Errors-To: owner-ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu Reply-To: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu Sender: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu From: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu To: owner-ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu Bcc: ecto-digest@ns1.rutgers.edu Subject: ecto #1154 ecto, Number 1154 Sunday, 26 June 1994 Today's Topics: *-----------------* Some Maddy Prior tour dates and info (fwd) THE MOON SEVEN TIMES TOUR DATES Re: Wrong Century Re: Seeking opinions... Re: Seeking opinions... Re: Seeking opinions... Re: M2000 v Wired = aXcess Re: TITP/Excellent Birds (and a bit of nostalgia) Re: TITP/Excellent Birds (and a bit of nostalgia) Re: AlphaMillaFication Re: Seeking opinions... Rebecca and the incredible renascent posts Rebecca and the incredible renascent posts Upcoming musical guests on late night talk shows for Geoff Parks Re: AlphaMillaFication Re: AlphaMillaFication Re: TITP/Excellent Birds (and a bit of nostalgia) Re: TITP/Excellent Birds (and a bit of nostalgia) Re: Seeking opinions... Re: TITP/Excellent Birds (and a bit of nostalgia) Re: Milla's Lyrics more probelsm on #ecto Re: Seeking opinions... Re: more probelsm on #ecto ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 25 Jun 94 5:16:42 EDT From: WretchAwry Subject: Some Maddy Prior tour dates and info Forwarded from the rec.music.folk newsgroup --------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Andrew Seidenfeld Newsgroups: rec.music.folk Subject: Re: Maddy Prior: help needed Date: Sun, 19 Jun 94 22:39:10 -0500 The following is the itinerary for MADDY PRIOR TORONTO, ONT Mariposa Folk Festival 8/23 ATLANTA, GA Variety Playhouse ALEXANDRIA, VA The Birchmere 8/26 SCHWENKSVILLE, PA Philadelphia Folk Festival 8/27 PAWLING, NY Town Crier 8/31 SOMERVILA Johnny D's 9/1 NORTHAMPTON, MA Iron Horse and 8/20 SANTA MONICA, CA McCabe's Her most recent recording is "Year" on Park Records. w Nick Holland (keyboards), Richard Lee (double bass), Mick Dyche (acoustic guitars), Martin Loveday (cello). Incl "Saucy Sailor" (Steeleye Span orig), "What You Had for Supper" (MP accompanied only by Rick Kemp's fretless bass) and songs based on the four seasons, incl Loudon Wainwright's "Swimming Song" (summer), and MP originals. FOLK CLUBS looking to book Maddy Prior call: Concerted Efforts, 617-969-0810 (969-6761 fax). US RECORD STORES looking to sell "Year" it's on Park Records (UK) distributed in North America by DNA. Rick Lawler, DNA import office, 908-530-5879 ph/fax. EUROPEAN RECORD STORES looking to find out who their distributor is should call Park Records, 20 Raleigh Park Road, North Hinksey, Oxford OX2 9AZ 011-44-865- 248493 ph, 204556 fax. My two favorite albums of hers include "Silly Sisters" and "No More to the Dance". Both are with June Tabor, and they recorded them under the group name The Silly Sisters, and they're both on Shanachie. - - - - Andrew Seidenfeld Oh yes, and FANS who can't find it in local stores should also call Rick Lawler, who would be delighted, no doubt, to have one of his sales reps contact the store nearest you and ask the buyer to pick up copy or two. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Vickie ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 25 Jun 94 06:36 EDT From: ode@fuzzy.dialup.access.net (Ode) Subject: (fwd) THE MOON SEVEN TIMES TOUR DATES From: mroux@prairienet.org (Michael Roux) Newsgroups: alt.music.alternative Subject: THE MOON SEVEN TIMES TOUR DATES Date: 22 Jun 1994 21:25:31 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana JUNE 22-DETROIT-FALCOLN CLUB JUNE 23-CHICAGO-AVALON JUNE 24-DAVENPORT, IA.-STICKMAN'S JUNE 25-COLUMBIA, MO.-BLUE NOTE (W/ FRENTE) JUNE 27-LAWRENCE, KS.-BOTTLENECK (W/FRENTE) JUNE 28-KANSAS CITY-HURRICANE (AFTER KING MISSILE) JUNE 29-CHAMPAIGN, IL.-MABEL'S ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 25 Jun 94 14:30:08 MET DST From: Albert Philipsen Subject: Re: Wrong Century Brian blooms: >Well, I feel I must rise to the defense of 'Wrong Century'. > >I don't see why y'all hate it. You must suck or something. Yeah, what he said. >(tee hee.. just kidding obviously) > >But really, I *like* Wrong Century, complete with the goofball >background sound effects. Me too. The male vocals in this song make perfect sense. In the chorus, the past and present incarnation are singing together. She used to be a man ("not only am I woman") with long black hair (a native American, perhaps), but something happened to make him reincarnate into a female, in the wrong century. >But it still pales next to the >always chilling "In Hiding" which still sends shivers up >and down my spine. I like the version from _RhodeSongs_ better. The piano on _Warpaint_ sort of sounds like it's not a real piano to me. >br!an Albert, who decided to file Milla under the M. ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 25 Jun 94 15:02:12 MET DST From: Albert Philipsen Subject: Re: Seeking opinions... Josh writes: >When I thought about it a little more, I realized that I could come up with >TONS of dorky lookin' guys (Elvis Costello, etc.) but very few dorky lookin' >women. (Of course, physical attractiveness is purely subjective, but I hope >you know what I'm driving at.) > >As much as I don't WANT it to be true, I think my friend's observation is >pretty accurate. As I've talked to other folks about it, I've gotten a >very mixed bag of reactions. I'd be interested to know what y'all think. I've actually read the whole discussion that followed this posting, but I thought maybe you're all missing something obvious, so I hope you won't mind if I backtrack a little to the beginning. I think the fact that attractiveness is subjective is extremely important in explaining this phenomenon. For example, I find lots of women attractive, but I rarely see a male who I would call attractive. Of course, this is so because I'm a male with heterosexual tendencies. I could imagine that for a heterosexual female, the situation would be reversed, but I'm not sure... could someone please enlighten me? So, the phenomenon Josh observed could be a result of only taking the heterosexual male viewpoint into account. What do you think? Albert, who thinks Counselor Deanna Troi looks kind of cute ======================================================================== From: kmorrey@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Kathleen Morrey) Subject: Re: Seeking opinions... Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 08:48:24 -0500 (CDT) Albert quotes Josh's original post, then goes on to say... > > I've actually read the whole discussion that followed this posting, but I > thought maybe you're all missing something obvious, so I hope you won't > mind if I backtrack a little to the beginning. > > I think the fact that attractiveness is subjective is extremely important > in explaining this phenomenon. For example, I find lots of women > attractive, but I rarely see a male who I would call attractive. Of > course, this is so because I'm a male with heterosexual tendencies. I > could imagine that for a heterosexual female, the situation would be > reversed, but I'm not sure... could someone please enlighten me? > > So, the phenomenon Josh observed could be a result of only taking the > heterosexual male viewpoint into account. What do you think? > > Albert, who thinks Counselor Deanna Troi looks kind of cute > I don't think that the situation quite reverses itself, because society seems more intent on creating a form of physical _feminine_ beauty, rather than male attractiveness. Throughout history the woman has been considered more ornamental, and I think the residue of that historical aspect still affects us. I'm a heterosexual woman, and I tend to make physical judgements of attractiveness more on women then on men. It may be simply a self-esteem issue, such as "Gosh, I wish I could look more like her" or the like, but it seems that whether one is male or female, the emphasis is still placed on female beauty in our society. I don't know whether it's because we're taught to think that men _care_ more about appearance (I only throw that in because I've found it interesting that nearly all the gay men that I know care much more about their appearance then the heterosexual men I know, and perhaps that's indicative of "trying to attract a man"), but in my experience, perhaps through societal conditioning, both men and women seem to register the physical attractiveness/non-attractiveness of women more than men. -Kath ======================================================================== From: "Ralph A. Pincus" Subject: Re: Seeking opinions... Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 10:42:54 -0400 (EDT) Albert wonders... > So, the phenomenon Josh observed could be a result of only taking the > heterosexual male viewpoint into account. What do you think? That's a VERY interesting point. I guess it's easy to see it in these terms since the record industry is conducted primarily from a heterosexual male viewpoint. That, in my opinion, is a big part of the problem. And the great thing about Ecto (and one of the reasons I posed the question here) is that other viewpoints are represented, and quite eloquently so. And while I'm at it, a little clarification on the Meat Loaf (ugh) controversy. The thing that makes Mr. Loaf unique isn't that he's heavy set or "unattractive" (subjectivity acknowledged). It's that he is (was?) sold to the mainstream by *accentuating* the very qualities that our society tries to cover up when it comes to women. Just look at his name! Certainly there have been women artists with comparable physical attributes, but have those attributes been accentuated in order to sell records, or have they been downplayed/ignored? That's what I meant by "Could there ever be a female Meat Loaf?" I won't hold my breath for new albums by women artists named "Potato Kugel" or "Brisket." ;) --Josh (who is EVER SO HAPPY that people are getting his name right! YAY!!!!!) ======================================================================== From: Mklprc@aol.com Date: Sat, 25 Jun 94 11:53:09 EDT Subject: Re: M2000 v Wired = aXcess Neal C, you like Mondo so much, as do I, go score (and good luck finding it) a copy of aXcess magazine. This one takes hints from the two others, and carries them a step further in graphics, layout and topics. They cover fringe art and culture like M2K, technology and netcomm like Wired and cyber-weirdness like bOING bOING. They include a lot of Photoshop art and I like their general attitude. Their June issue had pieces on Cowboy Junkies and One Dove. Trouble is, that makes FOUR future-culture magazines now, not including old warhorses like Popular Science (and Scientific American) and their musical 'zine equivalents to read. I can't bear to give any of them up! Michael Pearce ======================================================================== From: jzitt@ssnet.com (Joseph Zitt) Subject: Re: TITP/Excellent Birds (and a bit of nostalgia) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 12:12:50 -0400 (EDT) Vickie posts a long nostalgic list of videos which prompts these nostalgic thoughts: > Buggles "Video Killed The Radio Star" (of course) :) Ths first video shown on MTV. > Lenny Bruce "Thank You Mask Man" (from Night Flight) I fondly remember the original Night Flight series. The first thing I ever taped off the air was a Robert Fripp profile, together with the video for King Crimson's "Sleepless". I never knew what was going to happen next. > Oingo Boingo "Nothing Bad Ever Happens To Me" I've been on a(n) [Mystic Knights of [Oingo]] Boingo binge for the last few days, since stumbling across my tape of the Forbidden Zone soundtrack. I've got their video compilation in my VCR now, though I was insufficiently awake to appreciate their appearance on Leno last night. > After The Fire "Der Kommissar" > Falco "Der Kommissar" (which I liked better) For the true "They did what?!" fan, there's also a recording (though not a video, as far as I know) of the song by Laura Branigan, under the title "Deep in the Dark". > Adrian Belew "Big Electric Cat" > Philip Glass "Act III" Ah... Night Flight turned me into a *serious* Sanborn/Fitzgerald fan. Are they still doing videos? > Nena "99 Luft/Red Balloons" (there are 3 versions that we have) Nena and Martha Quinn: Separated at Birth? (I find myslef humming this song a *lot*.) > M "Pop Music" This reminds me: Adrian Belew fans might like, and might not know about, a trio album he did with Robin Scott (M) and Ryuichi Sakamoto. Good stuff; If I could get at my records, I could check the title. Speaking of which: Can anyone recommend a source of sturdy, attractive record shelves? I have about 26 feet of records and about a 6 foot space to put shelves in. Is there a good, inexpensive source of shelving that will hold the weight of records but won't look like they came out of a warehouse? (I figure this is the group where I'd find people with the most experience of biiiiiiiiiig record collections.) ======================================================================== From: jzitt@ssnet.com (Joseph Zitt) Subject: Re: TITP/Excellent Birds (and a bit of nostalgia) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 12:15:57 -0400 (EDT) The Gabriel/Anderson//Anderson/Gabriel thing reminds me of the Asimov/Clarke covenant in which each acknowledges the other as either the second best science writer in the world or the second best science fiction writer in the world. ======================================================================== From: jzitt@ssnet.com (Joseph Zitt) Subject: Re: AlphaMillaFication Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 12:20:49 -0400 (EDT) Albert files this: > Albert, who decided to file Milla under the M. To further complicate things: The cassette of the album (though not the packaging) has the full name "Milla Jovovich" printed on it. Joe, who has never found a good way to organize cassettes. ======================================================================== From: jzitt@ssnet.com (Joseph Zitt) Subject: Re: Seeking opinions... Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 12:23:32 -0400 (EDT) Josh notes: > downplayed/ignored? That's what I meant by "Could there ever be a female > Meat Loaf?" I won't hold my breath for new albums by women artists named > "Potato Kugel" or "Brisket." ;) There have been some examples: The Weather Girls were once known as "Two Tons of Fun". ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 16:52:51 CDT From: I love you/For sentimental bweeshinneahb Subject: Rebecca and the incredible renascent posts Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 16:52:51 CDT From: I love you/For sentimental bweeshinneahb Subject: Rebecca and the incredible renascent posts The first time I heard of Rebecca Pidgeon, interestingly, was when her picture appeared in an ad for The Gap, which was hung from the ceiling of the North Western Station concourse. I can no longer remember what article of clothing from that chain's line she was modeling. As fate would have it, she is married to the noted playwright David Mamet, with whom she coauthored some of the songs on her new album. She reportedly had to pull out of starring in the film version of her husband's play _Oleanna_ because she's pregnant. _The Midnight Special_ has been playing tracks from her album for the last couple of weeks, and they're quite good. Meredith wasn't the only one to receive a reprise of selected posts from the first few days of last week, courtesy of the Rutgers newsgroup to which the list is gated. Somehow, I doubt that she and I collectively are the only ones to receive this somewhat dubious bonus, either. An idle speculation on where Vickie remembers Blue Rodeo from: with the amount of music by Canadian artists whereof we speak in these pages, it is quite like- ly that it came up in that context at some point. Mitch ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 12:57:45 -0400 (EDT) From: S Trowbridge Subject: Upcoming musical guests on late night talk shows LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN, 11:35 P.M. EST, CBS 6/27 Trisha Yearwood 6/29 Green Day 6/30 Indigo Girls 7/1 Phil Collins 7/4 Neil Diamond 7/5 Melissa Etheridge 7/7 Toad the Wet Sprocket 7/8 Harry Connick Jr. THE TONIGHT SHOW, 11:35 P.M. EST, NBC 6/27 Emmylou Harris (rerun) 6/29 Belly (rerun) 6/30 The Impressions (rerun) 7/1 Garth Brooks (rerun) 7/4 Bonnie Raitt 7/5 Neal McCoy LATE NIGHT WITH CONAN O'BRIEN, 12:35 A.M. EST, NBC 6/28 Indigo Girls (rerun) 6/29 Junior Brown (rerun) 7/1 The Radiators (rerun) 7/6 Al Kooper 7/7 Tripping Daisy 7/8 Superchunk *** People who receive ecto in digest form may subscribe to the ectotv mailing list and receive these bulletins immediately -- including late- breaking updates, if we get 'em! Send mail to trow@access.digex.net. *** --posted by Sue Trowbridge ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 10:33:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Burks Subject: for Geoff Parks Greetings, [I apologize for bugging everyone with this, but, give me a break! It's probably been a year since the last time I did this! :) ] Geoff Parks, I accidentally deleted your e-mail address. Could you send it to me? Thanks! Listening to Ken Griffey Jr just hitting #32 [Yea!!], I remain ... Doug Burks _O_ @>->--- dbx@hebron.connected.com |< She really is!! ======================================================================== From: jzitt@ssnet.com (Joseph Zitt) Subject: Re: AlphaMillaFication Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 12:20:49 -0400 (EDT) From: jzitt@ssnet.com (Joseph Zitt) Subject: Re: AlphaMillaFication Albert files this: > Albert, who decided to file Milla under the M. To further complicate things: The cassette of the album (though not the packaging) has the full name "Milla Jovovich" printed on it. Joe, who has never found a good way to organize cassettes. ======================================================================== From: jzitt@ssnet.com (Joseph Zitt) Subject: Re: TITP/Excellent Birds (and a bit of nostalgia) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 12:15:57 -0400 (EDT) From: jzitt@ssnet.com (Joseph Zitt) Subject: Re: TITP/Excellent Birds (and a bit of nostalgia) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 12:15:57 -0400 (EDT) The Gabriel/Anderson//Anderson/Gabriel thing reminds me of the Asimov/Clarke covenant in which each acknowledges the other as either the second best science writer in the world or the second best science fiction writer in the world. ======================================================================== From: jzitt@ssnet.com (Joseph Zitt) Subject: Re: Seeking opinions... Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 12:23:32 -0400 (EDT) Josh notes: > downplayed/ignored? That's what I meant by "Could there ever be a female > Meat Loaf?" I won't hold my breath for new albums by women artists named > "Potato Kugel" or "Brisket." ;) There have been some examples: The Weather Girls were once known as "Two Tons of Fun". ======================================================================== From: jzitt@ssnet.com (Joseph Zitt) Subject: Re: TITP/Excellent Birds (and a bit of nostalgia) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 12:12:50 -0400 (EDT) Vickie posts a long nostalgic list of videos which prompts these nostalgic thoughts: > Buggles "Video Killed The Radio Star" (of course) :) Ths first video shown on MTV. > Lenny Bruce "Thank You Mask Man" (from Night Flight) I fondly remember the original Night Flight series. The first thing I ever taped off the air was a Robert Fripp profile, together with the video for King Crimson's "Sleepless". I never knew what was going to happen next. > Oingo Boingo "Nothing Bad Ever Happens To Me" I've been on a(n) [Mystic Knights of [Oingo]] Boingo binge for the last few days, since stumbling across my tape of the Forbidden Zone soundtrack. I've got their video compilation in my VCR now, though I was insufficiently awake to appreciate their appearance on Leno last night. > After The Fire "Der Kommissar" > Falco "Der Kommissar" (which I liked better) For the true "They did what?!" fan, there's also a recording (though not a video, as far as I know) of the song by Laura Branigan, under the title "Deep in the Dark". > Adrian Belew "Big Electric Cat" > Philip Glass "Act III" Ah... Night Flight turned me into a *serious* Sanborn/Fitzgerald fan. Are they still doing videos? > Nena "99 Luft/Red Balloons" (there are 3 versions that we have) Nena and Martha Quinn: Separated at Birth? (I find myslef humming this song a *lot*.) > M "Pop Music" This reminds me: Adrian Belew fans might like, and might not know about, a trio album he did with Robin Scott (M) and Ryuichi Sakamoto. Good stuff; If I could get at my records, I could check the title. Speaking of which: Can anyone recommend a source of sturdy, attractive record shelves? I have about 26 feet of records and about a 6 foot space to put shelves in. Is there a good, inexpensive source of shelving that will hold the weight of records but won't look like they came out of a warehouse? (I figure this is the group where I'd find people with the most experience of biiiiiiiiiig record collections.) ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 25 Jun 94 20:52:48 MET DST From: Albert Philipsen Subject: Re: Milla's Lyrics mjm writes: >I would like to call your attention to one song, in particular, >which is probably just about my favorite on the album, due to >its directness and metaphor and wedding of poignant lyric to >perfect musical and melodic accompaniment: Clock. This is a >very simple lyric, but the description goes a long way: > > Clock (Milla) > > I'm locked in a box with a window and a clock > Sometimes I can't sleep, I watch the second hand feeding > Time is ticking, ticking and the flowers are dripping, dripping > I am awake and I cannot sleep It's simple: this song is about me. :-/ (At least the first part.) Albert, efficient at making ashtrays ======================================================================== From: jeffw@triple-i.com (Jeff Wasilko) Subject: more probelsm on #ecto Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 12:33:14 -0700 (PDT) Unfortunatly, the person who caused so much greif is holding #ecto hostage again. Join #ecto2 instead.... Jeff (jane_fan on irc) -- Jeff Wasilko, Systems Rep., Information International Inc. +1 617 937 9400 (jeffw@triple-i.com, jeffw@jane.camex.com) "Two days to get there by boat. It takes forever if you go by inertia, no time if you don't believe in time."--Jane Siberry ======================================================================== From: "Ralph A. Pincus" Subject: Re: Seeking opinions... Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 16:03:06 -0400 (EDT) Joe continues... > > downplayed/ignored? That's what I meant by "Could there ever be a female > > Meat Loaf?" I won't hold my breath for new albums by women artists named > > "Potato Kugel" or "Brisket." ;) > > There have been some examples: The Weather Girls were once known as > "Two Tons of Fun". ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Love it! But I wonder if they (or their record company?) ditched that name because of exactly what I was saying about Meat Loaf. (A who'd have ever thought that Meat Loaf would get so much air-time on Ecto? ;)) An afterthought: I bet that if Senor Loaf were beginning his music career tomorrow, he (or his record company) would probably choose NOT to use that name and/or image. Welcome to the fit-and-trim-and-anorexic 90's!!! :( Speaking of which, I got to hear The Story play "Fatso" live last week here in Rochester. A very funny song about something that's not funny at all. They played some new stuff that's going to be on their next album, which Jonatha said would probably be out sometime in the "first quarter of '95," though she sounded VERY unsure about that. Anyway, the new stuff sounded a bit more aggressive than what they've done in the past, which is just fine with me. Too bad the venue and the audience SUCKED. Argh!!!! Peace. --Josh (who promises not to mention Meat Loaf on Ecto ever again) ======================================================================== From: "Neil K. Guy" Subject: Re: more probelsm on #ecto Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 15:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Jeff writes: > Unfortunatly, the person who caused so much greif is holding > #ecto hostage again. Well, after reading that my curiosity got the better of me so I went onto IRC for half an hour and tracked down our friend Sens, who was responsible for all this. I hadn't seen him before really, but I had some theories about him and what motivates him. So I went up and chatted a bit with him, careful not to try to insult him or to appear like I was begging him to remove his bots. Just act friendly-like and such, without trying to pressure him. I kind of asked him what was up, what his bots were doing, why they were there, etc. Eventually I managed to convince him to first give me ops, and then, after I hadn't try to kick his bots out, to get him to remove his bots from #ecto. I decided not to push him for a promise to stay out forever... I'll try that next time if necessary. Anyway, the whole thing was an interesting exercise in trying amateur psychology on the kid and figure out where he's coming from. Frustrating, too - for half an hour I was on the channels he was on and it was a constant flood of op wars and kicking. Tedious. Anyway, these are my conclusions: Please *don't* ban him from the channel. He's upset with Rava and wants an apology from Rava - which of course Rava is never going to give him. So he's got this obsessive sense of honour or something and has launched a vendetta against him, and doesn't care if #ecto gets in the way. By banning him I think it makes him feel the channel is against him, and that doesn't help. If he wanders in he's looking for Rava. Just ignore him. He's paranoid and easily provoked and saying anything is likely to set him off. And unfortunately he's both obssessive enough and has the modicum of technical knowledge to hack clients and mess about with them to make a nuisance of himself. If he does return, a polite friendly /msg to Sens may work - "hey what's up? Could you move your bots?". But if he doesn't want to listen there's no point trying to talk sense to him. He'll either /ignore you or get his rocks off listening to you try to talk with him. Personally I think the best thing to do is to create #ecto2 as Vickie and Jeff have suggested and then wait until he goes away. You can join both #ecto and #ecto2 simultaneously if you first type /set novice off, and then you can talk to anyone who drops into #ecto to move to #ecto2 instead. I think someone who leaves more or less willingly is less likely to come back and hassle us than someone who's kicked out. So, we'll see what happens. One of the problems with anarchies like IRC is that their continued existence is predicated upon the continued decency and responsibility of its community of users. And sadly there's a large number of selfish and antisocial folks out there who just don't care about others. Sad, really. Anyway, that's my $0.02 worth. I got Sens to leave us alone for a bit, but we'll see how it goes in the future. The whole thing has been quite fascinating and has given me some more interesting ideas for my thesis... :) - Neil K. -- 49N 16' 123W 7' / Vancouver, BC, Canada / neil_k_guy@sfu.ca ======================================================================== The ecto archives are on hardees.rutgers.edu in ~ftp/pub/hr. There is an INDEX file explaining what is where. Feel free to send me things you'd like to have added. -- jessica (jessica@ns1.rutgers.edu)