From: owner-ecto-digest To: ecto-digest@ns2.rutgers.edu Subject: ecto-digest V2 #216 Reply-To: ecto@nsmx.rutgers.edu Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Saturday, 9 September 1995 Volume 02 : Number 216 The Ecto digest is now being generated automatically. Please send problems and questions to: ecto-owner@nsmx.rutgers.edu. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jessica Koeppel" Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 15:45:51 -0700 Subject: Re: Music Vs. Lyrics I adore Cocteau Twins. need i say more? I will anyway. :) I appreciate good lyrics. bad ones can ruin otherwise reasonable songs for me. I also appreciate good music. Bad music will ruin a song that has great words for me. (good and bad being defined here as "I like" or "I don't like". If i really dislike the lyrics, I find i'm not able to ignore the words enough to like a song anyway. If I really dislike the music, I'm not going to be able to like the song no matter how good the lyrics are. The _sound_of_ and presentation of the lyrics is more important to me than the meaning of the words themselves, I suppose. I'm definitely more a singer than a dancer. To me, the sound of the words is a part of the music as important as any other instrument. Of course, I still like some lyrics better than others, and as i said, really bad ones _can_ ruin a song for me. they're not unimortant by any means. I certainly appreciate lyrics that are good to _read_ on their own without the music. I actually cried when I read the lyrics booklet from "solace" before I had even had a chance to listen to the CD. But when it comes to listening to the song.. I'd have to say the sound of them is more important to me than the words. (and as with anything in the world, there are exceptions, some songs which are all word, for which the music is simply a vehicle and background and beat to move along to. And then, what the words are is all the more important). --jessica ------------------------------ From: ItsyBitsyS@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 19:54:40 -0400 Subject: Vishnu's Secret, Pooka etc. Hello ya'll! I just thought I'd clue ya'll in to a few artists I've come across. First of all Vishnu's Secret. I am very proud to mention them because #1 they started out in my home town (Santa Cruz, CA), and #2 I'm almost positive I'm the first on ecto to have heard of them YES! SCORE! You people are always five years ahead of me. Anyway they moved to Seattle a couple of months ago after the release of their first album "3 candles". About their music - Kate Bush does opera? Mabye not. All I know is the lead singer Aimee Page has got one powerful, beautiful voice and it perfectly graces Bob Burns guitar and cello. The melody and phrasing of the words are haunting and quite strange very hard to "get' but it's definately worth the effort (Or you could get the CD and just look at the lyrics). This is the type of music I would like to listen to in a cave by the ocean during a full moon, very gothic. The reason I'm telling you this is because this duo performs quite a bit and I'm convinced that even if one hates the music they will be blown away by the power of Aimee's voice. Check them out while they're still playing coffee houses and watch out Seattle philes! Now I'm gonna throw out some bait. Stereotaxic Device and Pooka. I have no doubt that some of you are familiar with Pooka and that mabye Pooka has even gotten some discussion on ecto. I am very intrigued by this duo. Mostly just acoustic guitars wild harmonies some creepy lyrics. They sound like a couple of young girls with no vocal training. I didn't like it at all the first time but after a few times through my CD player their music has grown on me. It's bare bones yet complex at the same time and one wonders what kind of a mind some of the lyrics came from. "I once knew a demon, he was friendly with me He tore out my heart and he bit off my feet Then he asked for forgiveness and I said I'd try But I knew I couldn't it was all just a lie.......... So there I stood with no arms and no feet No body, no soul and only my teeth" from Demon Does anybody know anything about them? Is their self - titled release the only one? And last but not least Stereotaxic Device. Kind of makes me think of AG's Ambient, but more industrial. There are some very cool far away vocals on some of the tracks and some groovin' hooks. The name of the album I bought is 100 PER DAY EXTINCT and the theme is definately enviromental and animal rights oriented. This is definately the most interesting approach to political music I've ever heard, it projects more of a mood than anything else, yet it is very powerful. Has anybody heard of them? I bought the album for the bitchin' cover and know nothing about the group. Kisses if you made it to the bottom of this post. Bye bye. Shelly (ItsyBitsyS@aol.com) ------------------------------ From: Vickie the Ectophile Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 19:00:19 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Picket Against Scientology info Geez...I've been debating for the last two weeks about posting this. The worldwide pickets are tomorrow and I just realized that I won't be able to sleep tonight if I don't pass the info along. The Cult of Scientology poses a threat to the freedoms we take for granted here on the Internet. I'm taking precious time out from packing tomorrow (Saturday) to take part in the Chicago picket, because I feel very strongly about this issue. I'll be at 3011 N. Lincoln Ave. tomorrow between 3pm and 6pm. For more information about other pickets around the world, check out alt.religion.scientology. For more information about *why* we're picketing, read a.r.s or check out some of the many pertinent web pages (in my temporary .sig) and judge for yourself. Scientology passes itself off as a "religion" everywhere but Germany (the only country smart enough so far to label it what it is...a cult) but this is not a matter of "religious freedom" nor does it (the protest) have anything to do with not wanting people to practice whatever kind of beliefs they want. The critics of Co$ are trying to get the *truth* about Scientology out to the public. The cult is fighting its critics on the Internet by attacking the Internet itself from many angles. This "war" might well affect many people who might now know nothing whatsoever about Scientology and could care less about it. It's worth looking into even if you're one of these people who are in the dark. Following are two forwarded posts from a poster in a.r.s. who has to remain anonymous to avoid harrassment by the cult. Press "n" or read on. I'll be able to sleep tonight either way. Vickie (yeah...I hate packing. This is important to me though) - -------------------------- Newsgroups: alt.internet.media-coverage,alt.religion.scientology From: henri@netcom.com (henry) Subject: Scientology to be picketed worldwide 9/9 Followup-To: alt.religion.scientology Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 11:56:24 GMT Lines: 33 - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- scientology will be picketed worldwide on 9/9, everywhere from texas to the netherlands. washington, dc. new york city. las vegas. san francisco. seattle. chicago. this picketing was discussed and organized on the newsgroup alt.religion.scientology. as far as i know, this is an historic event, the first worldwide coordinated protest action organized on the net. read alt.religion.scientology for details. sorry for the charter violation--followups OUT OF HERE to ars. h - - -- Xenu's Famous House o' Clams T-shirts! *All* profits go to MoFo to help with the Dennis Erlich Defense Fund. Email to: ladyada@gnu.ai.mit.edu for details $15 per shirt, 3 colors. Design available at http://www.cybercom.net/~rnewman/scientology/home.html - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.i iQBVAgUBMFAvZHZ/m2/Pgo35AQGc2AH/f1UEW6H+okOEG6HJUXJ5k4+HKn3Tw3EP xme5B2tioDen4IEAVYFHiyZsmhv4yYu9VPtbRj3A38pRldHFdOdl1w== =C0WU - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology From: henri@netcom.com (henry) Subject: The Net's Come a Long Way Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 11:17:13 GMT Lines: 134 - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- consider this: for about a year now, we on alt.religion.scientology have been under constant attack by a wealthy adversary that will stop at nothing to cease our activities. a criminal cult has been beggaring itself in a frenzy of continual assaults against the newsgroup and its participants, and rather than harming the newsgroup or making it an ineffective medium of communication has caused it to become one of the more heavily-trafficked and documented newsgroups on the net. the attacks have included: *raids on the homes of participants in the newsgroup, and lawsuits against journalists who have covered the ongoing story *attempts to rmgroup the newsgroup itself, and destroy it utterly *raids and lawsuits against internet service providers and threats of legal action against ISPs maintaining web sites, ftp sites and users, both in the united states and abroad *threats and police action against anonymous remailer operators, both in the united states and abroad *attempts to fill the group with off-topic and propagandistic posts, to drown signal in noise *attempts to censor it by a continual stream of cancellation forgeries *attempts to libel and discredit effective critics *forgeries of threats of violence from critics *hacking the account of critics *'outing' anonymous posters by publicizing their names and addresses *harassment and surveillance of participants of the newsgroup *over a hundred threats of lawsuits *the activities of wanted felon eugene ingram, who has harassed grady ward and stolen from his elderly mother, in addition to going through jeff jacobsen's trash and otherwise harassing him *attempts to intimidate tom klemesrud, administrator of support.com, into yanking dennis erlich's account by trying to frame him for sexual assault by hiring a woman to throw blood around his house and then call the police *the establishment of a front group called 'task force for freedom and responsibility on the internet' *deliberate and constant lies being told to the media at every turn *telephone harassment of users of the group, including fraudulent acquisition of telephone billing information by impersonation, threatening faxes, and hang-up phone calls. *death threats from 'robert marcus' *threats of libel suits *attempts to have critics thrown off the net by repeated complaints to site administrators *attempts to infiltrate the group and gain intelligence despite an incessant barrage of such sleazy and costly tactics, this newsgroup is one of the best-documented newsgroups on the net, and has continued to gather and spread true information about its adversary, the church of scientology. there are about a dozen web sites devoted to scientology alone, and it has gained more media publicity than any newsgroup in the history of the net. rather than destroying the newsgroup, the best attacks the cult can muster have instead strengthened the group in its resolve, and we're now larger than ever. not a single critic, not tarlastar who was outed, not grady whose family has been harassed, not jeff jacobsen who was harassed by gene ingram, not dennis erlich who had his house raided and lost his job and home, not arnie lerma whose house was raided and whose computers were seized, not larry wollersheim whose BBS and business records werre seized, not martin poulter whose net access was threatened, not keith cochran whose ftp site was shut down, not damon chetson, who is on the famous 'list of names' for whom the cult searches, not unixer nor SCAMIZDAT nor rogue agent, not a single outspoken critic has knuckled under before these constant threats. however, we have seen cult dupes come and slink away, defeated and helpless, in a constant stream, revealed as liars and jeered off the stage in disgrace. our mode of operation has been continual victory, each more spectacular than the last. the cult's mode of operation has been defeat after defeat in the eyes of the public, and it creeps away time and again under a rain of ridicule and scorn and clam jokes. utter victory is only a matter of time. h - - -- Xenu's Famous House o' Clams T-shirts! *All* profits go to MoFo to help with the Dennis Erlich Defense Fund. Email to: ladyada@gnu.ai.mit.edu for details $15 per shirt, 3 colors. Design available at http://www.cybercom.net/~rnewman/scientology/home.html - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.i iQBVAgUBMFAmNHZ/m2/Pgo35AQHVHAIAg6HWx/FLoGj70n/rL3eHhn4SaKUAvSYL in1T7hAZq8N59TAwKkX04tOO4fmvFsWL1w7ddMRpoUEoy/yoK6roXA== =r4h1 - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- "Mark my words, the Church of $cientology is attempting to stifle all criticism of its actions on the net. It will take any action it can to achieve its aims. It could not give a damn about the freedoms that we have, until recently, taken for granted on this medium. It cares not one jot for any namby pamby notions of Free Speech. It wants to shut us all up and it will take whatever measures it has to in order to achieve those ends regardless of the consequences for net users as a whole. If it succeeds in its aims, then others will rush to follow." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sister Clara alt.religion.scientology Ron Newman's page http://www.cybercom.net/~rnewman/home.html EFF's page http://www.eff.org/pub/EFF/Legal/Cases/CoS_v_the_Net/ ------------------------------ From: tela@tela.bc.ca (Neil K. Guy) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 17:04:29 -0700 Subject: Re: Millions of replies (very long) At 12:01 PM on 9/8/95, Sage Lunsford & Todd O'Reilly (well, actually just Sage) wrote: >Eeek, really? I mean, I agree that this is extremely true of top 40 music, >but of ecto stuff? Can you name a particular song that you really love the >lyrics to? Well I can. Several songs by Spirit of the West, for instance. It's not quite ectophilic music (though I know at least a couple of other people on the list who like it) but John Mann and Geoff Kelly are incredible lyricists. They often focus on somewhat political issues, which can turn some people off, but I think one of their main problems and why they've never really made it all that big, commercially speaking, is that their lyrics are just too intelligent for the mass market. May sound a bit elitist, but I think it's true. They have this incredible knack at taking a wearisome cliche and twisting it around in ingenious ways - or telling a story that fits together like a jigsaw on repeated listenings, whether they're singing about feeling out of place at a party, the mine bombing in the Yukon, a relationship breaking up or actor Paul Reuben getting arrested for playing with PeeWee in public. I suppose I could type in some sample lyrics, but personally I think the effect is a lot better hearing the songs in their entirety... As for the music and lyrics question, I tend to want both. Greedy, I know, but shucks... If a piece of music is really cool I can usually get past ho-hum lyrics, but I find vapid lyrics almost inevitably turn me off even if the music is okay. However brilliant lyrics only rarely make up for lousy music, I find. If the music is crap why not simply sell the lyrics as poetry and leave it at that? Why waste time setting it to music? Of course this begs the question: what are good lyrics? I guess for me good lyrics should tell a story or paint an image or evoke a feeling, or generally just verb a not too cliched noun. If the song sounds like someone cut and pasted some standard lines (ooh bay-beh yeah yeah dance to the rhythm of my heartbeat blah blah) then I start getting grumpy. :) Of course, I have all kinds of contradictory and opionated extensions to this general idea. Early Sarah McLachlan, for instance, may be pretty honest but a lot of it sounds like angst-ridden teenage juvenalia to me. But some of her later stuff is pretty darn good! It seems to me that the post-Beatles era of pop music (prior to which pop singers weren't really expected to write their own stuff - they just hired some songwriter to churn something out) has perhaps encouraged situations of performers who can't write and vice-versa. Or something. :) - Neil (snob? me?) K. - -- Public Relations Chair & Webmaster Vancouver Regional FreeNet Association Neil K. Guy * nkg@freenet.vancouver.bc.ca ------------------------------ From: VNozick@tribune.com Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 19:05:11 -0700 Subject: Re[2]: Music Vs. Lyrics Jessica wrote: >Of course, I still like some lyrics better than others, and as i said, >really bad ones _can_ ruin a song for me. they're not unimortant by >any means. I certainly appreciate lyrics that are good to _read_ on >their own without the music. I actually cried when I read the lyrics >booklet from "solace" before I had even had a chance to listen to the >CD. But when it comes to listening to the song.. I'd have to say the sound >of them is more important to me than the words. That's interesting. You're a music person; I'm a lyric person. Yet no song has ever really made me cry just from the lyrics alone. In fact, only one song has ever made me cry -- Moments of Pleasure, by KaTe. And that's only because it reminded me (and still does to this day) of my father's death. Then again, it could just be that I'm a basically unsympathetic (unsentimental?) person -- just ask anyone who's sat with me while we watch the news. ==> Valerie ------------------------------ From: Vickie the Ectophile Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 19:40:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ATTN: UK question (TV liscenses?) So here I am...trying hard not to go back to packing and having a good conversation on #ecto and watching TV Nation on the telly is nicely doing the trick. Well...TV Nation (A *WONDERFUL* SHOW) did a piece about how absurd it is that folks in the UK have to have a liscense to have televisions in their homes. Could someone post the "rules" of this law? Do you have to have a liscence for every TV in the house? How much do the liscenses cost? Do computer monitors that double as a TV count? It's all so bizarre! (and yeah...we pay for cable but that's different) Vickie (a TV Nationaholic) ------------------------------ From: "jessica" Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 18:16:19 -0700 Subject: Re: Re[2]: Music Vs. Lyrics On Sep 8, 7:05pm, VNozick@tribune.com wrote: > That's interesting. You're a music person; I'm a lyric person. Yet no song has > ever really made me cry just from the lyrics alone. In fact, only one song has > ever made me cry -- Moments of Pleasure, by KaTe. And that's only because it > reminded me (and still does to this day) of my father's death. Very few songs have actually made me cry. The only one I can think of is by Kate, but it's a different song. This Woman's Work. Which reminds me of a friend who died of cancer at age 29 with two beautiful kids and a wonderful husband and who'd only come down with it about a year before. Oddly enough, she died October 17th. The exact date of the release of the album (The Sensual World) with the song on it. (also the date of the big earthquake in CA). what year was that. '90? It never made me cry to listen to it. But every time I sang the song myself, I would start crying. I sang it for a few people, becuase it was so beautiful and so appropriate. and always when I sang it I would cry. --jessica ------------------------------ From: rlovejoy@netaxs.com (Robert Lovejoy) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 22:01:41 -0400 Subject: Ecto WWW home page - slow? Since the Ecto home page moved to Tela, I have had great difficulty accessing it. At first I thought it was the browser I was using, because it was pretty balky. I'm now using Netscape 1.1, and most sites stream in rapidly... but Ecto is incredibly slow. Is anyone else having this problem, or should I contact my provider? Thanks, Robert the browsing fool ------------------------------ From: Martin Jardon Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 21:11:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: New Homepage! Was just getting excited about a new homepage that was recently created for our band "The Jade Quills". Our music is fairly ecto-sounding with female vocals and heavy keyboards so thought some of you might be interested in checking it out. The address is: http://comp.uark.edu/~mjardon Also, I was trying to find something on Mary Lou Lord on the web, but couldn't seem to come up with anything. Are her links hiding? Martin ------------------------------ From: stevev@greylady.uoregon.edu (Steve VanDevender) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 95 20:14:18 PDT Subject: Off color... "Matt Bittner" writes: > ...unless you have a great TV. Anybody else looking forward to the > premier of "Pinky & the Brain" this Sunday? Probably the best > animated characters yet. ZOT! When? Where? Narf! ------------------------------ From: Neile Graham Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 21:01:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Vishnu's Secret, Pooka etc. I will have to keep my eyes peeled for Vishnu's Secret (I am in Seattle). I like Pooka, too. I bought the disc on the basis of a review in OPTION mag and at first was disappointed, but that offbeatness grew on me. They opened for Kristin Hersh on her solo tour for _Hips and Makers_, and everyone who went with me hated them. Jim still does, and a couple of people I've played the disc for didn't like it. But I still do. They are very young. They seem to come out of the same place as their name does--a pooka is a nightmare, a horse that you ride that takes you on a wild & terrifying ride then throws you off into a ditch. Their harmonies & some of the lyrics seem to come write from that folklore--a little dark, human on a basic and dark cottages on a dark night level. Something in their harmonies reminds me of the Yorkshire folk group (I think Pooka is from Yorkshire, too) The Watersons, who have very harsh but beautiful harmonies. Though strangely enough, most people I know don't like them, either. Anyway, I've seen signs on some import single lists that they have a new single in the UK, which might be the lead in to a new disc. - --Neile neile@u.washington.edu ------------------------------ From: Neile Graham Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 21:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Millions of replies (very long) I agree with Neil about the quality of Spirit of the West's lyrics. They are definitely among the more interesting and intelligent lyrics I've ever heard/read. > some people off, but I think one of their main problems and why they've > never really made it all that big, commercially speaking, is that their > lyrics are just too intelligent for the mass market. May sound a bit > elitist, but I think it's true. That may be true. I mean, look at the most popular song right now. "Don't go chasing waterfalls". Waterfalls? Don't they mean the water that goes over the falls? Or what? Yikes. Or even the famous song that was actually written by a "poet": "all I wanna do is have some fun" Gee, great poetry. > They [Spirit of the West] have this incredible knack at taking a > wearisome cliche and twisting it around in ingenious ways - or telling a > story that fits together like a jigsaw on repeated listenings They sure do. Though I never did get that "Goodbye Grace" was about Geoff and his wife finally being able to take their baby home who had been born with some pretty serious medical problems until they told the story at a concert :) Though I actually think that the main reason they haven't taken off is bad choices about albums to promote--I think _Go Figure_ was a much better & catchier album that _Faithlift_ which is the only one that's gotten a U.S. push so far. I like their new one _Two-headed_ a lot, and think it will do fiarly well if they would just promote it. > As for the music and lyrics question, I tend to want both. Greedy, I know, > but shucks... If a piece of music is really cool I can usually get past > ho-hum lyrics, but I find vapid lyrics almost inevitably turn me off even > if the music is okay. Ditto. > However brilliant lyrics only rarely make up for > lousy music, I find. If the music is crap why not simply sell the lyrics as > poetry and leave it at that? Why waste time setting it to music? Well, I have yet to see really brilliant lyrics that I would call poetry that had a really lousy tune. But maybe because if the tune's that bad I don't listen to the lyrics. > general idea. Early Sarah McLachlan, for instance, may be pretty honest but > a lot of it sounds like angst-ridden teenage juvenalia to me. But some of > her later stuff is pretty darn good! Actually, I still think her lyrics are less mature than her music. (Please no-one shoot me.) But they're definitely improving. My biggest problem is that not only am I a music snob and a lyrics snob, but I'm a poetry snob, so I think I'm a lot tougher on lyrics than most people. I can't afford to listen to the lyrics first or I'd hardly listen to any music. Very few of the lyrics I see would have made it through my freshman writing workshop. Hell, my work didn't either. - --Neile neile@u.washington.edu ------------------------------ From: Richard Holmes Date: Fri, 8 Sep 95 21:19:54 -0700 Subject: Re: Re[2]: Music Vs. Lyrics Valerie writes: >That's interesting. You're a music person; I'm a lyric person. Yet no >song has ever really made me cry just from the lyrics alone. In fact, >only one song has ever made me cry -- Moments of Pleasure, by KaTe. >And that's only because it reminded me (and still does to this day) of >my father's death. > >Then again, it could just be that I'm a basically unsympathetic >(unsentimental?) > >person -- just ask anyone who's sat with me while we watch the news. > >==> Valerie > Jane Siberry's "vigil" made me cry, as have some of loreena mckennitt's songs... but I heard them before I read the lyrics.... Many songs make me cry, but not all the time.... - -Richard. ------------------------------ From: Richard Holmes Date: Fri, 8 Sep 95 21:41:03 -0700 Subject: Re: Millions of replies (very long) Neile writes: >> general idea. Early Sarah McLachlan, for instance, may be pretty >>honest but >> a lot of it sounds like angst-ridden teenage juvenalia to me. But >>some of >> her later stuff is pretty darn good! > >Actually, I still think her lyrics are less mature than her music. >(Please no-one shoot me.) But they're definitely improving. I'd have to agree, i was drawn to the sound, and the lyrics are passable, and with the music, quite emotionally evocative, but not really stand-alone. When I think of it most lyrics have more trouble standing alone with out the music. Perhaps that's why my wife tends to like to write music to poetry rather than come up with her own lyrics... neither of us is experienced in poetry. - -Richard. ------------------------------ From: Michael Matthews Date: Sat, 9 Sep 1995 03:30:02 -0400 Subject: Today's your birthday, friend... i*i*i*i*i*i i*i*i*i*i*i *************** *****HAPPY********* **************BIRTHDAY********* *************************************************** *************************************************************************** ************ David Blank-Edelman (dnb@meshugge.media.mit.edu) ************* *************************************************************************** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- David Blank-Edelman Sat September 09 1967 Neon Holly Tominack Thu September 10 1970 Virgo Troy Wollenslegel Mon September 18 1972 Virgo Joe Zitt Sat September 20 1958 Will Hack for CDs Dan Riley Sun October 08 1961 Libra Neile Graham Wed October 08 1958 pen Quenby M. Chunco Tue October 08 1968 Crunchy Frog Mike Garland Wed October 08 1952 Creature_of_the_Night - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V2 #216 ************************** ======================================================================== Please send any questions or comments about the list to ecto-owner@nsmx.rutgers.edu