From: owner-ecto-digest To: ecto-digest@ns2.rutgers.edu Subject: ecto-digest V2 #105 Reply-To: ecto@nsmx.rutgers.edu Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Thursday, 11 May 1995 Volume 02 : Number 105 The Ecto digest is now being generated automatically. Please send problems and questions to: ecto-owner@nsmx.rutgers.edu. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Greg Bossert Date: Wed, 10 May 95 22:21:50 EDT Subject: Re: ecto-digest V2 #104 >From the Martha & the Muffins mailing list. > [...] woo! yeep! kazowee! one of my most prized pieces of vinyl is _This is the Ice Age_, from the days when Martha had more than one Muffin, and the-at-the-time- totally-unknown-but-clearly-an-Eno-fanatic-little-did-he-know-that-he- would-end-up-the-801-right-hand-man Daniel Lanois was producing. _danceparc_ is another fave: Mark's guitar playing is astounding on both. please please please let them release those on CD (the _Far Away in Time_ compilation is *not* enough...) my goodness, i love Ecto :) ta. (hoof) - --+ greg bossert rutgers university network services +-- - --+ bossert@noc.rutgers.edu +-- - --+ i have never been afraid to change -- Happy +-- - --+ the circumstances of the world -- Rhodes +-- ------------------------------ From: JC214@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 23:54:40 -0400 Subject: the reivers/zeitgeist/etc.... wow! people that know the reivers... one of my all-time faves! saw them when they were zeitgeist (1985-86? it's been THAT LONG?) here in danbury at a club long gone, the name of which escapes me..... they were so good live that i ran out and bought "translate slowly" - their first lp (yes on vinyl) which came out on cd years later as the reivers. from what i recall they were being sued by someone else over the zeitgeist name and had to change to the reivers somewhere around 1987 (?). all four albums are pretty good, "pop beloved" being my personal fave. you're right woj, pursuit of happiness is a close comparison though pursuit are heavier and not country-ish like the reivers. somewhere in the depths of my 15000 plus vinyl collection i even have a promo interview lp released at the time of saturday (i think). must admit i was fairly fanatical about them at the time.... so many digests, so little time to write - my band is being courted by several record labels (warners among them!) thanks to our cd and gig at the towne crier so i barely have time to read ecto no less answer. what a conundrum. we're even doing a live broadcast on WPKN. i think its the sunday after Happy, so i'm working on sneaking in to see her! got sarah tickets for jones beach too! yyyyyaaaaaayyyyy! they go on sale for garden state arts center on saturday may 13. anyone else going? i'm also putting together the first Danbury Folk Festival for sometime in september. if anyone knows someone that would like to dedicate their time and play for free please e-mail me personally. all of the proceeds will be going to Interfaith AIDS project of greater Danbury (of which i'm a director). it will be an outdoor gig in a local park- several local talents are already lined up: walking the dragon, amy kalisher, my band sans cherubs of course, and i've spoken with several other regional acts about appearing. wouldn't it be wonderful though if we could get jewel or happy(!!!!!) to do it. if anyone has any ideas or contacts i can certainly use them. the wonderful thing is that so far everything i've gotten ( p.a. system, advertising) has been donated. bye for now! chuck ------------------------------ From: Greg Bossert Date: Wed, 10 May 95 23:57:30 EDT Subject: Re: ecto-digest V2 #103 Meredith slanders: > Everyone please note that "morning" in footah's universe translates to > approximately 2:00 PM. Of course, he can't help it that his > consciousness is in the Alaskan Time Zone while his body is trapped in > New Jersey... ;> i submit in evidence the headers from the message under debate: >From: Greg Bossert >Date: Mon, 8 May 95 10:20:38 EDT >Subject: aaaaargh! hah! see, i was at the office at 10:20am. indeed, i was at the office at 9:00am that day! the fact that i spent all afternoon cleaning up the errors i made in my dazed morning condition is of no consequence... ;) *** ditto on the congrats to Neile on the critical success of her poetry! the process of creating art always amazes me; those people who are focused and dedicated enough to that process to reach other people and affect them fill me with awe and exhilaration. *** hey, Angelos. hi! howzit? almost feels like old times on Ecto :) *** re the Swans: they actually had a hit in Boston with their cover of "Love Will Tear Us Apart" (which someone called the "Stairway to Heaven" of the '80s...) what i recall of the albums i heard was that they were a bit easier to listen to than Live Skull or Eight Eye Spy, but didn't have the light bouncy feel of Sonic Youth's _Evol_. :| hmmm, haven't pulled out the Lydia Lunch collection in a while... *** re the engineering/production on _Fumbling Towards Ecstasy_: i think it is perfect. brilliant. the concept of a audio recording as a piece of art, rather than a representation of a piece of art, is a major developments in the history of music -- up there with polyphony and stretching an animal skin over a hollow log. the idea has grown from scattered sources over the last 40 years or so -- from Les Paul to Karl Stockhausen to the Beatles -- and it is more accepted by popular music fans than it is by many musicians. if you accept the audio recording as the artwork, rather than as a medium for distributing and reproducing the performance, then the metric of good engineering is not accuracy of representation but artistic effect: it's not a matter of how much distortion or noise there is, but rather how good or bad the distortion and noise sounds. this is a subjective debate, and one that lacks the centuries of organization and terminology that more traditional musical criticism rely upon, so all i can say is that i *like* the noise and distortion and overall sound of _FTE_. i'm as interested in the process of making music as i am in listening to the results, and _FTE_ is also notable in that regard. the art of making a recording combines traditional musicianship with the new tools and techniques of the recording studio: too often those elements are odds, and the engineer and musician engage in a sort of battle, more or less moderated by the producer, and no one is really happy with the compromises in the final product (except the record company, who gets the money...;) it's clear from the video and interviews, as well as the recording itself, that Sarah and Pierre worked to combine the songwriting, performance, recording, and processing elements into a single creative process, starting with their decision to move all the equipment and instruments into a big room in a lovely house where they could relax and enjoy what they do. that meant they had to make technical and musical compromises, no doubt, but i suspect it also helped them make better music. footahing towards ecstasy... - --+ greg bossert rutgers university network services +-- - --+ bossert@noc.rutgers.edu +-- - --+ http://www-ns.rutgers.edu/~bossert +-- - --+ i have never been afraid to change -- Happy +-- - --+ the circumstances of the world -- Rhodes +-- ------------------------------ From: MattMiz@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 00:24:33 -0400 Subject: engineering >>>Oh, I do have another complaint about FtE: The engineering is pretty >bad; there's quite a bit of noise and the distortion of Sarah's voice >is pretty terrible on a track like "Ice" The whole thing was recorded at too high a level, for sure. Way back when woj had his copy of the new Canadian release I tried to make a tape dub of it for myself on my fixed-level portable deck, and the tape was completely saturated from start to finish. At the time I thought it was some evil plot to prevent us Yanks from making dubs of the elusive Canadian-only release before Arista got its act together, but now I know it was just bad engineer- ing. :)<< As an engineer myself and a big fan of Pierre Marchand's work, esp. on FTE I feel compelled to comment just a bit here. First, the high level on certain versions in actuality has nothing to do with engineering; this is a fault at the mastering stage - so you can blame the mastering engineer perhaps but not the recording engineer. Second, as for the "distortion and noise" I know that there were certain "dirty" bits all over the album that Pierre did not dare replace for the simple fact that the take was just too strong and he did'nt want to spend hours trying to recreate an emotion or particular nuance. If you listen carefully you will find lots of this type of things on a lot of this type of music (e.g. Swamp Ophelia by IG is a technical nightmare in some spots with the headphones turned up). Just my .02 of course. :) plh, Matt ------------------------------ From: pmcohen@netaxs.com (Paul Cohen) Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 01:36:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Melanie and Max >> > Guess what, I'm interested. Any Melanie Safka fans out there? I loved her >> >In terms of positioning her in the female >singer/songwriter (she did write some of her songs) pantheon now it would >be very hard to say. Not as teenybopper as Tiffany but targeting the >then-equivalent of that market; not a lightweight yet talented (imho) pop >singer like Kylie Minogue or Sheryl Crow; too quirky and original for that. >I give up. Someone else who also liked Melanie help out, please! She aligned herself very much with the singer-songwriter image of the day. A little folky and forever a hippie. She had a knack for knocking out a cutesy pop song every album or so and was forever branded for it, but she preferred to be remembered for her folkier side. Her voice was most definitely an acquired taste, one I must've acquired, since I have every one of her 20 or so albums, including the one she put out last year, her first in 10 years. She played Woodstock and she played Carnegie Hall. She covered Dylan, Croche, Ochs, Newman and the Stones. And she deserved a better place in rock history than "Brand New Key", a song she later said she regretted writing. ________Paul Cohen________________pmcohen@netaxs.com________________________ King of Prussia, PA http://www.netaxs.com/~pmcohen/ ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo talk: pmcohen@slip-91.netaxs.com ------------------------------ From: Neal Copperman Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 01:13:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: sailing songs Ok, I want to play too! although I can't top the Lyle Lovett selection. What a great and obvious choice! How about any of the versions of Song to the Siren. I've got Laurie Freelove, This Mortal Coil and Tim Buckley. "On the floating shipless ocean, I did all my best to smile til your singing eyes and fingers drew me lovingly to your isles and you sang, sail to me, sail to me, come let me enfold you." Ocean Ocean by The Chills (from Soft Bomb): "Our anchor broke - we rode on the swell To big blue waves - they rose and fell By dawn's first light - miles from our land - - a band abandoned " (and so on) Ask Any Mermaid You Happen To See by Sally Fingerett from Enclosed (first album): " Talk like a sailor, act like a sailor Brag and boast and tie on a big one & like the waves we'll all go Dancing, rolling, crashing Down to the shore ..." And if you have a minute and a half at the end of any of the tapes, you could tack on Bottom by Zap Mama (The boat goes to the bottom, to the bottom.) *glub* Neal ------------------------------ From: Michael Matthews Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 03:30:26 -0400 Subject: Today's your birthday, friend... i*i*i*i*i*i i*i*i*i*i*i *************** *****HAPPY********* **************BIRTHDAY********* *************************************************** *************************************************************************** *************** Kathy Fitzgerald (lovey@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu) *************** *************************************************************************** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Kathy Fitzgerald Mon May 11 1970 Lovey Steve Fagg Tue May 13 1958 Nightwol Karel Zuiderveld Fri May 13 1960 Stier Michael Colford Wed May 16 1962 Taurus Christopher Boek Tue May 19 1970 Taurus Lisa Laane Tue May 22 1973 Gemini Chandra Sriram Thu May 27 1971 Gemini Urs Stafford Thu May 31 1973 Give Way Perttu Yli-Krekola Thu June 02 1966 Kaksoset Alex Gibbs Thu June 08 1967 Betelgeuse Sonja Juchniewich Mon June 10 1963 Pegasus - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ From: Damon Harper Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 03:35:47 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: sailing songs oh hey - another one i just thought of - though it's *not* upbeat and i assume you won't use it :) - is larie's "love among the sailors" off _bright red_. well, hmmm.... doesn't fit the concept but thought i'd mention it anyway. Damon (watching bagheera rolling around on the floor - silly cat :) \__________________________ _____________________________________/ \ _/\_ / Damon_Harper@mindlink.bc.ca __\ /__ "How long 'till my soul gets it right? nomad@helix.net \ / can any human being ever reach nomad@acca.nmsu.edu |/||\| that kind of light?" Damon_Harper@real.life `' - Indigo Girls, "Galileo" ------------------------------ From: snoopy@vortex.netbistro.com (Chris Rich) Date: Thu, 11 May 95 04:30 PDT Subject: Re: engineering >>>>Oh, I do have another complaint about FtE: The engineering is pretty >>bad; there's quite a bit of noise and the distortion of Sarah's voice >>is pretty terrible on a track like "Ice" > >The whole thing was recorded at too high a level, for sure. Way back when >woj had his copy of the new Canadian release I tried to make a tape dub of >it for myself on my fixed-level portable deck, and the tape was completely >saturated from start to finish. At the time I thought it was some evil plot >to prevent us Yanks from making dubs of the elusive Canadian-only release >before Arista got its act together, but now I know it was just bad engineer- >ing. :)<< > >As an engineer myself and a big fan of Pierre Marchand's work, esp. on FTE I >feel compelled to comment just a bit here. > >First, the high level on certain versions in actuality has nothing to do with >engineering; this is a fault at the mastering stage - so you can blame the >mastering engineer perhaps but not the recording engineer. > >Second, as for the "distortion and noise" I know that there were certain >"dirty" bits all over the album that Pierre did not dare replace for the >simple fact that the take was just too strong and he did'nt want to spend >hours trying to recreate an emotion or particular nuance. If you listen >carefully you will find lots of this type of things on a lot of this type of >music (e.g. Swamp Ophelia by IG is a technical nightmare in some spots with >the headphones turned up). > >Just my .02 of course. > >:) > >plh, >Matt Just as you are about to turn away you suddenly see a great (or medoicre) delurking ahead.... I just wanted to say that I could never find any fault with anything Sarah has or will put out. Having said that, I have to agree that FtE and FS do sound a little rough in spots but i wouldn't want anyone to ever change that, it's part of the charm. And if you think that Swamp Ophelia sounds rough...you should check out Rites of Passage, a headphone listeners nightmare if I ever heard one. Later, > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Asked if I were mouse or man, the mirror squeaked away I ran -Sting Chris Rich snoopy@vortex.netbistro.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ From: lpekow@etsd.ml.com ( Larne Pekowsky ) Date: Thu, 11 May 95 09:42:35 EDT Subject: Re: Jane Siberry sings tv...? Jeff Hayes: > I wonder if there's some connection to the fact that Jane's father was > at one time the president(?), CEO(?), or whatever of London Life > Company, or was it Merryl Lynch...? *blink* Speaking as a minor cog in the lumbering juggernaut that is Merrill Lynch, I find it hard to believe that anyone who shares genetic material with Jane could possibly have held a position of power here. Always-dress-as-if-you're-successful cuffs as far as the eye can see and the mind can comprehend. - Larne, plotting my escape ------------------------------ From: "C.Dallas" Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 09:06:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: resubscribe!! This is Courtney Dallas. I am finally getting a chance to jump back into my Ecto world!! Please resubscribeme to my email address: catte@baste.magibox.net. Thanks so much!! Courtney ------------------------------ From: SBI!200HUBBARD!AMYD@lmbinc.attmail.com Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 08:24:00 +0000 Subject: Re: Sailing Songs Don't hurt me for mentioning the uh... er... Beach Boys. "Sloop John B" and "Sail On Sailor".... seem like natural choices - even more obscure would be Queen's "39" from Night at the Opera and "Sail Away Sweet Sister" from The Game. Tho these choices are pretty much non-ecto selections. :-) born in the wrong decade, Amy ------------------------------ From: veronica sawyer Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 08:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 6 sheets to the wind, well wide of the mark hi everyone, i can never quite seem (in the morning anyway) to be right-on, but i don't mind being a little off so... wrt to sailing songs: it's not exactly a song, but it *is* about sailing and it seemed upbeat to me... "The Ballad of the Pirate Queens" by Jane Yolen, which i just read last night and rather enjoyed. come to think of it, it *is* a song, just not one you could easily put on tape... unless Tori (she of many and varied cover versions) or Loreena (who i think would be really good to do it) has made a recording of it. ;) and w(lighthearted dis)rt to "what is music": i once heard a quote i liked a lot, although it was talking mostly about rave music and other deeply-dancy forms, much less about other musics... "music is dance, expressed in sound dance is music, expressed in movement" put a big ;) here 'cause i'm not trying to be *serious*. i'll try that later. mourning the passage of a Dream, i remain, veronica ------------------------------ From: kcd@romulus.cray.com (Kevin Dekan {x66440 CF/DEV}) Date: Thu, 11 May 95 10:37:49 CDT Subject: Re: zeitgeist & mr. lovett recently Michael Colford and woj were discussing: MC> I love Velocity girl! I just can't stop listening to Simpatico, and MC> I got it over a year ago. They remind me of one of my all-time MC> favorite defunct bands, The Reivers, from Austin Texas. w> mmmmmm! the reivers! well, you just prompted me to pull out very w> well-worn dubs of _saturday_ and _end of the day_ out of the piles of w> cassettes. let's see, did zeitgesit become the reivers? or was it the w> other way around? argh, the brain hurts when i try to think after 1:00 w> am. Wow! Zeitgeist? Now that brings back some memories... it must have been about 10 yrs. ago I was visiting some friends in Austin and Zeitgeist was one of the hottest bands going on the local scene. I took their album _Translate Slowly_ back home with me and it became a favorite for quite some time. I dusted off the album last nite and queued up my trusty old turntable and gave her a spin. It was nice to listen to them again. They sure could harmonize! Anyway, I didn't really follow up on them (don't ask me why) and don't know if they ever did a followup album to that one or not. I've never heard of the Reivers either. The odd thing is that I checked the online cd connection and they list _Translate Slowly_ as one of *their* albums! What's the scoop here? Can you guys shed some light on this? And Laurel mentioned yet another Texas connection: > Ooooh. That Lyle Lovett song ... I can never remember the exact title, > but the chorus begins... > And if I had a boat, I'd go out on the ocean > And if I had a pony, I'd ride him on my boat... > One of the greatest songs, really. I swear. Makes me smile every time. Yepper! I can never remember the song title either but I believe it's off his _Pontiac_ album. Definately one of my favorite Lyle Lovett songs. He is from Texas isn't he?? Sheesh my memory sure is going to pot lately! > But then Lyle Lovett is just one of the coolest folks around, IMHO. I would share that opinion with you. You got to be cool to wear your hair like that! :-) See you folks later! Kevin ------------------------------ From: bridgesm@logica.co.uk (Martin G Bridges) Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 16:56:45 +0100 Subject: Re: Melanie and Max Hi all, Just hunting my way through about 85 old EctoMessages and had to reply to this as the token Yorkshireman here present: >> Old Peculiar? There is a dark, smoky beer called that available here in >> Oregon, land of just lots of microbrews and imports. I wondered where it >> came from. > >Actually, "Old Peculiar" comes from Morley in Yorkshire, England. I've >got a song about it somewhere. :) > The name of the beer is 'Old Peculier' (note spelling) and it is brewed by Theakston's of Masham, North Yorkshire, as opposed to Morley, which is just outside Leeds and whose only point of interest is a railway tunnel. Dunno what the song is tho. I now return you to sensible discussions about quality music. We apologise for the inconvenience. Martin *------------------------------------------------------------------------* * Martin G Bridges | All opinions expressed are | * * Logica UK Ltd. | mine, but may be shared! | Disqualified from * * Stephenson House |------------------------------| the human race * * 67-87 Hampstead Rd. | Email: bridgesm@logica.co.uk | for shoving * * LONDON NW1 2PL | Tel. : +44 171 637 9111 | * * U.K. | Fax. : +44 171 344 3633 | * *------------------------------------------------------------------------* ------------------------------ From: Marion Kippers Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 19:03:53 +0200 Subject: RE: sailing songs Hi all, Jeff Burka wrote: >I'm basically looking for stuff mentioning sailing, but in a >positive light. "Thousands are Sailing" by the Pogues might >be usable, but "Turkish Song of the Damned" probably isn't. > >So whaddya think, folks, any thoughts? The first song to jump into my mind was Tracey Thorn's "Plain Sailing". This is probably hard to find - I only know it from a 1983 (?) compilation album called "Pillows and Prayers", but it's a very beautiful song. A solo track from the Everything- but-the-Girl girl. I'm not sure if it's indeed about sailing, but it's mentioned in the title. And ehmmm... Rod Stewart? :-) The Commodores' "Sail On"? :-) The famous (not :) ) Dutch group Splitsing (now known as de Jazzpolitie) with "Wind en Zeilen" (wind and sails)? :-) :-) I might be able to come up with more songs when I have a look at my records and CD's (at home), but this is what I've got for now. Best wishes, Marion ______________________________________________________________ Marion Kippers Wolters Kluwer Academic Publishers Automation Department Dordrecht, The Netherlands Marion.Kippers@wkap.nl "Leave the shadows dancing..." (OP) ______________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: anthony@xymox.apana.org.au (Anthony Horan) Date: Fri, 12 May 95 02:12:03 +1000 Subject: Re: Melanie and Max Michael said: (massive nested quote alert!!! :-) > > > >Lay Down (Candles In The Rain) > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > >The album's out May 15th. > > > > > > > >Apologies to Ectopeople outside Australia/NZ, to whom none of the above is > > > >likely to be of the slightest bit of interest. :) > > > > > > Guess what, I'm interested. Any Melanie Safka fans out there? I loved her > > > > Bing! You're correct. The sleeve notes of the CD confirm that it is indeed a > > cover version of the Melanie Safka song. I've never heard of her before; > > She was an acquired taste. That particular song was quite anthemic with > gospel overtones, partly because she was backed up by the Edwin Hawkins > Singers, a large r&b/gospel group who are a long way from Melanie's regular > sound. (She never used her last name on her albums.) Her voice was > something between a screech and Janis Ian. She target Pop as opposed to > Protest or Folk; the album "Candles in the Rain" was released 3/70. The I asked Max about her; she said the following: ****** (Explanation of what Ecto is about omitted; Max says you all sound cool :) Max: She was sort of an old hippy from the Woodstock days... somebody left her album "Candles In The Rain" at my house, my first flat, when I was 17. And it's very raw, it's a really raw record. I liked it, but I found her quite raw, which I could sort of take or not, and later on when I was in Hamburg, she was playing live with Donovan, and I went and saw them. I didn't like it, I thought they were both washed-up old introverted hippies. I got bored, and I guess you had to have come from that generation to really appreciate them. Anyway, I went backstage and met Melanie, because I'd learnt that she was also the writer of "Brand New Key", which is a song I used to love... (starts singing it :-). I respected her songwriting. When Daniel (Denholm, producer) and I were demo-ing, he suggested we do "Lay Down", and I thought wow, how in tune of Daniel to suggest that. Because I've had the feeling of always wanting to record one of her songs, but polishing it off a little bit. And it sort of sat nicely, and it's quite relevant to today, because of its reference to AIDS and to peace. Me: Before I had discovered who Melanie was and when the song was written, I had assumed the lyrics were referring to the "Reclaim The Night" thing in the USA... Max: I hadn't thought of that. Cool... Me: So Daniel suggested recording the song without knowing that you had come into contact with it before? Max: Yeah. But Daniel and I have got very similar tastes in song appreciation... wow, Reclaim The Night, that's fantastic. How cool... ******* :-) Gimme a break, I thought Melanie Safka was a 90s artist...! Anyway, if Max starts making Reclaim The Night references in relation to this song, you'll know where they came from. Speaking of which, that night at the launch, Max was playing an acoustic set with the help of a few glasses of finest brandy, and as her set got progressively stranger and funnier, she chided all those who'd asked her about Melanie Safka all day before launching into a lyrically twisted parody of "Brand New Key" complete with chicken noises when she forgot the words... :) > Anthony, yes, please pick up a copy of Max's cd for me when you can. Thanks. I can do that. It's out Monday in Australia and New Zealand, in the next couple of months in asorted Asian territories, and later in Europe. According to Warner, nothing is yet finalised for the US. > came from. I like all those other beers you mention, but lately I can't get > enough of the *canned* Guinness Pub Draft Stout. They insert some kind of > plastic cartridge in the can that releases when opened; puts a great head > on it and the flavor is amazing. New product; must be hell on the aluminum > recyclers! It's been available for a few years here (and, I assume, in England and Ireland). The can design won awards; many other manufacturers have ripped off the basic idea. And as a Guinness fan, I can assure you that you're completely right; the self-draught Guiness in a can is the best tasting Guinness you'll drink outside of an Irish pub; this has been verified for me by three unconnected visting Irishmen. :) Pity it costs A$3.70 per can... Incidentally, I'm told that the gas used in the cans is Nitrogen... (!!!). > | Please don't add "*@aol.com" to your twit filter. Thank you. | :) - - Anthony ("I've got an 8x10 photo of Tori Amos in a PRICS T-Shirt!!!" :-) - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anthony Horan, Melbourne Australia - anthony@xymox.apana.org.au Physical mail: P.O. Box 40, Malvern 3144, Victoria, Australia "The red sky was bleeding glimpses of heaven, in sections of seven..." - Rose Chronicles reaching lyrical perfection on "Awaiting Eternity" - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V2 #105 ************************** ======================================================================== Please send any questions or comments about the list to ecto-owner@nsmx.rutgers.edu