Errors-To: ecto-owner@ns1.rutgers.edu Reply-To: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu Sender: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu From: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu To: ecto-request@ns1.rutgers.edu Bcc: ecto-digest-outbound@ns1.rutgers.edu Subject: ecto #1133 ecto, Number 1133 Wednesday, 8 June 1994 Today's Topics: *-----------------* Re: Heavenly Voices not a Clipper discussion! Re: Heavenly Voices Uncertain Thought Provoking Re: Uncertain Odd Pairings Bettie Serveert Re: Thought Provoking Re: Thought Provoking Re: Thought Provoking Re: Thought Provoking I'm here, therefore I'm ecto Re: Thought Provoking ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 08 Jun 1994 14:23:24 -0500 (EST) From: "she listens like her head's on fire.." Subject: Re: Heavenly Voices >Congrats! It's a great set. In fact there's only *one* song on there I >don't like (but boy that one gets on my nerves..) 8) >It's out on Projekt records (I think).. Mine came with a little catalog >of their product line, mostly goth and ethereal music.. I think it just >came out last year (or *maybe* 1992). You're right, the packaging is >spartan, but the artwork on both cases and cds is gorgeous.. very 4ADish. >(in fact someone said the cd covers are from the same photo shoot or >at least the same person as the This Mortal Coil covers. Can't confirm >that tho..) >I don't have mine handy so I can't answer much beyond this... But if anyone >has questions, I can look it up tonight.. Would it be possible to get the track listing? This set sounds really good and I'd be interested in looking it up (though Buffalo is mainly a musical wasteland when it comes to rare stuff). thanks Quenby >br!an ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 8 Jun 94 11:49:01 PDT From: Neal Copperman Subject: not a Clipper discussion! I'm not trying to restart the Clipper discussion that surprisingly showed up here, but if people are interested in another side to it, look for the latest issue of WIRED (june 1994, bright green spy vs. nerd cover). There is a non-technical article sarcastically entitled Don't Worry Be Happy, Why Clipper is good for you, by the Chief Counsel for NSA. (You can be sure he didn't call it that!) It makes all the government's points, plus shows that they can exagerate with the best of the civil libertarians. (There is no balancing article in this issue, but the anti-Clipper folks have been dominating the media anyway.) Neal ======================================================================== From: "Ralph A. Pincus" Subject: Re: Heavenly Voices Date: Wed, 8 Jun 1994 17:19:43 -0400 (EDT) > Would it be possible to get the track listing? This set sounds really good > and I'd be interested in looking it up (though Buffalo is mainly a musical > wasteland when it comes to rare stuff).^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Don't know if you're ever in Rochester, but if y'are, definitely check out Lakeshore Records on Monroe Ave. Lots of new "alternative"(?) ecto-type music and the like. I was surprised to see that they don't stock Happy since they seem to have EVERYTHING ELSE. A little expensive, but worth a visit if you're in town. (Good thing they have Happy CD's just down the road at Border's. :)) Speaking of CD's I thought I'd mention *Dee Carstensen*. Sorry if this is old news to ectobeings, but her one and only release, "Beloved One," is WONDERFUL. Shades of Shawn Colvin, neo-Joni Mitchell, and Joan Armatrading with maybe a little Sarah and Happy thrown in (Happy's in the voice, not the music). If these artists tickle your fancy, then you shouldn't hesitate to check out this disc. If anybody wants more info, give a holler! Peace. --JOSH (the anti-Ralph) ;) ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 8 Jun 94 14:25:18 PDT From: snpf@lucid.com (Sarah Noelle Pratt Ferguson) Subject: Uncertain For some reason, and this wasn't the case before, I feel uncertain about posting something which I think will be interesting to the majority of ectoids. (ecto-ids) *heh* So. It is about womyn and guns. What do you think? Should I post it, or not? I'd like some kind of feedback for things like this in general; interesting articles which don't necessarily have anything to do with the proverbial ectofodder. -seanympf ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 8 Jun 94 14:45:09 PDT From: snpf@lucid.com (Sarah Noelle Pratt Ferguson) Subject: Thought Provoking Ok, so here it is. I got enough cool feedback. :) I wrote her and thanked her for the article, which made me realize I'd been carrying around a stupid idiotic myth. -seanympf >From info.firearms.politics: From: AWARE, Arming Women Against Rape and Endangerment Nancy Bittle, President Box 242 Bedford, MA 01730-0242 To: Letters to the Editors, Ms. magazine 230 Park Avenue New York, NY 10169 Subj: "Living with Guns, Playing with Fire" by Ann Jones May/June 1994 pp 38-44 ============================================================ Ann Jones writes that awareness and courage is a solution to the problem of violence against women. I already had awareness and courage when I was attacked. You know what? HE DIDN'T CARE. Ann Jones acknowledged that getting a gun and making conspicuous trips to a target range resulted in the racists leaving her alone. Yet she couldn't overcome the image of a gun as "bad" to accept the reality that her gun was the tool that helped her be safe. She made a mental mistake in confusing offensive violence with self-protection. There is a huge difference between her .38, and a criminal's pistol. It's the difference between a surgeon's blade and the criminal's knife. Both cut, but the former can be life- preserving. I don't care if it was a man or a woman or a martian who invented this thing called a gun. What I know is that a gun is more effective at stopping a crime than anything else. Women who have told me their stories about using a gun to defend themselves have ALL been successful at stopping the assault, WITHOUT firing a shot, even though they would have been legally justified to do so, and prepared to do so if the assault continued. In successfully defending themselves, these women have just made the world safer for ALL other women, because they illustrated that women are NOT easy prey. Women are extremely unlikely to commit crimes with a gun, or have negligent accidents. The people who have accidents are the bozos who act recklessly around guns. These are the same people who have many so-called accidents with cars and typically have prior arrest records for assault. I am not in that category. I take safety seriously, as do ALL of the women I have taught. Say you are in the position where you don't care about guns at all. You don't see the harm in making them illegal or harder to get if there's even a slight chance that doing so would improve the crime problem? Please realize that in doing this, you are ELIMINATING guns as a future option to you. The police already discriminate against women in handing out gun licenses. How do you know that your future will not contain a riot, an earthquake or hurricane and the ensuing period of lawlessness, a vengeful ex-spouse, or an obsessed acquaintance, and words WON'T work? Belonging to NOW, reading MS magazine, having "collective power" of other women and men, and exuding courage and toughness will not be enough. You will probably be alone against your attacker. The police will not be there; they are not psychic. They come when they are called, which is typically after a crime has been committed. In those moments, when you are face-to- face with a man intent on doing you harm, you will wish you had not taken the moral high ground on this issue. If Ann Jones thinks that "collective power", or "awareness and courage", can stop a man intent on harming a woman, she has no clue about what it's like to be forcibly raped. And don't fall for that line about having the gun taken away from you. It's an appealing myth with no basis in reality for civilian women. A woman has ALL the element of surprise. I certainly don't look like the kind of women who would be carrying a gun. In every single report I've reviewed where a woman has used a gun in self-defense, the reaction of the attacker was NOT to go for the gun. It was "Oh sh*t!" or "Lady don't shoot" or running away. She had just given him an immediate reason to fear for his life and well-being. She just ended the confrontation in the least violent way possible - she was not hurt, he was not hurt, he ran off, and hopefully he was caught, charged, tried, convicted, and served time (yea, right). Police get their guns grabbed because they carry openly, the bad guys know right where to grab in advance, and it's their job to apprehend and grapple with suspects. Yet ALL of the situations (like the above example) where someone defends themselves with a gun but doesn't kill the attacker (which is 99% of all such incidents) aren't counted in all those ridiculous studies based on how many assailants get KILLED by someone acting in self-defense. People watch too much TV. This distorts their perception of reality. It typically comes as a big surprise that in real life, over 99% of the time the attacker is NOT killed when someone uses a gun to stop the crime. So those studies quoted in your article are bogus, because they don't take into account the millions of times when a gun is used for protection and attacker is not killed! Do these cases not matter? Do you judge the effectiveness of your police department based on how many criminals they KILL? Of course not. Now you realize what a ridiculous comparison is being made. These lies really annoy me, because they are scaring women off from a life-saving form of self-protection. If the lies aren't enough, your local police officer will be the next obstacle. Here in Massachusetts where police chiefs are free to determine who is "suitable" to have a firearms license, women and minorities are routinely discriminated against. If you are not a white male homeowner, you need political connections to make up for that, or you have "insufficient reason." Police officers stand there with guns on their hips and say "what works for us for self-defense is not good for you". It's hypocritical, offensive, and sexist. "Just use mace", they say. It is not women they want to protect; it is their IMAGE of women they want to protect. Ann Jones instructs women to not mistake our hardware for power. I would like Ann Jones to explain to me how to better stop a man intent on hurting me, when my preventative measures weren't enough and talking him out of it won't work. The root causes of violence (things like poverty, hopelessness, lack of opportunities, discrimination) need to be addressed. But I am not going to sit around defenseless while I wait for the government to heal society, or for society to heal itself. Sincerely Nancy Bittle President, AWARE Arming Women Against Rape and Endangerment 617-893-0500 aware@world.std.com ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 8 Jun 94 15:03:14 PDT From: Neal Copperman Subject: Re: Uncertain I vote for it. What could be more fun than womyn and guns, except possibly womyn in miniskirts and guns:) Maybe if you discuss womyn and guns, say with backing music from Warpaint, it will be ok. Or you could talk about your new band - Guns and Womyn - which you've just started to help disseminate information like . Neal ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 8 Jun 1994 15:11:52 -0700 From: Art Liestman Subject: Odd Pairings [For those who are counting, Happy is only mentioned once in this posting.] Several weeks ago, I bought a ticket to see Morphine. (The show was Monday night.) Last Thursday, I was thrilled to learn that the "special guests" opening for Morphine were (was?) Frente!! (I had been thinking about driving down to Seattle to see them.) An odd pairing, but a great show. I got there early and watched Frente! set up. They actually did 3 full songs as a sound check and later played an hour long set. Fun to watch, too. The guitarist was playful and goofy (lots of facial mugging) and would fit in well with Barenaked Ladies. Angie Hart has a smallish voice, but she does interesting things with it and is quite charming as one of the reviews has said. Morphine was a lot of fun also, but quite a contrast. Well worth the $$! As I sat there waiting for things to commence, I pondered the question of odd pairings of groups (such as Frente! and Morphine). By that, I mean that the groups play significantly different styles of music. Probably the oddest pairing that I ever saw was in 1974 (or so) when I saw Fairport Convention open for Weather Report. (I've never been able to figure out a reason for pairing those bands except that they both contain 'port'.) [Warning: the next paragraph contains some non-favorable opinions!] What's wrong with odd pairings, you ask. Not a darn thing. I enjoyed both Frente! and Morphine and would have gladly paid to see either group. (ditto FC and WR) But, does this make sense for the promoter? I've suffered through lots of terrible opening acts to have a good seat to see someone that I wanted to see. Some of them I've even seen many times due to some quirk of fate. (The Eagles forced themselves in front of me several times in their early years. A more recent example is that wretched Rick Colbourne who has been haunting Vancouver. ARGGHH!!!) I've also bought tickets to shows to see the opening act and left before the headliner. (One of my few regrets is that part of Elton John's fortune was made when I paid big $$ to see Family who were opening for him. Luckily, I escaped the building before he played a note. But I digress...) So, does anybody else have an odd pairing to report? Art (steadfastly refusing to have a signature file) ======================================================================== Date: 08 Jun 94 17:40:44 EDT From: Mike Mendelson Subject: Bettie Serveert I just want to put in a very enthusiastic word for Palomine, the Bettie Serveert release of last year. I hadn't seen much mention of this here... but I have been listening to this album nonstop for the last week. It borders on straight out "modern" rock (whatever that is)... parts of it remind me of the Reivers, the Smithereens, and Neil Young... the female vocalist is very good, and the instrumentation is mood-evoking, which I like a lot... generally a very well put together effort with such catchy phrases as "I feel like I have laid my hands on you before" and "The sun will always shine on this Palomine." What is a Palomine? Obviously it could be a play on "Pal of mine", but it also brings to mind Palomino and Calomine (as in lotion). In an effort to fill in my TORI ripoff collection, I obtained the Silent These Years CD5 with Upside Down on it. This is one *amazing* song. The images and movement are brilliant. I heard this song at the Chicago show, and thought it was gorgeous but I'd never heard it before. Bizarrely, the CD5 I have lists no fewer than 3 foreign countries of origin: UK, France and Germany! The new Michael Smith CD, entitled Time, is incredible. For those unaware, this is not the Michael W Smith of xtian music fame, but the folk entrepreneur whose been around forever. He is a terrific songwriter and charismatic performer. Considering how thick his fingers is his agility at guitar playing always amazes me. Anyways, this guy can write a song and invoke a spirit and a time and a place... for anyone living in Chicago, this should be required listening due to all the great chitown references. Go see him if you ever get the chance. I'm still kicking myself (ow!) for missing his 3-month run play about his sisters and himself growing up. :-( I spent some quality time with Tam last night. Her new demo/maxicassette is ready with new vocals and a new song. The band is called Foreigners without Accents and consists of Tam Trutwin and Art Martinmaki. They are both multi-instrumentalists. Her music is highly siberish (she is a huge sib-head) with tones of Marine Girls and even Jefferson Airplane (!) on one song. It's worth listening just to hear all the wonderful instruments and sounds. The Maxisingle is actually > 20 minutes long (just 3 songs) and is available at tower chicago on cassette only. They're working on getting it out to other retailers. Tam lent me an interview disk of Loreena McKennit circa The Visit. It's about 1/2 hour long and must listening for LM fans. I might be convinced of submitting this to the TDP if there's enough interest. Tam was also nice enough bring over the Crow soundtrack with a Siberry track on it. Quite nice... similar to her last soundtrack song, but a little lighter and smoother -- and better, I think. It's a bizarre juxtaposition with all the metal/alternative bands that comprise the remainder of the soundtrack. Michael Smith keeps getting better and better. Check him out. In travel news, it looks like I will be in Boston for July 4th weekend and in NYC Aug. 18-21. If any ectophiles in those vicinities would like to get together, send email. Later. -mjm ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 8 Jun 1994 17:42:25 -0500 From: iago@merle.acns.nwu.edu Subject: Re: Thought Provoking First of all, thank you Sarah for posting the letter. It could not have come at a better time, since I read the original Ms. article just this morning and have been thinking about it all day. [letter about women owning guns deleted] My thoughts: My first thought to the Ms. article (anti-gun) was, alright. Then I thought about the myths about women owning guns. As women, we are taught to be peace-loving. Women owning guns for protection does not fall into that stereotype. So my second reaction was to say, "bullshit" to the author. here's what I've finally come up with: I once held a gun, and doubt that I could do it again. My then-SO and I were at his friend's house, and the friend was showing off his new purchase. The gun was empty, but it scared me just looking at the thing. I kept my cool when it was my turn to hold that deadly piece of metal, but later on that night I cried. A simple piece of metal contains so much power. A gun walks the line between life and death. I would never be able to hold one again, because it is not my right to kill someone. Not wanting to live in a society filled with guns is not taking away someone's choice. I believe in gun control, because this society (US) has taken the bill of rights too far. Yes, we do have a right to bear arms, but I highly doubt that the signers of the Constitution wanted that right to be treated so casually. The purpose of the amendment was to give americans the right to take action against an irresponsible government, not to kill or have the right to kill their fellow citizens. Knowing that I want to live in a safer society, I don't think the way to reach this goal is to encourage ANYONE to own a gun. Yes, women's safety is important to me. But we need to concentrate on educating society about the value of human life, not demanding more guns. One statistic struck me in that article (and I'm curious how true this statistic is): there are on average 2 guns per household in the US. Is this a society you want to live in? The least violent societies do not have 2 guns per household. Only the most violent ones do. >You don't see the harm in making them illegal or >harder to get if there's even a slight chance that doing so >would improve the crime problem? Please realize that in >doing this, you are ELIMINATING guns as a future option to >you. No, I am not eliminating guns as a future option. I do not advocate the banning of handguns. There is a right to bear arms in the Constitution. I advocate a ban on guns for which their only purpose is to KILL other human beings. I do not understand why anyone needs to own a semi-automatic. You do not use a semi to hunt deer, you use it to kill efficiently. As for making them harder to get, Yes, I do want to make them harder to get. Owning a gun is a very serious burden, and it is not something someone should enter into lightly. These things have the power to kill. I want background checks to make sure that the government is not allowing convicted criminals to purchase a gun, or someone with a history of mental illness. Owning a gun should be a privilege, not a right. If I fall into the 'female' stereotype, then oh well. But I would hope that wanting a more peaceful society is something men believe in too, and not just women. Interested in what other ectophiles have to say... ==> valerie ========================================================================== iago@merle.acns.nwu.edu "Patience, Iago. He was obviously less than worthy." -- Jafar "The hardest to learn was the least complicated." -- Indigo Girls ========================================================================== ======================================================================== From: David Koehler Subject: Re: Thought Provoking Date: Wed, 8 Jun 1994 15:48:48 -0700 (PDT) Thought provoking yes, but I would prefer you keep the political hot potato of gun ownership/control out of Ecto. Just as many people wouldn't want to see this group used as a platform for right-to-life vs. pro-choice diatribes, I don't think this blatantly pro-NRA literature is appropriate here. - David Koehler ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 8 Jun 94 15:52:53 PDT From: John Relph Subject: Re: Thought Provoking Valerie wrote: >I once held a gun, and doubt that I could do it again. My then-SO and I >were at his friend's house, and the friend was showing off his new >purchase. The gun was empty, but it scared me just looking at the thing. >I kept my cool when it was my turn to hold that deadly piece of metal, but >later on that night I cried. Which reminds me of my fun gun experience: my then-SO and I were at her house. She is a well-trained prone and squat target shooter, and knows about guns. She had her pistol, definitely unloaded, and just for the grins, decided to point it at me. I nearly had a breakdown. It made me cry and it still scares me to think about it. I really do not like guns at all. (And the NRA can stuff their statistics.) An un-happy event. -- John ======================================================================== From: "Neil K. Guy" Subject: Re: Thought Provoking Date: Wed, 8 Jun 1994 16:16:52 -0700 (PDT) re: seanympf's post. I've decided not to reply to it. I did, in fact, compose a lengthy response, but I'm not going to send it. I noticed while writing my reply that I was getting quite worked up. I know others may feel the same. And I don't subscribe to Ecto to get into emotional flamewars about polarized value judgements, which I fear a discussion of handguns may rapidly become. Anyone who cares about my opinions is welcome to email me, but I'm not going to post it. Anyway - about that Rhodes II. Cool album, huh? - Neil K. -- 49N 16' 123W 7' / Vancouver, BC, Canada / neil_k_guy@sfu.ca ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 08 Jun 94 18:00:34 CDT From: "Generation W, feeling more like Generation H" Subject: I'm here, therefore I'm ecto For the first time since Friday, I'm current on ecto. The interregnum has been a trip, if anything. After reading most (not all) of my mailing lists late Friday afternoon, I decided to kill time before proceeding to my 25-year high school reunion by taking advantage of the beginning of the off-peak rate period on the system, and doing a fixup on the file of old Usenet posts that I'd been trying to doctor, on and off, for weeks preparatory to downloading it. The job was made problematic by the fat that someone had posted several articles whose lines wrapped for 505 bytes each, requiring unusual amounts of memory to be called up before it could be read. When I brought it into the older of the two available editors (it couldn't fit into the newer one), it turned out that it was trunca- ting lines. Hating to part with any of the information, I hit on the idea of putting the long-line posts into a separate file from what preceded it, and then reading them into a program to read each byte of the record as a separate 1-character alphanumeric variable, which could then be reformatted into card image on the outfile. It worked; given the lateness of the hour, I downloaded it as-was, with the intent of editing it later. I knew I'd be late for the party, but I was full of myself with the ingenuity of the solution I'd devised to my problem. When I transferred from the Dear- born to the State Street subway for the last leg of the trip over there, I thought I'd just missed the train, but it reopened its doors and stood there for awhile. I asked someone what was up, and heard that someone elsewhere on the train had had a gun. The train stayed put a while longer, until announnce- ment that it would run express to Belmont (I wanted Chicago Ave.). I and oth- ers got out to wait for the next train, and someone on the platform reported that the armed intruder had tried to hijack the northbound Howard train to Mexico. Another train came soon. I rode the few stations up State, and walked the remaining few blocks north and east in the new loafers I'd been keeping in storage for the few years since I got them on sale. It gave me a new under- standing of how the phrase "into leather" came to be associated with sadomaso- chism :-). I arrived 45 minutes late, but was able to work the reason for my delay into successive conversations. It was reassuring to see that I was no worse than the others at coping with middle age. I ended the evening as part of a small node of conversation, in which a DVM at a dolphin research center was descri- bing her work. Having heard Beth's accounts of tagging seals in the Orkneys, my curiosity about warm-weather marine mammals was piqued. I went home with the peculiar realization that I had ended the day the same way I began it--in an encounter with a veterinarian (I had taken the cat to be fixed that morning) Since Thursday afternoon, I'd been experiencing cold/flu symptoms whose inten- sity went up and down, despite having received an antibiotic prescription a week earlier, whose course of treatment was nearly complete. Happily, I was never incapacitated from attending my reunion, but I went through the Saturday matinee of _Threesome_ feeling vaguely under the weather. Sunday, I breakfas- ted over the French Open on TV, and took another of my pills. While dressing for the reunion picnic a little later, I noticed I had developed a rash. During the course of the picnic, a doctor friend noticed my condition, told me it was unmistakably an allergic reaction to the drug (which I'd never been prescribed before), and advised me to discontinue taking it, which I did. The picnic ended, and I went on to see _Reality Bites_. Monday, I was off the drug, and feeling better already. I decided to finish editing the reformatted file within the PC environment before reading email from the weekend and beyond. I put my diskette into the A drive, and got a "not ready reading drive A" message following repeated attempts. I was reduced to reloading the megafile from the mainframe archive, and running it through the reformetting program again. I downloaded it to the hard drive, called up the editor, and was told there was insufficient memory. I then bit the bullet and did just what I'd hoped to avoid--use the mainframe editor to get the blank lines--which the reformatting job had inserted for the original records which were of reasonable length in the first place--out of the file. I finally finished that task, and copied the file to a diskette. Tuesday was mostly spent finishing a book that was a week overdue at the library. I was still not fully recovered medically, so this took longer than one might expect given the length of the book. I felt up to relatively little manipulation of email, so I did relatively little. I did, on a whim, try my rogue diskette from the day before. To my simultaneous amazement and chagrin, the editor called up the original reformatted file uneventfully. I went home and slept it all off. Today, I finally read the mail for Friday night through Wednesday inclusive. Henceforth, those comments to which the past is prologue. WRT Neal's query on "Calling You," I think it also was hijacked by AT&T for commercials. WRT another part of that thread, Percy Adlon also directed _The Last Five Days_, a sort of sequel to another director's film _The White Rose_ which focuses on Sophie Scholl, leader of indigenous anti-Nazi movement in Germany, as she awaited execution in 1943. WRT Sarah's proposed gun thread, why not? The domain of ecto is, as we all know, rather broad. I get the feeling I've forgotten one or more of the threads I had hoped to respond to. Oh well. Back to recovery :-). Mitch ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 8 Jun 94 16:36:28 PDT From: erik@falcon.kla.com (Erik Johnson) Subject: Re: Thought Provoking Although I tend to agree with David Koehler that gun control is dangerously flammable, even for Ecto, there is one point of fact that I'd like to address in Valerie's post before I close the issue for good (on the list, at least; email me if you want to discuss this). Valerie referred to semi-automatics as being designed especially to kill people and not being used in hunting. This is a confusion that is unfortunately common in this debate. A semi-automatic fires the same way a revolver does; one trigger pull fires a bullet. Many hunting weapons are, in fact, semi-automatic. An *automatic* weapon will fire many rounds more quickly, and one of the main problems with "assault" weapons is that they were originally designed as full automatic, and it is possible (with skill) to convert them from the legal semi-automatic version to an illegal full automatic weapon. A semi-automatic pistol is not significantly faster to fire than a double-action revolver. I tend to agree in general with the original post, but I will not discuss it on the list. If anyone wishes my views, feel free to email me. Erik _______________________________________________________________________________ Erik N. Johnson Don't believe the return address. KLA Instruments Corp. The one and only True Address is: San Jose, CA e_johnso@kla.com. - - - KLA's only opinion on the subject is that I should get back to work - - - In your head, no car is fast enough / In your heart, no love is true Would it ruin all your solitary fancies / If I told you that it isn't only you? -- Emma Bull, Cats Laughing, "For It All" ======================================================================== The ecto archives are on hardees.rutgers.edu in ~ftp/pub/hr. There is an INDEX file explaining what is where. Feel free to send me things you'd like to have added. -- jessica (jessica@ns1.rutgers.edu)