Errors-To: ecto-owner@ns1.rutgers.edu Reply-To: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu Sender: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu From: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu To: ecto-request@ns1.rutgers.edu Bcc: ecto-digest-outbound@ns1.rutgers.edu Subject: ecto #924 ecto, Number 924 Tuesday, 21 December 1993 Today's Topics: *-----------------* Rush Limbaugh The horrors of holidays... Be nice to me, it's my first time Season's Greetings RE: My Top Ten for 1993 The Beatles and Holiday Wishes... Review of Margot Smith I've Got Ewes Under My Skins (My Lips are Sealed) Re: Victoria Williams "Happy Come Home" on CD Aboriginal rock/Chicago? ======================================================================== Subject: Rush Limbaugh Date: Mon, 20 Dec 93 12:20:01 -0500 From: lcliffor@bbn.com Well I'm not crazy about him either, but my husband mentioned over the weekend when Gabriel's 'Steam' video came on that Rush Limbaugh said it was one of his favorite songs! Just a strange fact... Laura ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1993 12:27:18 -0600 (UTC -06:00) From: "I THINK THEREFORE I AM...CONFUSED" Subject: The horrors of holidays... Hi all! I've been circulating all the funny X-mas messages to my friends (or maybe enemies now!). Anyway, someone forwarded this to me so I thought I'd clutter your mailboxes with it. CAUTION: Rude language ahead, you've been warned....... Begin included bit: =============================================================================== > 12 Days of Christmas > > December 14th > > Dearest John: > > I went to the door today and the postman delivered a partridge in a > pear tree. What a delightful gift. I couldn't have been more surprised. > > With dearest love and affection, Agnes > > -------------------------------------- > > December 15th > > Dearest John: > > Today the postman brought your very sweet gift. Just imagine, two turtle > doves.... I'm just delighted at your very thoughtful gift. They are just > adorable. > > All my love, Agnes > > ------------------ > > December 16th > > Dear John: > > Oh, aren't you the extravagant one! Now I must protest. I don't deserve > such generosity. Three french hens. They are just darling but I must > insist.... you're just too kind. > > Love Agnes > > --------- > > December 17th > > Today the postman delivered four calling birds. Now really! They are > beautiful, but don't you think enough is enough? You're being too romantic. > > Affectionately, Agnes > > --------------------- > > December 18th > > Dearest John: > > What a surprise! Today the postman delivered five golden rings. One for > each finger. You're just impossible, but I love it. Frankly, John, all > those squawking birds were beginning to get on my nerves. > > All my love, Agnes > > ------------------ > > December 19th > > Dear John: > > When I opened the door there were actually six geese a-laying on my front > steps. So you're back to the birds again, huh? Those geese are huge. Where > will I ever keep them? The neighbors are complaining and I can't sleep > through the racket. PLEASE STOP! > > Cordially, Agnes > > ---------------- > > December 20th > > John: > > What's with you and those fucking birds???? Seven swans a-swimming. What > kind of goddam joke is this? There's bird shit all over the house and they > never stop the racket. I'm a nervous wreck and I can't sleep all night. > IT'S NOT FUNNY.......So stop with those fucking birds. > > Sincerely, Agnes > > ---------------- > > December 21st > > OK Buster: > > I think I prefer the birds. What the hell am I going to do with eight maids > a-milking? It's not enough with all those birds and eight maids a-milking, > but they had to bring their own goddam cows. There is shit all over the > lawn and I can't move into my own house. Just lay off me. SMART ASS. > > Ag > > ---------------- > > December 22nd > > Hey Shithead: > > What are you? Some kind of sadist? Now there's nine pipers playing. And > Christ - do they play. They never stopped chasing those maids since they got > here yesterday morning. The cows are upset and stepping all over those > screeching birds. No wonder they screech. What am I going to do? The > neighbors have started a petetion to evict me. You'll get yours. > > From Ag > > ---------------- > > December 23rd > > You Rotten Prick: > > Now there's ten ladies dancing - I don't know why I call those sluts ladies. > They've been balling those nine pipers all night long. Now the cows can't > sleep and they've got diarrhea. The commisioner of buildings has > subpoenaed me to give cause why the building > shouldn't be condemned. I'm sicking the police on you. > > One who means it, Ag > > -------------------- > > December 24th > > Listen Fuckhead: > > What's with the eleven lords a-leaping on those maids and aforementioned > "ladies"? Some of those broads will never walk again. All 234 of > the birds are dead. They have been trampled to death in the orgy. I hope > you're satisfied, you rotten swine. > > Your sworn enemy, Miss Agnes McCallister > > -------------------------------------- > > December 25th (From the law offices Taeker, Spredar, and Baegar) > > Dear Sir: > > This is to acknowledge your latest gift of tweleve fiddlers fiddling, which > you have seen fit to inflict on our client, Miss Agnes McCallister. The > destruction, of course, was total. All correspondence should come to our > attention. If you should attempt to reach Miss McCallister at Happy Dale > Sanitarium, the attendants have instructions to shoot you on sight. With > this letter, please find attached a warrant for your arrest. > =============================================================================== Tee-hee! Alex (or was that ali ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 20 Dec 93 16:48 GMT From: dbl@cee.hw.ac.uk (David Lindsay) Subject: Be nice to me, it's my first time Helloooooooooo, I've been persuaded to join this list by Ilka, so if I say anything unsound, feel free to flame her =). Having read some of your (many and varied) postings over the last few days, I feel it is time to raise my head above the parapet and join in. Unfortunately, my knowledge of Ms. Rhodes has been somewhat limited due to the complete dearth of any material in this part of the world, so I shall confine myself to British banalities about the weather and such until I can find something to really get my teeth into. Currently it is cold........ But first, the introduction.......... My name is David Lindsay and I am a 23 year old Scot. I have size 10 (UK) shoes. (Chip told me to say that!) My musical tastes are much akin to any other sane, tasteful bigot, in that I don't like anything except for Queen and Eagles. Or, rather, my musical tastes were so inclined until I attended a little cultural soiree bei the aforementioned Ilka Heber, in Darmstadt last weekend. (She's got a lot to answer for, this girl!) During said evening, I was forcibly introduced to the delights of Bjork, Tori, thingy and the other one. Not to mention Happy Rhodes (Frohliche Strassen, sorry Klaus and Claudia). I had been forewarned about the content of the evening by Ilka, but, being something of a Happy `virgin' (a mere Ectoplasm in terms of musical development) I was rather tentative about hearing her works, in case I didn't like them. Fortunately, my fears were unfounded. Happy turned out to be rather talented (she is, apparently, a Queen fan, after all!), with a rather scary vocal range, and an interesting line in album covers. To summarise, the food was great (being a leather jacket wearing vegetarian, I was a little cautious), the company was very lovely, and the music ranged through the entire taste spectrum(=]). I had a great time, the whisky in particular was very good, and (I hope) I didn't say anything offensive to anybody (a love of good old British sarcasm wasn't shared by everyone!) I'll just finish off by thanking everyone there for being such good company, and I hope to see you again sooooon. byeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, David, P.S. Show us yer bum, Happy =) P.P.S. I bought `Little Earthquakes' yesterday, aren't you impressed?! ======================================================================== From: Tree of Schnopia Subject: Season's Greetings Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1993 13:59:17 -0500 (EST) A big fat **HUG** to all, and Happy Holidays, whether they're about to happen or they've already happened. Perhaps I'll delurk again next semester. Love, Drewcifer -- ---- Andrew D. Simchik, as010b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu, Tree of Schnopia \ ---- \\bi/ Drewcifer says, "?" \/ ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 20 Dec 93 14:20:06 -0500 From: pearceja%pomis.dnet@wl.wpafb.af.mil Subject: RE: My Top Ten for 1993 I N T E R O F F I C E M E M O R A N D U M Date: 20-Dec-1993 01:55pm EST From: Lt Jeffrey A. Pearce PEARCEJA Dept: POSF Tel No: 55451 TO: _MAILER! ( _DDN[ECTO@NS1.RUTGERS.EDU] ) Subject: RE: My Top Ten for 1993 Geoff, > Anglagard - Hybris > ------------------ What a great choice! They were just here in the states, but they only played two shows (Houston, TX and Milwaukee, WI). Thanks for the rest of your list as well, sounds like some things I'll have to track down. Happy holidays! Jeff Pearce pearceja@wl.wpafb.af.mil ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1993 14:22:31 -0500 (EST) From: SANDOVAL@stsci.edu Subject: The Beatles and Holiday Wishes... Hi everyone, Just wanted to pop in quickly to wish everyone Happy Holidays, in case I don't get a chance before the Christmas weekend. I'm glad to hear that Holly is feeling a LITTLE better. :) And I just realized that I hadn't sent out congrats to Court and Kiri... :) Oh, and Vickie, you should KNOW that we always want to hear your side of the stories, especially when they try to put you in an unfavorable light. Ecto is like *family* and if you can't stick up for family, who can you stick up for... :) One thing I wanted to mention from a recent post... Bob said: > One wonderful Shakespearian reference comes at the end of "All You Need >Is Love", from The Beatles. There is a scene from King Lear. If memory >serves me right, it's - um, memory fails quickly who exactly is dying, but >he says: "Villian! Thou hast slain me. Bury my body, and send the letter >[I carry] to Edmond, Earl of Gloucester...O untimely death!" This is actually at the end of "I Am The Walrus". It's one of the many passages that are used as "evidence" of the "Paul is Dead" theory. They reportedly taped the quote from the BBC radio production... > It's at the very end as the song fades out. The music "Greensleeves" is >also happening here. This is from "All You Need Is Love". Were they amazing or what? How about the backing voices in "Paperback Writer"... :) > Quite a trip! Take care everyone and if you're travelling, have a safe trip! John ======================================================================== From: brianb@netcom.com (Brian Bloom) Subject: Review of Margot Smith Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1993 11:30:31 -0800 (PST) Since Anthony Horan is preaching the gospel of Margot Smith (great, now we have to figure where *she* fits in the pantheon!) I thought I should include this, found on rec.music.reviews: -----[cut here]-------8<---------------------------------------- I will admit right up-front that I probably would never have heard of Ms. Smith or the album had it not been for Steve Kilbey's involvement. As a longtime fan of his work both with the Church and various solo-projects, I had to listen to it. Especially after he himself recommended it to me. But this is _not_ a Steve Kilbey album or a S.K. solo-project. Margot Smith is a new Australian artist with a talent that deserves exposure. Here's the first US review of it. Margot Smith: Sleeping with the Lion 4:00 Fall Down 3:51 How Do You Sleep 4:22 Just 4:13 Pool Of Blood 5:10 Arms Of Earth 3:51 Adored 5:06 Water 4:45 The Torch Song 4:50 Life Time 4:24 Bellyman 4:16 Dream 3:00 Child CD EMI Australia 8270062 (Australia) 1-5, 10, 12 produced by Eddie Rayner. 6, 8, 9, 11 produced by Steve Kilbey. 7 produced by Charles Fisher. 9 remixed by Eddie Rayner. Track 1: The first track, Fall Down, which also is the first single from this album, starts the party off on a fairly mellow note. The first impression of the song is somewhat slick and overproduced, but on repeated hearrings the neat string arrangments and the chorus start digging their way to the forefront and wants you to explore more.... Track 2: How Do You Sleep changes the mood entirely. With a good guitar-riff intro this songs shows that Margot can dance. With a capital D. Once the chorus starts up, the guitars are chopping in the background and creating a funky, rocking backdrop. And just as you expect the guitars to turn it up even more, Margot turns the lights down for a brief moment. Then it builds up again. Just like a great pop song should sound. I love this song. Track 3: And Just as you have started to expect a rock'n'roll album, Margot surprises again with a very slow, beautiful song. The bass-line is superb, very jazz-influenced. It almost sounds like Jaco Pastorius is playing. The song itself would not have been lost on an early Kate Bush album, which to me is a great accomplishment. And Margot's voice twists and turns over the melody line. Very haunting. Track 4: Continuing in the same vein as Just, Pool of Blood starts off with a nice acoustic guitar opening and again the track is somewhat reminiscent of Ms. Bush. However, I think I have to say that this is the my least favourite track on the album. I think it's mostly due to the line "You are like a lion in a pool of blood" that doesn't conjure up the images I want to clutter my mind with. Track 5: Again a quiet opening. Guitars softly echo in the background while Ms. Smith almost whispers the lyrics, while the song slowly builds. Eventually it is almost as noisy and rocky as track 2. And it has a great break in the middle where Margot and the lead guitar are almost duelling with each other. Then it settles down nicely again, as if it had been a ballad all the way. Very nice. Track 6: Adored, the second single from the album, and the first track produced and co-written by Steve Kilbey is up next. The production throughout the album is outstanding, with lots of great arrangements. However, it seems to me that the tracks produced by Kilbey have a little more "air" to them, maybe more etheric. And especially on this track. This is a fast ballad, with a very catchy refrain. That this single didn't sell at all shows that there's no relationship between fame and taste in pop-music anymore. This track is great. No GREAT! Period. Track 7: Water continues in the beautiful ballad vein. Great piano solo (by Ms.Smith herself?), and nice overdubbed vocals. At this point there really is no doubt anymore that this lady is a great songwriter and knows who to work with to present the songs in the best way. Track 8: The second Kilbey produced track is another great song. Mostly accompanied by etheric keyboards, Margot beautifully displays her great voice. Quite mesmerizing. Track 9: Oh, I adore this song. By the time I get to this track, my favorite song on the album has changed. This is now it. It's an uptempo ballad, a little reminiscent of Adored, at least in form. And the instrumentation is great, from the guitars to the strings to the trumpet solo. This is Margot at her best, and it's also Steve at his best. I can never listen to this song just once. Thank God for repeat buttons! Track 10: Bellyman starts out again like an early Kate Bush song. Again this is more a compliment than a complaint. I adore the first Kate Bush album and regard it as a classic, and I have a feeling that in ten years this album will have the same status. It's hard to put Margot Smith in a particular genre, it's just great music, stretching over several (annoying) barriers. Track 11: Dream sounds just like that. Floating keyboards in the background, with Margot's voice hovering over it. Very nice. Track 12: The closing track, Child, is as close to folk music as Margot gets. Nice acoustic guitars, and an electric one doing a neat break in the middle and towards the end. The track leaves yo wanting more. So you start the cd over. And over. And over. I have listened to the album a dozen times now, and I'm just starting to get somewhat familiar with it. It's one of those albums that seem to grow for each listening. And as I said earlier, this sounds to me like one of those albums that will be just as good in ten years. To summarize, this album is very pleasant. It mostly glides by like a warm summer breeze, with a couple of windgusts thrown in for good measure. Margot's voice is great and it sounds like singing is the easiest thing she's ever done. The songs are excellent throughout. And the musicians and producers are excellent also. The album has not been released in the States yet, but if you like Kate Bush or just like to be the first on your block to discover great new talents, this album is for you. Run to the import store!!!! -morten br!an -- __ ____ __ ____ __ __ (__==__) /\ \ / \_\ / /\ / \ \ / |\ / /\ (oo) ( moo.) / \_\ / /\ |_| / / /| /\ \ \ / ||/ / / /-------\/ -' / /\ | |\ \/ /_/_ / / / \ \/ \ \ / |/ / / / | U.T.|| / \/ |_| \ __ \_\ /_/ / \ /\ \_\ / /| / / * ||----|| / /\ ./_/ \ \ \/_/_\_\/ \ \ \/_// / | / / ^^ ^^ \ \/ |_| \ \_\ /_/\ \ \_\ /_/ /|_/ / Br!an Bloom \__/_/ \/_/ \_\/ \/_/ \_\/ \_\/ brianb@netcom.com .. but music hides me so well, ..and reveals me.. oh well - HR ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1993 15:23:22 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Sampson Subject: I've Got Ewes Under My Skins (My Lips are Sealed) I'll try to be brief, and even-tempered about this (This is my 4th take on this reply). (I will fail on both counts). I meant no offense to Kjetil or any other individuals whose cultures live off the sea...or those cultures...or indeed anyone, possibly excepting the "upper-middle class twits" whom I derided for adorning themselves with seal furs etc. While I didn't explicitly include the Norwergians in the group of cultures with a legitimate claim to a maritime existence, I SHOULD have....oh, well. My SUBJECTIVE pet peeve concerns waste. I am reminded of the early settlers of this country (U.S., if you hadn't guessed) who hunted the buffaloes for the skins, and left the meat to rot. Or of the Japanese, who, *ALLEGEDLY* hunt for shark fins, and throw back the rest of the otherwise perfectly useful shark. Wastefullness is the supposed sin, not eating flesh. Profit motive as the ultimate measure of wastefulness is the fundamental problem, here, not eating meat or fish, or anything. As I said before in the context of what's "icky" and what's not, it's a matter of where one draws the line. I find the wearing of $7500 fox furs excessive and vain and, in an inter-species context, just plain tacky. Sure furs are soft and cuddly, the fox probably thought so too. The question is, can you, in your heart of hearts, justify your participation *TO YOURSELF*. Don't lose a minute's sleep over me and my opinions. If some insufferable yuppy scum can wake up after a sound sleep and put on his genuine, oh I don't know, kangaroo boots, and still feel good about himself, then, great, let him....until his buying habits have an impact on our shared ecosystem, and suddenly there are no more kangaroos, just 'cause some shallow asshole wanted his feet to look neat. My justifications are not complex. I wear leather, but cringe at the idea of wearing fur. I think Cadillacs are a waste of money and gas, but (speaking as a resident of the most wastefully consumptive of countries) I DON'T carpool...well, occasionally I'm bothered by that, and maybe I will someday make peace with myself and either change my attitudes or behavior. It's ALL subjective...except the bits that aren't. Well, I failed to be brief or even tempered. I don't want to start a flame war over this. Neither do I want to stifle this conversation. The most difficult issues are the most important to hear out. Kjetil, either in EcTo or email, by all means, let's discuss it. Chris Sampson chris@neuron.uchc.edu "You adopted a fox cub whose mother was somebody's coat." Roger Waters ======================================================================== From: brianb@netcom.com (Brian Bloom) Subject: Re: I've Got Ewes Under My Skins (My Lips are Sealed) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1993 13:15:43 -0800 (PST) > > I'll try to be brief, and even-tempered about this (This is my 4th take on > this reply). (I will fail on both counts). > Well, I failed to be brief or even tempered. I don't want to start > a flame war over this. Neither do I want to stifle this conversation. The > most difficult issues are the most important to hear out. Kjetil, either > in EcTo or email, by all means, let's discuss it. God I *love* Ecto! This has to the most polite group I've ever seen! Free Speech without the flame wars... only on Ecto! Way to go, Chris! br!an -- __ ____ __ ____ __ __ (__==__) /\ \ / \_\ / /\ / \ \ / |\ / /\ (oo) ( moo.) / \_\ / /\ |_| / / /| /\ \ \ / ||/ / / /-------\/ -' / /\ | |\ \/ /_/_ / / / \ \/ \ \ / |/ / / / | U.T.|| / \/ |_| \ __ \_\ /_/ / \ /\ \_\ / /| / / * ||----|| / /\ ./_/ \ \ \/_/_\_\/ \ \ \/_// / | / / ^^ ^^ \ \/ |_| \ \_\ /_/\ \ \_\ /_/ /|_/ / Br!an Bloom \__/_/ \/_/ \_\/ \/_/ \_\/ \_\/ brianb@netcom.com .. but music hides me so well, ..and reveals me.. oh well - HR ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1993 16:50:50 -0500 (EST) From: King o' Pain Subject: Re: Victoria Williams "Happy Come Home" on CD I have to join Vickie in recommending _Happy Come Home_. Although I personally am a little annoyed by Victoria's voice and her songs are a bit too country for my taste, the CD does grow on you. It helps that despite the arrangements and voice, the songs are just really well written and quite endearing. It is a testament to Victoria's songwriting abilities that all the songs on _Sweet Relief_ stood up amazingly well. But the real reason to get _HCH_ is because, as Vickie said, Victoria is a truly wonderful person who needs the support. I honestly bought the CD for that reason, knowing ahead of time I wasn't particularly fond of the music. It is totally unfair that someone so genuinely *nice* got MS, and we should do all we can to help her out. So, go out and buy the CD! Stuart ______________________________________________________________________________ Stuart Myerburg "I need more things. I need more money. Emory Univ. Law School Don't want to work. Want things for free." labspm@emoryu1.cc.emory.edu -Jane Siberry _o_ |< ______________________________________________________________________________ ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 20 Dec 93 14:42:31 PST From: erik@falcon.kla.com (Erik Johnson) Subject: Re: I've Got Ewes Under My Skins (My Lips are Sealed) Chris Sampson raises some interesting points: |> My SUBJECTIVE pet peeve concerns waste. I am reminded of the early |> settlers of this country (U.S., if you hadn't guessed) who hunted the |> buffaloes for the skins, and left the meat to rot. Or of the Japanese, |> who, *ALLEGEDLY* hunt for shark fins, and throw back the rest of the |> otherwise perfectly useful shark. Wastefullness is the supposed sin, not |> eating flesh. Profit motive as the ultimate measure of wastefulness is the |> fundamental problem, here, not eating meat or fish, or anything. As I said |> before in the context of what's "icky" and what's not, it's a matter of |> where one draws the line. I find the wearing of $7500 fox furs excessive |> and vain and, in an inter-species context, just plain tacky. Sure furs are |> soft and cuddly, the fox probably thought so too. The question is, can |> you, in your heart of hearts, justify your participation *TO YOURSELF*. |> Don't lose a minute's sleep over me and my opinions. If some insufferable |> yuppy scum can wake up after a sound sleep and put on his genuine, oh I |> don't know, kangaroo boots, and still feel good about himself, then, great, |> let him....until his buying habits have an impact on our shared ecosystem, |> and suddenly there are no more kangaroos, just 'cause some shallow asshole |> wanted his feet to look neat. My justifications are not complex. I wear |> leather, but cringe at the idea of wearing fur. I think Cadillacs are a |> waste of money and gas, but (speaking as a resident of the most wastefully |> consumptive of countries) I DON'T carpool...well, occasionally I'm bothered |> by that, and maybe I will someday make peace with myself and either change |> my attitudes or behavior. I wasn't going to get into this until Chris hit the nail on the head: The thing that raises the biggest problem for most people is waste, especially waste of a "natural" source. Somehow, if the source was man-raised the problem is not seen as strongly. Which leads to the other nasty point in this: Is there a line between ranch- raised animals (think cows for an example) and wild animals? If so, what about ranch-raised mink? Or rabbit? Is this reprehensible? Or tolerable? I don't have any answers, nor am I going to even think about passing a moral judgement. The only conclusion I have is that my gut tells me there is a difference, even if my head can't figure out a "good" reason why. And let me second Chris in saying that I don't want to see a flame war over this. Opinions are fine, but don't make them at the expense of someone else. I've seen matters rationally discussed here that would cause a massive flamewar on Usenet, so keep up the good work! :-) I know that for most of you this warning is totally unnecessary, but I'd just die if my post seeded an Ecto flamewar. :-( |> It's ALL subjective...except the bits that aren't. The trick, of course, is to distinguish which is which... Erik ____________________________________________________________________________ Erik N. Johnson INTP Don't believe the return address. KLA Instruments Corp. The one and only True Address is: San Jose, CA e_johnso@kla.com. GE/CS d-- -p+ c+(++++) l u+ e- m+(--)* s++/+ !n h+ f+ !g(+) w+ t@ r+@ y+(*) My goliard mind pauses, seized by story. Words weave stronger than rope. ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1993 17:43:48 -0600 From: Melissa Nordsiek Subject: Aboriginal rock/Chicago? Ectoites- got a pretty interesting tape for my birthday...a group called Yothu Yindi...basically a aboriginal sounds with traditional rock type sounds...it's very different! has anyone else heard of this group? i was kinda curious how they got started and all that jazz... being that i am going insane in PEE-oria, ILL-inois i am going to DePaul, i think. i was wondering if any people could tell me about DePaul and the area. i am also interested in finding a place to live and any help would be greatly appreciated!!! merry xmas to all! missy bighat@camelot.bradley.edu ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 20 Dec 93 18:42:19 EST From: WretchAwry Subject: Re: I've Got Ewes Under My Skins (My Lips are Sealed) NiceErik (the *only* Erik in the world) says: > Which leads to the other nasty point in this: Is there a line between ranch- > raised animals (think cows for an example) and wild animals? If so, what > about ranch-raised mink? Or rabbit? Is this reprehensible? Or tolerable? > I don't have any answers, nor am I going to even think about passing a moral > judgement. The only conclusion I have is that my gut tells me there is a > difference, even if my head can't figure out a "good" reason why. Another interesting thread that I've been reading and enjoying, but not responding to...another interesting thread that would cause massive flame wars just about anywhere else...I'm so proud of Ectophiles! Vickie ======================================================================== The ecto archives are on hardees.rutgers.edu in ~ftp/pub/hr. There is an INDEX file explaining what is where. Feel free to send me things you'd like to have added. -- jessica (jessica@ns1.rutgers.edu)