Errors-To: owner-ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu Reply-To: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu Sender: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu From: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu To: ecto-request@ns1.rutgers.edu Bcc: ecto-digest-outbound@ns1.rutgers.edu Subject: ecto #304 ecto, Number 304 Sunday, 26 July 1992 Today's Topics: *-----------------* Happy Birthdays thrashing doves in flight ...cle full circle full cir... Meryn on the tube Coming 'round the gender bend? Fluff (tm) i'm back Re: Replies to the femme-music thread (FORWARDED) Oops bdays It's your birthday friends.... KaTemas Today's your birthday friend... new stuff and old stuff ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 08:26:44 +0100 From: Terry Partis Subject: Happy Birthdays All the best and Happy Birthdays to David Koehler and Tom Johnson on July 25th. Terry, Off on short Hols today. =============================================================================== _ __ Jolly Hockeysticks _ __ / `-' ( ,,, / `-' ( ,,, | I I ||||||[:::] | I I ||||||[:::] \_.-._( ''' Terry (Tel Boy) Partis \_.-._( ''' _ __ (tgp@ukc.ac.uk) _ __ / `-' ( ,,, With a smile and a song / `-' ( ,,, | I I ||||||[:::] I'm HaPpY | I I ||||||[:::] \_.-._( ''' \_.-._( ''' ================================================================================ ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 07:19:10 EDT From: woj@remus.rutgers.edu Subject: thrashing doves in flight wiltel!dlocke@uunet.uu.net sez: >I love to help spend other people's money ;-) And in Keith >I sense a man after my own heart -- searching for good music >at reasonable prices. or just someone to butter up so they spend their rent money... ;) >Bel Canto's White Out Condition is available from "CD's We Bee" >for $15 (on relativity recs). I have not yet ordered from these >guys but I plan to soon. i've ordered from cd's we bee and was pretty pleased with their service. it was a sale order, so what they did was make a deadline for orders, after which all the orders would be filled on a first-come first-serve basis. they said that they would have all orders out within two weeks and i got mine within one, so i was pleased. have not placed a regular order with themyet, but i'd have no problems doing so. >I was just listening to "Birds of Passage" yesterday and I can't >imagine anyone being disappointed in it. I'd say go for this one. yeah, me too. it's easier to come by and i like it more than _white out conditons_ anyways. :) (i'll save vickie a message: she likes _woc_ better). i heard a few tracks by meryn caddell yesterday (over the phone no less) and found them quite enjoyable. the album is short though - 35 minutes or something like that. kinda of a waste... woj ======================================================================== Date: 24 Jul 92 14:12:17 EDT From: Subject: ...cle full circle full cir... Cathy from Mpls writes: > Hi everyone! Hi Cathy! > Here's my take on the 'womyn's music' issue. (As a BTW, do any of you feel > that spelling 'women's' with a 'y' is a bit contrived? I don't > particularly like it, but that's just my opinion -- so sue me too!). I think we have come full circle here. Cathy, the y is inserted (tongue-in-cheek-militant) to exactly distinguish between the music we usually talk about in this group (womEn's music) and what you're about to describe: > Anyway, I think > that there's a whole genre of music that came to be in the early '70s that > was written by and for lesbians. Since it just wouldn't do to label it > 'lesbian's music', it got labeled 'women's music'. Or, I would claim, womYn's music. > So now, when folks hear > the label 'women's music', lots of them think of only Holly Near or Cris > Williamson or Meg Christian or Margie Adam and simply dismiss it as > unworthy. Yes, exactly why we distinguish that (Y) from the stuff we talk about (E). Women's music is music by/performed by women. Womyn's music is lesbian trash (on the whole). > However, 'women's music' has progressed past the days of the > guitars-only-coffeehouse-filled-with-lesbians type of music. Right-o. The latter is thus referred to as womyn's music and unprogressive. > in my ramblings...maybe what I'm trying to do is redefine the label > 'women's music' to be much more inclusive instead of just using it as a > euphemism for 'lesbian's music'. Agreed. So you see we've come full circle. We started talking about women's music and are back to it again. I think that we should try to enumerate some well-known women musicians who are *not* lesbians... besides kate and happy. What percentage of women musicians are lesbians? Of men? What does this mean? Does a woman who is willing to put up with society's mores and be a non-closet lesbian have a better chance of making it big in the pop scene? I.e. are the same personality traits (not caring what other people think, tenacity, strong-willedness) useful for both? Or is this the exception rather than the rule? Even more important, when will happy put out some new music so we can change the subject? (at least this newsgroup is *functioning*) And why is it that when a newsgroup is down, all people want to do is subscribe to it?! And now for something completely unrelated. I went to see a sneak pre-release screening of Home Alone II. (home alone in NY). I had no idea what the movie would be. My 2 friends and I were among the 30 or so selected to be interviewed afterwards to see what the reactions were. It was interesting (lots of dumb little kids saying "I liked when he blew up in the toilet") and worth $10. What a switch from coming out of the movies in the hole. The Mendelson rating: 1 thumb up, 1 thumb down. Some nice NY scenes, lots of the same roadrunner-style shtick as last time, and a guest appearance by the Rich-man of copymachine fame. Now you all have something to look forward to this winter. Till then. -mjm ======================================================================== Date: 24 July 1992 13:28:26 CDT From: Subject: Meryn on the tube (Not to be confused with Marlene on the wall, as per Suzanne Vega :-). ) Beth asked me to relay to you the datum that Meryn Caddell is slated to appear soon on a CBC summer series called _Ear To The Ground_, which focuses on Can- adian artists. In St. John's, it runs on Monday nights at 8 or 8:30 PM local time (which is about 90 minutes ahead of Eastern). Those of us who are within reach of CBC's signal may find it of interest. Those of us who don't may find it of interest anyway, as we ponder what we're missing as a result of the failure of the Western world's technological machine to invent shortwave TV in time for us to catch MC's act. :-) Mitch ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 14:37:51 EDT From: David N. Blank-Edelman Subject: ...cle full circle full cir... Howdy- I've just been watching this discussion go by, agreeing with most of what has been said, but I have to respond to this: From: : > Womyn's music is lesbian trash (on the whole). Frankly, I find this to be a bit on the offensive side, especially in the context of a later statement. It would be like saying: Civil rights music is Afro-american trash (on the whole). What bothers me is the dismissal of an entre genre of music in such a stereotyped manner. It is stereotypical especially when you say: > I think that we should try to enumerate some well-known women > musicians who are *not* lesbians... besides kate and happy. What > percentage of women musicians are lesbians? Of men? What does this > mean? ... > I.e. are the same personality traits (not caring what other people > think, tenacity, strong-willedness) useful for both? Or is this the > exception rather than the rule? It really looks like you are searching for some generalizations to be made about lesbians (you've already constructed some sort of list of their traits). Whether they are musicians or does not matter. If this is not the case, then I apoligize. If you are, then I call foul! My personal take on womyn's music (especially artists like Holly Near and Judy Small) is that is very similar in some senses to Civil Rights music (Eyes on the Prize, etc). I like both because they are powerful expressions from a people which is fighting opression. It can be both gentle and very in-your-face music. I don't agree with people who exclude some music simply because it cannot be categorized as one genre or another, but I do respect people who prefer to listen to music which speaks to them, not against them (like most of mainstream pop does in its portrayal of women both heterosexual and homosexual). Now that this is off my chest, I resume breathing. Peace, dNb ======================================================================== Date: 24 July 1992 14:00:16 CDT From: Subject: Coming 'round the gender bend? mjm says: >What percentage of women musicians are lesbians? >Of men? What does this mean? Taken at face value, might it mean a new, nontraditional role opportunity for those of the masculine persuasion? Thank you, Bob Kerrey. :-) :-) :-(' Mitch ======================================================================== From: guetzlaf@gravity.cray.com (Cathy Guetzlaff) Subject: Re: ...cle full circle full cir... Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 15:01:52 CDT Oh boy, I *knew* this was coming -- Mike sez: >Womyn's music is lesbian trash (on the whole). As I've said before, some 'womyn's music' is really *really* bad (I, for instance, would be happy never hearing Holly Near's voice again...), some 'womyn's music' (does the name Tracy Chapman mean anything to you? She's certainly a lesbian-who-plays-guitar-and-sings-political-songs) is good, and the rest falls somewhere in between. It's no different than any genre as far as good/bad goes, so IMHO it's unfair to dismiss the whole genre as 'lesbian trash (on the whole)'. That's being as closed-minded as the lesbians Meredith talked about who absolutely refuse to listen to anything else (which *they* might choose to label 'het white boy trash'). I *really* don't know where this whole discussion is going anymore! Is it enough to say that some people define 'womyn's music' one way, some another, some like it, some don't, some say 'tomato', some say 'to-mah-to', let's call the whole thing off. :-) -- Cathy Guetzlaff Cray Research, Inc. guetzlaf@gravity.cray.com ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 16:51:43 MDT From: dbx@olympic.atmos.colostate.edu (Doug Burks) Subject: Fluff (tm) Greetings, I know it's a day early, but I can't (well, won't :) ) access my computer at work on Saturday, and there are _two_ of them, so... I extend a warm fuzzy blue Happy HAPPY BIRTHDAY to both TOM JOHNSON (who hasn't surface in a while. Hmmm, I wonder if the recent earthquakes shook him up too much. :) ) and DAVID KOEHLER (who hasn't given what year he was born in. Tsk, tsk! :) ). Enjoy your days, and play some all-time favorite music! Doug Burks _O_ dbx@olympic.atmos.colostate.edu |< She really is!! ======================================================================== From: drk@leland.stanford.edu Subject: Re: Fluff (tm) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 17:38:01 PDT Thank you all for the HAPPY B-day wishes! Doug writes: > ...and DAVID KOEHLER (who hasn't given what year he was born > in. Tsk, tsk! :) ). Enjoy your days, and play some all-time favorite > music! Oops! I was born in 1966, whick makes me 26 tomorrow. That means I am now in my *late* twenties. Aaaaahhhhh!!!!! (Apologies to those older, but I'm feeling my mortality today.) On an unrelated topic, did anyone else notice the odd way that Happy's vocals are recorded on some tracks of the 1st4? When I listen on headphones Happy's voice seems to come from one channel and the "ambiance" reverb comes from the other channel. The effect is very unnerving -- her voice seems to shoot through the middle of my head, from one ear to the other. The effect is not unpleasant heard through speakers, but I can't handle it on headphones. This phenomenon doesn't occur on _Warpaint_, where the main vocal is centered (as in most recordings). Cheers! David Koehler ======================================================================== From: sae@cmpsci.suffolk.edu (Alan Ezust) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 22:30:14 EDT Subject: i'm back Hi folks - I'm back for the moment, but I'm about to leave again... I was in Washington DC as well as NYC and East Brunswick (I would have called you, Jessica, had I known I'd end up there... Alas, I was only informed of it as I hit the road to New York, and I didn't have your number, and could only remember one of your surnames, and figured it wasn't the one you were listed under...) Washington was fun - I didn't know all those museums were totally free, so I O.D.'d on modern art in the numerous art exhibits, and laughed over all the headlines that ICE-T was getting on reputable newspapers like the Washington Post... So what concerts are happening in the Boston area over the near future? Is Sarah or Tori coming here soon? Since Angelos is in Greece and Greg is in NJ, are there any other boston-area ectophiles these days? Not much else to say. I'm still about 50 digests behind, and sometimes I wonder if I'll ever catch up!! see ya all at KateMas!! -Alan -- S. Alan Ezust sae@cmpsci.suffolk.edu Suffolk University department of Computer Science Cambridge, MA USA ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 0:46:43 EDT From: Vickie Mapes Subject: Re: Replies to the femme-music thread (FORWARDED) I'll probably get in trouble for sounding too narrow-minded about this, but my definition has always been: "Womyn's Music" (or "Women's Music) is music made *BY* women *FOR* women. In that category would fall artists such as the women Cathy mentioned (Chris Williamson, Meg Christian, etc.) That's why I never use the term "woman's music" and I automatically correct anyone who uses it when speaking about my show. My own term is "Music by women." Vickie ======================================================================== Subject: Oops From: klaus@inphobos.w.open.de (Cosmic Vagabond) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 22:29:04 GMT Time for some assorted notes again. Mitch wondered: > To Angelos: enjoy your vacation; but I fear the uninitiated will look at your > logo idea and ask, "Why the sword?" Well, Angelos created that before the release of the 1st4, but the new cover of Rearmament has a sword in the centre (may I say: on the nose). :) Happy performing in Philly on Sept. 17.? or as Vickie put it: > HAPPY-10,000 MANIACS-TORI!!!! WOW!!!! Aaaaaagh, our plane from Boston to Chicago leaves on the 14. :( Vickie et al, we have to do another consolation party. ;) Meredith about Rainbirds & "lesbian music": > And apparently the notion hasn't come up in German fan circles, > either (right, Klaus? :). Not that I know of, but you can't count me among Rainbirds fan circles. I think of myself as not being of fanish nature; I'm wondering every day what I am doing _here_. ;) Chris Sampson asked: > Second, Is there anybody who hasn't heard the IGs-are-lesbians > rumor???? Yes, me. Probably because I haven't heard of them before. Woj corrected me: ==> i assume you mean "808 state"? 808 state falls into the loosely > defined category of "techno" music. this usually translates into > a high-paced beat, cheesy synths and over-dubbed samples. 808 state Ooops (which is also the title of the song I'm talking about), right you are. I should have a bigger TV screen. But I had a closer look and it is indeed "808 state". That one song I've heard of them is not "techno" at all, and Bjork is without doubt singing, and prominent in the video as well. I actually like that song very much. _____ Klaus Kluge * klaus@inphobos.w.open.de * I'll be here, I'll be (in) Ecto! ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 05:42:30 -0230 From: eperry@kean.ucs.mun.ca Subject: bdays HAPPY BIRTHDAY David Koehler and Tom Johnson!! Beth ======================================================================== Subject: It's your birthday friends.... From: klaus@inphobos.w.open.de (Cosmic Vagabond) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 08:52:00 GMT i*i*i*i*i*i i*i*i*i*i*i *************** *************** ***HAPPY******* ***HAPPY******* ********BIRTHDAY*** ********BIRTHDAY*** ******************* ******************* **** David Koehler **** ***** Tom Johnson ***** *********************** *********************** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- David Koehler July 25 Leo Tom Johnson Mon July 25 1966 Leo Rob Woiccak (woj) Sun July 28 1968 Leo John Relph Sat July 28 1962 Leo Bob Kollmeyer Wed July 28 1971 Leo Mark Carroll Fri July 29 1966 Hacker Kate Bush Wed July 30 1958 God Happy Rhodes Mon August 9 1965 HolyGhost Ron Hill Tue August 11 1964 Leo Vickie Mapes Wed August 15 1956 Giddy Martin Dougiamas Wed August 20 1969 Positive -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- If anyone wants to be added to this list, or change their "sign" just e-mail me with the information...if you don't know what day you were born on, I can figure it out if you give the year of birth. Thanks! _____ Klaus Kluge * klaus@inphobos.w.open.de * I'll be here, I'll be (in) Ecto! ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 16:26:00 -0400 From: gb10@gte.com (Gregory Bossert) Subject: KaTemas apologies to all who aren`t coming to the boston-area KaTemas party for using up bandwidth, but i can`t think of a better way to let people know how: to get to the Boston KaTemas party: lessee... first of all, you are going to Harvard Square, Cambridge, MA :) the full address is: the Lowell House Master's Residence Harvard University 50 Holyoke St. Cambridge, MA 02138 617-547-1780 your hosts are greg bossert (that`s me :) and jessica dembski (though it is in fact my parent`s place of residence ;) this is NOT in Harvard Yard (the main campus) -- it is several blocks away, towards the Charles River... BY FOOT/PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION the subway (tube, metro, underground, or in local jargon, the 'T') goes to Harvard Square. take the Red Line *outbound* from Boston (or inbound from the Alewife Station) to the Harvard Square stop -- make sense? the Red Line intersects the Green Line at Park Street, and the Orange Line at Washington Street. if you are on the Blue Line, take the Blue Line to the Green Line at Goverment Center, and the Green Line to Park Street. Boston's main Amtrak station is South Station, which is conveniently on the Red Line... the airport is on the Blue Line, but if you are flying in, call me and we'll arrange a ride :) Once you get to the Harvard Square station, exit out the main lobby of the subway station (go down or up the ramps at the end of the platform to a large underground atrium, then up the stairs/escalators). you will exit in the middle of Harvard Square -- in front of you and across the street will be the Harvard Cooperative Society (the "Coop"). make a 180 degree turn around the station exit, so you are facing away from the Coop, and walk east on Massachusetts Avenue. cross a small street, go past the Au Bon Pain cafe, and turn right on the next street, which is Holyoke Street. head south on Holyoke, cross Mt. Auburn street, cross a small alley-like road. on your right will be the Malkin Athletic Center (a big brick building). eventually, Holyoke Street takes a 90 degree to the left, but before that on the left will be #50. the doorway is large, white, flanked by columns and marked by a large brass "50", as well as some kind of KaTe sign :) BY CAR: if you are coming from the north or south on 95/93 -- * go into boston on 93. * take the Storrow Drive exit. * follow Storrow Drive along the river to the Harvard Sq./J.F.K. St. exit. * cross the river (the exit leads directly to a bridge). * there is a light at the far end of the bridge. go straight through it (assuming it turns green first ;) * there is a light at an intersection with a road from the left. go through the light, and take the very next right (at a very small alley called South St.) * go through the first stop sign, through the parking lot -- the house is the brick building with white columns before you past the parking lot... if you can't park, ring the bell and we will work something out :) if you end up on I95/128 going around boston (it's a loop highway): * take route 2 east to the end * follow signs for boston/cambridge to Memorial Drive... * take Memorial Drive along the river until a light with a bridge on your right -- turn left: this is JFK street! turn on South St. as described above.. if you are coming from the west/south on the Mass Turnpike, you can take the I95 exit north to route 2 as described above, or take the turnpike farther to the Allston/Cambridge exit (it's a left exit). bear to the right, following signs to Cambridge. go straight through several lights, then turn left on Storrow Drive (this turn is a bit obscure -- if you miss it, cross the river and turn left on Memorial Drive). take the Harvard Square/JFK exit as described above... if you have any doubts/questions, give me a call at the number listed above!!! the party is officially from 12noon to 12midnight on August 1, 1992 (that`s next saturday!) crash-space is available for friday and saturday nights -- call me for details! footah!!!!!! -greg -- gb10@gte.com -- "it is this that brings us together" -- KTB ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 0:09:56 EDT From: Vickie Mapes Subject: Today's your birthday friend... HAPPY BIRTHDAY David Koehler and Tom Johnson!! Vickie ======================================================================== Subject: new stuff and old stuff From: claudia@inphobos.w.open.de (Claudia Spix) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 15:25:58 GMT If you're tired of the lesbian and/or politics strand, cut here ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, I'm not overly interested in the topic, but I feel like adding my two Pfennigs worth to the ongoing discussion on music and politics and sexual orientation too. Rainbirds: I vaguely remeber to have heard before the Two Faces album came out, that Katharina Franck is a lesbian. Of course not being in contact with the fan club and having never read any interviews I can't say for sure. It also seems, Germans are on the one hand less open about these things, on the other hand make much less fuss about them. The people I know and I think that goes for most younger people take a "so what?" attitude (But then, my view may be biased, as I've spent most of my adult life so far in or around an university). I think it reduces Katharina's success with the German "Otto Normalverbraucher" that she does not look like your average female sex symbol (in contrast to e.g. popular singer "Sandra" (wife of Michael Cretu, some may have heard of him)), but that's fairly independent of her sexual orientation. It also seems the german public and press are much less interested in a politicians private life. Take for example Oskar Lafontaine. He challenged Kohl in the last election. He's been divorced 2 or three times and has been living for quite while with a much younger woman, by her looks a feminist type. I'm pretty sure she's not the reason why he lost the election. He gets reelected as Ministerpraesident (governor) of the Saarland again and again. Protocol just treats her like she were his wife. He's been mixed up in a financial affair lately, that certainly damaged his reputation a lot more. Chancellor Kohl is known (not by everybody, but by many people) to have an affair for ages with his secretary, younger than his wife but not much, and nobody cares. The press simply doesn't talk about it. His business. Our press talks about sex affairs of foreign politicians and musicians, I guess they just copy the international press. I just read a relatively long (though not very interesting) article in our daily newspaper about "The new angry young women in music" which focused on Tori and k.d.lang. They mentioned there is a lot of sex in both's lyrics, and k.d.'s vegetarianism and her interest in animal rights and environmental issues, but not a word about their sexual orientation. The picture of Tori was actually very nice. (BTW, another article on that page was about Ofra Haza's new album. Doesn't sound too interesting) I will readily admit to the fact that keeping things like that very much under cover has it's bad aspects too. My own view? Well as to politicians, I remember somebody had a signature saying something like: we should be more interested in what a politician does and works for than his private life. Just my words. Of course, I think the public is entitled to be informed about immoral things done by a politician, but only what I would call very bad things. Murder, rape, child abuse, large scale financial things, corruption, blackmail (active). As to musicians, it's basically the same thing. Here I don't even feel we're entitled to information, but I think it's ok to stop liking someone's music if you hear about sth really bad. Some musicians also sell their stuff by making (parts of) their sex life public, but that's their problem. As to their sexual orientation, I couldn't care less. I wouldn't like it, if in his/her lyrics someone tried to hammer home the point that only hetero/gay (tick where appropriate) love is good love, though. But I can't remember having heard much of that. I'm against all sorts of separatism, whether it comes from the general society branding a minority or from that group shutting itself out from the general community. Vickie, if I understand your points on lesbian music correctly, that's just what you said. One last point, before somebody starts "assuming" something: I am heterosexual and I can't make toast. End of mostly non-musical ramblings ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now on to a few more music Quasselei: Martin on Feb 15th: >I just saw the video for the new _Shakespear's Sister_ song, "Stay". They played it a lot since here too. I just love it! If you give it more than a glance you see how humorous it is. It seems to be dramatic, even a bit violent, but it really is one big joke. Shock full of cliches and IRONY! If that pale guy was really sick, the girls wrestling on top of him sure would have killed him :) David on Feb 24th on Mari Boine Persen: >answer right now: buy it. Run to your nearest record store and buy >it. Thanks so much!! If the HBP ever gets done, many more will know what we mean (hint hint). Vickie, on feb 28th >I saw Sarah McLachlan's video on MTV too. It's only the 2nd Sarah video >I've ever seen. I liked it a lot. It will be nice when she comes out Although it has a few nice scenes (Sarah singing before that waterfall background) it just doesn't click with me. Out of the mud into the shower?? Angelos, on May 16th on Annie Lennox Album and "Why" >The song is simply >beautiful and quite haunting. 'I may be mad, I may be blind, I may be >viciously >unkind, But I can still read what you're thinking' she sings with full >passion >and full restrain. There are other alienation songs on this album. Sigh. I can see your point but it seems I place the weights differently. IMVHO there's too much restraint and too little passion on the whole album. Yes, the lyrics are strong, it's just the singing and the arrangements that disappoint me. I promise I'll listen to it some more, but I guess until she does something new with more power I'll prefer Eurythmics stuff. !-------------------------! ! ! ! /^-^\ ! ! ( o o ) ! Miau to our furry friends and ! \="=/ ! liebe Gruesse to the two legged (?) ! / \ ! kind, Claudia ! . / ) ! ! =_ ( \ | | ! claudia@inphobos.w.open.de ! "===___)_| | ! ! """" ! !---------------------K&C-! P.S.: Talk about schedule conflicts. We had to fix our schedules for our September trip to Happy-country (i.e. USA :) pretty early. So, now it seems we'll miss Tori, Sarah and Happy everywhere by a few days/weeks. Scheibenkleister. ======================================================================== The ecto archives are on hardees.rutgers.edu in ~ftp/pub/hr. There is a README file explaining what is where. Feel free to send me (or leave in the incoming directory, just let me know) things you'd like to have added. -- jessica (jessica@ns1.rutgers.edu)