From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V7 #259 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Thursday, September 13 2001 Volume 07 : Number 259 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Fw: Canadian editorial on America [Joseph Zitt ] Re: your friend [Michael Bravo ] NYC Disaster ["Donald G. Keller" ] Re: New York [Dan Riley ] Re: ecto-digest V7 #257 [erik mellgren ] Nostradamus and Gordon Sinclair ["Jim Salih" ] to combat crys of war and fake predictions, [Cyoakha ] Re: Phil, Response to Terror ["TB" ] Re: Phil, Response to Terror ["Jeffrey C. Burka" ] FW: Phil, Response to Terror [Phil Hudson ] Re: FW: Phil, Response to Terror [Birdie ] response to terrot [Juliet Cooke ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:27:34 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Fw: Canadian editorial on America On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 08:33:48PM -0700, Angel's Shadow wrote: > FW: Canadian editorial on AmericaI received this from a friend and thought > some people might like to read it... A recording of this was a radio hit (and I think a hit single) in the early 70s. > "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the > Americans as the most generous and possibly the least > appreciated people on all the earth. - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 11:34:17 +0200 (CEST) From: Yngve Hauge Subject: Re: Hello from W. Pennsylvania On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, meredith wrote: > Rachael's note reminds me, I'm just wondering if anyone has heard from the > following NY-based ecto musicians: > > Holly Figueroa She did send out a message on her mailinglist not long after the horror happened. So she is okey. Just wanted to mention this as noone else has already. Yngve **** Fight for the right to speak against what's wrong **** ** Everything you do - good or bad - will get back to you * *********** So beware !! ********************************** ************* Blessed be !!! ***************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:23:48 +0400 From: Michael Bravo Subject: Re: your friend Hello, thanks to everyone who volunteered to help me find my friend in NY. I have now indeed found a record on http://wtc.ny.com/ indicating that she is fine, so I'll get in touch with her sooner or later. Thanks ever so much, I really appreciate it. I wish everyone on the list to find their friends and dear ones unscathed and safe. - -- /\/\ike ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:20:41 -0400 (EDT) From: "Donald G. Keller" Subject: NYC Disaster How the luckier New Yorkers live: Tuesday morning I didn't get a call for temp work, so I was going around doing errands (laundry, etc.) and began hearing snippets on the radio about something going on at the WTC. (I never watch the news.) When I got home I turned on the TV and was watching the live shot when the second tower collapsed. An unbelievable and stunning sight. I figured, correctly, that I wasn't going to get any work for the forseeable future, so I've been cooped up in my apartment watching the news for two days. (Curiously, I've only been able to get CBS, Channel 2, where I am all this time up through Channel 13, except for intermittent--and worse than usual quality--reception on Channel 11. And Channel 2 was off for a little while on Wednesday.) Wednesday I went outside briefly, and the air was definitely hazy, with a bit of a burn smell. (I've been able to see smoke off in the distance looking south on Avenue A since the disaster.) I didn't stay out long, just went from my 12th Street apartment up to 15th street to my bank machine (figuring if I didn't have to go uptown to pick up my check I'd wait another day) and passing the police barriers preventing vehicular traffic south of 14th Street. In fact, when I returned I had to show my ID with address to a terse but polite policeman before I was allowed south of 14th Street again. My agency called yesterday afternoon to check if I were available for work, but I still didn't get a call (nor have I this morning). I woke up in the middle of the night (surprisingly, I've been sleeping OK) to a bit of a burn smell (all my windows are shut, but not sealed), but by this morning that's gone. (The wind has been shifting around.) I'm going to attempt a semblance of a normal day today. Don Keller ------------------------------ Date: 13 Sep 2001 09:27:25 -0400 From: Dan Riley Subject: Re: New York Phil Hudson writes: > I came across this passage, apparently written by Nostradamus in the 15th > Century: > > "In the year of the new century and nine months, > From the sky will come a great King of Terror... > The sky will burn. > Fire approaches the great new city... > In the city of York there will be a great collapse, > 2 twin brothers torn apart by chaos > while the fortress falls the great leader will succumb > the third big war will begin when the big city is burning" > * NOSTRADAMUS 1654 ^^^^ And the most remarkable part--he wrote it almost 100 years after he died! Wow! (is there a sarcastic emoticon?) This has been making the rounds, with some embellishment in transmission--this version is a *lot* more specific than the previous versions I've seen, which ought to be a warning flag by itself. Google searches on a few phrases finds no matches other than http://www.ed.brocku.ca/~nmarshal/nostradamus.htm which apparently was written as an example debunking Nostradamus--so Neil Marshall "predicted" this tragedy, and has now had his point proved quite effectively (an irony I suspect is lost on the people circulating this). > Nostradamus also predicted the two wars of the 20th century. For some value of "predicted". - -- Dan Riley dsr@mail.lns.cornell.edu Wilson Lab, Cornell University "A new life awaits you in the off-world colonies" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:48:44 -0400 From: erik mellgren Subject: Re: ecto-digest V7 #257 At 9/12/01 11:35 PM -0400, you wrote: >"In the year of the new century and nine months, > From the sky will come a great King of Terror... >The sky will burn. >Fire approaches the great new city... >In the city of York there will be a great collapse, >2 twin brothers torn apart by chaos >while the fortress falls the great leader will succumb >the third big war will begin when the big city is burning" >* NOSTRADAMUS 1654 I received an email with a similar quote. I was skeptical of it and then received a follow-up email with the following: I have no doubt that some will seriously claim that the 16th-century prophet Nostradamus predicted the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks in his writings  such claims follow virtually every modern disaster  but one quatrain already being circulated under Nostradamus' name is demonstrably bogus. Example: "In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb", The third big war will begin when the big city is burning" - Nostradamus 1654 Unfortunately, Nostradamus died in 1566, so it's rather unlikely he wrote this passage in 1654. It's not to be found in his published oeuvre. It's a hoax. The verse apparently originated on a Web page entitled "A Critical Analysis of Nostradamus," written several years ago by a student named Neil Marshall. Marshall made up the quatrain to demonstrate  quite ironically, in light of how it is now being misused  that the writings of Nostradamus are so cryptic that they can be interpreted to mean almost anything. Source: http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/weekly/aa091101b.htm. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 23:04:32 -0500 From: "Jim Salih" Subject: Nostradamus and Gordon Sinclair Alas,things on the WEB can take on a life and importance all their own,often undeserved.It always pays to take a deep breath and...... check,verify,source and recheck ,especially during times like these. _____________________________________________________________________________ _____ Nostrdamus Prediction http://www.snopes2.com/inboxer/hoaxes/predict.htm Gordon Sinclair "Let's Be Personal" spot June 5 1973 http://www.snopes2.com/quotes/sinclair.htm _____________________________________________________________________________ __- Both of these pages are experiencing heavy traffic, so it might take several tries to get to them. Special thanks and credit go to Patrick Douglas Crispen.... http://www.TOURBUS.com and his latest newsletter...TOURBUS Volume 7, Number 16 -- 13 Sep 2001 for these links. Best to all, JIM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:19:56 -0700 From: Cyoakha Subject: to combat crys of war and fake predictions, safe and sad, I send my love to all my newest friends back in the distruction. thank you for having me, thank you for worrying about me. I feel blessed. In my own fear of "oh god I hope we don't end up at war" someone sent me this, just as I was reading the fake predictions on ecto ...perhaps it will make someone out there feel more peaceful. all my love, cyoakha grace >>From: iclt >>Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:04:38 -0700 >>To: minnie@tibetjustice.org >>Subject: Dalai Lama's letter to President Bush >> >>Dear Members and Friends, >> >>Many have asked whether His Holiness the Dalai Lama has issued a statement >>regarding the violence in New York and Washington yesterday. What follows >>is a letter from His Holiness to President Bush. We send our sincerest >>condolences to the families and friends of the victims of yesterday's >>tragic events. You are in our thoughts and prayers. >> >>In peace, >>Minnie Cancellaro >>Tibet Justice Center (formerly Int'l Committee of Lawyers for Tibet) >> >>September 12, 2001 >> >>Your Excellency, >> >>I am deeply shocked by the terrorist attacks that took place involving four >>apparently hijacked aircrafts and the immense devastation these caused. It >>is a terrible tragedy that so many innocent lives have been lost and it >>seems unbelievable that anyone would choose to target the Wolrd Trade >>Centre in New York and the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. We are deeply >>saddened. On behalf of the Tibetan people I would like to convey our >>deepest condolence and solidarity with the American people during this >>painful time. Our prayers go out to the many who have lost their lives, >>those who have been injured and the many more who have been traumatized by >>this senseless act of violence. I am attending a special prayer for the >>United States and its people at our main temple today. >> >>I am confident that the United States as a great and powerful nation will >>be able to overcome this present tragedy. The American people have shown >>their resilience, courage and determination when faced with such difficult >>and sad situations. >> >>It may seem presumptous on my part, but I personally believe we need to >>think seriously whether a violent reaction is the right thing to do and in >>the greater interest of the nation and the people in the long run. I >>believe violence will only increase the cycle of violence. But how do we >>deal with hatred and anger which are often the root causes of such >>senseless violence? This is a very difficult question, especially when it >>concerns a nation and we have certain fixed conceptions of how to deal with >>such attacks. I am sure you will make the right decision. >> >>With my prayers and good wishes, >> >>Yours sincerely, >> >>The Dalai Lama >> >> >> >>His Excellency Mr. George W. Bush >>The President >>The white House >>Washington, DC 20500 >>USA >> >>Minnie Cancellaro >>Executive Director >> >>Tibet Justice Center >>formerly International Committee of Lawyers for Tibet >>2288 Fulton Street, Suite 312 >>Berkeley, CA 94704 >> >>tel. (510) 486-0588 >>fax. (510) 548-3785 >>e: iclt@igc.org >>w: www.tibeticlt.org >> >>"In our struggle for freedom, >>truth is the only weapon we possess." >>His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama > > O'Manion Music PO Box 198 Mill Valley, CA 94941 lanblind@teleport.com http://www.landoftheblind.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:18:10 -0500 From: Chris Snyder Subject: Re: NY musicians' whereabouts Meth asked: >Rachael's note reminds me, I'm just wondering if anyone has heard from the >following NY-based ecto musicians: > >Edie Carey >Trina Hamlin >Holly Figueroa >Amy Fairchild >Mila Drumke >Anne Heaton (was supposed to do a show in town last night) >Susan McKeown (she's on tour in CA this week I think (hope) but it can't >hurt to check) >Heather Eatman >Brenda Kahn >Ina May Wool >Katell Keineg (was supposed to do a show at the Mercury Lounge tonight, not >sure when she was going to be getting into town?) I got word from Edie that she and the rest of the Live From New York folks(Sam Shaber, Teddy Goldstein, Anne Heaton, Andrew Kerr) are physically fine, but mentally shaken. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:39:08 EDT From: Jessweiser24@aol.com Subject: Re: NY musicians' whereabouts Holly Figueria is safe and at her home in Seattle as well. Jessica www.jessicaweiser.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:33:17 -0700 From: Phil Hudson Subject: FW: Phil, Response to Terror Sorry to be so totally off-thread, but I got this unsolicited crap from some little warmonger at FreeLotto ( whose outrage over the tragedy of the WTC was not quite so great that he forgot to include his postscript encouraging people to play his Freelotto game) The unabridged text is below He now wants us to ask our alleged President Bush to "Rain down the fires of Hell" on Afghanistan. (That is presumably, if Bush is not too busy hiding at the Strategic Air Command's undergound bunker in Nebraska) To me this is a really horrific example of some little corporate despot using his company's resources to wrap hmself in a flag and promote his own ill-thought and jingoistic agenda. Sorry for the angry rant, but I'm pissed! Having seen the devastation and carnage wrought so recently upon so many innocent people, can there be ANYONE of conscience around who thinks it morally acceptable for the US to now go and bomb some of 'their' innocent people in blind retaliation? Remembering, of course, that we still don't really know who 'they' are) I'm sure some others on this list will share similar feelings to mine. If you do, please consider writing to this person and let him know your thoughts. Oh, and by the way, while the Lotto website gives out countless thousands of dollars per day to winners, Mr. Aronin proudly trumpets his company's donation of $5,000 to the Red Cross. Next outburst at 6pm Phil - -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Aronin [mailto:winners@freelotto.com] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 1:34 AM To: phil@tiaranetworks.com Subject: Phil, Response to Terror New York, NY - Wednesday, September 12, 2001 Dear Phil, Yesterday the unthinkable happened! As shock turns to pain, and dismay to strength, and our fear turns to courage, I felt compelled to write to each member of the FreeLotto family. First off, thank you to each of the thousands who wrote to us; concerned about our safety and sharing the pain all civlized people are feeling today. The staff of FreeLotto was indeed fortunate, as one of the hijacked jets passed directly over our office building seconds before hitting it's target. Fortunately, our families were also unharmed - physically at least. All New Yorkers, and indeed all people of the world lost life yesterday. Emotionally, we are all still in a state of shock. The pain is not yet fully felt. Yet through the shock, big and small acts of heroism define who we are. Those incredibly brave rescue workers who are risking it all to save others, and the millions who waited in line to donate blood, are a model for us all. The Red Cross volunteers who are always there in times of tragedy are so uplifting. And yet, will we ever relinquish the vision of burning victims leaping hand in hand from 1000 feet in the air? Do we even know how to properly honor these tens of thousands of heroic martyrs and their families? How will we even begin to heal? My late father, Stan Aronin was the Superintendent Engineer in charge of the construction of the foundation of those glorious New York landmarks. Those towers were his engineering legacy. Now, they too are gone. I feel a special pain because of that. It took five years and thousands of craftsmen to build that Eighth Wonder of the World - and only seconds for these evil criminals to destroy it. After Pearl Harbor, Franklin Roosevelt said, "We have nothing to fear, but fear itself." This applies to these acts of terrorism as well. We must demonstrate that we are not afraid of a few inhuman cowards hiding in the mountains in Afghanistan. We must stand as one in full support of our President. Indeed, the civilized world must stand as one against this most common of enemies. President Bush must make his Peace with the Creator, and then rain the fires of Hell on those who perpetrated this most heinous crime against humanity. This is not a religious issue. Christians, Muslims, Jews, members of every faith and citizens of every nation must stand together, or they will fall alone! AS A SYMBOL OF SOLIDARITY I ASK THAT YOU WEAR A RED ARM BAND. LET THE WHOLE WORLD KNOW THAT YOU WILL NOT BE TERRORIZED. ASK ALL OF YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY TO DO THE SAME. WE WILL NOT LET A FEW COWARDS STEAL OUR FREEDOM. Our Leaders, and our Armed Forces will deliver painful retribution on these cowards. We must also do our part by showing solidarity and restoring normalcy to our lives. Finally, FreeLotto is donating $5000.00 to the New York Chapter of the American Red Cross, World Trade Center Disaster Fund. Please join us and your 21,000,000 fellow FreeLotto members to help the Red Cross help the victims and their families. The url to make a donation is: http://www.freelotto.com/offer.asp?offer=22487&id=20165391 Or, to donate by mail: The American Red Cross - Greater New York World Trade Center Disaster Fund P.O. Box 3755, Church Street Station New York, NY 10008 United States Or, to donate by telephone: Please call 1-877-Red-Cross (1-877-733-2767), ask for extension 2460 To let President Bush know that you support his leadership in this crisis, send him an email at: president@whitehouse.gov You remain in my thoughts and prayers during this time of National mourning. God Bless you. Fond Regards, Kevin J. Aronin ps. We continue to conduct the daily FreeLotto drawings. We will resume sending your results via email tomorrow. To check the results of any of the previous days' drawings, simply click: http://www.freelotto.com/Results.asp If you need to unsubscribe from from the FreeLotto emails, you can click this link: http://www.freelotto.com/util/unsub.asp?FID=bfb020165391 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:26:40 -0500 From: "TB" Subject: Re: Phil, Response to Terror I'm going to point out that while I agree that using his companies resources to preach his own message was inappropriate, the actual UNABRIDGED text is as follows: > President Bush must make his Peace with the Creator, and then rain the > fires of Hell on those who perpetrated this most heinous crime against > humanity. This is not a religious issue. Christians, Muslims, Jews, > members of every faith and citizens of every nation must stand > together, or they will fall alone! In this time of tragedy I also don't think that it's very positive to make snide remarks about President Bush "hiding in the Strategic Air Command's underground bunker". My biggest concern now actually is, beyond find out who did these horrible acts, is that we do our best to prevent the retaliation against innocent Muslims within our country. Tracy, normally a lurker - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Hudson" To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 2:33 PM Subject: FW: Phil, Response to Terror > Sorry to be so totally off-thread, but I got this unsolicited crap from some > little warmonger at FreeLotto ( whose outrage over the tragedy of the WTC > was not quite so great that he forgot to include his postscript encouraging > people to play his Freelotto game) The unabridged text is below > > He now wants us to ask our alleged President Bush to "Rain down the fires of > Hell" on Afghanistan. > (That is presumably, if Bush is not too busy hiding at the Strategic Air > Command's undergound bunker in Nebraska) > > To me this is a really horrific example of some little corporate despot > using his company's resources to wrap hmself in a flag and promote his own > ill-thought and jingoistic agenda. > > Sorry for the angry rant, but I'm pissed! > > Having seen the devastation and carnage wrought so recently upon so many > innocent people, can there be ANYONE of conscience around who thinks it > morally acceptable for the US to now go and bomb some of 'their' innocent > people in blind retaliation? > Remembering, of course, that we still don't really know who 'they' are) > > I'm sure some others on this list will share similar feelings to mine. > > If you do, please consider writing to this person and let him know your > thoughts. > > Oh, and by the way, while the Lotto website gives out countless thousands of > dollars per day to winners, Mr. Aronin proudly trumpets his company's > donation of $5,000 to the Red Cross. > > > Next outburst at 6pm > > Phil > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kevin Aronin [mailto:winners@freelotto.com] > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 1:34 AM > To: phil@tiaranetworks.com > Subject: Phil, Response to Terror > > > New York, NY - Wednesday, September 12, 2001 > > Dear Phil, > > Yesterday the unthinkable happened! As shock turns to pain, and dismay > to strength, and our fear turns to courage, I felt compelled to write > to each member of the FreeLotto family. First off, thank you to each > of the thousands who wrote to us; concerned about our safety and > sharing the pain all civlized people are feeling today. The staff of > FreeLotto was indeed fortunate, as one of the hijacked jets passed > directly over our office building seconds before hitting it's target. > Fortunately, our families were also unharmed - physically at least. > All New Yorkers, and indeed all people of the world lost life yesterday. > > Emotionally, we are all still in a state of shock. The pain is not yet > fully felt. Yet through the shock, big and small acts of heroism > define who we are. Those incredibly brave rescue workers who are > risking it all to save others, and the millions who waited in line to > donate blood, are a model for us all. The Red Cross volunteers who are > always there in times of tragedy are so uplifting. > > And yet, will we ever relinquish the vision of burning victims leaping > hand in hand from 1000 feet in the air? Do we even know how to > properly honor these tens of thousands of heroic martyrs and their > families? How will we even begin to heal? > > My late father, Stan Aronin was the Superintendent Engineer in charge > of the construction of the foundation of those glorious New York > landmarks. Those towers were his engineering legacy. Now, they too > are gone. I feel a special pain because of that. It took five years > and thousands of craftsmen to build that Eighth Wonder of the World - > and only seconds for these evil criminals to destroy it. > > After Pearl Harbor, Franklin Roosevelt said, "We have nothing to fear, > but fear itself." This applies to these acts of terrorism as well. We > must demonstrate that we are not afraid of a few inhuman cowards hiding > in the mountains in Afghanistan. We must stand as one in full support > of our President. Indeed, the civilized world must stand as one > against this most common of enemies. > > President Bush must make his Peace with the Creator, and then rain the > fires of Hell on those who perpetrated this most heinous crime against > humanity. This is not a religious issue. Christians, Muslims, Jews, > members of every faith and citizens of every nation must stand > together, or they will fall alone! > > AS A SYMBOL OF SOLIDARITY I ASK THAT YOU WEAR A RED ARM BAND. LET THE > WHOLE WORLD KNOW THAT YOU WILL NOT BE TERRORIZED. ASK ALL OF YOUR > FRIENDS AND FAMILY TO DO THE SAME. WE WILL NOT LET A FEW COWARDS STEAL > OUR FREEDOM. > > Our Leaders, and our Armed Forces will deliver painful retribution on > these cowards. We must also do our part by showing solidarity and > restoring normalcy to our lives. Finally, FreeLotto is donating > $5000.00 to the New York Chapter of the American Red Cross, World Trade > Center Disaster Fund. Please join us and your 21,000,000 fellow > FreeLotto members to help the Red Cross help the victims and their > families. The url to make a donation is: > > http://www.freelotto.com/offer.asp?offer=22487&id=20165391 > > Or, to donate by mail: > > The American Red Cross - Greater New York > World Trade Center Disaster Fund > P.O. Box 3755, Church Street Station > New York, NY > 10008 > United States > > Or, to donate by telephone: > > Please call 1-877-Red-Cross (1-877-733-2767), ask for extension 2460 > > > To let President Bush know that you support his leadership in this > crisis, send him an email at: > > president@whitehouse.gov > > > You remain in my thoughts and prayers during this time of National > mourning. God Bless you. > > Fond Regards, > Kevin J. Aronin > > > ps. We continue to conduct the daily FreeLotto drawings. We will > resume sending your results via email tomorrow. To check the results > of any of the previous days' drawings, simply click: > http://www.freelotto.com/Results.asp > > > > > > > > > If you need to unsubscribe from from the FreeLotto emails, you can > click this link: > http://www.freelotto.com/util/unsub.asp?FID=bfb020165391 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:40:29 -0400 From: "Jeffrey C. Burka" Subject: Re: Phil, Response to Terror tracy sez: > the actual UNABRIDGED text is as follows: >>President Bush must make his Peace with the Creator, and then rain the >>fires of Hell on those who perpetrated this most heinous crime against >>humanity. This is not a religious issue. Christians, Muslims, Jews, >>members of every faith and citizens of every nation must stand >>together, or they will fall alone And? As far as I can tell, Phil's point was about the rush toward violent retaliation -- a concept with which I also have a difficult time. I keep hearing about the anger everyone is purported to feel. Well I don't feel it -- I feel a great sorrow and empathy with those who have perished and those they have left behind. I'm not exactly a pacifist, but the idea of answering this violence with more is upsetting. And the idea that President Bush could be pushed into it out of a sense of obligation or urgerncy driven by the media and the public is unsettling. > In this time of tragedy I also don't think that it's very positive to > make snide remarks about President Bush "hiding in the Strategic Air > > Command's underground bunker". Okay, here I agree with you -- chances are that Bush had no say in the matter, that it was the secret service who wouldn't let him come back to Washington. I'm hardly a Bush apologist either, but some accusations seem a wee bit unfair... jeff ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:48:35 -0700 From: Phil Hudson Subject: FW: Phil, Response to Terror I'm quite obviously going off a lot here on this topic; I apologize in advance and I promise I will shut up after the following tirade. Jeff and Tracy's comments are quite right concerning my remarks about Bush going into hiding, they may be perceived as 'a wee bit unfair' ( thanks Jeff, for your gentle verbal restraint :) but hey, let's remember that he's *supposed* to be the friggin' "Leader of the Free World". This man is the commander in chief of the greatest military force on the planet and he is allowing his bodyguards to order him into hiding out until the danger is over? He's supposed to be in charge of THEM, remember? What does it say about him and his qualities of bravery and leadership? Just read some of the WWII history books about prominent and powerful people who placed themselves in positions of enormous danger and risk, who did not have to, but chose to, out of a sense of duty or responsibility. To the best of my knowledge Harry Truman never went underground and hid from *anything*. Winston Churchill and, I believe, most of the Royal Family stayed in London during some of the worst German bombing blitzes of WWII. In short, they stood by their people and faced the danger with them. They did not run away. By comparison George Bush went into hiding two miles below the surface of the Earth, in Nebraska, at the very center of the US: He could not have made himself any less at risk had he climbed aboard the space shuttle and stayed in orbit for the duration. The after-the-fact spin that his PR crew tried to put on it could have been bettered by a high school poli-sci major. I heard someone on the radio say " I never thought I'd hear myself say this, but Bush's actions even made Rudi Giuliani look good!" The fact that I think Bush Jr is a belligerent, pusillanimous little chimp whose Daddy gave him the White House quite obviously has a lot to do with the views I have expressed. Your mileage may differ. I also don't feel very *positive* about a President who is about to use these tragic events as an excuse to ramp up the existing military interventionist machinery ( $20 billion worth, no less!) and start bombing *more* innocent humans simply to support the likes of Martin Marietta and Lockheed. let's face it revenge and justice have nothing to do with this at the Cabinet level; it's all special interest and cold cash, and the view from 30,000 feet does not include human beings. American weapons manufacturers are celebrating with more gusto than the Palestinians right now. They're getting just what they wanted for Christmas. But if you live in Afghanistan or Iraq, or any other country that won't drink Uncle Sam's Kool Aid, that's won't be Santa you'll be hearing coming down your chimney this year..... Apologies to all, this is after all, Ecto and this is some of the least musically-related, and most depressing prose I've ever written. Phil (Who doesn't normally make public pronouncements about politics or philosophy. I just find the hypocrisy of what is happening extremely sickening and worrisome) Original from Tracy (Snip) ...In this time of tragedy I also don't think that it's very positive to make snide remarks about President Bush "hiding in the Strategic Air Command's underground bunker".... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:03:29 -0700 From: Birdie Subject: Re: FW: Phil, Response to Terror Hi It is quite clear that Bush is a direct target and that his family's past and present business is clearly implicated in the causes of all of this....and, yes,they happen to be in the Oil business. You have to remember that when his father was the president that we had a recession, we had unemployment, and ...we went to war in the middle east. If I am proven to be wrong, forgive me, but this looks like it is payback for what Daddy did to Iraq and Bin Laden was used to help make it happen. For the peace loving souls, I suggest we go to war for alternative energies (and therefore world powers). If anyone is going to play God, let it be the sun.......rather than the black decay of dead dinosaurs. With love Birdie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:12:46 -0400 From: Juliet Cooke Subject: response to terrot Here's an interesting and (to me) persuasive perspective. This seemed as good a time to delurk as any. Juliet Subject : Living with Terror I, the Sermon Date : Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:31:44 -0700 Friends, I know allot of SPAM is going around about the tragedy but I feel compelled to forward this on. This is a letter that a friend of mine wrote. He is from my home town of Menlo Park and went to Menlo Atherton High School and latter UC Berkeley where he studied world history. After teaching for a short period he planed an around the world trip to write a book about his family history. He met a woman in Sri Lanka and fell in love. He married, and has lived in Sri Lanka writing for the Associated Press covering the Sri Lankan civil war. He is attending Columbia School of Journalism this spring. If you wish to forward this letter on make sure you include his contact information so her can respond to any comments. - -Jeff Wiley _____________________________________________ Dear Friends and Loved Ones, This was intended to be a wrap up of views and experiences during --- and a discussion of my disappointment with --- the World Conference Against Racism in Durban, South Africa. I went to Durban with the International Centre for Ethnic Studies and also reported on the conference for the Voice of America. I returned to Sri Lanka just hours before the attacks in New York and Washington. I begin this message in Sri Lanka's nightly blackout, three hour cuts due to a drought that starves the island's hydropower. I am sweating on the keys a little; the mosquitos annoy me; the flame of the candle feels hot on one cheek. And I am feeling worse than I've felt in years. Like so many of you, I cannot describe the sensation of watching the second 767 strike the World Trade Center, of seeing a structure that seemed as permanent as the earth itself collapse into oblivion. The feeling that floats to the top must be despair. Living myself in a world of terror and reprisal (though we are far from the radar screens of the world), I also feel despair at the surge of bloodlust on the networks and the calls for vengeance from people, politicians, and the media. Recent attacks on the US have been called evil acts of madmen. Oklahoma City, the Embassies in Africa, the USS Cole, all seen as acts of irrational evil. Evil they are. Nothing else can describe such brutal massacres, such wanton destruction. They are not, however, acts of madmen. None of them. The danger of such rhetoric should not be underestimated. In my few years in Sri Lanka, I have seen dozens of brutal terrorist attacks, the most shocking and brazen the recent destruction of 12 civilian and military aircraft on the tarmac at the international airport. I have walked among the dead and reported the carnage. The evil of terrorism touches countries worldwide. War and insurgency have killed over 140000 Sri Lankans in the last 18 years and left a million displaced. The population of the island is only 18 million. Most terrorist attacks here strike the cities and kill innocent civilians. The government often retaliates with military operations and air strikes. In this setting, the rebels are the "terrorists" and government retaliation is justified and celebrated by much of the general public in government held areas. Such attacks are supported by the international community as the defence of a sovereign nation in a state of war. But reprisals can never stop the terrorist attacks. Every time a military operation claims an innocent son or daughter or parent or sibling, another terrorist --- or freedom fighter --- is born. The cycle is perpetual. Security can only be flawed; retaliation, however effective, can only contribute to more violence. Sri Lanka is a gauntlet of military and police checkpoints. Vehicles are inspected going into shopping malls. You have to reach the airport 3 hours in advance and pass through multiple checks and searches, multiple x-rays, and at least one hand search of all baggage. The bombings continue. The airport remained vulnerable. Security is omnipresent and it is naturally discriminatory, often profiling people of the same ethnic community as the rebels. Checkpoints and searches do not make you feel safe. Because the underlying causes of the violence are not fully addressed, the attacks continue. Undoubtedly, the attacks on New York and Washington can be attributed to sloppy security at many airports and twin failures by American intelligence and by American defence forces. Security must be tightened and the citizens will have to accept the restrictions for their own safety. But in America, too, increased security cannot stop terror attacks. A single individual willing to die for a cause is virtually unstoppable. The fabric that holds diverse societies together is an uncompromising defence of individual rights and civil liberties. Security arrangements can prove dangerous if they target or harm specific segments of a population, thus driving people to extremism. Retaliation, unless surgically precise, will always create a mushroom affect---new men and women willing to die if their loved ones are slaughtered. We see it now in America: Thousands would die to exact vengeance on those responsible for Tuesday's attacks. But we are doomed to an ongoing cycle of terror unless the struggle Americans are willing to die for is one for justice --- not revenge. Fighting evil can only succeed if the approach to it is sophisticated and profound. It must be rooted in the most difficult strictures of the scriptures of the major religions and the deepest springs of the human heart. It must be rooted in forgiveness. Force must be tempered by understanding; punitive action complemented by positive action. Around the roots of many terrorist organizations there often lies a thick layer of legitimate grievances from which violence drew its nutrients. This is true of the IRA, the LTTE in Sri Lanka, the PLO, the Kosovar Liberation Army, and many others. South Africa's ANC spent generations as a "terrorist" organization. Many vicious forces in world were equipped by major powers, including the United States (think of the Taliban itself and the Contras). In Hollywood, attacks like those in New York and Washington are the designs of madmen bent on wealth and/or power. They are thwarted by mythic heros in the form of Harrison Ford or Arnold Schwarzenagger. The movie stars didn't appear on Tuesday to save the day. Similarly, there were no madmen. Acts of war like these are rooted in strategy; the evil of real life terrorism is based on concrete beliefs and serious efforts to advance those beliefs, often through evil actions. To fight these forces --- who also believe they are fighting for justice - --- countries must answer questions who and how. They must also look beyond to questions of why. The U.S. needs to ask and seriously try to answer these difficult questions: Why do these people hate us enough to do such horrible things? What will the cost of our retaliation be and how can it be just and accurate? The suspects in these cases are not after mere wealth and power. While retribution is necessary, the cost of that retribution must be estimated. Nations can easily slip into an endless spiral of carnage like that engulfing Israel and Palestine, like Sri Lanka, like so many devastated places on earth. I despair for the victims in New York and Washington and Pennsylvania, for their families, and I dread learning of the friends I too must have lost yesterday. I send my wishes to the rescue workers and hope the preservation of life remains on the top of everyone's mind. I despair for a world in which understanding and empathy are victims of political and economic convenience and for leaders around the world who do not --- perhaps cannot --- realize the possible results of their actions. I just returned from an international forum from which the US withdrew. America cannot remain separate from the global community; it must realize that in order to have global support---against terrorism and for many other global concerns---it must at least participate in global processes. It must openly defend its beliefs and interests and attempt to build consensus for its positions. It's positions must be debated inside and outside of the country. It must empathize and attempt to understand the concerns and beliefs of other states and other groups of people. The withdrawal from Kyoto, plans for missile defence, refusing to sign biological weapons and land mine agreements, rejecting an international criminal court, all of these cannot be seen as disconnected from the future of US security. Though I have strong opinions on all of these, I am not passing judgement on American positions here. I am saying that such decisions cannot be taken as if the US exists in a disconnected world. The United States remains the greatest hope for the concept of mutual accommodation and tolerance. With many hiccups, we generally live together in tolerance and even celebration of diversity. We allow all people the pursuit of happiness. As the United States chooses a path after Tuesday's tragic loss, may the leaders find the wisdom to seek out justice, not vengeance, and to take any retaliatory action with care. May Americans remember to keep one hand ready for positive action if the other is striking destruction. May we confront enemies with strength and with kindness and avoid today's global patterns in which one wrong makes a wrong makes a wrong makes a wrong. . . May we realize the need to re-engage the world. The stakes cannot be higher. Vikram Singh Colombo, Sri Lanka, September 12, 2001 Please feel free to distribute this opinion in any means you see fit with my name and contact information. Lots of love. 21 Glen Aber Place Colombo 04 Sri Lanka +94 1 584955 (home) +94 1 685085 (office) +94 77 382771 (mobile) vikramsingh73@yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ "Peace between countries must rest on the solid foundation of love between individuals." - -- Juliet Cooke ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V7 #259 **************************