From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V7 #262 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Friday, September 14 2001 Volume 07 : Number 262 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Being contrary (As OT as could possibly be) [kitty kat ] ecto,music and the "human spirit" ["Jim Salih" ] Re: Being contrary (As OT as could possibly be) [FAMarcus@aol.com] Re: Being contrary and the Rest of the Posts ["Chad Lundgren" ] FW: September 15 benefit for the American Red Cross [Sherlyn Koo ] Fwd: Re: Being contrary (As OT as could possibly be) [Castergine ] Richard Shindell news [Michael Curry ] And so it begins.... (Senate votes to permit warrantless Net-wiretaps, Carnivore use) [Michael Curry <] FW: Just checking in... ["Foghorn J Fornorn" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:16:38 -0700 (PDT) From: kitty kat Subject: Re: Being contrary (As OT as could possibly be) Woah! Almost everything's been off-topic this week, because everyone's struggling to deal with something that's beyond the scope of what we've dealt with before. The point wasn't to be anti-religious, it was to be anti-state-sanctioned-religion, which was sort of one of the things built into the US Constitution. I don't believe that it's disputed that historically most wars have come about at least in some part due to religious conflict, and the problem comes when people believe that they are in the right because "God says so". Twisted as it seems, the hijackers of those planes believed that God would reward them for it. It's irresponsible for the President to make it a "lets come together and pray to the Real God, since those evil people most believe in a Fake God" issue when we're trying to promote the fact that we shouldn't turn on people no matter what their religious beliefs, or lack thereof. To be religiously tolerant, you need to be tolerant of atheism, too. - -K On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Castergine wrote: > Tell you what, Vicki. You don't post any more offensive tirades against > religion and it's effects on our society and I won't post any offensive > tirades against atheism and *it's* effects on our society. Fair 'nough? > > > We should keep it out of ecto. There's already a forum for drawn-out > religious, philiosophical and political debates -- rec.music.gaffa. ;) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:29:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "Xenu's Sister" Subject: Re: Being contrary (As OT as could possibly be) - --- Castergine wrote: > Tell you what, Vicki. You don't post any more > offensive tirades against religion and it's > effects on our society and I won't post any > offensive tirades against atheism and *it's* > effects on our society. Fair 'nough? Not fair 'nough. What was so offensive about what I posted? The bit about Fallwell and Robertson? Or the bit about God and whose "prayers" he chooses to answer? (the terrorists, those who got out and "thanked god" for looking out for them, and everyone who wasn't at the scene, but not those who were on the planes, those who got blammed by the planes, those who burned up in the inferno, those who were hit by debris, those who plummeted down the elevator shafts and those who were crushed by the buildings. Oh, and all those rescue workers too.) Atheism has *NEVER* caused a tiny fraction of the horror and damage and pain and suffering that religion has. I know that "Belief" can help people and comfort people, and mostly I can ignore it. But sometimes the fervor gets to be a bit much. People wrapping themselves up in flags (I saw it literally happen today at a gathering in Chicago) *and* religion can turn into a very scary thing indeed. Vickie __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:47:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Castergine Subject: Re: Being contrary (As OT as could possibly be) - --- Xenu's Sister wrote: > --- Castergine wrote: > > Tell you what, Vicki. You don't post any more > > offensive tirades against religion and it's > > effects on our society and I won't post any > > offensive tirades against atheism and *it's* > > effects on our society. Fair 'nough? > > Not fair 'nough. What was so offensive > about what I posted? The bit about Fallwell > and Robertson? Or the bit about God and > whose "prayers" he chooses to answer?) Actually it was the hyperbolic bit that implies that how even a non-denominational call for a day of prayer and remembrance in the wake of a disaster is equivalent to state-sanctioned religion or some sort of jihad. > Atheism has *NEVER* caused a tiny fraction > of the horror and damage and pain and suffering > that religion has. If that's true at all it would only be because, statistically, there haven't been as many atheists in power in world history. However, China, Cuba and the Soviet Union, just three of the powerful atheistic modern states, all worked hard in the last century to even the score. Stalin and Mao were responsible for the deaths of millions and millions in purges. Given their banner leadership, I think we can say that if the bulk of the atrocities have not been committed by atheists, the very worst have. So, please take your "non-holier-than-thou" attitude somewhere else. The FFRF wants to take what is essentially acts of political and cultural terrorism and war and use it as a lever to cast its disdain on any public display of religious faith. It's as bad as saying that the Moslem praying in front of a mosque or asking for peace in the name of Allah is the same as the suicide bomber dying to kill Jews and Americans in Allah's name. Bush didn't ask for a Holy War in the name of the God of America, for pity's sake, he just suggested prayer and remembrance in a dark hour. If you're religious and it suits you, pray. If you're atheist and it suits you, remember. But don't act like it's a threat to freedom and rational thought. Stu ===== castergine@yahoo.com All young gentle dreams drowning In life's grief Can you hang on to me? -Kate Bush, _Big Stripey Lie_ __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:15:18 -0700 From: Phil Hudson Subject: Ecto people rock! Having been on Ecto for a while, and having seen the generally noise-and-static-free, supportive environment it offers, I think it's a remarkable testament to our members that it takes something as dark and horrible as these recent events have produced to create such conflicting opinions amongst us. Even in our differences, the threads have been largely flame-free expressions of widely varying and heartfelt opinions. (Try saying that about Congress!) What a great community. Phil ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 04:18:31 -0500 From: "Jim Salih" Subject: ecto,music and the "human spirit" This is to me what ecto is all about. >From the folks at Rhino Handmade http://www.rhinohandmade.com/ (an edited version) "Music is a powerful medicine. Just as certainly and swiftly as it can provide the fabric for celebration and rejoicing, it can provide the comfort for both grief and loss. Just as certainly and swiftly as its rhythms can move one's feet and arms, its rhymes can calm one's heart and soul. Its beauty and power can remind us of the astounding possibility of the glory and bliss of the human spirit at times when events in the world around us do nothing but remind us of the mindlessness and brutality of hatred.".......... "Listening to music will not bring anyone back to life. And it will not reverse the calendar. But it will remind us of all of the reasons we all automatically and intrinsically cherish life. And of all of the reasons this loss of so many lives is so mindnumbingly horrific." R W Hand Curator Rhino Handmade Institute Of Petromusicology Love to All, Jim ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:20:33 EDT From: FAMarcus@aol.com Subject: Re: Being contrary (As OT as could possibly be) In a message dated 9/14/01 4:18:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, castergine@yahoo.com writes: << I've never seen an anti-religious person be argued out of his or her views or a religious person be argued out of his or her views on the net. >> just to make this clear.............i am not anti religious. i am an athiest. i would die in support of your right to worship and believe, in this, a free society. i would just prefer that we all did it in private. fred marcus ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:27:36 -0500 From: "Chad Lundgren" Subject: Re: Being contrary and the Rest of the Posts Lo all; In the wake of what's occured this week, I just have a lot of problems with what I've been reading on the ecto list lately. This is not to say that people don't have a right to their opinions or to express them on a free forum such as this. It's just that with the 24 hr. news coverage on every station, the analysis and over-analysis of the events leading up to and since the disaster, the last place I needed to find political debate was on Ecto. It saddens the hell out of me. I've been walking around in a complete daze. I didn't know anyone that is presumed missing or dead, but this has still hit me hard in a place I haven't been able to pinpoint yet. I keep thinking over and over about what the right thing to do should be. I can't find any answers and that frustrates me to no end. If we use a military response, will it perpetuate the anti-American feelings in the Middle East? Most likely. If we do nothing, will that end the cycle of violence and change the hearts of those who hate us and our culture? Probably not. The hatred is deeply ingrained for whatever reason. I'm not naive. I know what our government has done and is capable of. But when I see video of people celebrating the attacks that occured I feel astonished, angry, and sad. What is right? I don't have the answers. I'm not in a position to, nor would I want to be. > In the wake of reading that Jerry Falwell and > Pat Robertson said liberal civil liberties > groups, feminists, homosexuals and abortion > rights supporters bear partial responsibility > for Tuesday's terrorist attacks (because their > actions have turned God's anger against America) > and also having to endure a week of religious > yap (hey, God *answered* prayers...those of > the terrorists! Didn't anyone hear what bin > Laden said??), this is SUCH a breath of > fresh air! Please understand the difference between the majority of religious and/or spiritual peoople and those who are fanatics. It always seemed to me that people like Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell use religion as a too to further their own personal power moreso that the spiritual well-being of the people they claim to serve. I don't identify with them in any way, shape, or form. > Statement on September 11 Terrorism > > Acts of Terrorism the Ultimate "Faith-Based > Initiative"? > > September 13, 2001 > > This statement was released by the Freedom > From Religion Foundation, a Madison, Wis.-based > national association of freethinkers (atheists > and agnostics) working to protect the > constitutional separation of church and > state since 1978. Think about this first statement. The association between the word freethinkers with atheists and agnostics in this context is to imply that those of any religious or spiritual belief are not freethinkers. This is an example of an arrogant, self-important point of view and one that is no less offensive than some viewpoints expressed by Messrs. Robertson and Falwell. It boggles my mind that in a time where President Bush is calling for "prayer and remembrance" people would choose to focus not on the well-meaning behind the idea, but instead see it as a possibly oppresive act. Is this really what deserves our attention? > In fact, it appears that the terrorist disasters > of September 11 may well have been the ultimate > "faith-based initiative." These terrorists > apparently expected to find a reward "in heaven" > and were bent on starting a "holy war" with our > nation. This is the ultimate insult. The identifying of this terrorist act as a "faith-based initiative" as if to link it to "faith-based initiatives" that Bush supports in the federal budget is in such poor taste. Understand the difference between religous people and religious fantatics. The poeple who commited the acts of terrorism are fanatics. They have little regard for life in general let alone their own. They believe that dying in this fashion guarantees them a place in heaven. In the Islamic faith this is now normal behaviour. Right now in America there are Islamic people fearing for their lives from discrimination due to the acts of a few. To equate or link or paralell the actions of fanatics with the works of faith-based organizations is irresponsible at the very least. It appalls me to see this organization using this tragedy as a way to further their own political agenda. It makes them no better than Robertson or Falwell or people in the government that will possibly use this attack as an excuse to further their agend in the Middle East. I don't find this to be a breath of fresh air. I just see it as further evidence of how messed up modern day society is. They say that in stressful times we cling to that which comforts us. Apparently for some it is their conviction in their own political beliefs. It disapponts me. So send out positive energyto those in need or who are working to help, pray for them, or reflect inwardly....whatever helps you get through the hurt. Still trying, Chad ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:40:46 -0700 From: "Vienna Teng" Subject: from around the world Still off-topic, but a break from the touchy political discussion (which I also applaud for staying relatively civil -- amazing at a time like this!): http://uweb.ucsb.edu/~deter/thankyou.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:37:51 +1000 (EST) From: Sherlyn Koo Subject: FW: September 15 benefit for the American Red Cross Hey folks, For those of you in the Seattle area, this came to me via the indiegrrl list... - -sherlyn - ---begin forwarded message--- Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:03:40 -0700 From: Holly Figueroa Subject: September 15 benefit for the American Red Cross Hi There, There will be a benefit for the American Red Cross in Seattle on Saturday, September 15. All songwriters are welcome to come and share a song, and donate to the cause. For information, read below or email john.albert@att.net Concert Anouncement and invitation to perform: > >Seattle Folklore Society Presents: "A Healing Concert" > >Where: >The Grateful Bread (206) 525-3166 >7001 35th Ave NE, Seattle > >When: >Saturday September 15 at 8pm > >This is a free concert but donations will be accepted >and given to the American Red Cross in support of the >relief effort in New York and Washington. > >Seattle area musicians, singers & songwriters will gather >for a night of music and healing in support of the >Amercian Red Cross. > >The format will be a "writers in the round" style >concert in which all who come and wish to offer a song >will be welcome. > >A minister from the Unitarian Chruch will offer a >message of healing and prayer. > >Please pass this message on to friends and family. > >Thanks .... >-- >John Albert >Voice/Fax: 206/985-1757 >Mobil/Page: 206/601-5312 - -- Holly Figueroa http://www.hollyfigueroa.com * http://www.indiegrrlrecords.com http://www.cdbaby.com/figueroa *http://www.mp3.com/hollyfigueroa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:45:47 EDT From: FAMarcus@aol.com Subject: Re: Being contrary (As OT as could possibly be) In a message dated 9/14/01 4:50:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, castergine@yahoo.com writes: << If that's true at all it would only be because, statistically, there haven't been as many atheists in power in world history. However, China, Cuba and the Soviet Union, just three of the powerful atheistic modern states, all worked hard in the last century to even the score. Stalin and Mao were responsible for the deaths of millions and millions in purges. Given their banner leadership, I think we can say that if the bulk of the atrocities have not been committed by atheists, the very worst have. So, please take your "non-holier-than-thou" attitude somewhere else. >> i'm sorry but this is over the top. are you telling us that these people did this in the name of athiesm?? are you serious? athiesm is not a religion. they did this in the name of communism. i dont speak for the other athiests on ecto but i have never been a communist. thank you. fred "better dead than red" marcus ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:45:57 -0500 From: John Higdon Subject: Re: Being contrary (As OT as could possibly be) At 01:47 PM 9/14/01 -0700, Castergine wrote: >--- Xenu's Sister wrote: > > Atheism has *NEVER* caused a tiny fraction > > of the horror and damage and pain and suffering > > that religion has. >If that's true at all it would only be because, statistically, there >haven't been as many atheists in power in world history. However, >China, Cuba and the Soviet Union, just three of the powerful atheistic >modern states, all worked hard in the last century to even the score. >Stalin and Mao were responsible for the deaths of millions and millions >in purges. Given their banner leadership, I think we can say that if >the bulk of the atrocities have not been committed by atheists, the >very worst have. Committed by atheists and committed by atheism are not the same thing. I doubt that one could successfully argue that any person or group has committed mass murder _because_ they were atheist. There is no message in atheism to distort for a cause. The actions of Stalin and Mao were presumably more about consolidation of power and paranoia than from anti-religious belief. (Or from near-religious political fervor.) Actions that atheistic governments have taken against religious groups have likely been because these groups were seen to be destabilizing or actively opposing influences to their regimes. While one may argue that without religion, these regimes saw little reason _not_ to murder, it can also be argued that religion has traditionally not been much of a hindrance to man's rationalization of heinous deeds. Indeed, as in the current case, it has often been used as a part of that rationalization. Tuesday's actions could not have happened without religion, as it takes religious fervor to end one's own life (and the lives of many others) in the hopes of greater rewards _after_ death. While, as a former atheist (I'm now slowly delving into Wicca), I don't personally see anything wrong with a National Day of Prayer (so long as it's this once and we don't turn it into some official holiday or something), I have been a bit worried myself about some religious aspects. While at work today, I happened to catch part of Billy Graham's speech on TV, where he was calling for increased spirituality. My thought at the time was, I bet that's exactly what Bin Laden's been calling for, too. Graham's argument that the dead are in a better place, and that they wouldn't want to come back even if they could, might be heartening to the survivors, but it's that denigrating of the current world with respect to the next that would have been Bin Laden's argument to a potential suicide bomber. (And this is nothing to a pair of billboards I've passed a few times here in Missouri. I quote, "A friend of the World is the enemy of God". I would be surprised if Bin Laden had never said exactly that phrase to his followers.) And of course, we love to call our enemies "evil" to rationalize anything we do against them, and Bush and Co are following this line from the rule book to a T. Overall, I'm torn. I've experienced some of that "nuke Afghanistan" bloodlust myself. But the other side of me worries about what we eventually _will_ end up doing. We're told to all support the President, but what if we feel that he's about to do more wrong? John Higdon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:48:06 -0700 (PDT) From: "Xenu's Sister" Subject: Re: Being contrary It's Friday afternoon, I'm too busy to think, I'm *terrible* at debate, and I have to get out of here in time to go see Moulin Rouge (again!) because I need bright colors and Ewan McGregor in my life right now. My POV about the fervor (or possible escalating fervor) is colored by the fact that I live in a neighborhood that's predominately Middle Eastern. It's been scary walking to and from the trains and stores for the past few days and *only* because I'm scared of retaliatory redneck yahoos who might want to get themselves some Arabs. I fear for the people in that truly wonderful neighborhood, I fear for the neighborhood itself and yes, I fear being caught in the middle of some misguided "payback." The area has been quiet so far but I hear these reports of violence from around the country and tremble. That's all. (Btw, the company I work for had an office on the 38th floor of the North Tower, but everyone got out alright. However, someone from our Columbus office lost a brother who was one of the first firefighters to go in. Six degrees...) Vickie __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:51:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Castergine Subject: Fwd: Re: Being contrary (As OT as could possibly be) - --- Castergine wrote: > Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:48:12 -0700 (PDT) > From: Castergine > Subject: Re: Being contrary (As OT as could possibly be) > To: FAMarcus@aol.com > > But they are (or were, in the USSR's case) specifically atheist > nations, operating under an atheist philosophy and government. Their > actions are directly reflective on the concept of atheism's worth as > a > basis for a social order as an alternative to one with a religious > basis. > > Stu > > --- FAMarcus@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 9/14/01 4:50:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > castergine@yahoo.com writes: > > > > << If that's true at all it would only be because, statistically, > > there > > haven't been as many atheists in power in world history. However, > > China, Cuba and the Soviet Union, just three of the powerful > > atheistic > > modern states, all worked hard in the last century to even the > > score. > > Stalin and Mao were responsible for the deaths of millions and > > millions > > in purges. Given their banner leadership, I think we can say that > if > > the bulk of the atrocities have not been committed by atheists, > the > > very worst have. So, please take your "non-holier-than-thou" > > attitude > > somewhere else. >> > > > > > > i'm sorry but this is over the top. are you telling us that these > > people did > > this in the name of athiesm?? are you serious? athiesm is not a > > religion. > > they did this in the name of communism. i dont speak for the > other > > athiests > > on ecto but i have never been a communist. thank you. > > > > > > fred "better dead than red" marcus > > > ===== > castergine@yahoo.com > All young gentle dreams drowning > In life's grief > Can you hang on to me? -Kate Bush, _Big Stripey Lie_ > > __________________________________________________ > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > Donate cash, emergency relief information > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > ===== castergine@yahoo.com All young gentle dreams drowning In life's grief Can you hang on to me? -Kate Bush, _Big Stripey Lie_ __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:14:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Castergine Subject: Re: Being contrary (As OT as could possibly be) - --- John Higdon wrote: > At 01:47 PM 9/14/01 -0700, Castergine wrote: > >--- Xenu's Sister wrote: > > > > Atheism has *NEVER* caused a tiny fraction > > > of the horror and damage and pain and suffering > > > that religion has. > >If that's true at all it would only be because, statistically, there > >haven't been as many atheists in power in world history. However, > >China, Cuba and the Soviet Union, just three of the powerful > atheistic > >modern states, all worked hard in the last century to even the > score. > >Stalin and Mao were responsible for the deaths of millions and > millions > >in purges. Given their banner leadership, I think we can say that if > >the bulk of the atrocities have not been committed by atheists, the > >very worst have. > > Committed by atheists and committed by atheism are not the > same > thing. I doubt that one could successfully argue that any person or > group > has committed mass murder _because_ they were atheist. > There is no > message > in atheism to distort for a cause. That's so wrong. The message that there is no god is a message in itself. It is, in fact, a religious philosophy in itself, and it can be used, and has been used, to justify many atrocities. The fact that atheists either don't realize or acknowledge that atheism is, in fact, a religion, is one of its most ironic points. > The actions of Stalin and Mao > were > presumably more about consolidation of power and paranoia than from > anti-religious belief. (Or from near-religious political fervor.) > Actions > that atheistic governments have taken against religious groups have > likely > been because these groups were seen to be destabilizing or actively > opposing influences to their regimes. You're right and you're wrong. Religion of any kind is naturally destabilizing to any society that bases itself on the concept that there is no god and the government is the ultimate authority. Christians under Soviet and Chinese rule have been oppressed because they preach that there is a higher authority than the government. Yeah, that's destabilizing, but that's in direct conflict with the government's atheistic religious philosophy. The same thing has been true with many religions under communist rule. Either the religion must so secularize itself and submit itself to the government that it loses all real religious function, or it is a threat. > While one may argue that > without > religion, these regimes saw little reason _not_ to murder, Quite. > it can > also be > argued that religion has traditionally not been much of a hindrance > to > man's rationalization of heinous deeds. Not much. Because man is man. But it has been one of the few real hindrances. Religion has been used in the name of peace at least as often as it has been used in the name of war. The fact that it has been used both ways is more a reflection on man than on religion. > Indeed, as in the current > case, it > has often been used as a part of that rationalization. Tuesday's > actions > could not have happened without religion, as it takes religious > fervor to > end one's own life (and the lives of many others) in the hopes of > greater > rewards _after_ death. Only religious fanatics commit suicide attacks? I'm sure it looks that way, but inherently true I doubt. If one hates enough, for whatever, reason, or is passionate enough about something, one can be willing to give one's life for it. Isn't every soldier who's ever charged a machine gun nest, in a sense, committing a suicide attack? The odds of an individual surviving are very low, you only succeed by having enough try at once that they can't get you all. Many people have killed and goen to certain death for other than religious causes. > While, as a former atheist (I'm now slowly delving into > Wicca), I > don't personally see anything wrong with a National Day of Prayer (so > long > as it's this once and we don't turn it into some official holiday or > something), I have been a bit worried myself about some religious > aspects. While at work today, I happened to catch part of Billy > Graham's > speech on TV, where he was calling for increased spirituality. My > thought > at the time was, I bet that's exactly what Bin Laden's been calling > for, > too. Graham's argument that the dead are in a better place, and that > they > wouldn't want to come back even if they could, might be heartening to > the > survivors, but it's that denigrating of the current world with > respect to > the next that would have been Bin Laden's argument to a potential > suicide > bomber. Equivocating those two different intents for similar sentiments isn't quite fair. It's wrong to say that because someone believes in an afterlife, they are denigrating this life, or are a danger because they may value their life on earth less. You extrapolate too far when you suggest that because suicide bomber terrorists are bad, all people who believe in rewards in the afterlife are cause for worry. > Overall, I'm torn. I've experienced some of that "nuke > Afghanistan" bloodlust myself. But the other side of me worries > about what > we eventually _will_ end up doing. We're told to all support the > President, but what if we feel that he's about to do more wrong? Support. Don't follow blindly. That's what makes this America. We can publically disagree with Bush and get away with it. Stu ===== castergine@yahoo.com All young gentle dreams drowning In life's grief Can you hang on to me? -Kate Bush, _Big Stripey Lie_ __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:32:15 -0400 From: Ian Clysdale Subject: Off-Topic: Global Appeal Against Violence As a sort of follow-up to my last message, I'd like to mention that the Canadian NGO Coalition Against the Arms Trade have started a page for people to sign a global appeal against the escalation of violence. For anyone who would like to put their name to this appeal, their web site is at http://www.flora.org/coat/appeal/ Feel free to distribute this address freely. (ObEcto: Sorry for the political digressions, especially from a lurker. I promise this is my last on-list burstout. However, I've been meaning to post for a while to say that I picked up the Cry Cry Cry album a few months ago, after having missed it for a while, and it has just been *stuck* in my CD player. I don't remember having seen very much discussion about it on here when it came out, and I'm now quite surprised; I might just have been busy and ignoring ectomail, though.) np First of June, Where the Wind Blows ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:33:33 -0600 (MDT) From: Neal Copperman Subject: Cry Cry Cry + Laurie Anderson On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Ian Clysdale wrote: > I promise this is my last on-list burstout. However, I've been meaning > to post for a while to say that I picked up the Cry Cry Cry album a few > months ago, after having missed it for a while, and it has just been > *stuck* in my CD player. I don't remember having seen very much discussion > about it on here when it came out, and I'm now quite surprised; I might > just have been busy and ignoring ectomail, though.) I think you were just busy. It is well loved amongst ectophiles fond of modern folk/acoustic music. Any DC folk going to see Laurie Anderson this week? From past experience, I suspect she will have some interesting things to mix into her show. And for those mourning the failur of Moby Dick to appear on her new release, I noticed in the Washington Post article that the London concert was recorded and is expected to be released on DVD. Hmmm, that might be the place for me to start my DVD collection. neal np: Still - Sue Garner and Rick Brown ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:36:34 -0400 From: Michael Curry Subject: Richard Shindell news >Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:22:43 -0400 >To: richard-shindell-announce@shore.net >From: Young/Hunter Management >Subject: Richard Shindell Announcement - 9/13/01 > >To all the good people of this list, > >I just wanted to say that I'm down here in Buenos Aires in a state of >profound sadness and frustration. I wish I were back in my beloved New York >- if only just to talk to, or weep with, some perfect stranger in the >street. Not that that hasn't happened here. Neighbors in our apartment >building have been stopping by to tell me how sorry they are, and to ask if >I have family & friends who might have been hurt (I do not, thank >God). These little acts of kindness have meant a lot to me. > >I'm writing to all of you for the same reason that these folks have been >ringing the doorbell - to reinforce the "chords of human kindness" that >have "come undone" so horribly. I think this is something that we all need >to do, in whatever ways we can. > >I am here, but my heart is there with all of you. I send you my love, and I >pray that you and yours are well. > >Richard > > >========== > >9/20** Towne Crier Cafe, Pawling, NY, 845-855-1300 >9/21** Memorial Hall Theater, Shelburne Falls, MA, 413-625-2526 >9/22** Peterborough Players Theater, Peterborough, NH, 603-827-2905 >9/23** Unity Ctr. for Performing Arts, Unity, ME 207-948-7469 >9/24 Slates Restaurant, Hallowell, ME, 207-622-9575 >9/26 Rosendale Cafe, Rosendale, NY, 845-658-9048 >9/27** Four Corners Grill, New London, NH, 603-526-6899 >9/28** Me & Thee Coffeehouse, Marblehead, MA, 781-631-8987 >9/29** Grace Norton Rogers School, Hightstown, NJ, 609-259-5764 >10/17 Club Helsinki, Great Barrington, MA, 413-528-3394 >10/18 Drylongso Coffeehouse, West Ossippi, NH, 603-323-2348 >10/20 Brookdale Perf Arts Ctr, Lincroft, NJ, 732-224-2411 (w/Jill Sobule) >10/21 Cabin Concerts, Wayne, NJ, 973-616-0853 > > >** Amy Rigby opens > > >========== > >Richard and Ben Wisch are just finishing up work on the new live album, >recorded in February and March this year. The record will be relased in >February 2002 on Richard Shindell Recordings/Signature Sounds but we should >have copies available in time for the holidays. We'll let you know. > >Amy Rigby joins Richard for several of the September shows. If you are not >familiar with her, she is a wonderful singer/songwriter whose three albums >on Koch records combine winning melodies with witty, moving lyrics >detailing the transition from being a Hoboken-in-the-80's era punk/popster >to a working single mother in the 90's and 00's. http://www.amyrigby.com > >Lastly, Richard's friend Lucy Kaplansky's new album, Every Single Day, is >available now. On the album, Lucy's fourth, she reunites the stellar >musicians from her previous album "Ten Year Night": Ben Wittman as >producer/drummer, Larry Campbell, Duke Levine, Jon Herington, Zev Katz, and >on vocals Jennifer Kimball, John Gorka, and Richard Shindell. Visit Lucy's >website for details: http://www.lucykaplansky.com > > > >========== > > >If you want off this list, drop a note to majordomo@shore.net with the >following in the body: unsubscribe richard-shindell-announce > >Join the Richard DISCUSSION list by sending an e-mail to majordomo@smoe.org >with the following in the body: subscribe shindell-list-digest ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:37:46 -0400 From: Michael Curry Subject: And so it begins.... (Senate votes to permit warrantless Net-wiretaps, Carnivore use) >Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:14:37 -0400 >From: Declan McCullagh >To: politech@politechbot.com >Subject: FC: Senate votes to permit warrantless Net-wiretaps, Carnivore use >X-URL: Politech is at http://www.politechbot.com/ > >Text of the Hatch-Feinstein "Combating Terrorism Act of 2001": >http://www.politechbot.com/docs/cta.091401.html > >Muddled debate over the amendment: >http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/s091301.html > >-Declan > >******** > >http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,46852,00.html > > Senate OKs FBI Net Spying > By Declan McCullagh (declan@wired.com) > 12:55 p.m. Sep. 14, 2001 PDT > > WASHINGTON -- FBI agents soon may be able to spy on Internet users > legally without a court order. > > On Thursday evening, two days after the worst terrorist attack in U.S. > history, the Senate approved the "Combating Terrorism Act of 2001," > which enhances police wiretap powers and permits monitoring in more > situations. > > The measure, proposed by Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) and Dianne Feinstein > (D-California), says any U.S. attorney or state attorney general can > order the installation of the FBI's Carnivore surveillance system. > Previously, there were stiffer restrictions on Carnivore and other > Internet surveillance techniques. > > Its bipartisan sponsors argue that such laws are necessary to thwart > terrorism. "It is essential that we give our law enforcement > authorities every possible tool to search out and bring to justice > those individuals who have brought such indiscriminate death into our > backyard," Hatch said during the debate on the Senate floor. > > [...] > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list >You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. >Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ >To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html >This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:24:30 -0400 From: "Foghorn J Fornorn" Subject: FW: Just checking in... Another NYC based musician reports in, safe. - -----Original Message----- From: Deni Bonet [mailto:Deni@denibonet.com] Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 11:16 AM Subject: Just checking in... I would like to tell you all that I am safe, as are those I love and work and play with. I want to express my deepest sympathy to those who have lost family and friends in this horrible tragedy. And I also want to thank the many, many people who have contacted me over the past few days to see if we are OK. I live in New York City, and have been here in the midst of all the weirdness during this catastrophe. I can only say that I have experienced first hand the amazing human spirit of New York City, and the outpouring of love from the rest of the world. Thank you all I send you all my love and support, Deni ................................................................ ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V7 #262 **************************