From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V7 #264 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Sunday, September 16 2001 Volume 07 : Number 264 Today's Subjects: ----------------- the arts ["Marcel Kshensky" ] Re: the arts [meredith ] Re: the arts [Ian Clysdale ] Re: Forward :: Michael Moore "Death Downtown" ["Scott S. Zimmerman" ] Re: Forward :: Michael Moore "Death Downtown" [Neal Copperman ] Re. Eugene Celebration was:ecto,music and the "human spirit" [Steve VanD] Red Cross Benefit Show at Club Passim - MONDAY 9/17/2001 [Chris Snyder ] for ecto parents or those with very young siblings [Mike Connell Subject: the arts This is a great list. The discussions about theism, peace and morality reflect a debate in many of us, including me. The arts will help us through this. I don't want to sound maudlin, but I want to see the creativity born from this death and destruction. ecto hug to all, - -Marcel Make a difference, help support the relief efforts in the U.S. http://clubs.lycos.com/live/events/september11.asp ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 08:52:57 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Re: the arts Hi, Marcel remarked: >The arts will help us through this. I don't want to sound maudlin, but I >want to see the creativity born from this death and destruction. In a discussion with someone last night about songs apropos to the occasion, I mentioned that the most appropriate songs are currently being written. I was already looking forward to Laurie Anderson's show at Town Hall this coming Wednesday (which is still on, as far as I know), but now I'm especially anticipating it because since she is a New Yorker, and always has such keen observations about the world around her, I'm sure this next hometown show will be particularly unique. ======================================= Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth "things are more beautiful when they're obscure" -- veda hille ======================================= Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:32:37 -0400 From: Ian Clysdale Subject: Re: the arts > >The arts will help us through this. I don't want to sound maudlin, but I > >want to see the creativity born from this death and destruction. > In a discussion with someone last night about songs apropos to the > occasion, I mentioned that the most appropriate songs are currently being > written. Not just music, too. This reminded me of something that I'd forgotten from the show last night, but that blew me away. On either side of the stage were two beautiful large canvases of birds spiralling downwards that had been painted by local native artist Arthur Tu. Apparently, Lynn Miles, who was one of the musicians coordinating the show, ran into him on the street Thursday afternoon, and had asked if he had any paintings that would be appropriate to put on the stage for this show. He went home, spent the entire night painting, and brought them over the next morning. ian. (all about catharsis through creativity and creation.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 08:42:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "Scott S. Zimmerman" Subject: Re: Forward :: Michael Moore "Death Downtown" > And then I check the news and see that President Bush's approval rating has > soared to 80%, and 90% of people polled want us to go to war to eradicate > terrorism from the face of the earth. Why is it that the pollsters never > call me??? For that matter, why don't they ever call anyone I know, If you or i financed a terrorist operation in the US, they'd go after us, so why should others be immune just because they might be living a highly protected existence in an unfriendly foreign country? Also, re: the Soviet Union's invasian of Afghanistan back in '79, should the U.S. and other countries have just stood by and watched that happen just because Afghanistan wasn't perceived to be that great of a country either? Ditto with Iraq/Kuwait? No matter the politics of the invading country or the invaded country, it's generally a bad idea to let any invasion go unchallenged, isn't it? I remember tons of protests against defending Kuwait with lines like "Why are we helping a dictatorship regain power?" when the type of government they were imploying should've really been beside the point. There's been a lot of mention of the US and it's connection to injuring Soviet and Iraqi troops - not to take the 3rd grade approach to it, but they started it. So what if the US helped train Osama bin Laden in the 80s? it might've come back to haunt us now, but it did do some good for some innocent people in Afghanistan. It is remarkable how often the citizens in countries that began invasians are given more thought to than to the citizens that were killed in initial attacks in the invaded country. The same story often goes for victims of everyday crime. They are forgotten while the criminals are apologized for. Scott ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 2001 11:55:46 -0400 From: Dan Riley Subject: Re: And so it begins.... (Senate votes to permit warrantless Net-wiretaps, Carnivore use) Michael Curry writes: > >Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:14:37 -0400 > >From: Declan McCullagh > >To: politech@politechbot.com > >Subject: FC: Senate votes to permit warrantless Net-wiretaps, Carnivore use > >X-URL: Politech is at http://www.politechbot.com/ > > > >Text of the Hatch-Feinstein "Combating Terrorism Act of 2001": > >http://www.politechbot.com/docs/cta.091401.html Declan exaggerated this one pretty badly. The CTA is about pen registers and "trap and trace" devices, not wiretaps (wiretaps record conversations, pen registers record the number dialed, trap and trace devices record the number of the phone originating the call). What it does mostly is to make it clear that the existing pen register and trap and trace provisions apply to the internet as well as phone calls. There are problems with this, primarily in verifying that the recording device only captures the source and destination addresses, but "permit warrantless Net-wiretaps" is not a correct description. Probably the most disturbing thing is that it was passed with so little time for debate and consideration of the ramifications. - -dan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:05:31 -0700 (PDT) From: kitty kat Subject: FW: Bomb whom? I know, I know, I'm perpetuating this... But it's what's on my mind almost all the time, and I found this letter poignant and worth sharing... This is from another list, and is written by an Afghan-American writer who lives in San Francisco: Dear XXX and whoever else is on this email thread: I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done." And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing. I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters. But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country. Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban. We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that. New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West. And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the West. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the West wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else? Tamim Ansary ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:08:14 -0600 From: Neal Copperman Subject: Re: Forward :: Michael Moore "Death Downtown" At 8:42 AM -0700 9/15/01, Scott S. Zimmerman wrote: > > And then I check the news and see that President Bush's approval rating has >> soared to 80%, and 90% of people polled want us to go to war to eradicate >> terrorism from the face of the earth. Why is it that the pollsters never >> call me??? For that matter, why don't they ever call anyone I know, > >If you or i financed a terrorist operation in the US, they'd go >after us, so why should others be immune just because they might be living >a highly protected existence in an unfriendly foreign country? Are you really saying you can't see a difference in the approaches here? If I commit a terrorist attack from my house near the University of New Mexico in Albuqueruque, of course they'll come after me. But they'll arrest me. Or they'll evacuate my block and cordon off my house. They won't blow up the University. (Hell, they won't even blow up my house! A pinpoint strike that I think they could accomplish, as it wouldn't involve airplanes and long distances.) They won't blockade the entire town and try to starve me out either. neal np: E-Bow the Letter - R.E.M. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:42:24 -0700 (PDT) From: "Scott S. Zimmerman" Subject: Re: Forward :: Michael Moore "Death Downtown" > Are you really saying you can't see a difference in the approaches > here? If I commit a terrorist attack from my house near the > University of New Mexico in Albuqueruque, of course they'll come > after me. But they'll arrest me. Or they'll evacuate my block and > cordon off my house. They won't blow up the University. (Hell, > they won't even blow up my house! A pinpoint strike that I think > they could accomplish, as it wouldn't involve airplanes and long > distances.) They won't blockade the entire town and try to starve me > out either. I don't remember mentioning anything about dropping bombs or blowing up anything so don't talk to me like I am a nut saying that we should randomly bomb the hell out of Afghanistan! That's the last thing we should do - that wouldn't even make any sense - people who are saying that probably can't even find Afghanistan or even New York on a map. My preference would be to have every single person involved taken alive and well.... I don't know how far the intelligence gathering of MI6, the CIA, etc. etc. etc. goes but if a dozen ordinary publications can find Bin Laden and interview him for their television programs and written publications, surely the 5 billion+ other people on the planet who are against Bin Laden and similar terrorists can put their minds together and figure out like Waldo where in the world he is... to within a few square miles. Make it a UN operation, fly planes over head and drop in commandos and get him - something like that --I don't know! Maybe I've watched too many movies, but if there's anything we've learned in the past few days, if they can do it in the movies, they can top it in real life------- the Police and FBI put their lives in danger every day capturing dangerous criminals, armed and dangerous... this would be on a grander scale, but not necessarily overly difficult. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 13:07:19 EDT From: Dbell7@aol.com Subject: Re. Eugene Celebration was:ecto,music and the "human spirit" Steve VanDevender writes: >>>>This speaks to something that has had me fuming since yesterday evening when I found out about it. This weekend is the Eugene Celebration, a large city-wide party that's been happening for over 15 years. Yesterday evening there was a news report saying that Eugene's mayor had written to the Celebration organizers asking them to call it off because he felt it was inappropriate after last week's events. In the past he could have had it called off directly as the Celebration used to be city-sponsored. However, it became a privately-managed and funded event a few years ago due to city budget troubles. The board of organizers of the Celebration met yesterday and agreed to a compromise - - -- they would cancel tonight's events, but have the rest of the Celebration events on Saturday and Sunday. Tonight Susan McKeown and the Chanting House were scheduled to perform at the Celebration. I haven't heard for certain that all the musical performances intended for tonight have been called off or rescheduled, but the two performances I most wanted to see -- Susan's and a They Might Be Giants show later -- were both scheduled for tonight. It's also ironic that they're both New York-based groups. Apparently a candlelight vigil event is supposed to happen instead. Maybe I'm being selfish but I don't see that as being as life-affirming as what was originally intended.<<<<< Another de-lurker here: I also live in Eugene and have a different view from Steve. As someone who has attended and enjoyed many "Celebartions" I felt that the whole event should have been postponed. At least in my opinion it was just too early after the tragedies to have this big street party, which the "Celebration is. Especially on Friday which was the national day of rememberance. I went to the vigil last night and thought it was very appropiate. Much more so than the typical Friday night party.The "Celebration" will go on today, but I can not go in good conscience this year. And by the way "They Might Be Giants" had already cancelled in Eugene and in Portland anyway due to flight problems. Also, I see in todays paper that Susan McKeown and the Chanting House are re-scheduled for today (Sat.) at the Casino stage. Dick Bell ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:20:39 -0700 (PDT) From: "Scott S. Zimmerman" Subject: Re: Forward :: Michael Moore "Death Downtown" > > And then I check the news and see that President Bush's approval rating has > > soared to 80%, and 90% of people polled want us to go to war to eradicate > > terrorism from the face of the earth. Why is it that the pollsters never > > call me??? For that matter, why don't they ever call anyone I know, you know, back to that question, what IS war anyway? Is a series of military activities designed in order to capture international fugitives considered war, if the actual government, goverment forces, and ordinary citizenry of the host country are not specifically targeted? The problem with polls is that they are taken in like 5 seconds and not clearly defined-hmm Scott ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 2001 11:34:08 -0700 From: "Michael Pearce" Subject: RE: Phil, Response to Terror At 12:55 AM -0400 9/14/01, "Foghorn J Fornorn" wrote: (snip) >Therefore, it is imperative that these fanatics, all fanatics, must be >stopped, must be eradicated from decent human civilization. Fanatics come in >many forms: religious fanatics, political fanatics (liberal and >conservative), sports fanatics, music fanatics, art fanatics, food fanatics, >fashion fanatics, to name just a few. While the acts of individuals in these >groups will seldom cause the level of devastation of recent events, it >should be easy to see that fanatics of any kind are like a cancer on society >and can serve no useful purpose whatsoever to the normal, comparatively About 20 years ago I published a short form of this rant in the form of a bumpersticker: "Death to All Fanatics" The irony was lost on some. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:28:13 -0700 From: Steve VanDevender Subject: Re. Eugene Celebration was:ecto,music and the "human spirit" Dbell7@aol.com writes: > I also live in Eugene and have a different view from Steve. As someone who > has attended and enjoyed many "Celebartions" I felt that the whole event > should have been postponed. At least in my opinion it was just too early > after the tragedies to have this big street party, which the "Celebration is. > Especially on Friday which was the national day of rememberance. I went to > the vigil last night and thought it was very appropiate. Much more so than > the typical Friday night party.The "Celebration" will go on today, but I can > not go in good conscience this year. > > And by the way "They Might Be Giants" had already cancelled in Eugene and in > Portland anyway due to flight problems. Also, I see in todays paper that > Susan McKeown and the Chanting House are re-scheduled for today (Sat.) at the > Casino stage. > Dick Bell And all this time I thought I was the only Ectophile in Eugene. It occurred to me, after I sent my previous message, that it would be logistically difficult for many of the out-of-town acts to attend given the lack of air travel, so it doesn't suprise me that They Might Be Giants and probably many other acts had to cancel and wouldn't have been here anyway. But I guess I still don't understand how you feel that you "can not go in good conscience." Is it really wrong to celebrate life in the face of death? Is being saddened and withdrawn the only right way to respond to tragedy? It's another irony that within days of the disaster, the mayor of New York urges his citizens to go out and enjoy their city and their lives, but the mayor of Eugene urges us to call off one of the events that defines our community and brings people together. I'm going to the Celebration, and I don't think I'm disrespecting anyone by doing so. And I'm glad to hear that Susan McKeown is still going to perform. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:46:39 -0500 From: Chris Snyder Subject: Red Cross Benefit Show at Club Passim - MONDAY 9/17/2001 Hi Folks I just got this from Club Passim in Cambridge, MA >From: Club Passim >Subject: Red Cross Benefit Show at Club Passim - MONDAY 9/17/2001 > > > >Hi Everyone, > >As we all sit here stunned as to what is going on in our > world right now - we need to come together - as family, as > friends and as community. > >This Monday, September 17, 2001 - Club Passim will hold a > Benefit Show with 100% of the proceeds going to the Red > Cross helping them in their relief efforts in New York City > and Washington DC. > >The tremendous outpouring of generosity and support from the > local artists shows what an amazing community we've got here > in the Bosotn area - come and be a part of it. > >The show will be at Club Passim (47 Palmer St, Cambridge, MA) > and will start at 7PM. Tickets are a $25 suggested > donation, but feel free to give more if you can. As I said, > 100% of the proceeds will go directly to the Red Cross. > >Performers that evening include Ellis Paul, Chris Smither, > Kris Delmhorst, Vance Gilbert, Jim Infantino, Christopher > Williams, Mark Erelli, Beth Amsel, Rob Laurens, Pamela > Means, and more are being added on. > >You can call to purchase tickets at 617-492-7679 - please > specify if you'd like to pay the $25 or if you'd like to > contribute more per ticket. > >Watch http://www.clubpassim.org/passimcalendar for updates on > performers. > >Please spread the word on this show to whomever you can. It > ha come together very last-minute and we want everyone to > know. > >Thank you all for your support on this. Our hearts go out to > all of the people affected by the horrible tragedies of last > week. Let's come together and do what we can to help out. > >Club Passim >47 Palmer St. >Cambridge, MA 02138 >http://www.clubpassim.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 21:30:24 -0400 From: Mike Connell Subject: BBC (England) message board on the WTC etc I just though some of you here would be at least somewhat interested on some predominantly foreign opinions on what occured last Tuesday. I found this site on Thursday night while seeking out some European opinions. http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-perl/h2/h2.cgi?state=view&board=greatdebate.uscrisis Mike ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 18:36:47 -0700 From: cheryl belansky Subject: Any information Good Evening Fellow Ectophiles, I have de-lurked from this chat group recently. I have enjoyed lurking for the past year, however I have not been very happy with the comments that have been thwarted from one individual to another. By my own admission, I am not "attuned" to our nation's military ineptness (as stated by Phillip Hudson. My friend of 7 years). Yes, I should be, however I have been involved in my own life (as many other individuals probably have been.....until now). I am very disturbed by many comments and views, however this is a Democracy, and all are entitled to their own opinions. I am asking a favor of the Ecto community in NYC. My nephews father is still missing. My sister has now been able to transport to NYC in the hopes of finding him. The NYC Armory has now given numbers of the MIA"s. Peter Sessa's number is 907-185. Rhonda (my sister) has been walking around the city with Peter's picture asking if he has been spotted. As of now, Rhonda has not been able to e-mail me a picture of Peter. He is an employee with Charles Schwabb,Inc. and worked in the WTC. If anyone works with that company, please let me know if they saw Peter. My mother is still shaken, since she was in the Pentagon when it was struck. My family (as many individuals are) are hoping that Peter is alright. However, we just want finality. I live in San Francisco, and if I could I would be flying out there to help, but I am helpless. I understand all your frustrations and I respect your opinions on this list, however all I can think of now is finding Peter (whether or not he has survived). I appreciate any leg work that the NYC community can do. I don't know what else to do except solicit your help, even though I have been a lurker for so long. By the way, I was at the Espresso Gardens in San Jose in June of 2001. Maybe you remember me. I enjoyed Cy's and Wendy Rule's beautiful music. I wish everyone well. Thank You. Blessings and Light Cheryl ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 22:37:24 -0400 From: Mike Connell Subject: for ecto parents or those with very young siblings In regards to Tuesdays' attack, Peter Jennings' program today entitled "ANSWERING CHILDREN'S QUESTIONS" went over so well that ABC network is rebroadcasting it tomorrow, Sunday at 1:00 pm EST (11:00 PST). It's a two hour show with no commercials and WELL worth watching or taping. Mike ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V7 #264 **************************