Errors-To: ecto-owner@ns1.rutgers.edu Reply-To: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu Sender: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu From: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu To: ecto-request@ns1.rutgers.edu Bcc: ecto-digest-outbound@ns1.rutgers.edu Subject: ecto #847 ecto, Number 847 Friday, 5 November 1993 Today's Topics: *-----------------* Concerto for Textual Revision: Third Movement--"Klausing on a Theme" Re: Those Red, Red Shoes! Bday (on time, this time :-)) RSI does not exist Peter Gabriel Re: Pulse DIDs The Red Shoes...a first impression Cream Ice Fear : nouns & verbs Re: Concerto for Textual Revision: Third Movement--"Klausing on a Theme" Today's your birthday friend.... Going to EurEcto Party? sounds like those red shoes again ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 5 Nov 93 04:09:04 EST From: mojzes@monet.rutgers.edu (brni) Subject: Concerto for Textual Revision: Third Movement--"Klausing on a Theme" hi there, as i sowed the seeds of dissent in the first place, it seems only fitting that i try to tie things back together again... > >Well, how can I resist? >brni writes :this is not a flame.... > and it wasn't. it was, however, a statement of disagreement, and i've seen such misconstrued as flames far too often on the nets. hence the disclaimer. >> i think that jeff already mentioned this, but i might as well >> chime in. i think that textual revisionism is a bad thing. >Know what? I don't. Because languaage is always changing. I'm more >of the view of the descriptionists, rather than prescriptionists. >Certainly, to be true to the spelling or text from which it was taken >may be important. But in the case of spelling womyn differently >it doesn't change the meaning at all, whereas in the case of the >egyptians being/or not being black-africans changes the meaning. > true, language is always changing. and if language moves to the point where womyn becomes standard, then it will have done so in the fashion that you, and many others, desire. (personally, i don't find it an appealing word: 1) it is constructed, but made to look like an old welsh word or something; 2) it's impact is negated in speech, where the pronunciation remains unchanged [it is the area of vocal text that is most commonly used, however]; 3) it is not easily amenable to a singular/plural distinction (as women/woman is)--i think of language as an organic machine, and that any lasting change will be organic, and i don't see "womyn" as an organic term.) however (and this is more to the point), i do not see already written text as changeable language. that is the sediment of language, that which has broken off from the organic machine of "living" language and has become inscribed in some form. every time we pick up a text, [hey, i just thought of a nifty analogy: written language is like coral reefs--it itself is not alive, but billions of creatures live in it, use it, and build on it] we reinterpret the meaning of the words and phrases and sentenses in ways that reflect the meanings of those words at the time of reading, and that reflect our historical knowledge of that text. if we alter the actual inscribed text, however, we erase history, and by doing so, alter the meaning of the text. this is the problem with EVERY translation of the bible, for example, and knowledge of this is the reason why translation of the koran from arabic was strictly forbidden. here is an example: suppose i am discussing civil rights with someone, and i claim that every person should be treated fairly, given equal treatment under the law, provided with equal opportunity to acheive her or his goal, and etc. a quote, then, from a famous document in US history, which reads "We hold these truths to be self- evident, that all men are created equal, that..." the historical knowledge that my interlocuter an i share let us know that 1)the people who wrote this were a patriarchal and slave-owning group, that 2) in the common usage of that time and extending to the present day indicates that this usage of "men" is to be understood as inclusive of all persons. were i to alter, due to my beliefs, the wording of quoted material, the integrity of my quotation, and thus, my own integrity, becomes suspect, even if i am careful not to actually change the meaning of the words as perceived. all of which is to say: we can and should alter how things are said and written in the present and future. we can, but should not alter that which has already been written. >I think change is a good thing, and I really don't see why changing >language (english) so that it isn't sexist is such a big deal. Why >is it such an 'evil' thing to do? > there was a time when, for the best of intentions, the church went around banning or altering texts, hoping to grant people eternal salvation. fortunately, the muslims had a greater value for the original text, and we have managed to reclaim much lost knowledge. changing language so that it isn't sexist *is* a big deal, and should be done. going back and editing the past to fit in with current ideals should not. >I'm just taking the 'men' out of womyn :) :) :) *grin* > i think that there is a place for men in women (who so desire it). ;> neither inclusion nor exclusion should be manditory. >Change happens. > >-seanympf the animated > ------------------------- > >From: jessica > >> I'm just taking the 'men' out of womyn :) :) :) *grin* > >should we change the word "human" to "humyn" too?? > >I usually avoid talking about "womyn" and other such terms. >In my mind, the use of the word "man" (and "men" too) to describe >all people regardless of sex, is perfectly reasonable. I >have no problem when people use it that way. I have no problem >with the terms "policeman" or "fireman". I don't think of >them as having *anything* to do with those people being male, >I think of them as being "person who polices" or "person who >fights fires". > and i'll disagree with this, as well. it seems strange to me that, addressing a group of, say, 20 women and 1 man, the proper pronoun is "he" or "his," as in, "each student should open his book to page 23." i think, also, that it is odd that in order to become properly respected in academia, women must become "fellows." someone already mentioned ways in which english can be used in grammatically correct and non-awkward ways to say what is meant, while still being gender neutral. this discussion appeared on the POLITICS list last week, and someone mentioned that, historically speaking, while "woman" is derived from "man," "man" has historically been an inclusive term, and that there was another term which meant "male human" which was also derivative of "man." it was later that "man" took on the dual role of "male human" and "inclusive human." i do not know any references for this. i will ask about it on POLITICS, but in the meantime (they get distracted by flame wars there), if anyone is well versed in linguistics and/or olde english, perhaps you can help me find a reference to check this out... ----------------------------- > >I just sent seanympf a rather grumpy reply to this, but I >consider her rationale for using "womyn" unsupportable. I don't >think it's a good idea to put words in the mouths of people of >the past, as if we can retroactively correct their mistakes and >thereby prevent ourselves from having to learn the lessons they >learned. > there is also a certain arrogance in assuming that "they made mistakes, but we aren't." to a certain extent that arrogance is unavoidable if one is to attempt to change anything in the world, but i think that we are best to remember that, just like the people of the past and the people in other parts of the world, we are but one historical moment. i'd also like to ask people to *please* not get grumpy. this is a sensitive and important topic that affects more than just virtual reality; it impacts on real people's real lives, and so people will have a natural tendancy be a little more forceful about their positions than might actually be necessary. >Why is it "evil" to try to change language? It isn't evil, but >it is arrogant to think that you can change it all by yourself. >Language reflects culture; changing language will not necessarily >change the culture. It is important to understand how people >actually use language rather than try to force everyone to use it >the same way, but it is also important to avoid capricious change >and encourage standardization so that we can understand each >other _and_ understand authors of the past. > language reflects culture only so far as culture reflects language. to change one is to change the other. >-- stevev the annoyed at fuzzy language and fuzzy thinking > ------------------------------ >firemen, humen, so what have you accomplished. I do like the idea of creating >nonsex (not nonsense) words, but haven't found an approach I like (though I >am always fond of turning things into -rons rather than -ers - waitron, >fightron, mothron). I also like a nonsex (and thus far nonexistant, at least >in terms of acceptance again) pronoun, which seems far more philosophycally(?) >important than womyn. I always thought the best campaign you could make for >one of those is to pick one that works well, and convince major authors, >producers, and musicians that it was a good idea. If it started appearing in >popular culture, it would start to catch on, regardless of whether congress >or Webster or anyone else agreed with the idea. > waitron, mothron, tron...the result sounds like you are addressing robots. the proper gender-neutral pronoun would then be "it." i think that what is more likely to happen is that more and more people will start saying and writing "his or hers" and "s/he" and so on, and that it will sort of evolve into some slang (similar to isn't spawning "ain't") that will eventually be found in websters... quick change (change from above) is generally doomed to failure as the backlash devours it. slow change is inevitable. (which doesn't mean that one stops trying to change--that is sort of a prerequisite to keeping it on track) >Of course, while I think the idea is noble, you have to keep taking it further, >to make language non-racist as well. And when you are all done with that, it >seems to me that so much of the descriptive quality of language is lost (and >much humour, as we get all PC (sorry bout that) jokes). > i'm not really convinced that english is racist in the same way that it is sexist. the sexism is a bit more fundamental. sure, there are all sorts of nasty words that exist non-caucasians, but there are also nasty words for caucasians. all that is on the surface. when people say "men" it is not like the non-inclusive form excludes black, asian or hispanic males. >Stevev says: >>>It is important to understand how people actually use language rather than try >>>to force everyone to use it the same way, > >But it's only through these kinds of changes, or suggestions of change, that >many people think about the nature of language. There are plenty of people >who never give it a moments thought, and even if the proposed changes aren't >accepted and the effort to force a use of language is attacked, it still >resulted in people thinking about the language itself. > i have less faith in the "common man." (sorry, couldn't resist ;->) i don't think that most people will think about language. they will say "its a PC conspiracy" and stop thinking altogether. >Neal ----------------------- > >I've never liked using a 'y' to spell woman, seems just too contrived. But >I also won't use the word 'policeman', instead choosing 'police officer'. >Fireman? Nope, fire fighter. Mailman? Letter carrier, postal worker. >There *are* alternatives that don't butcher spelling and are much more >inclusive. *I* know that 'policeman' is supposed to be a generic term that >includes both men and women, but I wonder if my 3 year old niece can >understand that? If she always hears 'policeman' she may assume that only >boys can grow up to be cops. > yes. this is exactly the sort of change that one can make that has direct and lasting impact without alienating the majority of people. it is, as a strategy of change, very useful and effective. it also changes the way one thinks (really--i'm not making this up). >But then, hey, I'm one of those radical lesbian feminists so I'm *supposed* >to advocate for gender-neutral language, it's part of our mandate, er, >womandate, er, persondate, yeah that's it! ;-) > yeah, yeah...how many pairs of birkenstocks to you own...that's the real litmus test... ;-) > Cathy Guetzlaff Cray Research, Inc. guetzlaf@cray.com th-th-th-that's all, folks! love brni ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 5 Nov 93 4:31:22 EST From: WretchAwry Subject: Re: Those Red, Red Shoes! Mortimer (he said I could call him that) Drewcifers: > Also, (to the folks on Love-Hounds) could we cool it on the TSW-bashing? > The Sensual World introduced me to Kate and, unlike many, it seems, I adore > it. We've heard it all before. Let's can it. Thanks. It won't do any good, saying things like that (TSW-bashers are very vocal) but you're not alone in loving TSW. I adore it too. Always have, always will. > A few other notes: pick up the new Concrete Blonde album (Mexican Moon). A > solid, skillful album. It makes up for a lack of truly remarkable songs > with an array of just plain terrific ones. Highly recommended, after just > one listen! Agreed again! Though I have favorite songs on all their albums, as a whole this one is my favorite. > The new Cocteau Twins isn't half bad either, although they > usually only appear when I need ambience, when I have a headache, or when > I'm burning candles. I'm mad at them and refuse to pay full price for this album. I'll wait until I see it used. I made the mistake of reading a recent article and they (Liz especially) wasted time and print space talking trash about the album _Treasure_. Why do artists do that? It's more than the fact that Treasure is what got me into CT, it's still my favorite album and I love it dearly. It has to do with artists being mature enough to accept what they've done in the past (they liked it enough to release it at the time. If it's such a "bad" album now, it must have been "bad" then and they shouldn't have released it if they weren't pleased with it) and not letting critics and interviewers shape their thoughts about it. So what if a**hole music writers keep bringing up the album as the one that gave the band (mainly *because* of music writers) a reputation as being an airy-fairy band? The band should be ranting against the critics, not the album. The album was what it was, it's what they were doing at the time, tons of people loved it, and the band went on to make other, different albums. Most of all, trashing an album that is loved by many people is parallel to trashing the fans who love that album. I completely lost all respect for Phil Collins long before he became a "character" mainly because he talked a lot of trash about the early Genesis albums he was involved in. Maybe it is frustrating to keep hearing people bring up the "old stuff" but when he called it all crap, it was a direct slap in the face to me personally. What I mean is that, to me, good music is good music no matter how old it is and he said something like "how can anybody still like that old shit?" I loved it then, I love it now, and I'll always love it. Not to mention that my Genesis fandom led me into so much other music, most notably, Kate (and from her, Jane, Happy, Tori, Sarah, and hundreds of others.) People still listen to Bach, right? It's "old stuff" too. (No, I'm not comparing early Genesis to Bach) I just think that artists should think about who they're affecting when they start trashing their "old stuff" because they're mostly affecting fans who supported them during the time they released the album they're trashing, and fans who discover the album(s) years later and get into the music. Kate came way too close to trashing her early albums in a recent interview and it made me very uncomfortable. She doesn't have to, intelligent people understand that those albums were recorded a *long* time ago and that each album added to the growth process. She couldn't have made TRS in 1978. She made TKI. It's there, forever, and many people loved it then and many people love it now. As far as _Lionheart_ goes, *I* love it, and I don't really care that it was rushed and pushed. If she could have had more time, she probably would have done some things differently. She didn't, and couldn't, and Lionheart is what it is, as is. There *are* people who love it, or much of it, and there's no need for her to go back and trash it. Ah well, I just hope she keeps that "load o rubbish" kind of talk to a minimum. (Ectophiles, I've had conversations with Happy about this and she has a great attitude about her early work. Not speaking for her, but I personally doubt we'd ever read/hear her trashing her early music.) So anyway, to end this rant, I just wish the Cocteau Twins would shut the F**K up about how much they hate Treasure. That's all. Vickie (who won't say a *word* about individual songs on TRS until I've heard it a few dozen times) ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 5 Nov 93 5:03:14 EST From: WretchAwry Subject: Bday (on time, this time :-)) HAPPY BIRTHDAY to Michael Sullivan!! Vickie ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 5 Nov 93 12:49:54 GMT From: Jeff Dalton Subject: RSI does not exist > I'll keep this short due to carpal tunnel and pesky wrist braces. Folks, if > your wrists are bothering you, GET TYPING PADS! Before it's too late. Since this has come up, it occurs to me that the following may be of interest: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- A British High Court judge has decided that RSI does not exist. Sufferers were "eggshell personalities who needed to get a grip on themselves." RSI was meaningless and had "no place in the medical books". He said the condition was more psychosomatic than physical and rejected a claim for dmamages. The judge accepts evidence from two (defsense) expert witnesses that RSI was meaningless and had no place in the medical books because it had no pathology -- no medically recognized symptoms which could be put down to a physical condition. (This is paraphrased from an article in the Nov 29th Guardian newspaper.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ordinarily, I'd just post this. But after seeing the response to my anti-SF / Heinlein posting, I decided that I'd better say explicitly that I do not agree with Judge Prosser. -- jd ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 05 Nov 93 09:24:54 CET From: Ilka Heber Subject: Peter Gabriel Hello everybody! Welcome to the list, Emily! C'mon - tell us the Peter Gabriel story!!!! = ) Actually, lucky me, I just saw the second concert of the Us-Tour last night in Mannheim. The hall was a bit aweful, but the concert was *fantastic*! As we sort of knew what happened on the stage (we saw a gig in Frankfurt in April) so we chose to stand in the middle between the two stages. I had a totally different view of the whole thing. The playlist was more or less the same, just that he sang "Family Snapshot" and, as a *wonderful* third encore "Here Comes the Flood" in German. He spoke a lot of German, too. I do think (honestly, Uli!) that this show was better than the Frankfurt one. Klaus, let me know what you'll think of Dortmund next week. Hey, did you all know that he's grown a beard (...if you care at all...)? Anyway, just wanted to let you know! Byeeeeeeeeeeeeee, Ilka = ) P.S.: *Hugs* to Vickie - it's great that you're back! = ) ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 4 Nov 93 22:07 EST From: robert@deepspace.nj00802.sai.com (Robert Lovejoy) Subject: Re: Pulse DIDs > Been there, done that! :-) It works. I suggested that about two years ago > when mine got printed, but either nobody sent theirs in or they didn't print > them. I *strongly* recommend that ectophiles try it out!! > > Angelos Come to think of it, I remember seeing "Warpaint" in the DIDs well before I found this list! That must have been yours! Wow! OK everybody, let's put on a show!! - er, wait, I am not Mickey Rooney - oh, um, OK - folks, if we all send in our DID list in the month of our birthday, that should keep a steady flow of Happyness rolling in to the Tower of Babylon (as well as Towers near You!). Whaddaya think, sirs? Oh, and speaking of MST3K- yeah, the new guy is fine. It's still funny. I enjoyed the bit where they cut into the cheese line... but I digress. Then again, mayhaps not, as the SciFi thread has sewn a mighty pattern on ecto. Next, the HiFi thread. I have a Sony consumer receiver hooked up to a pair of Allison One loudspeakers. It sounds very nice, but I wonder if it is PC to play the bass through the Hi Fi. Sure the walls shake and all, but one must be very careful not to blow out those coils. I had a Pioneer once, but it kept blowing out its power transistors even though I did not play bass through it. Friends with Sansui amps have had similar woes. My 13 year old son saw one of my old 45s yesterday. "Look at all the bumps in there!", he exclaimed, and I told him to put his hand on his throat and speak. He felt the vibrations, and I explained to him about sound waves, and how those undulations on the 45 were an analogue of the music's vibrations. Then he pointed out all the scratches, so he surely knows what makes records tick. Well, I love Sci Fi, but I hope starting a Hi Fi thread will be some solace to those ectophiles who do not relish the genre. On to those "bass notes of Doom!" (or was it bank notes of Doom?)... Yep yep. Bob, your uncle ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 04 Nov 93 21:40:40 CST From: kiri Subject: The Red Shoes...a first impression I've listened to the album 5-6 times. Nothing has really caught me yet. Besides the fact that someone forgot to tell Kate she's not 17 anymore, her voice sounds strained and estranged from the music - too much production? I've never heard her sound so disjointed from the music. I like Constellation of the Heart...groovy bass line. Why Should I Love You? is pretty awful, the bass line sounds like Micheal Jacksons Thriller ( a scary thought, no pun intended ). I love the lyrics, and the music, but I can't get past her voice...' IMHO it sounds truly awful in places.... I keep picturing the songs being sung by someone else and sounding much better. Maybe this will go away after a few more listens.... kiri ======================================================================== Date: 05 Nov 93 11:01:57 EST From: Mike Mendelson Subject: Cream Ice Fear : nouns & verbs |Of the 12 songs on F.T.E., only "Ice Cream" and "Fear" were not performed. |At the end of the song, Sarah was the first to leave the stage as |the band continued to play ... you knew she wasn't coming back again. |One by one, band members started to leave the stage until |drums and keyboard were left. And that was that. Omygod, what a total travesty... Ice Cream and Fear are just two of my favorite songs in the whole world (then again, the whol album is brilliant). But MMMMMMmmmmm, I hope she adds those songs in... they would make an amazing 1-2 punch encore. But I think Fear should come right before Possession, or FTE, no? "Love is better than Ice Cream" -mjm ======================================================================== From: guetzlaf@gravity.cray.com (Cathy Guetzlaff) Subject: Re: Concerto for Textual Revision: Third Movement--"Klausing on a Theme" Date: Fri, 5 Nov 93 10:52:50 CST brni cuts right to the chase: >yeah, yeah...how many pairs of birkenstocks do you own...that's the >real litmus test... None, but that's because I don't belong to the 'Earth Mother' branch of the Lesbian Nation. I'm a member of the 'Butch' branch (Jeffy, stop that laughing RIGHT NOW!). I own power tools and a chain saw (and know how to use them...) and a 4WD truck. When my Earth Mother friends need any household repairs done, they call me. I grab my leather tool belt and rush right over in my truck. After I'm done fixing what needs fixing, they feed me home-made granola bars and herbal tea while they show off their newest pair of colorful wool socks to wear with their birkenstocks and long flowing skirts. (with tongue planted firmly in cheek) I remain... Cathy Guetzlaff Cray Research, Inc. guetzlaf@cray.com ======================================================================== From: klaus@inphobos.wupper.de Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 07:38:00 Subject: Today's your birthday friend.... i*i*i*i*i*i *************** ***HAPPY******* ********BIRTHDAY*** ******************* ** Michael Sullivan *** *********************** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Michael Sullivan Mon November 5 1962 Scorpio Larry Nathanson Fri November 7 1969 Scorpio Jens Brage Sun November 8 1964 Scorpio Rising Lynn Garrett-KirchoffSat November 8 1958 Scorpio Ken Latta Sun November 11 1951 Scorpio Rob Craven Thu November 14 1974 Scorpio Elizabeth W. Warwick Sun November 15 1964 Scorpio Naama Avramzon Mon November 18 1974 Scorpio Jeff Smith Mon November 19 1962 Crash Kevin Bartlett Fri November 21 1952 Scorpio Alan Ezust Fri November 21 1969 Earth Moving Claudia Spix Wed November 23 1960 Schuetze Tommy Persson Wed November 25 1964 Sagittarius Pat Tessitore November 26 Sagittarius Justin Bur Fri November 27 1964 Sagittarius Sue Trowbridge Sun November 27 1966 Skytten Chip Lueck Thu December 5 1968 Sagittarius -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _____ Klaus Kluge * klaus@inphobos.wupper.de * I'll be here, I'll be (in) Ecto! ======================================================================== From: Yli-Krekola Perttu Subject: Going to EurEcto Party? Date: Fri, 05 Nov 93 19:39:00 eet Hi! I'm heading my Ectomobile towards Wuppertal on Saturday mourning next week. If anyone along the route (Scheveningen - Utrecht - Arnheim - Wuppertal) wants to come along drop me a note. Chris, Albert, Holly - are you coming? Karel, are you still in SF? - Perttu Perttu Yli-Krekola Rederserf 250, 2586 KJ Den Haag, The Netherlands ylikreko@ntcmar01le.ntc.nokia.com phone: +31 652 718272 ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 5 Nov 93 10:57:36 -0800 From: Michael G Peskura Subject: sounds like those red shoes again As woj has pointed out, the massive 3-tape HBP collection is impossible to listen to in one sitting (i played it one side at a time in the car) -- but it is WELL worth it! Good work, people. There are indeed a lot of talented people out there in fuzzy blue ectoLand. And Mitch's MC segues are great. (Loved the Joisy song, Mitch :) I'm really impressed by the range of music -- and the ectophile original recordings. Here's a hug for Meredith -- what a nightmare! The computer and the car hit by the forces of chaos in the same week. It really does pour down sometimes, doesn't it? Thanx for posting your TRS criticisms. This is some country, no? I suppose the reason you can't say 'bullshit' on the radio is to protect those tender, young ears. Hell, they can't hear it over the gunfire! :( ----- Michael Peskura -- University of Washington -- Seattle USA ======================================================================== The ecto archives are on hardees.rutgers.edu in ~ftp/pub/hr. There is an INDEX file explaining what is where. Feel free to send me things you'd like to have added. -- jessica (jessica@ns1.rutgers.edu)