Errors-To: owner-ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu Reply-To: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu Sender: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu From: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu To: ecto-request@ns1.rutgers.edu Bcc: ecto-digest-outbound@ns1.rutgers.edu Subject: ecto #493 ecto, Number 493 Thursday, 18 March 1993 Today's Topics: *-----------------* Re: your mail Re: HaPpY Birthdays Ecto Archaeology from times not long gone lighters... camera.... hairspray... fwooom! Some Notes 10K Maniacs Discussion, continued Happy Birthday well i meant to review it sig-file test Subject? No Pretense ======================================================================== From: boek@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au (Christopher Boek) Subject: Re: your mail Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1993 11:30:02 +1000 (EST) Bob Says ... > > Chris Down Under, the tapes are in the mail! By the way, please > forgive my ignorance, but what was the GST controversy you were > describing WRT John Hewson? Sorry to say I've been missing the > Radio Australia broadcasts of late as I now tend to gravitate to the > computer each morning to fetch my Ecto Digest! > Thanks again, this time publicly, for the tapes. I'd just like everyone to know that Bobbo (his words *:) ) is an extremely nice, helpful, friendly, generous, self|less etc etc ad infinitum person. As if you didn't already know *:) | | > +----> Bobbo the Hutt Just wanted to prove that *:) Oh the GST thing is just a consumption tax, a VAT or whatever you want to call it. Hewson wanted to introduce one, and has told us so for the last few years now. In the election campaign Keating jumped on it and used it as the sole thrust of his arguments. Since the opinion polls at the start of the campaign suggested a Hewson win, and Keating actually won, the media and the pollies have assumed that the GST was the main cause of the loss. If you ask me, people were after a change and so said early on that they'd vote for Hewson, but eventually the realised they wanted a change for the _better_, not _worse_, and so chose to maintain the status quo. Anyway, they'll still blame the GST, but I agree with Graham, that it was his draconian Industrial Relations policies (that us Victorians already have a very sour taste of thanks to good ol' Jeff Kennett) and his proposed cuts to public services like Health care were the real killers. Apparently the British papers are blaming the victory on Keatings supposed anti-royal sentiments. That, I'm afraid, is very silly. I'd say it was the last thing on people's minds. There was quite a great deal more to worry about than that. Chris. -- | ||| ||| | ||| ||| ||| | ||Christopher Boek - boek@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au | ||| ||| | ||| ||| ||| | || Dept Elec Eng Univ of Melbourne Australia | | | | | | | | | / "Anybody remotely interesting is mad in |___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___| \_/\_/\_/\_/\__/(:*- some way or another" ======================================================================== From: boek@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au (Christopher Boek) Subject: Re: HaPpY Birthdays Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1993 13:04:53 +1000 (EST) > > _ __ > / `-' ( ,,, > | I I ||||||[:::] > \_.-._( ''' > Hi Terry, Have I ever said how much I like these guitars. They sort of match my keyboard really *:) And I echo (ooh, sounds a bit like _ecto_) the birthday wishes for Graham and Barry. And I echo (ooh, sounds a bit like _ecto_) the birthday wishes for Graham and Barry. Just a little joke there :} Chris. -- | ||| ||| | ||| ||| ||| | ||Christopher Boek - boek@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au | ||| ||| | ||| ||| ||| | || Dept Elec Eng Univ of Melbourne Australia | | | | | | | | | / "Anybody remotely interesting is mad in |___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___| \_/\_/\_/\_/\__/(:*- some way or another" ======================================================================== Date: 17 Mar 1993 22:28:10 -0500 (EST) From: METH@delphi.com Subject: Ecto Archaeology from times not long gone Hi! In the spirit of Ecto Archaeology, I bring you the following (LONG)post... I had over 200,000 bytes of mail last night, what with ecto and RDT going nutso and people starting to talk about things in Love-Hounds again. And that was only two days. I say again, don't you people have anything better to do? ;) Mitch Mitches: }I hope our friends in the great American northeast are }succeeding in digging out of the Mother Of All Blizzards. I got to practice some Pinto Archaeology on Monday- the snow and ice combo Angelos described in Boston had also fallen on New Haven, and most of the ice came _after_ my car got plowed under. Thanks to the charity of neighbors and the availability of pick and shovel which I stole from my workplace, I am now driving again. I seem to remember storms worse than this when I was little in Maine, but since I was smaller, maybe the snow just looked deeper. :) }Here's wishing Meredith many happy hours of reading full-length }ecto posts on delphi. Not only does it give her all our }writings in their entirety, it even inserts bonus characters }into her own writings back at us :-). Yeah yeah, I know, I know. That's what you get when you try to telnet to a new system from a strange computer (thanks woj ;). It's weird- I didn't see those characters in the messages that were reflected back to me until I downloaded my mail and took the file to work to go through on the computer there. Sorry about that, all- hopefully it won't happen again. And Mitch, it's a pleasure to see the end of your posts again. :) }Does _Pulse_ have it in for college radio, or what? }At least, this issue seems to go to bat for alternative music on }college stations; an earlier issue, cited in the WESU program }guide, allegedly characterized free-form college radio as }unprofessional, sloppy, self-important and arrogant. As the old }labor song once said, which side are they on? Does it matter? At least in WESU's case, they're absolutely right. Drewcifer Drewcifers about "Anthem for Doomed Youth": }Of course, I'm sure you'll agree that the original poems were }better than the adaptations, especially in "Anthem's" case. Um, well, when you're adapting something to music you often have to fudge with it a little bit. I think Natalie did an admirable job. How many albums were you recording when _you_ were 19 (are you 19 yet? Insert your age here :)? }BTW, does anyone else like Hope Chest MUCH MUCH better than Our }Time In Eden (bleah)? I've already been over this, but yes. Not for the reasons you cite, though. }Except for Hateful Hate, I thought BMZ was absolutely brilliant }and their best album by far, followed closely by IMT of course. I now have _Blind Man's Zoo_ and _In My Tribe_ on CD (thanks woj :), and I've been rediscovering _BMZ_. It's better than I remembered, but it hasn't been living in the player since I got it either, so I don't retract anything I said earlier. ;) }> The Wishing Chair....wonderful! }But slightly anemic and colorless. WHAT????? "Scorpio Rising" is "anemic and colorless"? Oh, please. The album is a masterful blend of the traditional and the whatever-it-is-that-they-do, and they would do well to return to it someday, at least for the atmosphere. _Our Time In Eden_, I think, is a perfect case of good songwriting damaged by too-slick production. }> I thought Our Time in Eden was great! but that is just my }opinion...;-) }Abysmal trash. Natalie apparently forgot how to fit lyrics to }music to make a strong, appealing melody. Ouch. I strongly disagree with you on that point, but I can't say exactly why (maybe because Tori's "Precious Things" is assaulting my ears as I write this? ;). Believe me as you will, but there are some redeeming moments on this album. }The thing I loved about BMZ was the powerful songwriting, }something sadly absent from OTIE. I rue the day I ran out and }bought that (the day it came out). ... It shares Wishing Chair's }blandness, with none of the earlier work's fascinating lyrics. Go listen to "Jezebel" and "I'm Not The Man" again with the lyrics in your hand, and see if you still feel that way. }What IS Happy's range, anyhow? Um, over four octaves, I think. I may be wrong, though. Vickie suggests: }Angelos, I don't know the story behind the name Tirk. That's a }question for another time. Meredith can ask her when she }interviews her too. I'll be sure to put that on my list. I'll find out for sure next week if and when the new phone coupler will be installed at the station, and once I know what's going on with the technology I'll be able to call Susanne and set up a date. Get those questions ready, folks!!! I've had "Closer" in my head for the past two days. I can understand exactly how _Hamlet_ would inspire it, but of course I can't begin to put it into words. Hopefully those who know the themes of the play and the way in which Mel Gibson emphasized Hamlet's inner trauma in the film can figure out what I'm getting at... While listening to _Equipoise_ on my Walkman at the laundromat last night, I noticed a line that I'd missed before, in "Play The Game": "If I have to be pretty to be liked then I think I'm dead in the water" Geesh. For someone who's supposedly a legend in her own mind, isn't she being a bit hard on herself? Meredith Tarr 1.Oberleutnant, Happy Rhodeswehr meth@delphi.com "I know life is a relative term..." -HTR ======================================================================== From: depeche@binkley.cs.mcgill.ca (S. A. Ezust) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 00:01:40 EST Subject: lighters... camera.... hairspray... fwooom! [In message "I Don't Think It's That Simple" on Mar 17, Scorpii writes:] | Ignition. FLAMES? ON ECTO? ohmygod! This is like, totally unreal, fer shurr, like y'know?!? Mondo Bizarro. Ya know? | [In a previous msg, MJM writes: ] | > But my point is that they expand this isolated story into a | > cause, into a symbol, into a foil for the evils in the world. | > There is a dose of hyberbole in play here. And as I said | > originally a few days ago, and as Alan repeated, this type of | > pretention is virtually unavoidable when you are writing songs, | > and you want to impart some theme on your listener and achieve | > something meaningful to yourself. | | It is virtually unavoidable. It is not completely unavoidable. We dub | those who can avoid it "genius." And it is my fervent wish that this sort | of thing be left to those who are puissant, and that those who are not be | sent to do something about it besides write pretentious songs. Umm. Ok I must admit that I use the word pretentious a lot without really knowing the literal definition, but there are quite a few different definitions in the dictionary, ranging from the one presented before (making claims, explicit or implicit, to some distinction, importance, dignity or excellence), but there are others such as "showy, osentatious, and even pompous". I must admit that the word "pretentious", when I use it, can encompass any or all of those meanings, depending on who I am talking about. | > Happy Rhodes elevates her life experience to a wider level as well. | > Is it pretentious? Well, no more or less pretentious, I think, | > that lots of other songwriters. Now, if the Indigo Girls sing a | It's not pretentious at all. It's half of what poetry is all about. Life | must never emerge actual size in verse. Expanding or shrinking perception I disagree with you there. read below. | is what poetry is for. The important thing is that a good poet does the | expansion or reduction. Happy is an excellent poet. Tori Amos is an | excellent poet. Kate Bush is an excellent poet. It is my considered | opinion that neither Indigo Girl is an excellent poet. Indigo Girls do have quite well-formed lyrics which scan, flow and read as stories quite nicely. What I don't like about Indigo Girls (at least their recent stuff) is the presentation of the lyrics, the music, or the voices. But I do feel that whoever-writes-the-lyrics is a good poet. However, it is only recently that I tried reading Kate Bush lyrics as poetry, and it's not easy.. Kate Bush lyrics do not scan - they have no rhyme or meter, and it's obvious by the way she stretches one syllable over 5 notes. Yes it works with her music, but I would call it prose more than poetry, myself. Pick any song from The Kick Inside and you'll see what I mean. Kate is a musical genius, yes. An awesome storyteller, of course, but a good poet, NOT!! | Not a bit of it. One need not know the experience firsthand to write about | it; if this were not the case poetry would require no imagination and the | world would never know fiction. However, if one does NOT know the | experience, one must have the ability to write convincingly and well about | that experience. And furthermore, what do you call a song which says "we're waking up - yes it's good.." Here is a song where Happy is making a statement about an entire global population's politicial views, and summing it up by saying "it's good." If that's not pretentious, I dunno what is... | > make me any more nauseous than Kate Bush singing about nuclear | > war or dead soldiers. What's wrong with Kate singing about dead soldiers? Army Dreamers is one of my fave songs by her ever!! -- | Alan Ezust depeche@binkley.cs.mcgill.ca Montreal, Quebec, Canada | |------------- McGill University School of Computer Science ----------------| Chew your gum and close your eyes and nothing can annoy you. - E.Ka-Spel ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 17 Mar 93 22:42 EST From: robert@deepspace.nj00802.sai.com (Robert Lovejoy) Subject: Some Notes Hello Ecto! Mitch, sorry I haven't joined any other lists yet! Ecto is proving to be a wonderful hangout, as I'm A Major Happyfan! So C Sharp or B Flat! (told you it would be some notes ---groan!) ;)> But seriously folks: Once again Mitch has sent another great idea which I'll pass on to Susanne ASAP! Mitch, have you considered a career in publicity?!! Yow! Chris, thanks for the kind words. Also thanks for explaining the GST. I had been suspecting that Austrailia was going to be converting to Galactic Standard Time, but somehow it turns out to be taxes! Some things truly are universal... The latest news from Susanne indicates a busy schedule for Happy next weekend! (darn, I guess that means she won't have enough free time to drop in!) They (Happy, Kevin, & Susanne) will be arriving in our area on Friday the 26th. Happy will be performing live on The World Cafe at 11:30 AM (Fear Not, Ectophiles, my tape heads have been cleaned!). The first public appearance is that evening in Wilmington, Delaware, at Rainbow Records,3654 Concord Pike. I think she'll be there at 7PM but you can check with the store to be sure. On Saturday the 27th Happy & Kevin will be at 21st Century Sound, 846 Lancaster Ave. in Bryn Mawr, PA. (So will I, but I wouldn't travel that far to see me...). Time for that will be 2PM. They will also tape at WYSP radio that day. On Sunday, they'll be at WMMR for a taping to be aired a week later. Whenever these segments are aired, I'll be taping. Doug, if I send the tapes to you, can you handle the dubs? Please e-mail me... So once again I ask: who among y'all are coming down? Anyone need a place to crash? Hey, maybe if enough of us got together at one place (my house) we could persuade H&K&S to stop by!(fat chance)...(note they usually stay at a hotel Very close to here...) Well, that's the news from Philadelphia, where even the snow is covered with ice which is covered with snow. Oh, by the way, Vickie - while talking with Susanne today I passed on the info about KBOO in Oregon and she was going to call them as soon as she hung up with me. Hope this works out! Take care all and Happy Saint Paddy's! Bob O'Lovejoy ======================================================================== From: Scorpii Subject: 10K Maniacs Discussion, continued Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 0:38:21 EST Forwarded message: > From METH@delphi.com Wed Mar 17 22:49:00 1993 > Date: 17 Mar 1993 22:28:10 -0500 (EST) > From: METH@delphi.com > Subject: Ecto Archaeology from times not long gone > To: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu > Message-Id: <01GVXIT4Z20Y9357O6@delphi.com> > X-Vms-To: INTERNET"ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu" > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > > Drewcifer Drewcifers about "Anthem for Doomed Youth": > > }Of course, I'm sure you'll agree that the original poems were > }better than the adaptations, especially in "Anthem's" case. > > Um, well, when you're adapting something to music you often have > to fudge with it a little bit. I think Natalie did an admirable > job. How many albums were you recording when _you_ were 19 (are > you 19 yet? Insert your age here :)? I'm only 18, so we'll wait and see. :) And I'm well aware of "fudge necessity," so please don't patronize me. I thought she did an admirable job as well. > }> The Wishing Chair....wonderful! > > }But slightly anemic and colorless. > > WHAT????? "Scorpio Rising" is "anemic and colorless"? Oh, No, it's not. I had forgotten that track. :) > please. The album is a masterful blend of the traditional and > the whatever-it-is-that-they-do, and they would do well to > return to it someday, at least for the atmosphere. _Our Time > In Eden_, I think, is a perfect case of good songwriting damaged > by too-slick production. I think it's a perfect case of mediocre (at best) songwriting spotlighted by too-slick production. 'Twas the production on Wishing Chair I loathed; the songs needed a bit more body in the arrangements, and they would have been fine. I should have clarified the anemic/colorless comment. > }The thing I loved about BMZ was the powerful songwriting, > }something sadly absent from OTIE. I rue the day I ran out and > }bought that (the day it came out). ... It shares Wishing Chair's > }blandness, with none of the earlier work's fascinating lyrics. > > Go listen to "Jezebel" and "I'm Not The Man" again with the > lyrics in your hand, and see if you still feel that way. I just did. I still feel that way. Jezebel: the lyrics are almost as good as her earlier work (I'm docking her for being too eager to tell where she used to show), but the music sounds like it was pieced together from two different songs that were better apart. There's too wide a gap; the mood is shredded. I'm Not The Man: excellent lyrics (spoiled only by questionable use of personal pronouns), but the melody lacks interest. Both songs lack drive and fullness, and neither affects me the way the earlier material did. I just don't think any of these songs quite measure up, except for the ones I mentioned in my original post. I'm starting to feel that way about Peter Gabriel's latest and REM's latest has already fallen into disfavor with me. The only recent releases I've bought and really LOVE are Happy's and Robyn Hitchcock's (which is just brilliant). > I've had "Closer" in my head for the past two days. I can > understand exactly how _Hamlet_ would inspire it, but of course > I can't begin to put it into words. Hopefully those who know > the themes of the play and the way in which Mel Gibson emphasized > Hamlet's inner trauma in the film can figure out what I'm getting > at... Actually, I begin to warm to the song with the knowledge of its inspiration. I prefer this POV. > > While listening to _Equipoise_ on my Walkman at the laundromat > last night, I noticed a line that I'd missed before, in "Play The > Game": > > "If I have to be pretty to be liked > then I think I'm dead in the water" > > Geesh. For someone who's supposedly a legend in her own mind, > isn't she being a bit hard on herself? I think so. I think she's quite beautiful in a wholly Schnopic sort of way...which is, of course, the best way. Drewniverse ======================================================================== From: Scorpii Subject: lighters... camera.... hairspray... fwooom! Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 0:51:47 EST Forwarded message: > From depeche@binkley.cs.mcgill.ca Thu Mar 18 00:24:49 1993 > Message-Id: <9303180501.AA28706@binkley.cs.mcgill.ca> > From: depeche@binkley.cs.mcgill.ca (S. A. Ezust) > Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 00:01:40 EST > X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (6.5.6 6/30/89) > To: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu > Subject: lighters... camera.... hairspray... fwooom! > and even pompous". I must admit that the word "pretentious", when I use > it, can encompass any or all of those meanings, depending on who I am > talking about. I pull out my dictionary only when arguing with someone. Informally, I subscribe to the Humpty Dumpty school of definition, where words mean what I want them to mean. There's glory for you! > However, it is only recently that I tried reading Kate Bush lyrics as > poetry, and it's not easy.. Kate Bush lyrics do not scan - they have no > rhyme or meter, and it's obvious by the way she stretches one syllable > over 5 notes. Yes it works with her music, but I would call it prose more > than poetry, myself. Pick any song from The Kick Inside and you'll see > what I mean. Kate is a musical genius, yes. An awesome storyteller, of > course, but a good poet, NOT!! Oh. My. Tree. I don't know where you learned about poetry (for all I know you have a Ph.D in literature) but even my high school English classes knew that poetry NEED NOT rhyme, scan, or even make sense to be "good poetry." I think it's also important to realize that "regular" poetry and musical poetry are usually not judged by the same standards. Lyrics are judged in relation to music, not in a vacuum. Kate is one of a select few lyrical geniuses, a category in which I would place IG only under duress. TKI might not be her best work lyrically, but it WAS her first album, and written at a VERY young age. > And furthermore, what do you call a song which says "we're waking up - > yes it's good.." Here is a song where Happy is making a statement about an > entire global population's politicial views, and summing it up by saying > "it's good." If that's not pretentious, I dunno what is... When I first got Warpaint, I would skip "Waking Up" more often than not. I DO think that song was just a bit undercooked myself. > > | > make me any more nauseous than Kate Bush singing about nuclear > | > war or dead soldiers. > > What's wrong with Kate singing about dead soldiers? Army Dreamers is one > of my fave songs by her ever!! Mine, too! Drewniverse the Humble ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 11:46:56 MEZ From: Dirk Kastens Subject: Happy Birthday Happy Birthday, Alan Sodoma, have a nice day! Mike, great that you want to run the GIF thing. If only I had a nice picture... Vickie wrote: >Before I forget, I'll pass along a couple of other things. The monster on >the cover does have a name, and his name is Tirk. I'm glad his name isn't Dirk!! :-) WRT CD-singles: I like CD-singles, but I hate it if they contain three or four times the same song in different versions or remixes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ || \\\\\ || ///// | Ingredients of this mail: || ))))) IRK || ((((( ASTENS | emulsifier E471, stabilizers E340, || ///// || \\\\\ | E450, anticaking agent E341. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ dkastens@dosuni1.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 17 Mar 93 06:44:59 CST From: kiri Subject: well i meant to review it Lo all....back after 6 days of being stuck in Knoxville. We had two feet of snow there over the weekend and what an adventure it was. No one has experienced a blizzard til they have experienced a southern blizzard. Actually I found the whole thing extremely amusing... The news people had to give people instructions on how to drive, of course they didn't have any plows so there wasn't anywhere you could really drive to anyway. Fortunately Court and I had rented 5 movies the day before the blizzard so we just holed up and vegetated for 4 days. Needless to say we did go slightly stir crazy.... We ended up having two more people stay over too cause their heat and electricity went off. It was an amazing storm to say the least and will definitely not be forgotten. Thanks to all for the birthday greetings. Had a pretty good one given the bizarre circumstances. :) I am desparately trying to get my Equipoise review written - i'm halfway there. kiri ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 13:55:51 MEZ From: Dirk Kastens Subject: sig-file test Greetings, hey, I've just found out how to add my signature automatically :-) Thanks very much, Vickie, for the list of Happy quotes, I've chosen my favorite one (see below). Last Saturday, I saw The Tubes in concert in Muenster. I expected a great and crazy show but I was disappointed. It was quite an ordinary show, nothing happened. Fee Waybill only drank hot tea (!) on stage and claimed about the smoke several times. They played all of their greatest hits but no new songs. This can't be the reason of a re-union. Dirk ------------------------------------------------------------------------ || \\\\\ || ///// | dkastens@dosuni1.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE || ))))) IRK || ((((( ASTENS | "Music's the way, the only way I know" || ///// || \\\\\ | Happy Rhodes ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ======================================================================== Subject: Subject? Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 10:27:14 EST From: Angelos Kyrlidis Hi, Anybody with some info on a band named Ween please describe their album to me. Last night as I went to sleep at 10:30pm (Does this beat Mitch's record? ;-)) WFNX played the same Ween song OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER (I slept after the 4th consecutive time), and I think I subconciously started liking it. It was about Daisies or something. My mind was too hazy to remember anything more, but it was beautiful in its oddness. On pretentiousness/pompousness/etc: Get out of my world of worlds You little poets crying pain Just stand on your podium preaching beauty I've gotta leave you in the rain Now I've heard many people like you ======================================================================== My ears have parasites You think I've never heard the lines before With the candy sun and the creaking door Get your head out of the cotton clouds Put your precious feet on the floor Don't give me those power lines Just hit it right on You can be precise Miracles of mystery With vagueness your device Now clarify, what did you say? You know you're not making any sense Are you describing a vision of beauty? Or a chain of events? Oh get to the point you sappy wimps I haven't got a lot of time Simplicity is beauty Are there poets less sublime? summarizes pretty much my feelings. Angelos ------- 'My brains fall out, they're loosely wrapped'- Happy Rhodes ======================================================================== Date: 18 Mar 93 10:54:17 EST From: Mike Mendelson Subject: No Pretense Drew spews: (-:, sorry about the name rattling, it's a hobby of mine; Luke would be short for Lucifer which...Drewcifer. Why do you call yourself that anyways? Or will I regret asking? :-) > And to be strictly accurate, let me replace "ignorace or inadequacy" in > the above with "ignorance AND inadequacy." I think you've missed most > of my point. Yes, I think I missed your point... You cannot (did not, really) deny that ignorance does not breed pretention. I'm not even sure I would agree with you that it is a necessary condition, and certainly not a sufficient condition for pretention. Plenty of people who know lots about a subject can nonetheless achieve high levels of pretentiousness when addressing it. Your *point* -- inadequacy -- is, for me, more a *result* of pretention than a cause. Certainly there are cases where ignorance and inadequacy breed alot more than pretention, or where ignorance breeds inadequacy, or vice versa. This gets back to my point that nary an artist can avoid being somewhat pretentious. Perhaps I would say that a good artist may be a good pretender (i.e. perhaps this is one aspect of their talent that is well-developed), like Kate, whereas poor artists, are by and large poor pretenders (if not poor other things). This gets pedantic quickly. > We do agree on one thing: all this is subjective. I never claimed that > it wasn't, and I hope we're not so pedantic that I will in future be > obligated to place "I believe" in front of every critical opinion I > offer. Yup. Just wanted to clarify what your opinion was and I feel as if I have. -mjm ======================================================================== The ecto archives are on hardees.rutgers.edu in ~ftp/pub/hr. There is an INDEX file explaining what is where. Feel free to send me things you'd like to have added. -- jessica (jessica@ns1.rutgers.edu)