From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V6 #340 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Monday, November 13 2000 Volume 06 : Number 340 Today's Subjects: ----------------- W for whiny? [kerrywhite@webtv.net (kerry white)] Today's your birthday, friend... [Mike Matthews ] Tom McRae ["Adam K." ] Election day/week -- and Phil Ochs ["Adam K." ] Re: Election day/week -- and Phil Ochs [Joseph Zitt ] Re: W for whiny? c for common sense [FAMarcus@aol.com] Re: some guy [WretchAwry ] Re: W for whiny? c for common sense ["Chad Lundgren" ] Re: election [Paul Blair ] Re: mike and leo [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] Re: mike and leo [Neile Graham ] Re: vampire songs ["Angel's Shadow" ] Re: Are there *any* Republicans/conservatives on this list??? ["Michael P] Re: election ["Angel's Shadow" ] Re: mike and leo ["Angel's Shadow" ] Re: election [Joseph Zitt ] Re: jorane / Eleni Mandell [Michael Curry ] Re: election [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] Neile's September Discs [Neile Graham ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 01:05:13 -0600 (CST) From: kerrywhite@webtv.net (kerry white) Subject: W for whiny? Hi, Florida has a >state law< that demands a recount. Big questions are asked about missing ballot boxes and confusing ballots and Geo W bush is threatening legal action to stop it all and wants them to crown him President. I hope in this next legally mandated week (til the 17th.) he keeps whining and finally embarrasses the people who voted for him..... Gee! can't tell who I voted for canya? All this IMHO. bye, KrW I'm Peter Pan! I'm perpetually young!! OW!! What's wrong with my back? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 03:00:05 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Matthews Subject: Today's your birthday, friend... i*i*i*i*i*i i*i*i*i*i*i *************** *****HAPPY********* **************BIRTHDAY********* *************************************************** *************************************************************************** ******************* Michael Doyle (maeldun@i-2000.com) ******************** *************************************************************************** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Michael Doyle Wed November 12 1969 Scorpio Marla Tiara Tue November 13 1973 Scorpio Neil K. Thu November 14 1968 Grocible Dave Cook Mon November 15 1971 Scorpio Jeff Pearce November 16 Orpheus Naama Avramzon Mon November 18 1974 Scorpio Jeff Smith Mon November 19 1962 Crash Kevin Bartlett Fri November 21 1952 Scorpio Claudia Spix Wed November 23 1960 Schuetze Anja Baldo Tue November 23 1965 Garbanzo Tommy Persson Wed November 25 1964 Sagittarius Pat Tessitore November 26 Sagittarius Valerie Kraemer November 26 Sagittarius Justin Bur Fri November 27 1964 Sagittarius Sue Trowbridge Sun November 27 1966 Skytten Ward Kadel Tue November 29 1977 Sagittarius Jesse Hernandez Liwag Wed November 29 1972 Water Rat Mirko Bulaja Sat November 30 1974 Block Juha Sorva Thu December 02 1976 Sagittarius Chip Lueck Thu December 05 1968 Sagittarius Michele Wellck December 08 Sagittarius Jeremy J. Corry Fri December 11 1970 Sagittarius - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 08:53:25 -0000 From: "Adam K." Subject: Tom McRae Ever buy an album and, halfway through, realise it's utterly fantastic and can't wait to get back to it, or play a particular song again? I have to admit, this hasn't happened to me for a while, but it's happening now . The album in question is the debut, eponymous album by Tom McRae. A UK singer/songwriter praised by critics, he was trawled through all the usual lazy comparisons but steers clear of Nick Drake's weary, dreary sighing or Jeff Buckley's histrionics. His voice has a clear, urgent, aching edge to it, arrangements deceptively sparse, sucking you right in. Maybe a cross between Ben Christophers and Michael Penn with a hint of David Gray might come close to describing him, but it would never do him justice. Buy this album. Now. np -- Tom McRae nr - House of Leaves. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 08:43:42 -0000 From: "Adam K." Subject: Election day/week -- and Phil Ochs Okay, I'm Anglo-American and I live 3000 miles away, but I'm still American enough to be able to vote, and have an interest in what's going on. I remember voting for Carter in against Reagan because I knew that, above all, Reagan had to be stopped. He wasn't. Neither has Bush Jr. I find the whole thing appallingly depressing, distressing even that it had to be this close. The fact that the whole thing comes down to Florida, where even the person who designed the ballot paper admits it was a mistake, and where the governor just happens to be Bush's brother, makes it even worse. So, (dragging it back a bit to music) yesterday, out and about and in need of retail therapy, I found that Phil Ochs' last albums have now been re-released on cd. So far, only his "Greatest Hits" has stayed around, presumably because the record company never realised the title was ironic and it was, in fact, all original material -- the last he was to record. The albums just re-released are "Pleasures of the Harbour" "Tape from California" and "Rehearsals for Retirement" (the latter backed with "Gunfight at Carnegie Hall", a bizarre live album previously only released in Canada). By then Ochs, once a folk/protest singer to rival Dylan (albeit with a Tom Lehrer-type since of humour) turned to more ambitious arrangements and complex lyrics, all the while trying to deal with his increasing disillusionment with America as it swang to the right and finally ended up in the lap of Nixon. "Rehearsals...", in particular, is his eulogy for himself as an American, his epitaph to the protest movement. For those of you who have yet to discover Phil Ochs --- now's as good a time as ever. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 03:36:26 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Election day/week -- and Phil Ochs On Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 08:43:42AM -0000, Adam K. wrote: > For those of you who have yet to discover Phil Ochs --- now's as good a time > as ever. Yup! His "Pleasures of the Harbor" is on my top must-have albums list. I haven't had a copy in years (past vinyl disasters *sigh*) but having found out that it's out on CD just after Tower closed for the night, I'll be dashing to the CD store to grab one when I wake up. I remember the night he died: I was at a science fiction convention in NYC, and we were sitting in a hallway filksinging. Someone came over, somber-faced, gestured to be handed the guitar, said "I'd like to sing a song by the late Phil Ochs", watched as what he said registered on the people's faces, and launched into (IIRC) "Crucifixion". The next several hours were my introduction to his music, and to what that music meant to people. - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 03:38:28 -0600 From: "Chad Lundgren" Subject: Re: W for whiny? 'Lo there, Kerry wrote: > Hi, Florida has a >state law< that demands a recount. Big questions > are asked about missing ballot boxes and confusing ballots and Geo W > bush is threatening legal action to stop it all and wants them to crown > him President. I hope in this next legally mandated week (til the > 17th.) he keeps whining and finally embarrasses the people who voted for > him..... Gee! can't tell who I voted for canya? All this IMHO. bye, Also, take into account that the following is just my opinion as well. I think that the side you voted for, or support, does skew your viewpoint for whatever side you're on. I voted for Bush. When I look at the goings on down in Florida, I see the fact that the Democrats were the first to file an injunction to keep the Palm Beach County re-count from being certified. I also see that Gore wants to re-count and re-count until he gets one that he likes. I see that although finding out what the people who messed up their ballots in the first place might get a "more" accurate guage of the "voice of the people", why single out PBC as well as three other traditionally democratic supporting counties for hand recounts as opposed to the whole state? Why is it that because the election is so close, the throw away ballots are worth more than in past elections when the races weren't so close? In addition, why are the unheard voices of the Florida voters who failed to mark their ballot correctly mean any more than the thousands of votes across the nation that were thrown out? This was all started when irregularities popped up in a close Florida vote. If you're talking about voter intimidation or any allegations of bad political practices, the sad fact is this happens everywhere, including my state of Wisconsin and in St. Louis, MO. Every election has some forms of these dirty tricks. We all take it in stride as flaws in an imperfect process, but not this year. In 1996, a similar proportion of ballots were thrown out in Palm Beach. Nobody raised a stink then and nothing was done to improve the situation for the next election. By now, you've all seen the ballot for PBC. And while you could see that, possibly, voters might be confused by the ballot, the majority of you could easily follow the arrow and punch the right hole. All of these protestors that ask, "does my vote count?", are more than likely voters whose votes did count. And those who believe they "might" have voted for Pat Buchanon as opposed to Al Gore only seemed to notice and call attention to it after Bush was projected the winner in Florida. The longer we spend on this, the more re-counts we go through, the more opportunity there is for error and corruption and the further we get from what may be a true "voice of the people". I don't know what the people of Florida meant to do. I only know what the election results said they meant to do. And that is to give the delegates of the state to Bush. It was confirmed by re-count pending the counting of overseas ballots. But we will keep counting and counting until one of the counts says Gore wins and then it will be a true count, an accurate "will of the people". What Gore may fail to realize is that the "will of the people" may have been for Bush. In the end, if you hand re-count one or four counties, HAND RE-COUNT THEM ALL. That is the only way to fairly come to an accurate state total as opposed to Grade A accurate for PBC, Dade, and Broward etc. and Grade B accurate for the rest of the state. If they were doing a hand re-count of the entire state, I'd have a lot less beef about it. But if this falls Gore's way, and the opened can of worms extends to Wisconsin, Iowa, and Oregon as it may, please don't look on Bush with any less favor than you do on Gore. I, for one, just wish it were all over. And for those who'd like to do away with the electoral college, not on your life. It gives a stronger voice to middle american states that, although less populous, are every bit as valuable to the union. It's only fair. With that thinking, you might as well get rid of the Senate, which was designed for a similar purpose. Sorry for rambling. Don't smack me around too bad. I promise that future posts will be Ecto related and without political content. I just wanted to add my two cents in on the discussion. Chad aka Hiptones aka Morpheus ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 05:52:25 EST From: FAMarcus@aol.com Subject: Re: W for whiny? c for common sense In a message dated 11/12/00 4:47:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, hiptones@wi.rr.com writes: << Palm Beach County re-count from being certified. I also see that Gore wants to re-count and re-count until he gets one that he likes. >> or one that he trusts to be accurate. i mean i know i would be a little paranoid if my opponants brother just happens to run the state that is going to determine who is the next president. don't tell me you wouldn't feel the same in his position. fred while listening to euphoria................. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 05:00:29 -0600 From: WretchAwry Subject: Re: some guy At 08:53 AM 11/12/2000 +0000, Adam wrote: > he was trawled through all the usual lazy comparisons but > steers clear of Nick Drake's weary, dreary sighing > or Jeff Buckley's histrionics. Hint: It's *VERY* bad manners to tout a musician you like by putting down other musicians, *especially* musicians as revered as Nick Drake and Jeff Buckley. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 11:32:44 -0600 From: "Chad Lundgren" Subject: Re: W for whiny? c for common sense 'Lo all, Fred writes: > hiptones@wi.rr.com writes: > > << Palm Beach County re-count from being certified. I also see that Gore wants > to re-count and re-count until he gets one that he likes. >> > > or one that he trusts to be accurate. i mean i know i would be a little > paranoid if my opponants brother just happens to run the state that is going > to determine who is the next president. don't tell me you wouldn't feel the > same in his position. Wouldn't you just as likely be paranoid as the votes keep getting re-counted while Gore's point man on the scene is William Daley, the son of the man, Richard Daley, who turned election fraud into an art form. By my understanding, there's reason for apprehension on both sides here. Like I said, I wouldn't have as much problem with this if they called for hand re-counts for the whole state as opposed to just the four pre-dominantly democratic counties. Chad ------------------------------ Date: 12 Nov 2000 15:02:04 -0500 From: Dan Riley Subject: Re: W is for Winnie embedded in ice "Chad Lundgren" writes: > When I look at the goings on down in Florida, I see the fact that > the Democrats were the first to file an injunction to keep the Palm > Beach County re-count from being certified. Filed by voters confused by the ballot (though the Gore campaign has said they will support those suits--I wish they wouldn't). > Why is it that because the election is so close, the throw away > ballots are worth more than in past elections when the races weren't > so close? I like what the Florida Supreme Court said in the 1998 Beckstrom v. Volusia County Canvassing Board decision: "[I]f a court finds substantial noncompliance with statutory election procedures and also makes a factual determination that reasonable doubt exists as to whether a certified election expressed the will of the voters, then the court . . . is to void the contested election, even in the absence of fraud or intentional wrongdoing." Because the election is close, there is reasonable doubt whether the election expressed the will of the voters, and that is why more attention should be paid. But you're right that there are issues here that should have been getting attention long before this--maybe they will now. Maybe it's time to buy stock in voting machine manufacturers? > In 1996, a similar proportion of ballots were thrown out in Palm > Beach. The 14,872 figure that has been quoted for 1996 apparently includes undervotes as well as overvotes. The figures for this year are 19,120 overvotes and 10,582 undervotes, a total of 29,702 -- double the number in 1996. [1] > By now, you've all seen the ballot for PBC. And while you could see > that, possibly, voters might be confused by the ballot, the majority > of you could easily follow the arrow and punch the right hole. The ballot has serious usability problems--everyone I've checked that knows much about usability and user interface design agrees. One particularly insidious effect is that it is *much* more likely to be confusing when it is used to cast a ballot than when it is being reviewed. The reason is that you need the context of both sides of the ballot to disambiguate what the arrows mean. When you're reviewing the ballot in "how does this thing work" mode, you see the big picture and see that context. If you approach it in task mode, knowing what candidate you plan to vote for, you'll look for the name of your chosen candidate, and then from there look for how to vote for that candidate. At that point many people won't step back and and acquire the context that makes it clear which hole to punch--worse, the other side may even be covered by the voter's hand holding the stylus.[2] This wouldn't bother me so much if the ballot were equally confusing to all voters. What really concerns me is that the layout is much less likely to confuse a Bush voter than any other, since the first slot has almost none of the ambiguity of the others. A ballot that is significantly biased in favor of one candidate is a bad thing (regardless of the candidate). > All of these protestors that ask, "does my vote count?", are more > than likely voters whose votes did count. This could probably be resolved via usability studies (if they can find subjects that haven't seen the ballot...). My guess is that usability studies on a group with the same demographics as PBC would show significant confusion (I'm basing this mostly on years of experience observing how even highly intelligent people can be confused by user interfaces that appear obvious but violate user expectations--anybody who's spent much time doing tech support or manning a helpdesk has probably seen lots of examples of this). [this just in: a sample of the 19k overvotes were examined--most of them had Gore and Buchanan punched[4]] > And those who believe they "might" have voted for Pat Buchanon as > opposed to Al Gore only seemed to notice and call attention to it > after Bush was projected the winner in Florida. There were many complaints about the ballot before the polls even closed--enough that the county election supervisor issued a directive (which according to other reports, didn't reach many of the polling sites until after the polls closed): After numerous complaints were received on Tuesday morning, Ms. LePore issued this directive to the county's 106 precincts: "Attention all poll workers. Please remind all voters coming in that they are to vote only for one (1) presidential candidate and that they are to punch the hole next to the arrow next to the number next to the candidate they wish to vote for. Thank you!"[3] The press only started paying attention once the results were known, but that doesn't mean no one was complaining. > I don't know what the people of Florida meant to do. I only know what > the election results said they meant to do. And that is to give the > delegates of the state to Bush. It was confirmed by re-count pending > the counting of overseas ballots. But we will keep counting and > counting until one of the counts says Gore wins and then it will be a > true count, an accurate "will of the people". What Gore may fail to > realize is that the "will of the people" may have been for Bush. We're always told that "every vote counts". What I'd guess most of us are just learning now is that, when every vote really does count, we can't be sure that every vote is counted. From the changes in totals between the two mechanical recounts, it looks like the error rate of the mechanical counters is comparable to the margin of victory. From comments by election officials in other states, it is apparently well known but little publicized that vote counts can have uncomfortably high error rates--but most of the time it doesn't matter. This time it does. In this situation, how do we determine the "will of the people"? There seems to be two basic positions: vote counts are inherently imperfect--we'll never accurately capture the intent of each and every voter--so we might as well accept the first result we get as long as it is acceptably free of irregularities and fraud vs. we should do everything reasonably possible to make the count as accurate as possible I find the first position uncomfortable, largely I suspect due to my expectations of that finality Jim Baker keeps talking about. Perhaps election boards should quote experimental errors for the vote counts, so it is completely clear how (un)reliable the results are. On the second position, there is good reason to believe that a hand count could more accurately determine voter intent, due particularly to the limitations of the punch card system used in much of Florida. For this reason, I think it is premature to roll out the "keep counting and counting" argument before the first hand count has been completed. But more to the point, we do know the "will of the people" -- the will of the people is nearly evenly divided between two candidates. Yet our winner-take-all system guarantees that a majority of Florida voters will not be represented whatever the outcome is. Perhaps the candidates should divvy up all the contested states' Electors 50/50 (fat chance). Perhaps there are good reasons why so much of the civilized world uses some form of parliamentary proportional representation. As is, I don't see any path to a result that we can confidently say accurately represents the "will of the people"--I don't even know what the "will of the people" means when it hinges on a few hundred votes out of 6 million. If there is no reasonable non-partisan solution, then what we're stuck with is an agonizing partisan process, unless one side gives. > In the end, if you hand re-count one or four counties, HAND RE-COUNT > THEM ALL. I agree. > But if this falls Gore's way, and the opened can of worms extends to > Wisconsin, Iowa, and Oregon as it may, please don't look on Bush > with any less favor than you do on Gore. I will, however, look on Bush with less favor for trying to foreclose the process and claim victory before the standard procedures have run their course and the absentee ballots counted--and for running to a federal court to intervene in lawful state procedures (particularly ironic for a republican; I've read the complaint, and IMHNALO, it doesn't pass the laugh test). [1] http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20001110/ts/election_florida_dc_17.html Also see http://www.herald.com/content/archive/news/yahoo/digdocs/058333.htm for some comparison of discard rates in different counties. [2] http://www.si.umich.edu/~presnick/BallotConfusion/ [3] http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/09/politics/09PALM.html [4] http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20001112/ts/election_leadall_dc_93.html - -- Dan Riley dsr@mail.lns.cornell.edu Wilson Lab, Cornell University "History teaches us that days like this are best spent in bed" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 16:23:11 -0500 From: Paul Blair Subject: Re: election Joe Zitt wrote in response to me: > > Those who seek to guarantee they will be taken care of, claim it is >> inhuman to have to face the ultimate responsibility for their own >> survival. Instead they expect to force their neighbor to bear the >> responsibility they regard as inhuman--in the name of universal love >> and harmony. >> >> But those who would ensure that people don't have to worry about >> their own material survival can only do so at the expense of those >> who do worry about it. What sense is there in a morality that >> depends on the existence and support of those it condemns? > >This viewpoint may rest upon a misapprehension >of the range of events that can happen in the course of a person's >life, beyond the scope of a single human's recovery without the support >of those around him. (The fable of the ant and the grasshopper fails to >address the possibility of the destruction of the anthill.) > >Perhaps we are blessed to live in a society where people have not had to >address these concerns firsthand. But that may leave us all the more >vulnerable should these events arise. I agree that calamities can occur to individuals through no fault of their own, sometimes to great numbers of them in the form of natural disasters, wars, etc. I did not mean to oppose either insurance or generosity in such situations. Neither is inconsistent with holding that individuals are ultimately responsible for their own lives, that they are not the moral property of others, and that they are not entitled to claim as a matter of right that others serve their needs. Buying insurance against risks is not shirking responsibility; to the contrary--provided the insurer assumes the risk voluntarily, and the insurance does not substantially increase the likelihood of the insured-against situation. In such cases, one's premium tends to reflect one's own risk of loss--one is still pulling one's own weight, even as one makes oneself more secure against chance disasters by pooling risks with others. Nor is giving or receiving charity irresponsible, provided it is treated as voluntary assistance to overcome an emergency or temporary hardship, and not the norm of human life. In such cases, the recipient is grateful and does not act as if entitled to the gift, perhaps instead repaying the gift later or extending charitable help to others in similar circumstances. Neither charity nor insurance guarantees that people will automatically be saved from any calamity they happen to face. That's part of what it means to bear ultimately responsibility for one's own life. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 16:28:53 EST From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: Re: mike and leo In a message dated 11/11/00 9:23:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org writes: << The historical record about both Leonardo and Michaelangelo is replete with lifestyle choices that are signatures of homosexuality. Handsome and famous though they were, they didn't marry. Their most intimate servants were attractive men. And the sculpture of Michaelangelo ignores female anatomy (except in Pieta where he got it right), but the attention he lavished on the male body is the focus of someone who appreciated what he was creating. Leonardo is more of a stretch. Although he documented his work to the finest detail, his personal life was not. Perhaps he was asexual, but that seems odd for a guy who was so completely rev'd. We know he was somewhat vain about his good looks, perhaps excessively so. Recently Lillian Schwartz of Bell Labs wrote a fascinating study that showed that the Mona Lisa was Leonardo seen as a woman. She used the one extant self-portrait (made as an old man) and correlated key facial features. It is a fascinating concept and reinforced the growing realization that he was gay. >> I have read a little bit about both of these individuals in my time, and to me they just seemed to be in endless processes of work. They spent ALL of their time creating. Michaelangelo was either painting the ceilings of chapels or writing letters to his father, informing him that he was destitute. I tried to detach myself from our current, more comfortable world in which we live, where sexuality becomes a prevalent aspect of one's life. I don't think either of these men spent much time thinking about sex. I think Michaelangelo appreciated the human body very deeply, but it wasn't so much in a sexual manner. It was more of a spiritual glorification of the human physique as a window to man's inner fire. In addition, we must keep in mind that masculinity did have the upper hand in that place and time. The male body was more glorified because, unfortunately, femininity just wasn't as appreciated. This is all just my personal conjecture, but who knows, it's really difficult to tell what was going on centuries ago. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 14:10:41 -0800 From: Neile Graham Subject: Re: mike and leo RedWoodenBeads@aol.com wrote: re: Michaelangelo >it's really difficult to tell what was going on centuries ago. It is, except he wrote a series of sonnets unambiguously addressed to a male lover. Of course you can never know for certain about relationships unless you're one of the people involved (and sometimes not even then) but the evidence in the case of Michaelangelo, Shakespeare, and Whitman is pretty compelling. I don't know anything about the evidence in support of Leonardo's inclinations. I don't care much, but I hate to see people basing their assumptions on Michaelangelo's painting and sculpture, as he was also a poet, and we have his own words to read. I also think it's a silly assumption to make that sex was any less important for people in the past than it is for people today; it was only in the 19th century that sex became something people didn't talk about in polite society, and it has always been talked about by everyday people (see the lyrics to popular ballads at nearly any period in any country and you'll see what I mean--I recently went to a concert of 10th century European music and the lyrics were obviously suggestive. I think you can safely say that much of popular music has always been about sex.) Regarding music, I am still obsessing on Terami Hirsch's _all girl band_. Also really, really enjoying the new PJ Harvey. Cheers, all. - --Neile n.p. Billie Holiday, _God Bless The Child_ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neile Graham ...... http://www.sff.net/people/neile ....... neile@sff.net Les Semaines: A Weekly Journal . http://www.sff.net/people/neile/semaines The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music ....... http://www.smoe.org/ectoguide ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 14:10:04 -0800 From: "Angel's Shadow" Subject: Re: vampire songs One of my favorite songs which happens to be a vampire song is "Lovesong for a Vampire" on the Bram Stoker's Dracula soundtrack. It's sung by Annie Lennox who doesn't usually do too much for me. I suppose "Blood Red" on Rose Chronicle's cd Happily Ever After too... Kristen ------------------------------ Date: 12 Nov 2000 14:49:23 -0800 From: "Michael Pearce" Subject: Re: Are there *any* Republicans/conservatives on this list??? Joseph Zitt writes, >On Sat, Nov 11, 2000 at 10:50:44AM -0800, Michael Pearce wrote: >> Joseph Zitt writes, >> >On Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 08:25:10PM -0800, Michael Pearce wrote: >> > > > >> Until recently, only the most extreme left shared this view, that >> >> there is "incorrect" art that needs to be suppressed. Thanks to the > > >> hellacious notion of "political correctness," this idea has taken on > > >> broader acceptance. > >Uh, so what did you mean by the reference to taking on "broader >acceptance"? Is that a contradiction, an ambiguity, or a paradox? Well, not exactly, I just mean that the idea that certain kinds of speech and self-expression should be censored for the "good of the community" has become more accepted by less fanatical members of the left side of the spectrum. Once, they were the staunchest defenders of free speech, but the Dworkin-style "victim feminists" promoted the idea that certain ideas and language was inherently destructive to all women as a class, regardless of the opinions of individual women, and should be stopped. As time went on and the Dworkinites became discredited, the idea spread beyond that group. Now, the only difference between that faction of the left and the authoritarian right is the specifics of what should be censored, and when it comes to anything remotely related to sexual oriented material, they unite. Even the ACLU is not willing to defend some kinds of speech, but if you can't speak or publish really horrible stuff then we have no 1st Amendment any more. Moderate and reasonable speech is seldom at risk, at least until after the censors get their way and they start looking for other stuff to ban. Slippery slope, and all. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 15:10:01 -0800 From: "Angel's Shadow" Subject: Re: election >But the main reason I would prefer Bush over Gore is because I am very > passionate about the issue of abortion... . I tend to think that a lot of > women who seek out abortion are vulnerable and feel prompted to go ahead with > the procedure, whether it be because of their boyfriends or families, etc > pushing them to do it. I know there are a lot of issues, everything from rape > to financial factors, but I just can't see killing the baby as the answer. If > anything that just seems like additional emotional scars to deal with. Just a few questions to get in the middle of some very emotional subjects for most people (Please keep in mind, I'm not attacking anyone's opinions. We, obviously, all have a right to what we believe): Why is it that I find many of the people who are afraid of losing their rights to have an abortion don't believe in the death penalty? What crime has an unborn child commited? I have such a hard time with the abortion question myself due to my nervousness in regards to the ever increasing control the government is exerting on our personal lives, but after reading some news articles like those in Newsweek regarding partial birth abortions, I was just horrified. "Do women paying for an abortion have a right to a dead baby," was the common topic. Do criminals who have taken human life and, therefore, declared that "life isn't precious" to them, have a right to life based on the ideal that "all life is precious?" Why is a criminal's life more precious than a life never given a chance? These are some of the questions going through my mind these days... Kristen ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 15:40:08 -0800 From: "Angel's Shadow" Subject: Re: mike and leo >but the attention he lavished on > the male body is the focus of someone who appreciated what he was creating. I believe it's also easier to render the sex type that you are since you have had a lifetime of familiarization and will continue to have that type available for study ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 19:05:19 -0500 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: election On Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 03:10:01PM -0800, Angel's Shadow wrote: > Why is it that I find many of the people who are afraid of losing their > rights to have an abortion don't believe in the death penalty? What crime > has an unborn child commited? I have such a hard time with the abortion > question myself due to my nervousness in regards to the ever increasing > control the government is exerting on our personal lives, but after reading > some news articles like those in Newsweek regarding partial birth abortions, > I was just horrified. "Do women paying for an abortion have a right to a > dead baby," was the common topic. Do criminals who have taken human life > and, therefore, declared that "life isn't precious" to them, have a right to > life based on the ideal that "all life is precious?" Why is a criminal's > life more precious than a life never given a chance? These are some of the > questions going through my mind these days... The issue falls in the language. The pro-choice people believe fairly axiomatically that, up to a certain point, a fetus is not yet a human life; the pro-choice people believe, fairly axiomatically, that it is. When one uses terms such as "unborn child", "dead baby", and "partial birth", or, on the other side "right to choose",one has already taken on the mindset of one of those sides, and will find oneself blocked linguistically, to a great extent, from being able to understand the other's view. (Myself, I'm undecided... which means that I choose not to participate in making that decision for others... which means that I don't believe in the government forcing one choice or the other on people... which, I suppose makes me pro-choice. But I'm glad to have never had to participate in such a decision.) - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 20:27:17 -0500 From: Michael Curry Subject: Re: jorane / Eleni Mandell At 03:36 AM 11/10/00 -0500, Steve I wrote: >Hey philes, >forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but according to >the DKD website, Jorane's new album 16mm was released on November >7. I haven't actually seen it yet, but it does seem to be listed >in the databases at http://futureshop.ca and http://www.absound.ca. Hmv.com doesn't seem to have it in stock either, as they list it as "usually ships in 14 days." AB Sound has it as "special order (ships in 6-8 weeks)," and Futureshop has it as a special order as well. Grrr. Has anyone out there in ectoland been able to hear this yet??? Michael np: PJ Harvey -- Stories from the City, Stories from the Sea nr: A Clash of Kings by George R.R. Martin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 22:44:48 EST From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: Re: election In a message dated 11/12/00 3:23:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, angelsshadow@earthlink.net writes: << Why is it that I find many of the people who are afraid of losing their rights to have an abortion don't believe in the death penalty? What crime has an unborn child commited? I have such a hard time with the abortion question myself due to my nervousness in regards to the ever increasing control the government is exerting on our personal lives, but after reading some news articles like those in Newsweek regarding partial birth abortions, I was just horrified. "Do women paying for an abortion have a right to a dead baby," was the common topic. Do criminals who have taken human life and, therefore, declared that "life isn't precious" to them, have a right to life based on the ideal that "all life is precious?" Why is a criminal's life more precious than a life never given a chance? These are some of the questions going through my mind these days... >> This has always been the first thing that pops into my head whenever i hear pro-choice people supporting the death penalty. I myself oppose the death penalty, because I believe no one has the right to take human life even if someone else has violated that right. At times I wish we could all just not kill anything and be content with that. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 18:32:43 -0800 From: Neile Graham Subject: Neile's September Discs Hi, all-- In an unusual twist, a post entirely about music. Here is the embarassingly lengthy list of my September acquisitions. In alphabetical order no less! Comments & responses welcome! - --Neile Badly Drawn Boy, The Hour of Bewilderbeast I read about this disc in a couple of UK sources and everyone seemed to be talking about this male singer-songwriter as a new folkpop sensation. So when I found the disc used, I snapped it up. Well, to folk here on ecto this kind of folkpop is old news, and though much of this is pretty catchy and interesting, I wouldn't say it was all that spectacular. Still, if you like this kind of music, it's a fine example. Bellatrix, It's All True _It's all true_ is a disappointment, a confirmation of what the recent ep and singles were warning me: that Bellatrix, since moving to England and no longer using their Icelandic name, has smoothed their wild edges and gone mainstream. Alas! No more wild shrieking, horrendously loud guitars, weird vocalizations and strange song structures. Now were are pop. Sigh. Give me _Stranger Tales_, perferably in its Icelandic version, anyday. http://www.bellatrix.co.uk Bjork, Selmasongs Though it's a soundtrack, it's definitely Bjork. (Well, the overture track is definitely a generic overture track). "I've Seen It All" especially could be something off _Homogenic_. So I would say it's definitely worth getting for Bjork fans. It's unlikely it will be anyone's favourite Bjork album but it's more than just a soundtrack, too. Holly Cole Trio, Treasure 1989-1993 This is a collection of hits and previously unreleased tracks, and is a great compilation for someone who wants a taste of Holly Cole and isn't enough into her jazz to have it all. That's why I bought it it--because I'm not a jazz fiend, and one disc is enough, so I'd rather have one that is her own favourites and hits. A fine collection. Ani difranco, swing set [ep] I'm such a git that I'll buy remixes and singles sometimes just to get a song by an artist that doesn't appear anywhere else. This is one of those cases. It has two versions of "swing" (a song I like quite a lot) but these are just a radio set (which doesn't have the rap section--yay) and the album version. It also has a remix of "to the teeth" which starts with a looped gunshot, well, I already thought the song was remarkably unsubtle so I don't much care for this. I do like her live version of Woody Guthrie's "Do Re Me" and Phil Och's "When I'm gone". I tend to like the first version I hear of any song best, so maybe because I like them so much because I don't know the originals, since I don't like her version of Dylan's "hurricane" so very much but she sure sings it with passion, though. Cranky me. Thea Gilmore, Lipstick Conspiracy The Lipstick Conspiracies reminds me very much of Thea Gilmore's first album that I also quite liked, Burning Dorothy. They're very in the angry woman contemporary folk mode that so many artists are working in now, but there's something fresh about Thea Gilmore that I really like. It's the combination: her tunes and lyrics and her voice are strong and she manages to make them edgy without being strident. A breath of fresh air. Gjallarhorn, sjofn This is very like Ranarop, their first disc, which I also really liked. For fans of the more quite side of Garmarna (but still very lively, just not as electronic). Wonderful vocals, great musicianship. I'm sure they'd be great live. The songs here are a wonderful collection of traditional material--the stories make me wish I understood Swedish. Heather Nova, Wonderlust (live) If, like me, you didn't like Heather Nova's last studio album, _Siren_ much, you can take heart fron her new live disc (not yet released in the U.S.), _Wonderlust_. Heather Nova has always shone live and she knows it (hence the fact that this is her third official live release), and she definitely does shine here. This is most material from _Oyster_ and _Siren_ but even the _Siren_ material sounds good to me, which confirms my belief that it was the production that ruined _Siren_ for me (well, I also had some acoustic versions of the material on singles that also confirmed this). Anyway, this isn't startling different than her other live discs and it contains yet another live version of "Sugar," but I'm not going to complain--I love this. Niamh Parsons, In My Prime She has a lovely voice for traditional tunes. She has a rich evocative voice and that Sandy Denny-like knack of singing the tunes in a way that makes the lyrics come to life. I recommend her work to anyone who likes traditional Celtic and English music. This particular disc has some really lovely songs, and a range of them from lively ones to heartbreaking ballads. I particularly like her versions of "In My Prime", "Green Grass It Grows Bonny". Hmm, I started to list nearly every song on this album. It's a good one. Pram, The Museum of Imaginary Animals Pram are just so off-kilter sounding, always. Each of their albums is different, but off-kilter in the same way and full of interesting and unusual--but musical--sounds, and Rosie's odd vocals and lyrics. I especially enjoy this album, though I've liked all of theirs. It has an unusual and intriguing energy, especially "Mother of Pearl" and "Play of the Waves". Delightful. Purr Machine, Ging Ging It's noisy like Caterwaul. More electronic. But it still has that wonderful raspy Betsy Martin voice. Yum. Play loud. There are some quiet and delightful songs, too. But lots of noise and even some trip hoppy sounds and flavours, some crunchy ethereal sounds and flavours, but with that scratchy, wonderful voice. Rosewater Elizabeth, Faint I got this because of strong recommendations from ectophiles several years ago, and because I really like the band Rosewater Elizabeth morphed into, Underwater. _I Could Lose_ was one of my favourites from last year, and it's more in the ectronic mode. This is quite atmospheric and Gothic compared to that but it has the same interesting sense of structure, and the same great vocals. Recommended for any Goth lover. Parts of this remind me a little of Big Hat. I prefer their Underwater incarnation, but this is highly listenable. cecil seaskull, whoever If you are an indierock listener and don't mind babyish voices, this is for you. Quite a lot of the time it's for me, too. Cecil Seaskull used to be in Nerdy Girl, so if you liked them, you'll like her solo work, too. Stripped-down, indie sounding, quirky. Yell-singing mocking "I love him! He's perfect!", several soft sincere-sounding love songs, almost Liz Phair-like in the flat honesty of her statement. There's a song in French, too (Seaskull is from Montreal). The tunes are always catchy, and the tunes mostly earnest. Good listening. Seely, winter birds This is really lovely. Seely sounds like early Stereolab in many ways, but really is all the things I like about Stereolab and none of the things that I've grown less interested in over time. Really lovely vocals, good songwriting--sort of updated '60s pop ethereal. They deserve to be better known, on ecto and elsewhere. I think this one is even better than their first disc (even though there are some male(!) lead vocals here). "Planes circle do" and "sandy" seem the epitome of their music, and I particularly love these songs. http://www.seelymusic.com Sohre, Marika This is a hard one to pin down as far as a description goes. The vocals are ethereal, sometimes lively, sometimes sultry, and the music ranges from pop, ethereal, world, some progressive sounds with sometimes elements of all of these within one song. The first song is quite pop, but the rest of what follows to me is appealing. The disc is full of interesting vocals, percussion, accordion, and unpredictable songs. Definitely a disc that comes into more focus the more you listen to it. Switchblade Symphony, The Three Calamities This is one I picked up because I've been interested in some reviews I've read of Switchblade Symphony's works, and picked a disc of theirs almost at random. They are a crunchy ethereal band, of the noisier Cocteau Twins genre. Good vocals. I enjoy this one but it doesn't knock me out. kathryn Williams, Little Black Numbers Little Black Numbers is a wispy collection of jazz-touched folk/pop songs with hints of Stina Nordenstam and Beth Orton. So far I quite like it, though I'm not often in the mood for something quite so quiet, and quiet things don't always catch me but this does. I think because of the nice production touches. Shannon Wright, maps of tacit The song that catches me most in this album is the one that I found first as an mp3 sample and that let me to decide to buy it, but I still like the rest. It's the kind of music that requires attention to appreciate, though. The album starts off sounding like a kind of slightly softer Cat Power with a Liz Phair-like voice, and it has that same stripped-down indie feel that those two artists have. The overall tone is quite plaintive, so when I'm not listening closely I get annoyed by it, but when I am listening to it, I find the tunes and style really catches me. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neile Graham ...... http://www.sff.net/people/neile ....... neile@sff.net Les Semaines: A Weekly Journal . http://www.sff.net/people/neile/semaines The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music ....... http://www.smoe.org/ectoguide ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V6 #340 **************************