (in "I'm Sensitive"); She's tongue-in-cheek here, pointing out how things could be in a perfect world, not suggesting that life's problems are easy to solve. I have seen enough examples of people whose self-esteem has been ruined by constant verbal and physical abuse to understand what she's saying here. You tell someone they're inadequate, worthless, or substandard -- they'll start to accept it. Jewel is a perfect example of someone who has been encouraged from an early age to stand up and speak her mind; can we condemn her premises without being cynics ourselves? :) >The worst thing is, she says these preachy, half-tripe sentiments and >manages to come off like she's God's spokeswoman handing down truths from >up high. It really gets under my skin sometimes. I think it's more an example of someone speaking out about things she's seen firsthand. My daughter reads her intent clearly, having seen examples of things like "Daddy" and "Pieces of You" in her own school. Jewel is daring to call some of the hypocrites on their own ground; if she's a bit idealistic, what of it? I for one would like to see more people with positive outlooks and constructive criticism, even if it tends towrd the naive or simplistic; the insight of recognizing the root of a problem is often a good start in itself, and we have to see it before we can deal with it... >"What we call human nature is, in actuality, human habit" has to be the >most ridiculous statement about people I've ever heard. People are pretty >biology/instinct driven, and that is, by definition, nature. Racism? Homophobia? Child abuse? Natural? I don't see how these traits are inherent genetic dispositions. They're habitual and often learned characteristics which are very anti-survival. I don't accept that the tendency of humans to fight and mistreat one another is wholly derived from natural selection and biological drives. Most people learn hate and intolerance form others; they aren't born with it. These are the "human nature" items that Jewel is trying to highlight, IMHO. I won't dispute the judgement of Alanis's album as a mature work; she's written the songs to be angry and outspoken, and she captures the feel perfectly. They're highly emotionally charged, though, and invoke similarly inclined emotions in the listener. Alanis isn't so much relating as railing, here, and that's OK by me. It's a great listening experience, but not a wise and learned person sharing life's truths with the unwashed. :) :) I hope she continues to channel that energy into more great pop tunes; I'll buy them. - -- | Greg Dunn | "Information is not knowledge; | | GregDunn@aol.com | knowledge is not wisdom; | | gregdunn@indy.net | wisdom is not truth." | | Greg@gdunn.nawc-ad-indy.navy.mil | -- Frank Zappa | ------------------------------ From: Dirk Kastens Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 08:46:47 +0200 (DFT) Subject: Re: Music vs. Lyrics again On Tue, 12 Sep 1995 VNozick@tribune.com wrote: > First of all, this is one of the most interesting threads on ecto in a long > time. And there's no shortage of interesting threads on ecto. :) Agreed :-) > A question for those of us who are music people. Can you stand dancing to > industrial music? (all beat, few, if any lyrics. The ones that exist are inane, > IMO). I'm a lyrics person, and I've found that it's impossible for me to dance > to any song I can't sing along to. It's a quirk, I know...but I just can't do > it. And I love to dance. Industrial dance music is the only music I can dance to, because it's made for dancing. There are no lyrics that "disturb" me and the beat is straightforward. If there's a good DJ he's mixing one song into the other without any break and the tempo and complexity of the tracks increase. I hate it if each song is different from the other, because you always have to stop and listen "What comes next?". Dancemusic or techno or house is like a drug that you can't escape from. And if the dancefloor is full of fog and the strobo lights are on you're in another world. Sometimes I need this, but I don't do it very often. Dirk Kastens _______________Dirk.Kastens@rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE Universitaet Osnabrueck Phone: +49/541/969-2347 Rechenzentrum Fax: +49/541/969-2470 Albrechtstr. 28 49069 Osnabrueck Germany ------------------------------ From: Dirk Kastens Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 09:32:21 +0200 (DFT) Subject: Re: those emotionally charged songs... On Tue, 12 Sep 1995, Damon Harper wrote: > dirk kastens said: > > >Incidentally, I've just bought the remastered version of TLLDOB and have > > remastered? are we simply talking cd versus vinyl here? :) > i started with the cd.... in fact, i only really have cds in my music > collection. i such a young'un :P No, they've remastered the whole Genesis back catalogue and re-released the CDs with the original cover art. Two studio engineers from England have done the job using state-of-the-art equipment. The result is amazing. I've bought all CDs from Trespass to Wind & Wuthering (they were sold at half the price). There was an interview with these two guys in the German Keys magazine which was very interesting. Dirk Kastens _______________Dirk.Kastens@rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE Universitaet Osnabrueck Phone: +49/541/969-2347 Rechenzentrum Fax: +49/541/969-2470 Albrechtstr. 28 49069 Osnabrueck Germany ------------------------------ From: stevev@greylady.uoregon.edu (Steve VanDevender) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 95 01:23:34 PDT Subject: toons! beach house tiki god writes: > "Matt Bittner" sez: > >Anybody else looking forward to the > >premier of "Pinky & the Brain" this Sunday? > > i was looking forward to it, as i had heard tons of great things about > them from many another friend and had not yet seen them on animanics > (or wherver it is that they come from). > > alas, i was kinda disappointed. fortunately, so were said friends, for > pretty much the same reasons: a pretty dull plot and characters that > staled after 10 minutes. i suspect that in short doses, which i > understand is the accustommed delivery method in their native land, > they would be great. > > woj What network is this show running on? I heard nothing whatsoever about it until Matt's message, which wasn't particularly helpful in providing information about how to find out when and where it would be on. I'd have to agree than Pinky and the Brain are probably best in small doses, much like Itchy and Scratchy. But I'd at least like to see in person if the show is disappointing. ------------------------------ From: Ian Young Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 20:31:17 +0100 Subject: Musical Musing and Sniffles Well, talk about bringing the lurkers out of the woodwork! This music and lyrics (I refuse to say versus) thread certainly seems to have caught people's imagination. I've been trying to work out how I listen to music. I'm having trouble beyond a rather fatuous statement like: different things grab me depending on what I'm listening to and what mood I'm in. Certainly lyrics play a role, but I'm not sure if they're the triggering factor... I suspect they must play a major factor, if I look back over my record collection, there's a distinct preponderance of what I would regard as lyrically strong albums. I'd say that as often as it's the lyrics, it's the vocal texture that attracts me (easy example, Mari Boine, I don't speak Sami), or again, the melody... rarely the rhythm alone then; I'm much more the singer than the dancer: I'll try singing along to something even if it's way outside my range (even Mari Boine!) -- I've come to the end of many an album wondering why I've gone all hoarse. [happy apple horse] Failing that, I'll whistle. Saturday lunchtime saw me walking through the small market town of Tenbury Wells in Shropshire, I'm sure most of the denizens thought I was a complete loony because I was listening to Steve Reich's New York Counterpoint (Recorded from the Radio 3 broadcast concert earlier this year, when City Life was (UK?) debuted) with Michael Collins playing solo clarinet (and himself playing the other 10 parts on tape). Anyway, I had that on my Walkman and I was whistling along, which is, of course, impossible. I hate to think what it sounded like to the people I passed; I'm glad I didn't have to listen to myself :-) Parenthetically, if anyone can tell me whether/where recordings of the Reich counterpoint pieces are available, it'd be much appreciated since, about an hour later, the tape fell out of the Walkman without me noticing so I haven't got it any more :-( Things that make me sniffle. Hmm... this is going to be a bit of a grab-bag as well; things as I remember them, leaving out any me-toos. Classical stuff, well, two pieces that probably aren't too surprising. Elgar: `Nimrod' from the Enigma Variations; the end where it's built up to ff and then suddenly, dizzyingly, drops away to pp. The reprieve of the cor anglais solo from Dvorak's `New World' symphony where it develops those sighing pauses in the phrasing. Bach, the 26th (27th?) variation from the Goldbergs: such utter desolation amid the almost mathematically inevitable procession; and the return to the aria, transformed by its travels through the 32 variations, particularly juxtaposed as it is to the joyous quod libet. (I suspect that some of Richard Powers' _The Goldbug Variations_ has rubbed of on me. And yes, despite the liberties he takes, I love the old Gould recording -- the 10th, which he dispatches in 36 seconds still leaves me open-mouthed and gasping.) Occasionally the way the six-part ricercar of the Musical Offering meshes together can bring tears to my eyes, it usually does something weird to my brain-state, makes me feel like I'm inside some precise clockwork mechanism of gear wheels and escapements. Other stuff. The Cowboy Junkies can leave me tearful: it's Margo's voice more than anything. I mean, The Last Spike is a sad song, undoubtedly, but the lyrics aren't too amazing... even so, when she sings it, it has a tendency to unstick me fairly thoroughly. The '82 Pink Floyd album _The Final Cut_ has, on the couple of occasions that I've heard it. Of course, it's supposed to; rage and frustration at the crushing stupidity of war. Now, the question people have been asking: do lyrics make me cry on their own? On first thought, yes, but on further consideration, I'm not so sure. On the occasions when I have cried reading lyrics, I can think of no occurrence where the song hasn't done it first. So for me it's more the memory of the way those lyrics are sung, embedded in the music... The closest thing I can think of to a lyric doing it is Furniture's _She Gets Out The Scrapbook_ -- it may or may not be incidental that this song has a lyric that reads almost like a prose monologue... but even there, it's also the way the increasing sense of desperation is mirrored in the vocal lines. Really I'm way too close to that song to know what I would have felt reading without hearing. You are allowed never to have heard of Furniture :-) I. - -- "So tell me it means nothing to me now, and tell me I don't have to think about you. Tell me the next will wash out the last. Tell me. But don't think I'll tell you it's true." ------------------------------ From: Markku Kolkka Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 13:11:05 +0300 Subject: Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?V=E4rttin=E4?= (was: hector zazou's "chansons des mers froides") At 19.21 12.9.95 -0400, woj wrote: >Damon Harper sez: >>also you >>didn't mention va:rttina, who sing on the opening track, and who, i know, >>are at least somewhat ectophilic. >somewhat? i think they're entirely ectophilic! >they started out as a huge folk ensemble and have slowly pared themselves >down to a trio of vocalists Actually there are four vocalists, but Sari Kaasinen dropped out of latest U.S. tour because of illness. There is a V=E4rttin=E4 WWW page at: http://personal.eunet.fi/pp/dighoe/vartbio.html, and there is a link to Digelius Music, a mail order record shop selling Finnish and Scandinavian music (including the two first V=E4rttin=E4 albums) and supporting musicians. at the same time, >they have blended their traditional finnish folk beginnings with a strong >pop streak making for some pretty intense, wonderful and striking music. > >i haven't picked up the zazou album yet, so i dunno how the varttina >track compares to their own work. > >highly recommended by this ectophile. > >>hector has another one out that i know >>of, "sahara blue", for which i've been looking ever since i heard it - the >>first song is performed by anneli marion drecker, of bel canto, whose= voice >>and style i lovelovelove. can't remember who else is on it though.=20 > >gerard depardieu, david sylvian, bill laswell, ryuichi sakamaoto, >sussam deihim, keith lablanc, barbara louise gogan are just a few of >the names that ectophiles might readily recognize. there are quite a >few more as well. > >woj > > - -- Markku Kolkka mk59200@cc.tut.fi ------------------------------ From: Brooks Martin Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 07:01:31 -0400 Subject: pinky and the brain stevev@greylady.uoregon.edu (Steve VanDevender) sez: >What network is this show running on? it was shown on the warner brothers network. in the new york city area, that's wpix 11. +w ------------------------------ From: ariel_b@pipeline.com (Ariel Brennan) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 07:21:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Jewel On Sep 13, 1995 01:25:15, 'gregdunn@indy.net (Greg Dunn)' wrote: >Look carefully at the lyrics and the intentionally prissy way they're sung (in >"I'm Sensitive"); She's tongue-in-cheek here, pointing out how things could be >in a perfect world, not suggesting that life's problems are easy to solve. I >have seen enough examples of people whose self-esteem has been ruined by >constant verbal and physical abuse to understand what she's saying here. ...I've seen plenty of it. I've even had some of it done to me. I understand perfectly what she means; but it's still naive. ;) >Jewel is a perfect example of someone who has been encouraged from >an early age to stand up and speak her mind; can we condemn her premises >without being cynics ourselves? :) Ahem. I AM a cynic. I fully admit it. ;) Not only am I a cynic, I'm a pessimist and a materialist. ;) May that prepare you for what is to come in this message. >I think it's more an example of someone speaking out about things she's seen >firsthand. My daughter reads her intent clearly, having seen examples of >things like "Daddy" and "Pieces of You" in her own school. In the case of Pieces Of You, I don't think badly of her. I don't think she's handling the subject matter as well as it could be, but at least she's handling it. >Jewel is daring to >call some of the hypocrites on their own ground; if she's a bit idealistic, >what of it? I for one would like to see more people with positive outlooks and >constructive criticism, even if it tends towrd the naive or simplistic; the >insight of recognizing the root of a problem is often a good start in itself, >and we have to see it before we can deal with it... Naive and simplistic will never really help. In fact, if you make a problem look simpler than it really is, you're hurting more than helping, because everyone will underestimate it and brush it off. And the fact that she DOESN'T recognize the root of a problem is pretty harmful as well, both to her and to those she influences. >>"What we call human nature is, in actuality, human habit" has to be the >>most ridiculous statement about people I've ever heard. People are pretty >>biology/instinct driven, and that is, by definition, nature. > >Racism? Homophobia? Child abuse? Natural? I don't see how these traits are >inherent genetic dispositions. They're habitual and often learned >characteristics which are very anti-survival. Actually, you'd be surprised how much of that IS inherent genetic disposition. Sexism, for example, is an outgrowth of the desire to protect women (because without them there is no life, etc etc.) Racism and homophobia are both the result of the drive to protect you and yours from "outsiders". Two horribly misfired instincts. But instincts no less. Oh, and child abuse is seen in nature as well. One of the most dangerous beliefs to have is that you have to be "taught to hate and fear". You don't; fear and hate IS a survival instinct, albeit a nasty one that most people don't want to deal with. If people didn't hate and fear, the race would've died out long ago. The problem is that many people don't know how to go beyond base instinct. >I don't accept that the tendency >of humans to fight and mistreat one another is wholly derived from natural >selection and biological drives. Most people learn hate and intolerance form >others; they aren't born with it. Absolutely not. Look at our closest relatives; chimps. They tear each other to shreds on a regular basis. Humans are animals just like everyone else. just because we're supposedly smarter doesn't mean we're above the same instincts everything else has. Again, the problem is that many people don't know how to go beyond base instinct. Refusal to accept that will only hinder progress in the battle against it, rather than enhancing it. And no, it's not ALL biology. A lot of it is twisted biology. But people miss the boat when they look to society for answers to questions. You've got to look at the biology; that's what caused the original human behavior that eventually brought us where we are, and we're not that far from where we were back then. Consider, if people are basically peaceful beings that become polluted with bad teachings, what started those teachings to begin with? Why would someone suddenly start teaching everyone to hate and fear, thus destroying what could be a Utopia? And why does it occur regardless of society, culture, upbringing, etc? It's because you don't need to be taught TO hate or fear, you need to be taught NOT to. - -Ariel ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V2 #223 ************************** ======================================================================== Please send any questions or comments about the list to ecto-owner@nsmx.rutgers.edu