28-Oct-91 6:27:40-GMT,29592;000000000401 Received: from athos.rutgers.edu by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.4/3.08) id AA18567; Mon, 28 Oct 91 01:20:16 EST Received: by athos.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.4/3.08) id AA05269; Mon, 28 Oct 91 01:20:09 EST Date: Mon, 28 Oct 91 01:20:09 EST Message-Id: <9110280620.AA05269@athos.rutgers.edu> Errors-To: owner-ecto@athos.rutgers.edu Reply-To: ecto@athos.rutgers.edu Sender: ecto@athos.rutgers.edu From: ecto@athos.rutgers.edu To: ecto-request@athos.rutgers.edu Subject: ecto #15 ecto, Number 15 Monday, 28 October 1991 Today's Topics: *-----------------* "Gesture-based" musical interface HI! There's a growing force of people who care nothing in particular Happy & Kevin's personal touch Kate reference on Mystery Science Theater 3000! Re: Number vs Gesture (was: Keyboards vs Vocals) Re: Martin meets The Holy Ghost Questions tugging the edge of my mind... subscribe ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 26 Oct 91 13:28 CDT From: katefans@chinet.chi.il.us (Chris n Vickie) Subject: "Gesture-based" musical interface Chris here, Somebody wrote: > I wrote: >>>why should an artist have to program, dammit!? > > greg answers (by email): >>why can't programming be artistic? > and somebody else wrote: > oh, yes, it can, but it's a million times harder to achieve art thru > numbers than thru gestures. i'd like her to be able to wave a magic > mouse-wand and zero in on the perfect sound just by listening to the > changes. I only know of two attempts at an entirely "gesture-based" musical interface. One is the symphony orchestra from the point of view of the conductor. The other, technological rather than administrative, is the "Theremin". For those who may be un-familiar, this device was a strange by-product of the development of radio. It was a box with an tone generating oscillator controlled by two antennas; a upright rod for pitch and a horizontal loop for volume. The position of the players hands relative to each antenna controlled the sound. This is arguably the most direct interface ever built. It has been a miserable flop. (Other than a few appearances in The Beach Boys "Good Vibrations" and various Sigh-Fie movies.) Clara Rockmore is the only acknowledged master of it, and those who have seen our video of her playing remark on the absolute, Zen Master-like control she exhibits to be able to produce a single accurately pitched note. My opinion is that any truly "gesture-based" instrument will need to have approximately the same intelligence as a Symphony Orchestra. Doug Burks wrote: > In spite of that, I will say there is a case for user interfaces on > electronic instruments. However, I am convinced that fancy user interfaces > are the computer equivalent of training wheels on a bicycle. They are a > great help to get you started, but once you've gotten the hang of it they > merely get in the way. User interfaces always limit the choices and > capabilities for the equipment or software they hide. The division between "command line" and "user interface" is simply a matter deciding where you want to do your processing; in your cerebrum - remembering command-line switches; or cerebellum - selecting a choice on the screen. Personally, I find every interface I have ever seen inadequate, but command-line is a dead-end. The future lies in off-loading _more_ of the processing from the meat to the machine. The more it can guess what you want, the less you have to think about niggling little details. > However, the ideas an artist wants to express are not limited to a > small, well-defined conceptual world. > The better the artist, the more she wants to bust any boundaries of > her world. She wilX$7xto use the instrument in ways no one else has > before! How can that be expressed in a user interface? Nearly every novel in the english language can be expressed on the hundred or so keys on your keyboard. Nearly every western song can be expressed using the eighty-eight keys on a piano. The songs can be made more powerful by using various tonal colors supplied by other instruments, just as typography can enhance the impact of writing. But usually the notes alone are enough to create the desired emotional response. > One way or another, the artist has to learn the instrument as thoroughly > as possible to fully express her ideas. Any interface has to get > completely out of her way. I'll fully admit that an electronic > instrument with its near infinite plasticity is damned tough to learn. > Maybe music needs what computer visual arts has a lot of, the > pairing of technical and artistic talent into a single team. I do gigs for fun with a band called "Psychowelders", supplying live, interactive computer graphics. The software I use has such a nearly transparent graphical user interface that almost any action produces some sort of interesting result. In fact, the best result are achieved by NOT having ANY idea what you are doing. After gigs I always get a few Art Institute types telling me how much they like my "art". I have to carefully explain that the "art" was bullshit, and was intended as such. Chris Williams of Chris'n'Vickie (but you knew that) katefans@chinet.chi.il.us ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 26 Oct 91 14:23 CDT From: vickie@chinet.chi.il.us (Vickie Ann Mapes) Subject: HI! Welcome Geoff, good to have you. Bye Michael, come back soon! I had dinner with Michael last night and he explained his situation. He doesn't have an account of his own, he logs into his girlfriend's account (Charlotte Stern) and he had his modem taken away, so he can't access it as often. She got in trouble because messages were piling up and taking up her disk space. Until he gets another modem at work (he doesn't have a computer at home) he's had to limit his e-mail. I told him about the digest, he might go for it. One long message a day is better than 20, so we'll see. WXPN gave away 70 Warpaint CDs during their pledge drive. At $100.00 a pledge, they made some serious big bucks from Happy. The interview is all done from H&K's end, now we're just waiting for WXPN to splice it all together and get the details worked out. Kevin is going to find out when (and where, if possible) it will be aired and keep me informed. They have 49 Warpaint CDs left. One pressing plant said they could start pressing more Warpaints in 3 weeks. I'll have to wait until the next time I call to ask about the San Franciso thing, I didn't read that message from Tom until after I talked to Kevin. I doubt they have the money to go though. Welcome again Geoff! Martin, thanks for the 1st4 impressions. Keep it up! So you don't feel all alone, my first Rearmament had a blank b-side, and Harry's Rearmament also had a blank a-side. That album always seems to be the one jinxed. Think of it this way, you still have some "new" (unheard) songs coming. Kevin is aware of your situation and he'll get another Rearmament in the mail to you. Glad I'm not the only one who had trouble with "Box HAP" :-) I love the lyrics, always have. That sound drives me up the wall though. I'm more tolerant now than I used to be, but I still fast-forward through it at least half of the time. I used to ff *all* of the time, so it's grown on me. Stephen, glad you got Warpaint so quickly. I think Happy's spiritual references would make for a thread in itself and I'll keep Chris away from the keyboard (he likes Happy, but thinks her belief system is pure dingbat). Later... Vickie ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 26 Oct 91 17:33:37 -0500 From: foster@magnum.convex.com (Harry Foster) Subject: There's a growing force of people who care Hello Happy-Hounds :) Kevin and Happy are sooo wonderful. I hope I don't bore you, but I would like to share my most recent H&K episode. It's so rare to find an artist with that personal touch .... Big business could take note on customer satisfaction. A couple of weeks ago I ordered the Ecto and Rearmament tapes. Well, the Rearmament tape had a problem (missing side B and side A was recorded on side B). I sent it back, and at the same time ordered Vol I & II. Kevin sent me the tapes with the following reply: =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Dear Harry, Please accept my apologies for the dub screw-up. You're right "Nobody's human!". They're duped in the exact same room where the phone and office are. Makes for less than concentrated work sometimes. Someday these suckers will be on CD and this problem will be minimalized. So ... sorry. I have re-copied your tape and put the correct labels on the correct sides. I'm writing this before I make Rhodes I and II. I will personally triple check them. We just got a distributor in Dallas. (Big State). I believe they service all the warehouse stores. So if people are looking for Warpaint in places other than Sound Future, hopefully it'll be findable. Thanks for your support and belief. You're OUR #1 fan in Dallas. We've been auditioning players as of late to get our live thing in gear. We hope to hit a stage or two in Dec. We'll keep you posted either on "Ecto" or by mail. Once again, thanx for your patience with the Aural G. Studio / office / cat hang out / warehouse space / shipping dept. All the Best, KB ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 26 Oct 91 20:23:43 EDT From: The Cat's Sister - Merow Subject: nothing in particular last night while watching _The Serpent and The Rainbow_ for the second time this week, and getting scared out of my mind for the second time this week I noticed an interesting thing in the credits....The Voices of The Dead were done by Diamanda Galas. I thought that was way cool - who better to do Zombie/Dead person Voices :) does anyone know if Rocketman is going to be released as a single - I saw the cd in the store the other day but i dont know if i want to buy the whole thing. Also....i finally finished my Happy inspired Dragon/monster drawing - which actually is a mixture between a giant segmented worm and a anorexic (or however you spell that word) dragon. Im trying to see if i can get someone to scan it for me...but who knows... Well im outta here - off to Montreal tomorrow --YIppie-- BTW isn't there and Ectoian from Ottawa on here??? I usually go to Ottawa 4 or more times a year and it would be wild to meet other ectoites. kIrI ----------------------------------- She turned off the light and started to sing Here come the cowboys riding on their ponies They go out to the prairies to round up all the cattle Then they come back to the ranch house and put away their ponies then they go in to the bunkhouse and then they go to sleep heyup heyup heyup ----------------------------------------------- ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 26 Oct 91 18:25:29 PDT From: stevev@greylady.uoregon.edu (Steve VanDevender) Subject: Happy & Kevin's personal touch I had good luck with my cassette and CD orders, and I certainly appreciate being able to write directly to Happy to order her music. When I ordered Vols. I and II, I wrote a little letter saying that I had heard about her on Love-Hounds, and got the tapes and a catalog back. When I ordered Rearmament and Ecto, I wrote saying how much I liked Vols. I and II, and got an autographed Warpaint postcard back: Steve-- Thanks for your kind words Happy Rhodes So when I ordered Warpaint, I wrote again saying that I liked her answers to the interview that was posted in Ecto over a month ago, and got back a short letter on Aural Gratification stationery: Dear Steve Thanks for your continued support, and I hope you enjoy Warpaint. Take Care, Happy Rhodes Happy has really elegant handwriting, too. ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 26 Oct 91 22:16 CDT From: katefans@chinet.chi.il.us (Chris n Vickie) Subject: Kate reference on Mystery Science Theater 3000! Vickie and Chris here. We're brushing ourselves off after rolling on the floor. Did anyone else in America see Mystery Science Theater 3000? They just mentioned Kate Bush. Since gaffa is down again, we just had to tell you KB fans on Ecto. For those who my not be familiar with it, MST3K is (IOHO) the funniest show on TV. An average guy, Joel Robinson worked at the Gizmonic Institute. His evil scientist bosses decided to shoot him into space and observe the effects of a steady diet of terrible movies on his mind. Stuck on "The Satellite of Love" he builts robots to keep him company, Tom Servo, Crow, Gypsy and Cam-bot. So this week the Evil Scientists showed him a Roger Corman film called "The Saga of the Viking Women and their Voyage to the Waters of the Great Sea Serpent". As usual Joel, Crow and Tom Servo appeared in silhouette at the bottom of the screen making wise cracks, making new words the the music, etc. The comments range from dumb groaners to sheer brilliance, with many references to other films, music and comedy bits. It's hard to describe. Well, this particular bad film had a group of blonde Viking Women standing and throwing spears at a tree to vote on going out to find what happened to the ship that all their men sailed off in so long ago. Well, the only dark-haired women stepped forward to throw her spear to cast the deciding vote, and Crow said "Look, it's Kate Bush!" and Joel said "Mm-m-m, Hounds of Love." We didn't hear any other references for the rest of the film. Good too, because she turned out to be one of the bad guys. :-) Talk about finding Kate in strange places! This one is even odder than the nice bit about her in the second-rate men's mag "Genesis". Even more surprising than the Playboy Playmate-of-the-Month who listed Kate as one of her favorite artists. Even more unexpected than her being listed in Saturday Review's "Most Underrated Artists" list. We're going to write them and give 'em a thanks! Someone on the staff is obviously a fan.... Vickie'n'Chris ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 27 Oct 91 01:47:16 PDT From: stevev@greylady.uoregon.edu (Steve VanDevender) Subject: Kate reference on Mystery Science Theater 3000! I saw the "Teen Idols" show they had in place of "Beverly Hills 90210" last week (I am compelled to say that I am not a 90210 fan; the only whole show I ever watched was the one with the kid with the wheelchair to see if they screwed up his character) and one thing that got my attention was when they were asking all the current teen idols who their idols were. Some girl with dark hair pulled back whose name I never saw (but who I assume was supposed to be a current teen idol) said her idol was Kate Bush. At that point I wished I had paid a little more attention; the only other times I tuned in was to see what Corin Nemec and Billy Jayne (stars of "Parker Lewis Can't Lose") said. ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1991 22:12 +8:00 From: SVODOPIER@cc.curtin.edu.au Subject: Re: Number vs Gesture (was: Keyboards vs Vocals) Jorn writes: >>>i see digital art similarly, as: do you have the patience and discipline to >>>break a gesture down into numbers, test it, and refine it. which is a far >>>cry from the energy of the hoe-down bar-band, which is what music is *for*, >>>surely. I query: >>Seriously, what exactly do you mean by this last bit? Jorn expands: >do i really think music is for communicating exhilaration? yeah, i think >so. i could change my mind in the face of a good counterexample though. >there are subtler forms of exhilaration, but it's always about learning to >be loose in ways you weren't loose before...? Hmmm... interesting topic, this. I need to think about it. I can't think of a good counterexample. I agree music communicates emotion, or "exhilaration". The exhilaration for the player comes mostly from applying the body to an instrument and thereby achieving "form" of some kind. For the listener, though, I'd say the exhilaration derives purely from the "form". Some music can be a hell of lot of fun to play even though it sounds awful, simply because of the actual physical act of making it. So I guess I don't agree with your last bit. Appreciation of music can be a fairly intellectual thing... the exhilaration one gets may not correspond at all to what the performer felt. Especially because of the amount of personal emotion involved... So I don't have any problem with sanitized, broken-down and built-up digital art... if a middle-rate musician can use techniques like that to perform at virtuoso standards then all the better. Sure the person may only be a "plodder", musically, but it's the end result that's important. But hey, I'm a computer scientist... synthesizing real life is my bag. :-) err... so what was the question again...? :-) Hope I haven't drifted too far from the point of all this... I've had very little sleep lately, and somehow I don't think now is a good time for me to be rambling about such esoteric things. BTW, Jorn, sorry for replying directly as well as via Ecto, but I'm using a brain-dead VMS mail program via about four computers and a 300 baud modem and it's not a pretty sight... wierd things need to be done... Later, Martin (pick a sig, any sig you like, as long as it's a J.J.Cale one) ,------------------------------+----------------------------. _ . | Went down to New Orleans | Martin Dougiamas. | ~ _r' Ll\ ~ | Had myself a ball | sdougiama@cc.curtin.edu.au | | \ ~ | The ladies there, they don't | Curtin University | ~ \ ._ / ~ | care, they don't care at all.| Perth, Western Australia --+---> x~ `-' ~ `========== J.J. Cale =========+============================' ~ V ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1991 22:34 +8:00 From: SVODOPIER@cc.curtin.edu.au Subject: Re: Number vs Gesture (was: Keyboards vs Vocals) Hiya. My, isn't ecto getting philosophical? :-) Doug says (in part): > In spite of that, I will say there is a case for user interfaces on >electronic instruments. However, I am convinced that fancy user interfaces are >the computer equivalent of training wheels on a bicycle. They are a great help >to get you started, but once you've gotten the hang of it they merely get in >the way. User interfaces always limit the choices and capabilities for the >equipment or software they hide. Well, of course they do. Everything is a user interface. You listen to music using a user interface (your ears). You communicate with other people using a user interface (language, touch etc). Everything we ever experience can only be an approximation. > However, the ideas an artist wants to express are not limited to a small, >well-defined conceptual world. The better the artist, the more she wants to >bust any boundaries of her world. She will want to use the instrument in ways >no one else has before! How can that be expressed in a user interface? One >way or another, the artist has to learn the instrument as thoroughly as >possible to fully express her ideas. Any interface has to get completelyl out >of her way. Well, of course, you're talking about direct brain-brain communication. But if you're saying that the interface of a "raw" electronic instrument is sufficient to fully express one's ideas, and that this interface is not optimally intuitive (ie takes a long time to learn), then doesn't it follow that another, more intuitive interface could be sufficient to express at least the same range of ideas? > Penny Two: This is an ancient pet peeve...[about separatism] Me too. >People in this mailing list should be especially wary of this, >given the near impossibility of putting Happy's music into a neat little >labelled box. I have. In a box labelled "Happy". :-) Happy to be in the box with all of you, Martin ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1991 23:40 +8:00 From: SVODOPIER@cc.curtin.edu.au Subject: Re: Martin meets The Holy Ghost Hi! Here's yet another piece of verbosity from me (when will I ever learn?). Vickie asks: > What's "textra"? "texta" must be an Australian brand name. Like Kleenex. You might call them markers. They come in packets of many, with each one a different colour ink. Little kids usually use them for "colouring in". I'm sure you know what I mean. Anyhow, it was probably the best thing to use when writing on a cassette cover. >Has your sister heard them yet? What does she think? What's your >sister's name anyway? Let's get her involved. Her name is Katie. She's a very serious and pretty young lady of seventeen. (4th November, 1974, Scorpio) Yes, she has heard the 1st4 now. First impressions were of the sameness of them all, but second impressions are quite different. When her exams are over I might get her onto Ecto. As it is I've just been telling her about it. She's been going to sleep to them now every night. As have I. I've got Vol1/Vol2 on one 100min tape and Ecto/Rearmament on another. We swap them over every few hours or so. Actually, I loaned Vol1/Vol2 to my parents to listen to in their car when they went out to a dinner party on Saturday night. They liked it, and took it inside and played it to the hosts after dinner. :-) I have cool parents. >Martin, I can't wait until you start picking favorites. >Be sure to let us know. I'll post a listing of my "Best of..." tape when I figure it out. I suspect it'll be nothing like the SiG show (hint hint nudge nudge :-) or Angelos' tape. >Do you hear Happy's voice in the beginning echos of Drears? Nope. I listened for it but heard nothing but hiss in the background. Which reminds me, they ARE recorded rather low. It seems to me they'd get better performance out of the tapes if they were recorded at a higher level. > Wait until you sit down and read the lyrics along with Wretches. Yes I will. :-) Oh just one more thing... (jeez I can dribble on) yesterday I had one of the early songs from Side 2 of Vol.1 on in my room, (not sure which one, I haven't got the tracklist here) and a neighbour had "Spotlight" by Madonna on fairly loud, loud enough so I could hear the drums of Spotlight intruding upon the Happy song. The wierd thing was the drum pattern matched perfectly!! For the whole song! It actually ENHANCED the song... So when I get time I might try dubbing some drum tracks over a selection of Happy songs and making an album of "Dance Remixes" :-) Now that would be interesting. BTW, whatever happened to the Ecto-band? Did that just fizzle out? Righto, that's enough from me, I'm off. Hope I didn't overflow your mailboxes... :-( Martin ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 27 Oct 91 12:16 EDT From: Subject: vicki: i see now why you put me down as a 'mason'. to be honest, i have traits of both taurus and gemini in my nature (as anyone who knows me well can attest to...) =) now that i know what station you're on, WHEN are you on? i seem to have forgotten that important bit of information... =) and is there a phone number at the station in case my friend wants to call you during your show? to anyone: can anyone send me a complete list of all the albums done by bananarama and the years? i am in the process of acquring all of their cd's now... michy (sans .sig because i don't know how to do it!!) ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1991 11:47:58 -0600 From: Brian Bloom Subject: Re: There's a growing force of people who care KB mentioned a distributer in Dallas? Hmmm... If I could find out who, I can hit some of the stores around Austin and try to get them to start carrying Happy. Can anyone get that info? 'Oh Happy day!' __ ____ __ ____ __ __ (__==__) /\ \ / \_\ / /\ / \ \ / |\ / /\ (oo) ( moo.) / \_\ / /\ |_| / / /| /\ \ \ / ||/ / / /-------\/ -' / /\ | |\ \/ /_/_ / / / \ \/ \ \ / |/ / / / | U.T.|| / \/ |_| \ __ \_\ /_/ / \ /\ \_\ / /| / / * ||----|| / /\ ./_/ \ \ \/_/_\_\/ \ \ \/_// / | / / ^^ ^^ \ \/ |_| \ \_\ /_/\ \ \_\ /_/ /|_/ / Br!an Bloom \__/_/ \/_/ \_\/ \/_/ \_\/ \_\/ brianb@natinst.com ======================================================================== From: foster@magnum.convex.com (Harry Foster) Subject: Re: There's a growing force of people who care Date: Sun, 27 Oct 91 12:06:35 CST Hi Brian, > > KB mentioned a distributor in Dallas? Hmmm... If I could find out who, > I can hit some of the stores around Austin and try to get them to > start carrying Happy. Can anyone get that info? > > 'Oh Happy day!' > I believe he is referring to Big State Record Distributing Co. Their address is 4830 Lakawana, Dallas TX. Also, their phone number is (214) 631-1100. Of course, there is also a Big State Meat Co., Big State Freight Lines Inc., Big State Auto Supply, Big State Pawn and Bargain Centers, ... Have a nice day ! :) :) :) -- Harry Foster foster@convex.com "A man should be greater than some of his parts." -Peter DeVries ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1991 12:25:09 -0600 From: Brian Bloom Subject: Re: There's a growing force of people who care Are you, by any chance, from the 'Big State'? If the store was interested in Happy's music, would they be able to just contact the distributer or would they have to deal with Aural Gratification directly? How does one go about getting a music store to carry a label they hadn't before? My goals, for any other Austinites that want to help in trying to sway the stores: Waterloo Records Tower Records Technophilia and maybe Sound Exchange __ ____ __ ____ __ __ (__==__) /\ \ / \_\ / /\ / \ \ / |\ / /\ (oo) ( moo.) / \_\ / /\ |_| / / /| /\ \ \ / ||/ / / /-------\/ -' / /\ | |\ \/ /_/_ / / / \ \/ \ \ / |/ / / / | U.T.|| / \/ |_| \ __ \_\ /_/ / \ /\ \_\ / /| / / * ||----|| / /\ ./_/ \ \ \/_/_\_\/ \ \ \/_// / | / / ^^ ^^ \ \/ |_| \ \_\ /_/\ \ \_\ /_/ /|_/ / Br!an Bloom \__/_/ \/_/ \_\/ \/_/ \_\/ \_\/ brianb@natinst.com ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 27 Oct 91 19:19:23 GMT From: Stephen Thomas Subject: Questions tugging the edge of my mind... You know, folks, Warpaint is damned addictive. Today I was grading about 100 undergraduate assignments, so I put it on to pass the time, although who needs an excuse :-). I played it through 4 times. It's actually great music to work to. Anyway, does anyone (Vickie, Jessica, perhaps?) have, on file somewhere, some information on what Happy's songs mean - or to be more accurate, what her motivations in writing them were? You see, she seems to be describing a rather unusual worldview in her work, but one that I find very familiar. If there is any information about that worldview, I would be very interested in looking at it. It's almost impossible to believe that the person singing in the lower registers is the same as the one singing in the higher, where she does indeed sound like Kate - so much so that I have to keep reminding me that it isn't. Some parts faintly remind me of All About Eve, too. Keep well, all. Stephen ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 27 Oct 91 17:56:49 CST From: vishal@ra.csc.ti.com (Vishal Markandey) Subject: subscribe Hi, I'd like to subscribe to "Ecto" please. Would appreciate the daily digest. Thanks! - Vishal ======================================================================== To join ecto, please send electronic mail to the following address: ecto-request@athos.rutgers.edu To have your thoughts included in the next issue, send mail to: ecto@athos.rutgers.edu To subscribe to "Ecto", the printed fanzine, send $8 to: Ecto PO Box 11291 New Brunswick, NJ 08906 Ecto is issued 8 times/year, and will include photos and as much material from non-net members as we can get! Donations above the subscription cost are welcomed - all money goes to bringing you better issues! Your "humble pseudo-moderator" -- jessica (jessica@athos.rutgers.edu)