Errors-To: owner-ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu Reply-To: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu Sender: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu From: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu To: ecto-request@ns1.rutgers.edu Bcc: ecto-digest-outbound@ns1.rutgers.edu Subject: ecto #542 ecto, Number 542 Monday, 26 April 1993 Today's Topics: *-----------------* Philosophy, physics, et al. (and of course, Happy) On vacuum... Happy Belated \BIRTHDAY Belated Birthday Wishes Happy Birthdays Ideas. theories etc belated birthday another belated birthday Re: Alice About lending out Happy's music Re: Ingrid Karklins Re: Philosophy --> Happy ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 25 Apr 93 23:41:19 -0500 From: rsmith@wisp4.physics.wisc.edu (Randall K. Smith) Subject: Philosophy, physics, et al. (and of course, Happy) Another lurker emerges...well, to answer the obvious questions, my B-day is 3/15/69 (American date-ordering) and shoe size is 12. What brought me out of lurking is a comment made recently about emptiness, and the idea of nothing, voids, and such. (Sorry for the lack of attribution; my system makes that difficult, and really this is a tangent anyway.) Another caveat...I'm actually in astrophysics, no particle physics, so I may get some details wrong. With all that said, emptiness and its relation to mass and such is not a straightforward concept. An atom does not consist of a nucleus with electrons whirling around far from the nucleus. In a hydrogen atom (to pick a simple case) the velocity of the electron can be calculated...and it's zero (in the ground state, at least). And in the ground state, the electron has a non-zero probability of being actually _inside_ the nucleus, in this case a proton. To get weirder...a bare electron is thought to have infinite charge, and perhaps infinite mass as well. The only reason we measure it to have finite values of these charges is because we're measuring from far away; if we look closely at the electron, we'll see a cloud of electrons and anti-electrons around it, covering it--and they have been created out of vacuum, and will soon return to vacuum, to be replaced by others. And these pairs of particles _do_ have a measurable effect; they reduce the apparent charge on the electron from infinity to a finite number. So...vacuum is not a quiet space with nothing occuring...it's a rolling foam of doomed particle pairs, created from nothing and returning to nothing, constantly repeating. Personally, I find this fascinating, but then I also get excited by hot gas in space, so what do I know. Ob Happy content: I've discovered a connection between Laurie Anderson, Happy, and Kate: I can't listen to any of them while working...I start paying too much attention to the music! Randy "Reality is not only stranger than you imagine, it is stranger than you CAN imagine." -- I forget who, but a very true statement. ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 25 Apr 93 23:50:37 -0500 From: rsmith@wisp4.physics.wisc.edu (Randall K. Smith) Subject: On vacuum... Another lurker emerges...well, to answer the obvious questions, my B-day is 3/15/69 (American date-ordering) and shoe size is 12. What brought me out of lurking is a comment made recently about emptiness, and the idea of nothing, voids, and such. (Sorry for the lack of attribution; my system makes that difficult, and really this is a tangent anyway.) Another caveat...I'm actually in astrophysics, no particle physics, so I may get some details wrong. With all that said, emptiness and its relation to mass and such is not a straightforward concept. An atom does not consist of a nucleus with electrons whirling around far from the nucleus. In a hydrogen atom (to pick a simple case) the velocity of the electron can be calculated...and it's zero (in the ground state, at least). And in the ground state, the electron has a non-zero probability of being actually _inside_ the nucleus, in this case a proton. To get weirder...a bare electron is thought to have infinite charge, and perhaps infinite mass as well. The only reason we measure it to have finite values of these charges is because we're measuring from far away; if we look closely at the electron, we'll see a cloud of electrons and anti-electrons around it, covering it--and they have been created out of vacuum, and will soon return to vacuum, to be replaced by others. And these pairs of particles _do_ have a measurable effect; they reduce the apparent charge on the electron from infinity to a finite number. So...vacuum is not a quiet space with nothing occuring...it's a rolling foam of doomed particle pairs, created from nothing and returning to nothing, constantly repeating. Personally, I find this fascinating, but then I also get excited by hot gas in space, so what do I know. Ob Happy content: I've discovered a connection between Laurie Anderson, Happy, and Kate: I can't listen to any of them while working...I start paying too much attention to the music! Randy "Reality is not only stranger than you imagine, it is stranger than you CAN imagine." -- I forget who, but a very true statement. ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 08:44:15 +0100 From: Terry Partis Subject: Happy Belated \BIRTHDAY Here's wishing a belated HaPpY Birthday to Angelos Kyrlidis for April 22nd. Sorry I'm late, but I've been away for a few days, Hope you had a great Day Peace Terry === Only in your eyes lies your soul ========================= Happy Rhodes === _ __ Jolly Hockeysticks _ __ / `-' ( ,,, / `-' ( ,,, | I I ||||||[:::] Terry (Tel Boy) Partis | I I ||||||[:::] \_.-._( ''' (tgp@ukc.ac.uk) \_.-._( ''' With a smile and a song - I'm HaPpy Let me sleep awhile and dream of Avalon and the Beltane fires.................. ............................................our souls entwined for all eternity ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 08:51:21 +0100 From: Terry Partis Subject: Belated Birthday Wishes Sorry I'M late with your Birthday wishes folks, but I've been away for a few days, But I'd still like to wish Happy Birthdays to Kjetil Torgrim Homme and Pablo Iglesias for April 23rd. Hope you both had a great day Peace Terry === Only in your eyes lies your soul ========================= Happy Rhodes === _ __ Jolly Hockeysticks _ __ / `-' ( ,,, / `-' ( ,,, | I I ||||||[:::] Terry (Tel Boy) Partis | I I ||||||[:::] \_.-._( ''' (tgp@ukc.ac.uk) \_.-._( ''' With a smile and a song - I'm HaPpy Let me sleep awhile and dream of Avalon and the Beltane fires.................. ............................................our souls entwined for all eternity ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 08:56:00 +0100 From: Terry Partis Subject: Happy Birthdays Hello to Jeff Burka and Christine Waite, Sorry I missed your Birthdays but I was away unexpectedly for a few days, so I'd like to take this belated opportunity to wish you both a Very Happy Birthday for 24th and 25th April. Hope you both had great days Peace Terry === Only in your eyes lies your soul ========================= Happy Rhodes === _ __ Jolly Hockeysticks _ __ / `-' ( ,,, / `-' ( ,,, | I I ||||||[:::] Terry (Tel Boy) Partis | I I ||||||[:::] \_.-._( ''' (tgp@ukc.ac.uk) \_.-._( ''' With a smile and a song - I'm HaPpy Let me sleep awhile and dream of Avalon and the Beltane fires.................. ............................................our souls entwined for all eternity ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 10:53:56 +0200 From: yngveh@stud.cs.uit.no (Yngve Hauge) Subject: Ideas. theories etc (Don't worry I'll continue the theory --> Happy (more Happy and less theory in the continuing:)) I just want to make something clear. Do I believe in the Cyclus-theory? I don't know yet. I've heard about it sometime before but haven't thought much about it. Need some more time and got to read my friends book first (don't know when it is going to be released) cause he didn't have the time to explain me everything (so he said at least). Then I can say if the theory sounds good to me or not. That's the nice thing about theories you don't need to think about them as true or false just as an interesting study..........(- Begin of no-subject content - Or as the following 3 rules says : 1. I've always right 2. If I should have wrong use rule one 3. If you should have come this far then you should have no doubt but use rule one These rules are so good for the selfconfidence :) I use them all the time. (Wonder why it all is going wrong :)) - end of none-subject content) To Albert: I can't prove anything but I can say that one thing sounds logical or not to me. And to the developing - I haven't developed this theory! Maybe I have thought about it that way *opens his diary to look for some details* but I haven't gone that far :) (He had some ideas there that I couldn't follow) But the theory is interesting and more up to date than most of such I've read. It explains some questions that we all ask ourself. But as already said it's a free world :) I'm open to new impulses even if I am supposed to be a realist :) Take care -- T ---- Only In Your Eyes Lies Your Soul.............. H | --- ----- ---- --- - -- - - - - - --- E |-- | | | | | | |__| | | |_ | | | | | |--- | | | | | --- --- - - ---- - - - -- - - - --- --- Yngve Hauge (yngveh@stud.cs.uit.no).....University of Tromsoe...Norway ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 10:57:53 +0200 From: yngveh@stud.cs.uit.no (Yngve Hauge) Subject: belated birthday Belated happy birthday to Jeff, hope you had a nice day!! Take care, -- T ---- Only In Your Eyes Lies Your Soul.............. H | --- ----- ---- --- - -- - - - - - --- E |-- | | | | | | |__| | | |_ | | | | | |--- | | | | | --- --- - - ---- - - - -- - - - --- --- Yngve Hauge (yngveh@stud.cs.uit.no).....University of Tromsoe...Norway ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 11:01:12 +0200 From: yngveh@stud.cs.uit.no (Yngve Hauge) Subject: another belated birthday Happy birthday to Christine......I tried to log in yesterday but our system was upgraded so no luck. Hope you had a nice day......! Regards, -- T ---- Only In Your Eyes Lies Your Soul.............. H | --- ----- ---- --- - -- - - - - - --- E |-- | | | | | | |__| | | |_ | | | | | |--- | | | | | --- --- - - ---- - - - -- - - - --- --- Yngve Hauge (yngveh@stud.cs.uit.no).....University of Tromsoe...Norway ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 12:41:40 MEZ From: Dirk Kastens Subject: Re: Alice Hi, Welcome Andrea and David and all the other new ectophiles. Alan asked wrt Alice: > But I was wondering - who else on Ecto is familiar with this group? Well, here's another one. And John M.: > who sings a duet with Alice on the final track. Her previous album is > called _Park Place_ I believe, and features Tony Levin, Jerry Marotta, > and Phil Manzanera. Also very nice, but not as inspired as _Il Sole > Nella Pioggia_. It's called _Park Hotel_. The most wonderful album she made is her latest one _Mezzogiorno Sulle Alpi_. When you get the HGP some time in this millennium you will hear _Luce Della Sera_, one of my all-time favorite songs that I've selected for the tape. Alice's real name is Carla Bissi. You can read it in the credits of Steve Jansen & Richard Barbieri's album _Stories Across Borders_: "Our special thanks to Francesco Messina and Carla Bissi for their help and generosity during the recording in Italy." _Il Sole Nella Pioggia_ is completely influenced by the sound of Jansen / Barbieri, and although Richard Barbieri only appears on two tracks of the new album and Steve Jansen on none of them, the album sounds like one of their co-works. Dirk P.S.: The new Bowie is excellent. He combined his disharmonic singing and the odd sounds of his earlier works like _Scary Monsters_ with the dance grooves of the 90's. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ || \\\\\ || ///// | dkastens@dosuni1.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE || ))))) IRK || ((((( ASTENS | "Music's the way, the only way I know" || ///// || \\\\\ | Happy Rhodes ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ======================================================================== From: robert@lemuria@deepspace.nj00802.sai.com Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 07:11 EDT Oops! The following post was returned. Apparently there's no such place as Ect. Sheesh! Hello Ecto! First off, thanks to Alan for scanning in that article about Happy! That was one of the more interesting articles I've read on her. Hmmm, come to think of it, other than the Philadelphia Inquirer piece run on the day of her concert here, it's interesting to note that most all I've read about Happy has been on Ecto! I never realized the struggle it must be for her to "de-objectify" herself, though that's what "Play the Game" is about. Happy is an intellectual artist, and that's fine, though I have to admit she looked wonderful on stage at the University Museum Theatre...(don't get mad at me for that!) Ecto is hopping lately. There's so much going on that it's hard to keep track of what you wanted to say to whom. I sent a post to Yngve after reading his recent all-encompassing post, attempting to present some of my own thoughts on the matter and recommend a few tunes and novels I've enjoyed ("Survival" by Yes, and some Kurt Vonnegut). That's a heavy subject! By the way, I interpreted Yngve's syclus as cycles. I think that's what he meant from the description. Vickie, when you're through with the Chinet remember it's disposable! Kjetel, Happy isn't a lurker here! Bob Brown had a laptop with him at Happy's in-store appearance here, and she just typed in a few lines. It was kind of funny, we were all standing in a circle around her watching her type; I think she may have gotten a little self-conscious. I would have. As Ecto goes, so goes Genie! The new Happy topic continues. We may soon be joined by some new ectophiles from this board. Prodigy, too, is staying alive. I check these boards frequently and try to be helpful. I hope all of the ectophiles in Washington, DC had a great day. Don't be too concerned with what the government says the turnout was! My wife went to the pro-choice rally last year and noted how the press reduced the size of the crowds. In any case, the cause was just. I particularly liked seeing the proud parents of Gays marching together. One wore a hat that said "I may be straight but I'm not narrow!" Yay!!! Hope everyone is just fine! Talk to you all later, Bob Lovejoy "I am Popeye of Borg. Prepare to be askimilated!" - seen on someone's tag... ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 17:52:57 +0200 From: yngveh@stud.cs.uit.no (Yngve Hauge) Subject: About lending out Happy's music It's pretty tough to lend out music by Happy cause you don't know when you'll see it again :) I don't have _VI_ or _VII_ + two of my Equipoise copies right now cause I did lend them out last week (early last week) to a guy whose girlfriend is a KaTe-fan. And the first two were autographed CDs too *ponder* *deep ponder* *even deeper ponder* I really miss those albums now only after 1 week :( Alrigth but I can bear it if I get another interested in Happy. The 2. Equipoise is borrowed by one who just bought _Warpaint_ and it looks like I get 100 Nkr instead of the CD :) I've come so far that I can't go through a whole day without listening to one of her albums once. I just heard from a friend that he would have liked to buy some by Happy if he had the money.......*smile* Enough babbling for now Take care all, -- T ---- Only In Your Eyes Lies Your Soul.............. H | --- ----- ---- --- - -- - - - - - --- E |-- | | | | | | |__| | | |_ | | | | | |--- | | | | | --- --- - - ---- - - - -- - - - --- --- Yngve Hauge (yngveh@stud.cs.uit.no).....University of Tromsoe...Norway ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 11:47:40 EDT From: Tamar Subject: Re: Ingrid Karklins Hi, All! I saw Ingrid Karklins at the Buttonwood Tree Inn last night (the same place Meredith saw her a couple of months ago). The show was pretty much the same as the one Meredith described, except there were far fewer sound problems. Anyway, I definitely second the notion that this show is a must see!! She's really remarkable, and a nice person to boot! Backbone are pretty amazing too! The real reason for this post is that I have a question. Actually, my roommate has a question. She wants to know Ingrid Karklins' age just out of curiosity. Anyone know? As long as I'm here, Vickie: Did you ever get my e-mail I sent you a few weeks ago about a friend of mine who wanted info on Happy's cassettes? And last but not least: My birthday is May 3 (only 7 shopping days left!) and my shoe size is 5.5. Have a good one! --Tamar Boursalian (boutame@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu) ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 9:24:41 PDT From: "John M. Relph" Subject: Re: Ingrid Karklins Ingrid Karklins also appears on a song on Susan Voelz' album _13 Ribs_. Susan is the violinist for Poi Dog Pondering and an important contributer to the Poi sound. -- John ======================================================================== From: Tree of Schnopia Subject: Re: Philosophy --> Happy Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 12:45:19 EDT Forwarded message: ======================================================================== From: Tree of Schnopia Subject: Re: Philosophy --> Happy Date: Sun, 25 Apr 93 21:58:14 EDT Forwarded message: > From awphili@cs.vu.nl Sun Apr 25 11:24:11 1993 > Date: Sun, 25 Apr 93 17:04:57 MET DST > From: Albert Philipsen > To: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu > Subject: Re: Philosophy --> Happy > Message-Id: <9304251704.aa18915@fluit.cs.vu.nl> > > yngveh@stud.cs.uit.no (Yngve Hauge) writes: > > >4. Universal Egoism (You can describe that as the soul of living > > creatures I guess) > > There exists no such thing as the soul of a living creature. Our experience > of consciousness can be completely explained as the result of the complex > processes that take place in our brains. I can highly recommend the book > _Consciousness Explained_, by Daniel C. Dennett, who has a lot of insightful > things to say about this subject. Gee, I'm glad this has been figured out! That makes whole branches of philosophy, all research in AI, one of my majors (Cognitive Science), lots of psychology, and even some computer science quite obsolete and/or redundant. I think you'll find that whether the phenomenon of consciousness can be explained in biological terms, it has *not* yet been *completely* explained, i.e. completely proven. Theories have been advanced, hypotheses tested, models built, and yes, even books written. But by no means has the question been settled once and for all. I really would take more care in opining such reckless statements as "there exists no such thing, etc." If that were a proven fact, and not an opinion, the face of academia would be a COMPLETELY different map. We're still debating what "consciousness" IS, for Tree's sake. > >None of these things can exist without eachother. What is emptiness without > >mass? > > Emptiness is not a thing that exists at all. It is nothing. Precisely: "no thing." The absence of a thing; the absence of mass. Even artists acknowledge positive and negative spaces as "things." > Is there any evidence for the fact that these sycluses do exist? If there were, the theory (or philosophy, which is what it really sounds like) would be proven. No one's saying it is. > Where does this property of sycluses come from? I don't see any reason to > assume this. See above! > >You will never get back to a single > >point on it but you will always be very close. It's the influence from > >other sycluses that make us all grow old. > > Again, I don't see why sycluses are necessary in a theory of aging. Of course not. If you did, you would have invented the theory. > >Without them we could live > >eternal (That's what his theorie says at least) > > As it looks now, this is just an unfounded assumption. It's called "speculation!" Guesswork! It's philosophy, not science. > I think it is perfectly possible to predict part of the future without > there being some kind of communication with it. Actually, we do it all the > time. The trick is to make a model that simulates a part of reality and > run it faster than real time. That's induction, not true knowledge. I realize you're very "hard science" oriented, but... > I think this is an explanation of something that doesn't need to be > explained at all, namely the fact that dreams often don't correspond with > something in reality. I think you'll find that dreams aren't yet fully understood either. > Just the fact that you like this theory because it explains something > important is no evidence for the truth of it at all. Did anyone say it did? This is not a published journal paper, it's a "listen to this idea, isn't it interesting?" No one offered a proof or any semblance of one. It's an idea, and ideas are F-R-E-E. Loosen up. > > I was in a very similar mood last year around this time. It's rather > scary. I had also developed my own theory about reality and such, and I > was also seeing all kinds of connections with Happy's songs. I managed to > lose touch with reality almost completely. I think I can best describe it > as "dreaming while being awake". Yngve, I hope you will not go as far as I > did. I don't consider this scary. Most people can handle speculations on the nature of reality and still make their 9:25 Advanced Maths class. I can, anyway. > Albert "I need reassurance that I'll always be insane." - Happy Rhodes > > P.S. You haven't been channeling with Jorn now, or did you? :-) > Jorn's theory wasn't the problem; it was his attitude. I thought Ecto was a place of ideas, not numbers. Drewcifer the Disillusioned ======================================================================== Subject: Re: Philosophy --> Happy Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 13:20:02 -0400 From: "Dr. Dan" Tree of Schnopia writes: >> >None of these things can exist without eachother. What is emptiness without >> >mass? >> Emptiness is not a thing that exists at all. It is nothing. >Precisely: "no thing." The absence of a thing; the absence of mass. Hmm...this would probably be a bad time to bring up zero-point energies, or vacuum fluctuations (thanks to which even the vacuum is not empty--the void has properties of its own). and rsmith@wisp4.physics.wisc.edu (Randall K. Smith) writes: >To get weirder...a bare electron is thought to have infinite charge, and >perhaps infinite mass as well. The only reason we measure it to have >finite values of these charges is because we're measuring from far >away; not to mention renormalization...the charge density and mass of the electron are both divergent, and getting them back to the measured values is poorly understood--current "solutions" are ugly, ad hoc mathematical conveniences. >"Reality is not only stranger than you imagine, it is stranger than >you CAN imagine." -- I forget who, but a very true statement. Sounds like something Niels Bohr would say. How about "It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem--we must discover how things really seem." -Niels Bohr -dan (who is a particle physicist, but isn't sure that's at all relevant) -- Dan Riley Internet: dsr@lns598.tn.cornell.edu Wilson Lab, Cornell University HEPNET/SPAN: lns598::dsr (44630::dsr) "Maybe, leastways is the best way of all" -Caterwaul ======================================================================== The ecto archives are on hardees.rutgers.edu in ~ftp/pub/hr. There is an INDEX file explaining what is where. Feel free to send me things you'd like to have added. -- jessica (jessica@ns1.rutgers.edu)