From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V6 #271 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Saturday, September 16 2000 Volume 06 : Number 271 Today's Subjects: ----------------- The Mirror Reveals, 'Frames of Teknicolor.' [Craig Gidney ] Re: is it possible? [Joseph Zitt ] Re: The Mirror Reveals, 'Frames of Teknicolor.' [canetoad@panix.com] "good" and "bad" in the forests of the west (too long) [dmw ] Re: "good" and "bad" in the forests of the west (too long) ["glenn mcdona] Re: "good" and "bad" in the forests of the west (too long) ["Brian Errick] Re: is it possible? [kerrywhite@webtv.net (kerry white)] Re: "good" and "bad" in the forests of the west (too long) [RedWoodenBead] Love sues Universal for part of MP3.com spoils [WretchAwry Subject: The Mirror Reveals, 'Frames of Teknicolor.' The Mirror Reveals, "Frames in Teknicolor' The debut CD from this female-male duo of Kit Messick and James Babbo comes in a digipak with two Mucha paintings. The cover is a picture of an idealized beauty, with long golden hair entwined with flowers, in white robes. She gazes out with languid glamour, surrounded by stylized stars and moons. The back cover shows a young man rending his bare chest, while a ghostly nymph seems to mock his pain. These dramatic images perfectly mirror the music within: ornate, idealized and over-dramatic. Messick has a beautiful voice, and uses enunciation that you might hear in a cabaret or in musical theater. Its very proper and precise, the perfect vehicle for Babbo'slyrics. His lyrics mostly deal with Lost Ideals and Alienation, and put together, the song cycle resembles a kind of coming-of-age novel, wherein the callow protagonist finds himself, after much navel-gazing. In this context, Messick's distant reading of thematerial makes her a muse of sorts, an omniscient narrator. Babbo favors purple prose with fantasy references that mars his writing-a thank-you to Tolkien in the liner notes uncovers a possible inspiration. But for the most part, his music-tentative acoustic guitar, backed with discreet, synthetic orchestration that doesn't overpower-compensates for some of the weak lyrics. It's a melancholic mix, with rays of halcyon brightness. The most egregious failure is `The Undying Man,' a convoluted story-song about a man falling in love with fairy princess, one of the two songs with a male vocalist (who tries to sound like Peter Murphy). It's a duet, and reminds one too uncomfortably of one of those bombastic Meatloaf epics. By contrast, a highlight of the CD is the atypical `In A Box,' which also features prominent male harmonies, that has a nice throbbing late 80s new-wave/goth bass line to liven things up. But most of`Teknicolor's' sounds are lulling. www.middlepillar.com - --Craig __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 06:12:27 -0700 (PDT) From: kitty kat Subject: Re: Veda Hille/Mary Lydia Ryan/Jill Sobule/Carrie Akre in Seattle! I was having trouble ordering my tickets on her website, and Mary mentioned that Veda also wasn't confirmed... She said she'd update me/us/her mailing list when everything was finalized. - -K On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Neile Graham wrote: > Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 20:38:08 -0700 > From: Neile Graham > To: kitty kat , Ecto > Subject: Re: Veda Hille/Mary Lydia Ryan/Jill Sobule/Carrie Akre in > Seattle! > > > Oops, I gather I was a little premature with the announcement and things > aren't quite finalized. It also looks as though Jill Sobule and Carrie > Akre WON'T be there. > > I'll have to send final info later--obviously Mary and I had a > miscommunication. > > This is still in the works. > > --Neile > > > At 5:02 PM -0700 9/13/00, kitty kat wrote: > >Fantastic! I was just about to pre-order my tickets when I finished > >reading my ectomail. I _definitely_ will now :) > > > >-K > > > >On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Neile Graham wrote: > > > >> Hey, all-- > >> > >> Mary Lydia Ryan just emailed me to let me know that Veda will be joining > >> her and Jill Sobule and Carrie Akre at their Oct. 5th benefit concert for > >> Northwest Harvest Food Bank at the Tractor Tavern. > >> > >> Please, if you live in the area, consider coming to this! Mary Lydia has > >> worked hard to pull this off, and she, the other artists, and Northwest > >> Harvest deserve the support. > >> > >> And besides, with that bill the music will be incredible. > >> > >> --Neile > >> > >> n.p. The Galerkin Method (weird and wonderful) > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Neile Graham ...... http://www.sff.net/people/neile ....... neile@sff.net > >> Les Semaines: A Weekly Journal . http://www.sff.net/people/neile/semaines > >> The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music ....... http://www.smoe.org/ectoguide > >> > >> > >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Neile Graham ...... http://www.sff.net/people/neile ....... neile@sff.net > Les Semaines: A Weekly Journal . http://www.sff.net/people/neile/semaines > The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music ....... http://www.smoe.org/ectoguide > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 09:09:22 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: Re: ecto-digest V6 #270 In a message dated 9/14/00 11:03:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org writes: << It looks like this is going to be in your permanent sig line. If no one else is going to say it, I will. I find this extremely offensive. Like some others here, I like Madonna and though I can handle your decision to keep a closed mind about her (as in not even considering the things people like about her and respecting *our* decisions), I think it's rude of you to continue the debate in a sig line. Everyone knows how you feel, so what do you think you're accomplishing with this? >> Very well, then it's gone, see, no more! I wasn't using it to keep a debate going or anything, a few of my friends and I just thought it sounded hilarious. I will keep it off any ecto posts. Sorry about that. Joe http://www.angelfire.com/indie/impryan "This is a risky anti-candle scheme!" ~Al Gore if he'd been there for the invention of the light bulb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 09:10:11 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: Re: chuck's music In a message dated 9/14/00 11:03:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org writes: << I just went over and had a quick listen. Yes, some people here will definitely like Chuck's music. Check it out. >> I listened too and it's good stuff! You've really accomplished something here, Chuck, be proud of yourself. Joe The Smiths good Madonna bad http://www.angelfire.com/indie/impryan "This is a risky anti-candle scheme!" ~Al Gore if he'd been there for the invention of the light bulb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 09:14:47 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: Re: ecto-digest V6 #270 In a message dated 9/14/00 11:03:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org writes: << i like david gray a lot. i think he's a really good lyricist and his vocals are very expressive. right now i'm listening to a century ends. i also have sell sell sell and, umm, flesh. has he done anything else besides white ladder? >> Nope, that's his whole discography. Check it out at the below URL: http://www.cdnow.com/cgi-bin/mserver/SID=850711470/pagename=/RP/CDN/FIND/disco graphy.html/ArtistID=GRAY*DAVID Joe http://www.angelfire.com/indie/impryan "This is a risky anti-candle scheme!" ~Al Gore if he'd been there for the invention of the light bulb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 09:17:23 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: Re: miranda sex garden In a message dated 9/14/00 11:03:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org writes: << I'd heard a lot of good things about MSG, but their albums have never clicked for me. The first one with madrigals gets old fast, and is kind of flat. And their later work never seems to gel into anything that works for me. But I immediately liked what the Mediaeval Baebes were doing. Took the best elements of the various stages of MSG and built off of them in a way that seemed fresh and alive. So I definitely agree with Rosana on that one. >> Actually I agree too. prefer the Baebe to Miranda. Maybe Kat should make Mediaeval Baebes her full time project. Miranda actually just put a new album out called CARNIVAL OF SOULS if anyone is interested. You can get it from their new dotcom site: http://www.mirandasexgarden.com Joe http://www.angelfire.com/indie/impryan "This is a risky anti-candle scheme!" ~Al Gore if he'd been there for the invention of the light bulb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 09:20:28 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: Re: is it possible? In a message dated 9/14/00 11:03:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org writes: << but things aren't objectively bad. >> Well, I dunno about that. I mean, would it be impossible for someone to go out and intentionally make something bad? What if four people got together, and decided to make an album that really sucked. What if they got two guitars, a bass and drums and just started pounding on them for every track? What if this went on for eleven or twelve tracks? Would this piece of work be objectively bad, or, in fact, would it be just a matter of opinion? Joe http://www.angelfire.com/indie/impryan "This is a risky anti-candle scheme!" ~Al Gore if he'd been there for the invention of the light bulb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 08:57:40 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: ecto-digest V6 #270 On Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 09:09:22AM -0400, RedWoodenBeads@aol.com wrote: > Very well, then it's gone, see, no more! I wasn't using it to keep a debate > going or anything, a few of my friends and I just thought it sounded > hilarious. I will keep it off any ecto posts. Sorry about that. > > > Joe > http://www.angelfire.com/indie/impryan > > "This is a risky anti-candle scheme!" > ~Al Gore if he'd been there for the invention of the light bulb Now if we can only figure out what the bleep the current .sig could possibly mean... - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 09:00:03 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: is it possible? On Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 09:20:28AM -0400, RedWoodenBeads@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/14/00 11:03:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org writes: > > << but things aren't objectively bad. >> > > Well, I dunno about that. I mean, would it be impossible for someone to go > out and intentionally make something bad? What if four people got together, > and decided to make an album that really sucked. What if they got two > guitars, a bass and drums and just started pounding on them for every track? > What if this went on for eleven or twelve tracks? Would this piece of work be > objectively bad, or, in fact, would it be just a matter of opinion? If you had heard the Shaggs, you would no longer have to wonder. Actually, though, it is quite possible to make something that falls so far from its original intent or intended genre that it becomes fascinating in its own right. - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:08:04 -0400 (EDT) From: canetoad@panix.com Subject: Re: The Mirror Reveals, 'Frames of Teknicolor.' > The Mirror Reveals, "Frames in Teknicolor' They opened for the Changelings in NYC a couple of months ago. While their live performance wasn't what you'd normally call "dynamic," it did very effectively set a mood. I ordered the digipak the next day, and like it a lot. www.middlepillar.com is a dangerous site. I've been browsing more or less alphabetically and just ordering anything that sounds interesting. For the most part I haven't been disappointed. - Larne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 12:36:00 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: "good" and "bad" in the forests of the west (too long) On Fri, 15 Sep 2000 RedWoodenBeads@aol.com wrote: > << but things aren't objectively bad. >> > > Well, I dunno about that. I mean, would it be impossible for someone to go > out and intentionally make something bad? What if four people got together, > and decided to make an album that really sucked. What if they got two > guitars, a bass and drums and just started pounding on them for every track? > What if this went on for eleven or twelve tracks? Would this piece of work be > objectively bad, or, in fact, would it be just a matter of opinion? i think what you describe is disastrously close to sounding interesting on the one hand, and like an awful lot of rock music on the other. the whole notion of art brut is that people who don't know "the rules" can break them in ways that can be interesting, but that would never occur to "trained" musicians (or painters, or photographers, or....) i can give you two examples of where i most often find things that i describe as "objectively" "bad" first: music that is working in an established, recognized form, that deviates from that form in a way that does not seem to be a deliberate artistic choice. maybe it's a sweet little major-key pop tune, but the singer is drastically off key. maybe the bass line is too busy, and distracts from the other qualities of the composition. maybe the tempo of the drums is sloppy, or the kick is unsteady. maybe the mix is muddy, or just plain weird: drums too loud, vocals too low, whatever. the catch, of course, is that i can think of examples of all of the above in songs that i think are extraordinary, and very meritorious. the way pere ubu's david thomas sang on the early records, for example, seems to make the whole question of being "in key" ridiculously irrelevant. on the other hand, i hear these flaws all the time in recordings that *don't* have the magic spark that makes some extremely unconventional musicians, like pere ubu, or the shaggs, or beefheart, etc. make virtues of what are commonly heard as flaws. presumably, the musicians *themselves* are experiencing the work from a different perspective. i can't deny that it's always possible that a half-assed demo that i dismiss today will be hailed as visionary in ten years time. the music industry is littered with rueful tails of a&r people who passed on records that became huge hits, it's not a purely academic concept. for the most part, my practical definition of quality rests on demonstration of appeal that goes beyond the artists involved. that is, if the record has a "face only a mother could love" and even the girl/boyfriends of the band can't bring themselves to say they like it, then it truly is "bad." if a bunch of people appreciate it, then, presumably, there must be something "there" to "get," and the work has merit. of course, this runs very contradictory to my other set of cases, since some very popular music fails my other major criterion: second, i think of works as "bad" if they don't seem artistically honest. i'll be more specific here: i've been hearing an increasing number of releases by people who sound like they listen to *way* too much Elliott Smith. i like Elliott Smith quite a bit, actually, i think he's written some fine songs, and his resigned, world-weary delivery suits them/him well. but records that appropriate production and arrangement tricks that are part of what defines his sound are falling very flat for me, because these folks don't have the solidity of Smith's artistic vision behind them. the songs, simply, aren't as "good" in ways that i think are very nearly objective, in terms of melodic & harmonic interest, the relation of lyrical to musical content, the structure of the songs, etc. it's always possible that the Smithalikes really *wanted* to make a record that sounded like Elliott Smith, only a little more boring, and that they succeeded at their own artistic objectives. but i don't think it's a very useful perspective to write from. i'll also note that it doesn't really matter if it's an act of conscious imitation or not, if you wind up with a record that's a whole lot like brand X -- that is, trying to achieve very similar artistic goals -- but less successful at them, your record isn't as "good." there's a more general category of records that, rather than aping a particular artist or sound, seem to be trying to imitate the general quality of success, and i generally think these are the very worst of the lot. however, they are, almost without exception, extremely well produced/performed according to the current dominant standards of technical merit - it's the songs underneath the gloss that are soul-sucking pits of vapidity. but don't get me started. of course there are exceptions here, too, although i think they're comparitively rare. if you're being imitative, most especially if you're being imitative of the color of money, it's hard to transcend your source material, but it does happen now and then. - -- d. - - oh no, you've just read mail from doug = dmw@radix.net - get yr pathos - - www.pathetic-caverns.com -- books, flicks, tunes, etc. = reviews - - www.fecklessbeast.com -- angst, guilt, fear, betrayal! = guitar pop ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 12:56:02 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: Re: ecto-digest V6 #270 In a message dated 9/15/00 6:41:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jzitt@metatronpress.com writes: << Now if we can only figure out what the bleep the current .sig could possibly mean... >> This sig has always been there. It refers to Al Gore's constant referals to everything from tax cuts to school vouchers, etc, as a "risky scheme". At the Republica National Convention, Bush pointed out that if Gore had been there for the invention of the light bulb, automobiles, etc he would've called them "risky schemes". Joe http://www.angelfire.com/indie/impryan "This is a risky anti-candle scheme!" ~Al Gore if he'd been there for the invention of the light bulb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 13:11:06 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: Re: "good" and "bad" in the forests of the west (too long) In a message dated 9/15/00 9:36:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dmw@Radix.Net writes: << there's a more general category of records that, rather than aping a particular artist or sound, seem to be trying to imitate the general quality of success, and i generally think these are the very worst of the lot. however, they are, almost without exception, extremely well produced/performed according to the current dominant standards of technical merit - it's the songs underneath the gloss that are soul-sucking pits of vapidity. but don't get me started. >> This is a great point. What I am asking myself right now is; is really glossy production "good" production? I mean, just because something is really slick and exploits the highest level of technology, is that what makes it the best the industry has to offer? Maybe the best production is the hands-off-let-the-artist-shine approach But then ofcourse, something like that would be impossible to achieve with someone who is trying to hit the jack pot rather than strike an artistic chord. In short, all Britney Spears' producer can do is make it as glossy as possible? Wheras someone who is making an album with Happy Rhodes, Mary Margaret O'Hara or some other band/artist with a high level of artistic vision and all around talent, can back off and let the brilliance shine forth. I would imagine Britney Spears walks into a studio and waits to be told what to do. Mary Margaret O'Hara probably walks in and takes control of the situation. Interesting stuff. Anyway, here's what I'm trying to say: is glossy production an attempt to fill a vacum of artistic worth? Joe http://www.angelfire.com/indie/impryan "This is a risky anti-candle scheme!" ~Al Gore if he'd been there for the invention of the light bulb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 15:46:58 -0400 From: american damon Subject: Re: ecto-digest V6 #270 http://www.serve.com/brenta/billprit/ RedWoodenBeads@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 9/14/00 11:03:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org writes: > > << i like david gray a lot. > i think he's a really good lyricist and his vocals are very expressive. > > right now i'm listening to a century ends. > i also have sell sell sell and, umm, flesh. has he done anything > else besides white ladder? >> > > Nope, that's his whole discography. Check it out at the below URL: > > http://www.cdnow.com/cgi-bin/mserver/SID=850711470/pagename=/RP/CDN/FIND/disco > graphy.html/ArtistID=GRAY*DAVID like i'd trust THEM. but i did find david's official site off of ubl, and you're right. then, on a lark, i went and found a bil pritchard discography, which all you you people should be interested in, because i think he's very ecto. not the lyricist gray is, but still good,and his voice has a soft lilting melancholy to it. discs apparently reaslly hard to find. so right up y'all's alleys. > Joe > http://www.angelfire.com/indie/impryan > > "This is a risky anti-candle scheme!" > ~Al Gore if he'd been there for the invention of the light bulb - -- People say men are genetically engineered to prefer polygamy, but you don't see that many women upset enough when their husbands leave them to shoot everybody in sight. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 15:50:08 -0400 From: "glenn mcdonald" Subject: Re: "good" and "bad" in the forests of the west (too long) Dorothy L. Sayers, best remembered as the author of the Lord Peter mysteries, wrote a great book called _The Mind of the Maker_, which I highly recommend to anybody who cares about human creativity, which presumably includes almost everybody on this list. The book is nominally an attempt to explain the Holy Trinity by analogy to the human creative process (and there's a theological explanation for why this is a sensible thing to do), but her breakdown of the process of creative expression is interesting in itself. She effectively identifies three ways that art can be bad: 1. Failures of inspiration. Art can be bad because it sets out to do something worthless. Plenty of pop lyrics arguably suffer from failures of inspiration.Worthlessness is pretty subjective, though, and most popular music can fall back on entertainment as its goal, so this is of limited use for our purposes. 2. Failures of execution. Art can be bad because it tries to do something, but botches it. A rock band trying to go acoustic without rearranging their material might fail in this way, or a teen pop diva trying to make a serious folk album without having first developed any seriousness. This, too, is subjective, and very relative; we can often say that an album is bad at some particular thing, but not necessarily bad, period. Patty Griffin's _Flaming Red_, for example, might arguably be a bad folk album, but a good rock album. The movie _Random Hearts_ might be a terrible thriller, but a good portrait of grief. A Britney Spears song might be bad for listening, but good for dancing. 3. Failures of assessment. This one is more complicated than the other two, but has to do with not being able to accurately appreciate how the audience will receive the artwork. That is, you could have a decent idea, and execute it with adequate technique, but still fail because you didn't anticipate how the audience would construe what you did. A classic example of this is putting ten minutes of silence and then an alarm-clock noise at the end of a CD. It's an amusing idea, and easy enough to do, but to anybody with a multi-CD changer, who listens to the album more than once, it's incredibly annoying. Most popular music operates in well-defined and time-honored structures, though, so failures of this sort are relatively rare, and usually have to do with specific details more than with artistic wholes. So when we say an album is bad, we almost always mean some variant of critique 2, in which case what we ought to say is not than an album "is bad", but that it "is a bad ____". (Actually, what we ought to do is just shut up and let people enjoy whatever they enjoy without our judgmental meddling.) glenn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 13:47:15 -0700 From: "Brian Errickson" Subject: Re: "good" and "bad" in the forests of the west (too long) I say this goes for the earlier discussion on AIDS also. Emphasis on the judgmental. brian - ----- Original Message ----- >.......(Actually, what we ought to do is > just shut up and let people enjoy whatever they enjoy without our > judgmental meddling.) > > > glenn > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 15:36:49 -0500 (CDT) From: kerrywhite@webtv.net (kerry white) Subject: Re: is it possible? Hi, An excellent example of BAD music (kinda oxymoronic phrase) was the original GODZ. The name was later used by a heavy metal band. The orig Godz was 3 or 4 heroin junkies who just banged away on their instruments. The drummer is quoted as saying he never played drums in his life. They made the roughest parts of White Heat/ White Light by the Velet underground sound like sweet orchestral music. Also: Eefenally(sp) music: make a bit of a throaty noise when you breathe in and out. Take 3 or 4 people doing this with some hambome knee slappin' with maybe a bit of very twangy banjo or fiddle. Fill an LP with this and you have Eefenally(sp). 'tis music to die from. bye, KrW I'm Peter Pan! I'm perpetually young!! OW!! What's wrong with my back? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 17:15:08 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: Re: "good" and "bad" in the forests of the west (too long) In a message dated 9/15/00 12:50:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, glenn@furia.com writes: << A Britney Spears song might be bad for listening, but good for dancing. >> I dunno. I've always found the beats of Britney Spears, Backstreet Boys, etc, to be horribley electronic and emotionless, jerky and unsoulful. It is my personal opinion that the best stuff to party too (including dancing) would have to be early soul music like Aretha Franklin or Sam & Dave, etc. So much smoother, so much more soulful. Joe http://www.angelfire.com/indie/impryan "This is a risky anti-candle scheme!" ~Al Gore if he'd been there for the invention of the light bulb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 21:04:23 -0500 From: WretchAwry Subject: Love sues Universal for part of MP3.com spoils She is just too cool! http://www.upside.com/News/39c0353b0_yahoo.html Originally seen at Slashdot: http://slashdot.org/articles/00/09/15/174230.shtml ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 00:41:24 -0400 From: american damon Subject: Re: "good" and "bad" in the forests of the west (too long) RedWoodenBeads@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 9/15/00 12:50:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, glenn@furia.com > writes: > > << A Britney > Spears song might be bad for listening, but good for dancing. >> > > I dunno. I've always found the beats of Britney Spears, Backstreet Boys, etc, > to be horribley electronic and emotionless, jerky and unsoulful. It is my > personal opinion that the best stuff to party too (including dancing) would > have to be early soul music like Aretha Franklin or Sam & Dave, etc. So much > smoother, so much more soulful. tell that to kids today, who dance readily to nin, or underworld, or things like one dove [a dance ecto band]. hell, even area has some nice dance music, and that's all electronic beats. - -- People say men are genetically engineered to prefer polygamy, but you don't see that many women upset enough when their husbands leave them to shoot everybody in sight. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 01:03:11 -0400 From: american damon Subject: Re: "good" and "bad" in the forests of the west (too long) dmw wrote: missed this one too. > On Fri, 15 Sep 2000 RedWoodenBeads@aol.com wrote: > > > << but things aren't objectively bad. >> > > > > Well, I dunno about that. I mean, would it be impossible for someone to go > > out and intentionally make something bad? What if four people got together, > > and decided to make an album that really sucked. What if they got two > > guitars, a bass and drums and just started pounding on them for every track? > > What if this went on for eleven or twelve tracks? Would this piece of work be > > objectively bad, or, in fact, would it be just a matter of opinion? ever hear of classical atonalism? rite of spring? it caused riots. for something to be 'objectively' bad, then it has to be bad outside the constraints of idiosyncratic interpretation. good luck in THAT. in the end, something is 'good' if it appeals to you. i don't claim that james is objectively better than the smiths, or that area is objectively better than the cowboy junkies. imean, how the hell would you measure that? bernard sumner of new order cannot sing. that didn't stop his band from making some of the most complex music *i've* heard, nor from his somehow using his voice in a powerful and emotive manner. people TRYING to make albums that suck? besides stravinsky? the sex pistols. some things just work anyway. ....... > i can give you two examples of where i most often find things that i > describe as "objectively" "bad" > > first: music that is working in an established, recognized form, that > deviates from that form in a way that does not seem to be a deliberate > artistic choice. maybe it's a sweet little major-key pop tune, but the > singer is drastically off key. ....... > the catch, of course, is that i can think of examples of all of the above > in songs that i think are extraordinary, and very meritorious. then these aren't the determining factors. you go on to state there's some uncategorizable 'it' that is really what you're basing your decision on. ..... > second, i think of works as "bad" if they don't seem artistically honest. ..... > there's a more general category of records that, rather than aping a > particular artist or sound, seem to be trying to imitate the general > quality of success, and i generally think these are the very worst of the > lot. however, they are, almost without exception, extremely well > produced/performed according to the current dominant standards of > technical merit - it's the songs underneath the gloss that are > soul-sucking pits of vapidity. but don't get me started. > oddly enough, that argues against objective badness- if they mimick something that is 'good', then it should be 'good' too. me, i'm a big perpective guy. i go by the 'nothing is original' mantra- in reality, the onlything original is perspective. i don't mind camouflage or red flag aping depeche mode, to name some blatant examples. as long as they say something i appreciate. - -- People say men are genetically engineered to prefer polygamy, but you don't see that many women upset enough when their husbands leave them to shoot everybody in sight. ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V6 #271 **************************