From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V7 #263 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Saturday, September 15 2001 Volume 07 : Number 263 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Fwd: Re: Being contrary (As OT as could possibly be) [John Higdon ] ecto,music and the "human spirit" [Steve VanDevender ] np post ["JoAnn Whetsell" ] Re: Being contrary (As OT as could possibly be) [John Higdon ] Discussions, Music for Mourning ["Lyle Howard" ] Re: Being contrary (As OT as could possibly be) [Joseph Zitt ] Sad, and far too easy to predict [Michael Curry ] Forward :: Michael Moore "Death Downtown" ["Robert Lovejoy" ] thanks ["Karen Hester" ] RE: Being contrary (As OT as could possibly be) ["Martin G Bridges" ] Re: Forward :: Michael Moore "Death Downtown" [meredith ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:27:50 -0500 From: John Higdon Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Being contrary (As OT as could possibly be) At 02:51 PM 9/14/01 -0700, Castergine wrote: >--- Castergine wrote: > > Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:48:12 -0700 (PDT) > > From: Castergine > > Subject: Re: Being contrary (As OT as could possibly be) > > To: FAMarcus@aol.com > > > > But they are (or were, in the USSR's case) specifically atheist > > nations, operating under an atheist philosophy and government. Their > > actions are directly reflective on the concept of atheism's worth as > > a > > basis for a social order as an alternative to one with a religious > > basis. I'm sorry to resort to such a simplistic response...but this is complete and utter bullshit. As far as I know, the only atheistic societies have been under communistic rule, and those totalitarian. Show me a noncommunistic yet atheist society--or perhaps even a nontotalitarian communistic atheistic one, if it exists--that has committed mass murder or other heinous acts, and perhaps you'd have some basis for your above contention. But as far as I've seen, such acts were committed because of totalitarianistic power structure and ambition, not because the societies were atheistic or even communistic. (One might argue that a communistic government would have to be totalitarian, though I would beg to differ and say that we just haven't seen a lasting example of one in modern times. But I don't see that a rational argument could be made that an atheistic society would have to be totalitarian.) And I find your above statement as patently offensive as you seem to have found Vickie's forward. Basically, you seem to imply that a murderous social order is a direct result of the atheistic philosophy, which would itself imply that atheists are, if not blatantly murderers, then at least without any sense of ethics to keep them from harming each other. (While I have said that religious fervor has often been used to rationalize murderous actions, I have _not_ said that such actions are naturally a direct result of religious feeling.) John Higdon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:34:22 -0400 From: "Foghorn J Fornorn" Subject: We'll go forward I thought this was a particularly good column about current events. http://www.miami.com/herald/content/features/columnists/pitts/digdocs/000565 .htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:41:24 -0700 From: Steve VanDevender Subject: ecto,music and the "human spirit" Jim Salih writes: > This is to me what ecto is all about. > "Listening to music will not bring anyone back to life. And it will not > reverse the calendar. > But it will remind us of all of the reasons we all automatically and > intrinsically cherish life. And of all of the reasons this loss of so many > lives is so mindnumbingly horrific." > > R W Hand > Curator > Rhino Handmade Institute Of Petromusicology This speaks to something that has had me fuming since yesterday evening when I found out about it. This weekend is the Eugene Celebration, a large city-wide party that's been happening for over 15 years. Yesterday evening there was a news report saying that Eugene's mayor had written to the Celebration organizers asking them to call it off because he felt it was inappropriate after last week's events. In the past he could have had it called off directly as the Celebration used to be city-sponsored. However, it became a privately-managed and funded event a few years ago due to city budget troubles. The board of organizers of the Celebration met yesterday and agreed to a compromise - -- they would cancel tonight's events, but have the rest of the Celebration events on Saturday and Sunday. Tonight Susan McKeown and the Chanting House were scheduled to perform at the Celebration. I haven't heard for certain that all the musical performances intended for tonight have been called off or rescheduled, but the two performances I most wanted to see -- Susan's and a They Might Be Giants show later -- were both scheduled for tonight. It's also ironic that they're both New York-based groups. Apparently a candlelight vigil event is supposed to happen instead. Maybe I'm being selfish but I don't see that as being as life-affirming as what was originally intended. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:37:34 -0700 From: Phil Hudson Subject: RE: ecto,music and the "human spirit" One can only suppose that the rationale is based around the concept of people "celebrating" something at such a tragic time. I agree with Steve: to me, having some New York-based performers playing in such a situation is potentially more life-affirming and uplifting than a vigil event. I hope they reconsider. Phil - -----Original Message----- From: Steve VanDevender [mailto:stevev@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu] Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 4:41 PM To: ecto@smoe.org Subject: ecto,music and the "human spirit" ... The board of organizers of the Celebration met yesterday and agreed to a compromise - -- they would cancel tonight's events, but have the rest of the Celebration events on Saturday and Sunday. Apparently a candlelight vigil event is supposed to happen instead. Maybe I'm being selfish but I don't see that as being as life-affirming as what was originally intended. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:40:02 -0400 From: "JoAnn Whetsell" Subject: Re: from around the world I just wanted to write and thank Vienna for posting this link. Given the week's events, and feeling the fear and sadness everyone's feeling, plus just finding out I didn't get a callback for a job I *really* wanted, and being out of work and looking in a bad economy, I was feeling really stressed. Then I looked at all these pictures and was so touched and thought about all the beauty in the world. I called my 10 year old niece over to look at the stie, and she said something like "All these people are sad for America" and I said "They're sad for people. Because this was a terrible thing that happened, no matter who did it, no matter who it happened to." JoAnn watching Michael Jackson videos and reliving the innocence of my youth >From: "Vienna Teng" >To: "Ecto Mailing List" >Subject: from around the world >Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:40:46 -0700 > >Still off-topic, but a break from the touchy political discussion (which I >also applaud for staying relatively civil -- amazing at a time like this!): > >http://uweb.ucsb.edu/~deter/thankyou.htm _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:51:57 -0400 From: "JoAnn Whetsell" Subject: np post iclysdal@redmaplegrove.org wrote: >np First of June, Where the Wind Blows This is such a pretty title. What's it like? I've never heard of the group. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:51:47 -0500 From: John Higdon Subject: Re: Being contrary (As OT as could possibly be) Okay, after the last message I responded to, I could feel this started to possibly get a little heated, so I'm gonna back off on most of it. Just had a few words to say about atheism. At 03:14 PM 9/14/01 -0700, Castergine wrote: >--- John Higdon wrote: > > There is no message in atheism to distort for a cause. >That's so wrong. The message that there is no god is a message in >itself. It is, in fact, a religious philosophy in itself, If you've not been an atheist, you have no authority to say what an atheist does and does not believe, what atheism itself is. When I was atheist, I did not believe that there was no god; I just didn't believe in a god. It's not a belief in nothing, but a lack of belief. There is a difference (at least in my head). Look at it like this. Think of religious belief as music sent out on the airwaves. It's picked up on little internal radios in people's heads. A few people are constantly changing the dial to see if there's something better. However, most people have a station they've always listened to, they assume it's the best one there is, and so they listen to it and never check out what's on other stations. Often, these people simply listen to the same station their parents listened to, and the music they were brought up with. Atheists aren't tuned to the station with static; instead, they don't have a radio. Perhaps it broke. Some never had one to begin with. They don't listen to the music because they can't, not having a radio. They don't usually mind if other people want to listen to their music, but can get a bit cranky if it's turned up too loud when they're trying to sleep. They get especially pissed when someone tries to install a radio in their head without permission. >The fact that atheists either don't realize or acknowledge that atheism >is, in fact, >a religion, is one of its most ironic points. The fact that some people cannot acknowledge that some people are simply not religious is truly...something. John Higdon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:00:34 -0700 From: Neile Graham Subject: Re: np post JoAnn Whetsell asked : re: iclysdal@redmaplegrove.org wrote: > >>np First of June, Where the Wind Blows >This is such a pretty title. What's it like? I've never heard of the >group. Kind of like early Tori with a band. I love them. They have a page at mp3.com if you want to hear samples. Great associative lyrics, piano, and all my favourite factors in music. - --Neile who keeps playing David Usher's "Black Black Heart" which somehoe has become my song about this week (too bad I don't like the rest of his new album much). This is strange song because the first time I heard it I hated the mix of the Flower Aria from Delibes, _Lakme'_ and the beat but now I love it. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neile Graham ...... http://www.sff.net/people/neile ....... neile@sff.net Les Semaines: A Weekly Journal . http://www.sff.net/people/neile/semaines The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music ............ http://www.ectoguide.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 01:29:44 From: "Lyle Howard" Subject: Discussions, Music for Mourning Hola, I find the discussions of religion and atheism happening on the list to be useful. The discussions are making my brain stretch. I had recently said to my cousin that religion and its effects are probably more positive than negative in the life of our planet. If it were possible to take all the religions and lay out all the good they have done and then lay out the evil they have caused, I think the good would win (it might be a close race). Of course if you could strip the evil deeds done in the name of religion from the pile of evil, the good would certainly win. Humans have the amazing ability to take something good and turn it to evil purposes. Good and evil intertwine frequently (good motives, bad outcome; evil intent,positive result). That's one reason why its so frustrating living here-- even if you want to do good, sometimes it makes matters worse. I will probably listen to Mozart's "Requiem" as an antidote to this weeks happenings. The "Lux Aeterna" section always gets me. Vaughn Williams' "Variations on a Theme by Thomas Tallis" makes me feel better in times of mourning too. Bye, Lyle w.p. Lots of Happy. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:04:33 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Being contrary (As OT as could possibly be) On Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 01:16:33PM -0700, Castergine wrote: > To me, it was a foot in the door for a discussion very tangential to > the attack, no less Ecto. On a lot of lists this week, people who consider the list good friends have been posting upset messages in reaction to traumatic events. Quite often, what they have said has struck other people as offensive in ways that were off-topic to the lists. From what I've seen, the least effective and least compassionate thing done in response to these messages have been counter-messages, taking issues farther off-topic and instigating long threads about the side issue. In these troubled times, it might be best to allow people their outbursts on the list, and, if you must reply, to reply in personal mail to the poster. Respect the intelligence of the list members to recognize the points where the message's statements might be questionable, and have to compassion to recognize the context from which they come. Vickie posts rarely nowadays, but without her, Ecto would probably not have happened, and would not be the warm place that it is today. Recognizing that the posts, even if controversial, even if anger, come from the heart, and recognizing the context of these emotions, and not igniting gaffaish battles in response, is more appropriate, I think, to the history and mood and the list. (I'll be the first to admit that I've violated this in the past, but I've been called on it, and try to remind mindful of the damage that these battles can cause.) - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:37:20 -0600 From: "Earl J. Woods" Subject: RE: Being contrary (As OT as could possibly be) My first post, and I didn't want it to be controversial, but... > >--- Xenu's Sister wrote: > While one may argue that > without > religion, these regimes saw little reason _not_ to murder, As an atheist, I can tell you that I see many, many reasons not to murder. I don't need religion to tell me that murder is wrong, nor would the governments in question have been dissuaded from perpetrating any atrocities had they allowed religion to fluorish. That being said, I recognize that most theists don't need religion to know that murder is wrong, either. By the way, Xenu's Sister, I appreciated reading the Freedom From Religion press release. I hadn't run across it before tonight. And just to say something on topic...um, I'm a big fan of Kate Bush, and I love Chantal Kreviaziuk. Does Chantal qualify as Ecto? I'm new to all this... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:46:57 -0500 From: "Chad Lundgren" Subject: An Apology Hi all, In my previous post I mistakingly wrote: The poeple who commited the acts of terrorism are fanatics. They have little regard for life in general let alone their own. They believe that dying in this fashion guarantees them a place in heaven. In the Islamic faith this is now normal behaviour. This was a complete mistake on my part. I meant to say that this was normal beahviour for these fanatics and not for the whole of Islamic faith. I didn't re-read my post before I sent it off as I should have. In the following excerpt of my original post you can see that slurring the Islamic faith was not my intention. Right now in America there are Islamic people fearing for their lives from discrimination due to the acts of a few. To equate or link or paralell the actions of fanatics with the works of faith-based organizations is irresponsible at the very least. Again I'd like to publicly apologize for my error. Thanks, Chad ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:52:35 -0400 From: Michael Curry Subject: Sad, and far too easy to predict - ---------- Arab-Americans Attacked, Threatened By Melanie Coffee Associated Press Sept. 13 (AP)--Arab Americans and Muslims have been attacked, threatened and harassed in a backlash over the terrorist bloodbath, prompting President Bush to urge people not to take vengeance. "Our nation must be mindful that there are thousands of Arab-Americans that live in New York City who love the flag just as much" as other Americans, Bush said in a nationally televised telephone call Thursday to New York City's mayor and New York's governor. Wednesday night, police in Bridgeview, Ill., turned back 300 marchers--some waving American flags and shouting "USA! USA!" - --as they tried to march on a mosque in the Chicago suburb. Three demonstrators were arrested. There were no injuries and demonstrators were kept blocks from the closed Muslim house of worship. "I'm proud to be American and I hate Arabs and I always have," said 19-year-old Colin Zaremba who marched with the group from Oak Lawn. Federal authorities said they had identified more than a dozen hijackers of Middle Eastern descent in Tuesday's terror attacks in New York and Washington and have gathered evidence linking them to Saudi-born terror mastermind Osama bin Laden and other extremist networks. Ziad Asali, president of the Arab-American Anti-Discrimination Committee, expressed concern about both the bias incidents and Tuesday's terror attacks. "Arab Americans, in addition to feeling the intense depths of pain and anger at this attack we share with all our fellow citizens, are feeling deep anxiety about becoming the targets of anger from other Americans," he said. "We appeal to all Americans to bear in mind that crimes are the responsibility of the individuals who committed them, not ethnic or religious groups." In a show of patriotism, 45 people from the Islamic community in Tampa, Fla., registered with blood services to donate Wednesday, and 30 members of the Muslim Students Association at the University of South Florida signed up. "You feel the pain twice: once because of what has happened and once because of the looks you get," said Sami Al-Arian, an engineering teacher at the University of South Florida. In Dearborn, Mich., Issam Koussan said he bought large U.S. flags to fly in front of his home and outside his supermarket after men pulled into his parking lot and yelled threats and racial slurs at his customers. "I just feel I needed to show my loyalty to this country," Koussan told The Detroit News. Early Thursday, a Molotov cocktail was thrown against the side of the Islamic Society of Denton, Texas, causing an estimated $2,500 in damage, said Kiersten Dieterle, a spokeswoman for the Dallas suburb. The building was empty and there were no injuries. In Chicago, a firebomb was tossed Wednesday at an Arab-American community center. No injuries were reported. In nearby Palos Heights, a man who used the blunt end of a machete to attack a Moroccan gas station attendant was charged with a hate crime, police said. The attendant did not seek treatment. "The terrorists who committed these horrible acts would like nothing better than to see us tear at the fiber of our democracy and to trample on the rights of other Americans," Illinois Gov. George Ryan said. In Huntington, N.Y., a 75-year-old man who was drunk tried to run over a Pakistani woman in the parking lot of a shopping mall, police said. The man then followed the woman into a store and threatened to kill her for "destroying my country," authorities said. A man in a ski mask in Gary, Ind., fired an assault rifle at a gas station where a Yemen-born U.S. citizen born was working Wednesday, the Post Tribune of Merrillville, Ind., reported. Police were investigating it as a hate crime. In Tulsa, Okla., police said a Pakistani native was beaten by three men late Tuesday in a hate crime. The victim was in a fair condition at a hospital Thursday. Tamara Alfson, an American working at the Kuwait Embassy in Washington, spent Wednesday counseling frightened Kuwaiti students attending schools across the United States. "Some of them have already been harassed. People have been quite awful to them," said Alfson, an academic adviser to about 150 students. - ---------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:12:38 -0400 From: "Robert Lovejoy" Subject: Forward :: Michael Moore "Death Downtown" This was recently sent to me and I'm forwarding it on. Bob Subject: Michael Moore/Death Downtown Dear friends, I was supposed to fly today on the 4:30 PM American Airlines flight from LAX to JFK. But tonight I find myself stuck in L.A. with an incredible range of emotions over what has happened on the island where I work and live in New York City. My wife and I spent the first hours of the day -- after being awakened by phone calls from our parents at 6:40am PT -- trying to contact our daughter at school in New York and our friend JoAnn who works nearthe World Trade Center. I called JoAnn at her office. As someone picked up, the first tower imploded, and the person answering the phone screamed and ran out, leaving me no clue as to whether or not she or JoAnn would live. It was a sick, horrible, frightening day. On December 27, 1985 I found myself caught in the middle of a terrorist incident at the Vienna airport -- which left 30 people dead, both there and at the Rome airport. (The machine-gunning of passengers in each city was timed to occur at the same moment.) I do not feel like discussing that event tonight because it still brings up too much despair and confusion as to how and why I got to live? a fluke, a mistake, a few feet on the tarmac, and I am still here,there but for the grace of? Safe. Secure. I'm an American, living in America. I like my illusions. walk through a metal detector, I put my carry-ons through an x-ray machine, and I know all will be well. Here's a short list of my experiences lately with airport security: * At the Newark Airport, the plane is late at boarding everyone. The counter can't find my seat. So I am told to just "go ahead and get on" -- without a ticket! * At Detroit Metro Airport, I don't want to put the lunch I just bought at the deli through the x-ray machine so, as I pass through the metal detector, I hand the sack to the guard through the space between the detector and the x-ray machine. I tell him...It's just a sandwich. He believes me and doesn't bother to check. The sack has gone through neither security device. * At LaGuardia in New York, I check a piece of luggage, but decide to catch a later plane. The first plane leaves without me, but with my bag -- no one knowing what is in it. * Back in Detroit, I take my time getting off the commuter plane. By the time I have come down its stairs, the bus that takes the passengers to the terminal has left -- without me. I am alone on the tarmac, free to wander wherever I want. So I do. Eventually, I flag down a pick-up truck and an airplane mechanic gives me a ride the rest of the way to the terminal. * I have brought knives, razors; and once, my traveling companion brought a hammer and chisel. No one stopped us. Of course, I have gotten away with all of this because the airlines consider my safety SO important, they pay rent-a-cops $5.75 an hour to make sure the bad guys don't get on my plane. That is what my life is worth -- less than the cost of an oil change. Too harsh, you say? Well, chew on this: a first-year pilot on American Eagle (the commuter arm of American Airlines) receives around $15,000 a year in annual pay. That's right -- $15,000 for the person who has your life in his hands. Until recently, Continental Express paid a little over $13,000 a year. There was one guy, an American Eagle pilot, who had four kids so he went down to the welfare office and applied for food stamps -- and he was eligible! Someone on welfare is flying my plane? Is this for real? Yes, it is. So spare me the talk about all the precautions the airlines and the FAA is taking. They, like all businesses, are concerned about one thing -- the bottom line and the profit margin. Four teams of 3-5 people were all able to penetrate airport security on the same morning at 3 different airports and pull off this heinous act? My only response is -- that's all? Well, the pundits are in full diarrhea mode, gushing on about the terrorist threat and today's scariest dude on planet earth -- Osama bin Laden. Hey, who knows, maybe he did it. But, something just doesn't add up. Am I being asked to believe that this guy who sleeps in a tent in a desert has been training pilots to fly our most modern, sophisticated jumbo jets with such pinpoint accuracy that they are able to hit these three targets without anyone wondering why these planes were so far off path? Or am I being asked to believe that there were four religious/political fanatics who JUST HAPPENED to be skilled airline pilots who JUST HAPPENED to want to kill themselves today? Maybe you can find one jumbo jet pilot willing to die for the cause -- but FOUR? Okay, maybe you can -- I don't know. What I do know is that all day long I have heard everything about this bin Laden guy except this one fact -- WE created the monster known as Osama bin Laden! Where did he go to terrorist school? At the CIA! Don't take my word for it -- I saw a piece on MSNBC last year that laid it all out. When the Soviet Union occupied Afghanistan, the CIA trained him and his buddies in how to commits acts of terrorism against the Soviet forces. It worked! The Soviets turned and ran. Bin Laden was grateful for what we taught him and thought it might be fun to use those same techniques against us. We abhor terrorism -- unless we're the ones doing the terrorizing. We paid and trained and armed a group of terrorists in Nicaragua in the 1980s who killed over 30,000 civilians. That was OUR work. You and me. Thirty thousand murdered civilians and who the hell even remembers! We fund a lot of oppressive regimes that have killed a lot of innocent people, and we never let the human suffering THAT causes to interrupt our day one single bit. We have orphaned so many children, tens of thousands around the world, with our taxpayer-funded terrorism (in Chile, in Vietnam, in Gaza, in Salvador) that I suppose we shouldn't be too surprised when those orphans grow up and are a little whacked in the head from the horror we have helped cause. Yet, our recent domestic terrorism bombings have not been conducted by a guy from the desert but rather by our own citizens: a couple of ex-military guys who hated the federal government. From the first minutes of today's events, I never heard that possibility suggested. Why is that? (I did, P.) Maybe it's because the A-rabs are much better foils. A key ingredient in getting Americans whipped into a frenzy against a new enemy is the all-important race card. It's much easier to get us to hate when the object of our hatred doesn't look like us. Congressmen and Senators spent the day calling for more money for the military; one Senator on CNN even said he didn't want to hear any more talk about more money for education or health care -- we should have only one priority: our self-defense. Will we ever get to the point that we realize we will be more secure when the rest of the world isn't living in poverty so we can have nice running shoes? In just 8 months, Bush gets the whole world back to hating us again. He withdraws from the Kyoto agreement, walks us out of the Durban conference on racism, insists on restarting the arms race -- you name it, and Baby Bush has blown it all. The Senators and Congressmen tonight broke out in a spontaneous version of God Bless America? They're not a bad group of singers! Yes, God, please do bless us. Many families have been devastated tonight. This just is not right. They did not deserve to die. If someone did this to get back at Bush, then they did so by killing thousands of people who DID NOT VOTE for him! Boston, New York, DC, and the plane's destination of California -- these were places that voted AGAINST Bush! Why kill them? Why kill anyone? Such insanity? Let's mourn, let's grieve, and when it's appropriate let's examine our contribution to the unsafe world we live in. It doesn't have to be like this. Yours, Michael Moore mmflint@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:17:19 -0400 From: "Robert Lovejoy" Subject: Recent events; my take... It's not about atheists or religion but about complex aspects of morality. Somehow I feel that if we turn to violence, what may be the biblical prophecy of Armageddon could be upon us. But the nature of the evil perpetrated upon this country is so overwhelming as to boggle my mind with its fiendish design. Whatever is to happen will happen, and we riders of the storm may be in for some turbulent weather. I hope against hope for a ray of sunshine in this increasingly frightening world. And I hope we would have learned by now that when we hurt each other, we hurt ourselves. All of humanity is tied together by the common thread of life, and as the old song goes, "We are each other". What these evil beings did shall never go unpunished, for the law of Karma is irrevocable, for as ye sow so shall ye reap. I have no answers, only hope that the actions we may take will be the ones that reflect our spiritual values, and that we be judged fairly as surely as those that committed this act shall be judged fairly by God, or if you happen to be an atheist, then "What goes around comes around". Whether or not it is up to us to initiate this action in the form of War, either Holy or of Revenge, our underlying motives must be understood, and they must be True. "This isn't justice, this is revenge". If we are to act, let it really be for Justice. We should not hurt innocents to bring down the guilty; that is their way. The heroism displayed by the New Yorkers who rushed in to help was inspiring. The decision by the passengers of that ill fated flight to San Francisco to take back the plane and face certain death rather than die as victims plowing in to the Capitol spoke volumes about Service to Others (here I go again). Neither religion or atheism has a claim to the Truth. The real battle is in our souls: are we going to take the high ground or feed the cycle of violence? Each option is understandable. We are not Gods, but people. There is no doubt that the game is afoot. I still don't have any answers, but I don't want to see my friends fighting amongst each other over religion and atheism when there is no way of knowing for sure what is the Truth. Whatever we believe, I'll bet we were all outraged at what happened Tuesday Morning, and the way we respond to that challenge will define who we are and what we are about. I pray our response will be enlightened, but I fear it may not. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:42:05 +1200 From: "Karen Hester" Subject: thanks Kia Ora I just want to thank you people, my New Zealand friends and workmates and I have been feeling a weird combination of furious and sad at America (despite being 'American' myself) and you've calmed me, at least, down. I'll have to work on one of my flatmates - last night this thoroughly reasonable and very politically knowledgeable chap confided to me that "I know this is illogical, but what I'm really afraid of is that America is going to bomb New Zealand." :) I laughed, but I know how he feels - American's nationalism and militarism are pretty strong and something we don't quite understand ... it seems 'fanatical', to use an overused and underdefined term. Maybe, Foghorn (enjoyed your email), there is some difference between fanaticism and passion. Maybe passionate music lovers and religious believers and nationalists enjoy exploring new elements of these and new experiences, acknowledge and try to rectify past errors, and develop and extend their passion, rather than live by the fixed text of a frozen belief. I (we all) have been distraught down in New Zealand, at first out of grief and trying to understand something incomprehensible. That sadness will not lessen despite later developments, but very soon many of us also have felt incomprehension then horror and disgust at how divergent the US response that is reported in NZ has been to that of other 'Western' populations and medias. Not television media, so much, because that usually favours images and emotions rather than reflection and analysis, but with calls in a Washington paper for a *nuclear* response, and 'Why do 'Arab's hate us' news reports that a non-American 8-year-old would find simplistic and euphemistic to the point of lying (from memory, "some Arabs feel that the US has contributed to Israel's actions towards Palestinians"), and the peculiar lack of knowledge in some quarters about the less admirable international acts of the US, or the US$3 billion in support and weaponry given to the even then ferverently anti-democratic, anti-American but also anti-Soviet groups in Afghanistan, where the Taliban grew from, and news reports full of the Christian God (an important part of many individual's recovery, but does it/He belong in media and government responses?) ... and ... why do the US news reports demonstrating that not all Arabs are bad show only long-time US citizens who aren't Islamic? ... and so on. So thanks for the reasonable voices and grasping for ways to handle a tragedy that do justice to the horror of loss of life, including lives outside of America. Anger and hatred are probably natural psychological states resulting from grief and shock, so thanks for your thoughts on the Marshall Plan, Dan (that was a different America than the one that refuses to pay the UN!), and thanks Phil and Christopher and John and so on. Best wishes, Karen ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 02:41:15 +0100 From: "Martin G Bridges" Subject: RE: Being contrary (As OT as could possibly be) > i'm sorry but this is over the top. are you telling us that these people did > this in the name of athiesm?? are you serious? athiesm is not a religion. > they did this in the name of communism. i dont speak for the other athiests > on ecto but i have never been a communist. thank you. You have a bloody strange definition of communism then (not that I'd ever claim I was communist). This harks back to McCarthyism - everyone anti-American must be communist. Garbage. Anyway, less of this. I am as devastated and stunned as everyone else by the outrages of Tuesday. I am so glad that (so far) common sense has prevailed and no acts of retribution (as opposed to justice) have been undertaken. I hope this list gets back to music, and I hope the world at large gets back to life as normal (without forgetting the wreckage of peoples lives), otherwise the idiots who did this will have won. Martin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 01:24:25 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Re: ecto,music and the "human spirit" Hi, Steve noted: >I haven't heard for certain that all the musical performances intended >for tonight have been called off or rescheduled, but the two >performances I most wanted to see -- Susan's and a They Might Be Giants >show later -- were both scheduled for tonight. It's also ironic that >they're both New York-based groups. > >Apparently a candlelight vigil event is supposed to happen instead. >Maybe I'm being selfish but I don't see that as being as life-affirming >as what was originally intended. I just got back from night 1 of the Eli Whitney Folk Festival, a song swap featuring Jess Klein, The Kennedys, Lui Collins and a local performer named Al Raebuck. Our venue was a beautiful church, which was filled with people who were ready to gather together and listen to music and forget about the world for a little while. I think it's a testament to how this week has affected me, that I didn't cringe at the corniness of the "This Land Is Our Land" singalong at the end. :} Our organization, the New Haven Folk Alliance didn't think twice about keeping the Festival going. Folk music is all about bringing peace through artistic expression. If we were to cancel the event, the terrorists would have scored a victory. Neal mentioned: >Also, I've been strongly tempted to wade through my piles of tapes looking >for a bootleg I have somewhere. I saw Nanci Griffith perform a few days >after the Oklahoma City bombing, and she played a heartrending version of >It's A Hard Life Wherever You Go (from Storms). She's our headliner tomorrow night -- I wouldn't be surprised if she were to play that song again. I don't know if anyone else was able to tune in to Valerie's show this morning at wpkn.org, but she put together a great program of music. Strangely enough, the somber music didn't get me too much, but when she played KaTe's "Jig Of Life" (at the request of her sister, who said she needed to liven things up a bit), *that*'s when I lost it. "Never ever say goodbye to that part of your life..." ======================================= Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth "things are more beautiful when they're obscure" -- veda hille ======================================= Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 01:32:01 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Re: Forward :: Michael Moore "Death Downtown" Hi, Uncle Bob forwarded: >This was recently sent to me and I'm forwarding it on. Thanks, Bob. As he often does, Michael Moore has an excellent point. Today, several companies in the building where I work had "red, white and blue day". This involved employees wearing those colors and flag pins, and flyers posted on their front doors with American flags printed on, saying "GOD BLESS AMERICA". Thank the gods my company didn't join the jingoism parade. This sort of blind patriotism is *exactly* what got the US into this mess in the first place. It's sickening. And then I check the news and see that President Bush's approval rating has soared to 80%, and 90% of people polled want us to go to war to eradicate terrorism from the face of the earth. Why is it that the pollsters never call me??? For that matter, why don't they ever call anyone I know, regardless of the degree of separation? The conspiracy theorist in me has an idea about this, but I won't rant about it here. I guess I'll just leave it at this: if anyone lurking out there works for Gallup or knows someone who does, e-me and I'll give you my phone number to pass along. That's one telemarketing list I desperately want to be on, dammit. ======================================= Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth "things are more beautiful when they're obscure" -- veda hille ======================================= Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://www.smoe.org/meth/muzak.html ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V7 #263 **************************