Errors-To: ecto-owner@ns1.rutgers.edu Reply-To: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu Sender: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu From: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu To: ecto-request@ns1.rutgers.edu Bcc: ecto-digest-outbound@ns1.rutgers.edu Subject: ecto #862 ecto, Number 862 Sunday, 14 November 1993 Today's Topics: *-----------------* Re: Love-Hounds Digest #9.292 Re: resisting the urge... RE: DCD recommendations? Re: Two things Re: skewed perceptions Re: We really do Ectoplasm spreading Re: Fearless (the movie) RE: How to listen... Re: EctoPoll Re: skewed perceptions ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 13 Nov 93 4:31:27 EST From: WretchAwry Subject: Re: Love-Hounds Digest #9.292 I'm cross-posting this to Ecto since the thread continued there too. (Ectophiles will see a side of me I never show there) > From: henrik@husc.harvard.edu > > Vickie's diatribe about artists not trashing their own work reminded me > more than anything else of Annie Wilkes in _Misery_. What a stupid comparison. If I remember correctly (I haven't seen the movie and it's been years since I read the book) Annie didn't want the author to kill off Misery and create new, unrelated works. She forced the author to create a new book featuring Misery to please *her*. ^^^ a) I'm more than willing to follow my favorite artists into areas they want to explore. I may like it, I may not, but I salute change and don't mindlessly trash it just because it's "different" or not like something else they've done in the past. b) I understand (duh, really) that artists, true artists, grow and change and are very often unhappier with early works than current works. If Kate thought TKI and Lionheart said it all, she wouldn't have gone on to create NFE and TD. c) Artists criticizing their own work and seeing problems and wishing they could have done things differently is one thing (I have no problem with those things) but my main "diatribe" was about The Cocteau Twins, who mindlessly trash the album _Treasure_ simply because music writers then used it to label the band as an airy-fairy ethereal band, and because current music writers always bring it up. These interviews and rants by the band have little to do with the music on the album, and more to do with the band's "image." It just seems to me that the band is turning their wrath in the wrong direction and instead of telling the interviewers to shove it, prefer to trash the album. Kate has the same problem with interviewers who would prefer to talk about how WH made her a dancing sex symbol pre-Raphelite record company daughter witchy screeching entity, than about her current work. Kate seems to handle that sort of thing a lot better than CT. She has said that she's tired of talking about WH, as well she should be. She has said that she's unhappy that Lionheart was so rushed, which is certainly understandable. Still, she's refrained from cutting through both albums with a verbal machete. So far she's only used a paring knife :-). d) Excuse me all to hell for having thoughts, feelings and opinions, but I still think that if the band *really* thinks that Treasure sucks big hairy rocks now, then it *must* have sucked big hairy rocks when it was recorded and released, and it should have been put on the shelf. If they were contractually obligated to release it when they were unhappy with it, then I would have seen at least some interviews at the time where they trashed it as hard as they do now. Funny, but I don't recall reading anything of the sort. Treasure got me into CT, I bought everything they'd previously released and I've bought everything they've released since (first on vinyl, then again on CD) and have read dozens of articles. I've never gotten the sense that the band was unhappy with the album at the time they released it. They're not trashing Treasure because of the music, tied in with their growth as "artistes," they're trashing their old image. What the hell, they were an airy-fairy ethereal band then, and they're an airy-fairy ethereal band now, no matter how much they rail against Treasure or Liz sings in English. I love their music, I'll always buy anything they release, and Treasure will always be my favorite album. I won't read any more interviews, and I'll buy their albums used because I just happen to think they're being dickheads about the whole thing. Now, is that ok with you larry, or do you have more input on how I should think or feel, or any more psycho bitch neurotics you'd like to compare me with? e) The bottom line is, artists can do anything they damn well please, on record or in print, and I as a fan have to deal with it in whatever way I damn well please. > Perhaps the only thing more infuriating than Vickie's insistence that > artists should not criticize their own work (for fear of hurting fans' > feelings) I *infuriated* you? Surely you must have better things to do than read things I write, read into them things I didn't write, and compare me to a sadistic, psychotic fictional character. You don't even know me, you silly thing. Btw, why am I getting lectured and compared to Annie Wilkes when we're completely surrounded by people who disagree with what *Kate* is doing on TRS? Sheesh! > ...borders on psychosis. Where'd I leave that axe...? Vickie (who should know better than to dignify this post with an answer) "Oh my god it's a jungle in here..." KT ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 13 Nov 93 5:02:02 EST From: WretchAwry Subject: Re: resisting the urge... M JMs: > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Alex Gibbs: > |I personally can't get into this song-by-song analysis, at least not > |at this stage. I think it's because I'm still forming my own opinions > |or maybe because I'm obsessive enough without doing that! :) I'm not > |sure. Maybe it's because I know we will all feel differently anyway. > |Also, something about dissecting it into pieces and actually grading > |the pieces sort of bugs me. Am I alone in this? > > This is a good point and I think it underscores peoples basic need > to categorize, compartmentalize, pigeonhole, and get a "handle" > or control over things. It happens everywhere. Our society is rife > with this. And, I think it is human nature to try to deconstitute > complex entities into easily identifiable pieces. I just wanted to say that I really liked this post and I agree with almost everything (I've never actually sat in a chair at Wayne's house listening to stuff played over and over. Oh, and TSW and ETM have never left me cold.) > Well, politics is perhaps slightly more quantifiable than > music. I mean, God forbid I should listen to TRS 20 times > consecutively and *still* not know *exactly* how I feel > about each and every track. For myself, I know that > each time I hear, I react a little differently, based on factors > to numerous to enumerate: Where am I when I listen? > What mood am I in? Is it daytime? Morning? Nighttime? > Am I in bed? In the shower? Eating lunch at work? > Driving to a party? Leaving a lecture? We all listen > to music all the time in so many different contexts, > it's impossible to have the same reaction every single time. YES! Vickie ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 13 Nov 93 5:05:07 EST From: WretchAwry Subject: RE: DCD recommendations? Johnny recommends: > I suggest that you start with "Under The Realm..." > Then the latest... > Then "The Serpent's Egg" > Then "Spleen and Ideal" > Then "Aion" > Then the first one... Sounds good to me too. "Under The Realm..." is also my favorite. Vickie ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 13 Nov 93 5:29:10 EST From: WretchAwry Subject: Re: Two things SteveF Macs: > ezust@binkley.cs.mcgill.ca (Alan Ezust) wrote: > >[In message "South African Music" on Nov 10, prat writes:] > >| Hiya'll! > >| > >| Do y'all get much South African music out there? There is quite a > >| bit of local stuff that i think you'd like if you enjoy Kate Bush > >| like Lesley Rae Dowling and Little Sister. Hi prat! Welcome to Ecto! (It was nice talking to you on IRC the other night) Please tell us about Lesley and LS. > ... stuff deleted ... > > >I was exposed to Clegg as well as Jennifer Fergusson... While i was > >living in Harare for a year, I made the occasional jaunt to Joh'burg and > >Cape Town. Fergusson is definitely ecto-style music, which would appeal to > >many people on this list. I definitely agree Alan. I've always been envious of you, being the only person in North America with a Jennifer Fergusson album :-) > There was a Jennifer Fergusson track on Vickie's (first?) Femme Music > Collection sampler. I can't offhand remember the name of the track (please > come to my rescue here, Vickie! :-)), but it was one of the standout pieces > of that collection for me. Yes, it's the song "Suburban Hum" and was from a compilation album featuring many different SA musicians. The album is called "Forces Favorites" and that was the only song by Jennifer on it. I'm glad you liked it Steve. I get chills and tears every time I listen to it. > I'd certainly be interested in getting a CD of > hers, especially if it had that track on it. Me too! I only have the LP of Forces Favorites, and though Jennifer's is the only song I really like on the compilation, I'd rebuy it on CD in a second, just for that song. Though I'd prefer an entire album by Jennifer anyway. Vickie ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 13 Nov 93 6:07:47 EST From: WretchAwry Subject: Re: skewed perceptions NeAl makes an impression: > Seems to me that if anyone is > worried about having there perceptions skewed (or screwed) by reading > others people's opinions prior to listening to the album, they can > just skip over that section. It's not like the song-by-song analysis > is subtly hidden in other posts. They tend to stand out quite clearly. > Besides, I enjoy hearing what other people think of the songs, and if > someone interprets songs in a way that never occured to me, I might add > it to my view, but I doubt I'll be replacing it with my opinions prior > to forming any > (although you never know, sometimes I can be rather > impressionable). Well, I'm *deeply* impressionable, and I don't know *what* I think until I hear other people's opinions. I see the light through other people, and I know now that: ETM and Rubberband Girl suck big hairy rocks TRS just *isn't* the Kate I know and love Prince is a no-talent dud who shouldn't even be on the same *planet* as our beloved Kate. Trio Bulgarka are really annoying The booklet has just *got* to go And So Is Love and Moments of Pleasure are trite to the max Kate shouldn't say "bullshit" - ever Constellation of the Heart, Big Stripy Lie, Why Should I Love You and You're the One are all appallingly bad Lily is ok, but she shoulda sang about people we've *heard* of The title track is pretty darn good, I think. Maybe. Oh yeah, and I now know that TSW is Kate's biggest dissappointment to date, that "Reaching Out" is the worst song ever recorded, and that "Experment IV," "Rocket Man," and "Candle in The Wind" make me cringe. Gee, maybe now I can be a *real* Love-Hound!! A *real* Katefan! WOW!! Vickie ps, insert whatever symbol for sarcasm you prefer, to hell with smileys pps, just in case, *don't* take this post seriously! ppps, this is not directed at you personally, Neal *HUG* pppps, It's a joke. Other people's opinions aren't going to change my own. I nod my head when I read things I agree with, snort with derision when I read things I disagree with, absorb bits and pieces that may help me appreciate certain songs better, and delete or save opinions depending on my mood at the time. Most of all, I try to keep my *own* big mouth shut, or else I'll be involved in flame wars that will last until the next Kate album. (That's not meant to imply that I think others have big mouths or that they should keep them shut, just that I personally am tired of defending songs I love and I know how much trouble I can get myself into by trying.) ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1993 04:07:45 -0700 From: "Alex Gibbs" Subject: Re: We really do Mitch : > Another, admittedly more off-the-wall suggestion: For all its faults, the > Conan O'Brien show does showcase the likes of Bjork (anyone catch her appear- > ance there last night?) and the Cranberries. It remains an outlet worth Yeah, the show's got lots of faults. I get tired of his bounciness for one. I thought Bjork's performance was great and he actually interviewed her for more than 10 seconds, unlike Dave ever would have done! I've only heard two songs from the album, both from MTV, and like them a lot. ("Venus As A Boy" and "Human Behaviour") From what I hear it sounds like it's worth getting. She gives off the *impression* of being very young, almost child-like, not that that is bad necessarily :). How old is she? I never got into the Sugarcubes so I don't know much about her. --- AlexGibbs arg@kilimanjaro.opt-sci.arizona.edu |\| | (~, |-| ~|~ |-| /-\ \/\/ |< "Without the pain there'd be no learning. \ / Constellation of the Without the hurting we'd never change." /`\ Heart "Have you ever seen a picture of Jesus laughing? Mmm, do `\ Why Should I you think He had a beautiful smile? A smile that healed." `\ Love You? ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1993 04:17:32 -0700 From: "Alex Gibbs" Subject: Ectoplasm spreading I taped Warpaint for a distant VA College DJ friend (Mary Washington College) and put some more unsual Kate on the remainder of the other side. He seemed to like it a lot, and it's too bad he's not on the air again until next spring. He's in Lovetsville now and I've only met him over the net. I'm really not familiar with the area. Anyway, he gave the tape to someone he knows who is a big Kate fan and owns a record store... so maybe there will be another store with Happy! I don't know which store myself. He's netless now. As Vickie said, "say goodbye to that tape." Let's hope so! :) --- AlexGibbs arg@kilimanjaro.opt-sci.arizona.edu |\| | (~, |-| ~|~ |-| /-\ \/\/ |< "Without the pain there'd be no learning. \ / Constellation of the Without the hurting we'd never change." /`\ Heart "Have you ever seen a picture of Jesus laughing? Mmm, do `\ Why Should I you think He had a beautiful smile? A smile that healed." `\ Love You? ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 13 Nov 93 6:30:17 EST From: WretchAwry Subject: Re: Fearless (the movie) MichaelC likes good movies: > I strongly reccommend that you all see the movie Fearless, directed > by Peter Weir, and starring Jeff Bridges, Isabella Rosellini and > Rosie Perez. This startling and moving story concerns the survivors > of a horrific plane crash. Definitely one of my top flms for the year. YES!YES!YES!!! Chris and I just saw it tonight (er, last night) and we were both overwhelmed by it. We cried and hugged and couldn't believe how powerfully it affected us. In a way, it's a bad movie to see at a theater, because it's the kind of film that makes you want to sit in silence and contemplate after the credits have stopped rolling. The lights coming up and people talking and employees rolling around trash barrells was not what we wanted to happen at all. We made it worse on ourselves too. We had bought tickets to a late show of "The Nightmare Before Christmas" and had to get downstairs and back up to the theater where it was showing. If we'd only known how powerful "Fearless" was we would have bought tickets the other way around. It's a very hard movie to describe without making it sound like a "disaster" film (which it isn't) or a "search for spirituality" film (which it is, but not in a way that's expected.) All I can say is that we highly recommend the film along with Michael. Jeff Bridges is *the* most underrated and undervalued American actor around. (IMHO, of course) > See _Fearless_!! You bet!! Vickie ps, we loved Nightmare...the visuals alone are worth seeing in a theater. ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 13 Nov 93 6:34:56 EST From: WretchAwry Subject: RE: How to listen... Emily (Hi!) has the answer: > Well, if the plural of "index" is "indices," would the plural of "Alex" be > "Alices"? They're alive...they're alive...and why? Because we let them be... Open their eyes, Alices arise. Roam the streets, invade their dreams... I *love* that song! Happy will be pleased to know that there are Alices on Ecto! Vickie ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 13 Nov 93 6:44:19 EST From: WretchAwry Subject: Re: EctoPoll DavidD is so cruel: > OK.. what's your *five* favorite Happy songs? Mail me your lists, > and I'll compile 'em like I did for the DIDs. I'm with SteveF, it's hard to pick 5 favorites from each album, let alone in total. 1. Oh The Drears 2. 'Til the Dawn Breaks 3. Off From Out From Under Me 4. Warpaint 5. Step Inside > Yes, I know, it's hard picking only five songs.. but be strong, > you can do it. :) Yes, but think of the mental toll it takes. Have you no pity? Vickie ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1993 04:45:52 -0700 From: "Alex Gibbs" Subject: Re: skewed perceptions WretchAwry : > NeAl makes an impression: > > > Seems to me that if anyone is > > worried about having there perceptions skewed (or screwed) by reading ... > > (although you never know, sometimes I can be rather > > impressionable). > > Well, I'm *deeply* impressionable, and I don't know *what* I think > until I hear other people's opinions. I see the light through > other people, and I know now that: > > ETM and Rubberband Girl suck big hairy rocks ... > The title track is pretty darn good, I think. Maybe. > > Oh yeah, and I now know that TSW is Kate's biggest dissappointment to > date, that "Reaching Out" is the worst song ever recorded, and that > "Experment IV," "Rocket Man," and "Candle in The Wind" make me cringe. > > Gee, maybe now I can be a *real* Love-Hound!! A *real* Katefan! WOW!! *LAUGH*! That is the mood I get there. > pppps, It's a joke. Other people's opinions aren't going to change my > own. I nod my head when I read things I agree with, snort with derision > when I read things I disagree with, absorb bits and pieces that may > help me appreciate certain songs better, and delete or save opinions As I mentioned in my first post, I think the most useful discussions are those that provide inisght into references, and hence allow the individual to dig deeper into the song if they want to. Interpretations of songs are fun to discuss as well, but are more subjective. Feeelings about songs are just plain subjective and it gets tiring hearing arguments over how someone should feel about a song. Feelings aren't right or wrong, they just are. Stating how one feels about a song is fine, but expecting others to agree is silly. Ecto loose mail is so much nicer than digest form! Hi Vickie! What the heck are we doing on at this hour... but what else is new! --- AlexGibbs arg@kilimanjaro.opt-sci.arizona.edu |\| | (~, |-| ~|~ |-| /-\ \/\/ |< "Without the pain there'd be no learning. \ / Constellation of the Without the hurting we'd never change." /`\ Heart "Have you ever seen a picture of Jesus laughing? Mmm, do `\ Why Should I you think He had a beautiful smile? A smile that healed." `\ Love You? ======================================================================== The ecto archives are on hardees.rutgers.edu in ~ftp/pub/hr. There is an INDEX file explaining what is where. Feel free to send me things you'd like to have added. -- jessica (jessica@ns1.rutgers.edu)