From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V6 #262 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Saturday, September 9 2000 Volume 06 : Number 262 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Stream-of-conciousness ideas for the WestFest [Bill Mazur ] music and time ["Adam K." ] Re: madonna [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] Re: madonna [Shirley Ye ] Re: madonna [dmw ] Re: madonna [ToriCure@aol.com] Ectofest and stuff. [John J Henshon ] sarah harmer in boston sunday the 10th [Paul Kim ] Re: A west coast ectofest - for real [Neile Graham ] Re: madonna [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] Re: madonna [Joseph Zitt ] Re: madonna [Joseph Zitt ] Re: madonna [Joseph Zitt ] Leah Andreone ["C Goldberg" ] We are Madonna, for we are many...(Re: madonna) [Ted ] Re: madonna [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] Re: madonna [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] Re: We are Madonna, for we are many...(Re: madonna) [Paul Kim ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 00:27:15 -0700 From: Bill Mazur Subject: Re: Stream-of-conciousness ideas for the WestFest Hello my friends and fellow Ectophiles, It's great to see all of this creative thinking! Let's keep the ideas flowing and make Ectofest West a reality. This D.I.Y. approach by a fan base of Marillion gathered enough money a few years ago for them to do a complete tour of the U.S. (not just one date) when their record company wouldn't pay for them to come over here. I know that Suzanne C. can give more detail on this subject. I personally would be willing to contribute $$$ to the cause. As I have stated in previous posts on this subject, I will also help in any other way that I can, within the constraints of my very busy weekly schedule. Of course I want to see Happy! As far as other Ectofest West artists are concerned, Cyoakha has expressed interest in performing. Obviously, she gets my vote! Azigza or Land of the Blind (Cy's musical projects) would be fabulous for the festival. I also would love to see Kate Price, Susan Court, and Emily Bezar. I wish Katheleen was fully recovered from her surgery and feeling well. I would throw our hat into the ring too. Maybe for Ectofest West II. :-) My vote would also be for the event to be held in the springtime somewhere in the SF Bay Area. Springtime: Ectofest West - Fall: Ectofest (the original fest organized so exceeding well by Chuck and Meth). No schedule conficts that way. Seattle or San Diego are also location options. I am slightly biased toward the Bay Area because I live here. I also feel that the SF Bay Area location might be a little easier to get to for most Western states Ectophiles. I hope that you can pull this together Shelly! All the best to this endeavor and to all of you! Bill M. n.p. John Hackett/Steve Hackett _Sketches of Satie_ Phil Hudson wrote: > Neile wrote ..."-actually, well nigh impossible thing will be to find > someone willing to front the money to pay for Happy, her airfare, > accommodation, etc." > > As the subject says, this is in no particular order, just direct input from > brain to keyboard. > > For starters: > Who's got frequent flyer miles to spare? I believe that certain airlines > will provide a ticket based on an aggregation of mileage from different > members - a friend did this to go see her Mom ,who was sick. There may need > to be a pressing "family emergency" required, but I don't think they ask for > proof, besides, we do represent a family of sorts, and it IS critical that H > gets out here to play :) > > I'll check w/my friend to see what the reqs were. * OR * if someone has a > lot of miles, perhaps they'd like to donate a flight? Frequent Flyers also > get free coupons for hotel stays, or 2 nights for the price of 1, car > rentals, etc etc. > > Anyone know any hotel managers or airline employees? > > Alternatively, how many are we, and how much can we individually kick in? > Neile's assertion is correct; finding "someone" to front the $$ is tough, > but finding 25 "someones" to kick in $50 each should be a lot easier. > > I'd also like to suggest fundraisers; how many active musicians are there in > the Bay Area, who could devote time to a fundraising gig or two? > > Can we get some feedback from those willing or able to contribute anything, > from time, services, money, mileage, equipment, etc. Shelly D has graciously > put up a Ecto west message board at > www.cybermagician.net/wwwboard. > > Regards too all, here's to making this happen > > Phil ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 02:07:44 -0700 (PDT) From: anna maria "stjärnell" Subject: Madonna Hi.. glenn wrote.. Smug bullshit. _Ray of Light_ is about as Ecto as albums come. hear, hear..I agree. Anna Maria np-Primitives_lovely __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 12:09:33 +0100 From: "Adam K." Subject: music and time These kinds of things, for me, are long ago and non-ecto related. They tend to revolve around my adolescence and late teens/early 20's, before the 80's started and I moved back to England and pretty much stopped discovering music for a while. There are a few random snapshots: Lying in bed while at college, staring up at the stars through the window and listening to "Watcher of the Skies" from the first live Genesis album, and seeing a shooting star. Yes' "Relayer" always reminds me of the Summer of '77, when I first got the album, and I'd just moved to NYC and used to sit in my air-conditioned room listening to it. To this day, whenever I hear it, I can hear the low hum of air-conditioning and practically taste the stale, chilled and damp air it pumped out. Oh, and I'll always remember sitting on a back porch in Connecticut around '75 - '76, listening to Elton John's "Caribou", Be-Bop Deluxe's "Starburst Finish" and Steve Hackett's "Voyage of the Acolyte" on a mega-heavy old mono record player (the school kind, with the speaker in the lid" that I'd dragged out there with me. I haven't had many moments like that in the last 20 years, and can't recall any of them, although I love music none the less. I look forward to gathering more. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 09:57:12 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: Re: madonna In a message dated 9/8/00 10:45:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, glenn@furia.com writes: << > And in the Madonna tradition, it's as bland, uninnovative and useless to the > artistic world as ever! =) Smug bullshit. _Ray of Light_ is about as Ecto as albums come. >> Well, I tend to differ in my views on Madonna. I don't find anything artistic in Madonna's music, it's just over-produced, over-comercialized nonsuch, but that's just my opinion. I don't see her as an artist at all in the way she sees herself. When Natalie Merchant writes about a German immigrant working in a 1880's furtnitue shop, or when Mary Margaret O'Hara croons gracefully over an acoustic bass "you will be loved again" or when Billie Holiday weaves tales of 1940's black New York, that's art to me. When Madonna makes a video where she rubs her ass against Mike Myers, that's comercial bullshit. Again, all my own opinion. But someone else who shares my opinion is Stephen Patrick Morrisey of The Smiths (a band which I would say has contributed brilliance to the art world all over the place) "I can't see Madonna as being of any importance. She's little more that comercialized prostitution". - -Morrisey Joe http://www.angelfire.com/indie/impryan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 08:45:52 -0700 From: Shirley Ye Subject: Re: madonna but Morrisey is a very depressing and miserable person, sad a lot of the time. i love his music but one needs to take him with a grain of salt. there's this joke in which a guy names his band "my girlfriend takes morrissey too seriously." who says madonna has not written about serious issues, anyway? have you heard her songs "papa don't preach" or "live to tell" or "keep it together"--all dealing with very serious issues such as father-daughter relationship, rape, and sibling ties. her music and presence has done much for women and the gay community (as well as a lot of it being very infectious and danceable). talk about feminism! i believe madonna has done more for women in the music industry than your mary margaret ohara and natalie merchant combined! (and i love natalie dearly, but really savvy business woman is not on her job description). i can say that for many young girls in the 80s (and even 90s?), madonna provided a sexy, savvy, and empowering role model. At 09:57 AM 9/9/00 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 9/8/00 10:45:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, glenn@furia.com >writes: > ><< > And in the Madonna tradition, it's as bland, uninnovative and useless to > the > > artistic world as ever! =) > > Smug bullshit. _Ray of Light_ is about as Ecto as albums come. >> > >Well, I tend to differ in my views on Madonna. I don't find anything artistic >in Madonna's music, it's just over-produced, over-comercialized nonsuch, but >that's just my opinion. I don't see her as an artist at all in the way she >sees herself. When Natalie Merchant writes about a German immigrant working >in a 1880's furtnitue shop, or when Mary Margaret O'Hara croons gracefully >over an acoustic bass "you will be loved again" or when Billie Holiday weaves >tales of 1940's black New York, that's art to me. When Madonna makes a video >where she rubs her ass against Mike Myers, that's comercial bullshit. Again, >all my own opinion. But someone else who shares my opinion is Stephen Patrick >Morrisey of The Smiths (a band which I would say has contributed brilliance >to the art world all over the place) > >"I can't see Madonna as being of any importance. She's little more that >comercialized prostitution". > >-Morrisey > >Joe > >http://www.angelfire.com/indie/impryan > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 11:47:43 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: Re: madonna On Sat, 9 Sep 2000 RedWoodenBeads@aol.com wrote: > sees herself. When Natalie Merchant writes about a German immigrant working > in a 1880's furtnitue shop, apple. or when Mary Margaret O'Hara croons gracefully > over an acoustic bass "you will be loved again" apple. or when Billie Holiday weaves > tales of 1940's black New York, apple. > When Madonna makes a video > where she rubs her ass against Mike Myers, orange. b.s. it may well be, but it's got nothing to do with the merits the music may (or may not) have. - - d. np amy correia "transportation songs" - - oh no, you've just read mail from doug = dmw@radix.net - get yr pathos - - www.pathetic-caverns.com -- books, flicks, tunes, etc. = reviews - - www.fecklessbeast.com -- angst, guilt, fear, betrayal! = guitar pop ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 12:37:01 EDT From: ToriCure@aol.com Subject: Re: madonna Hi, I think this personal attack on someone's opinion is pretty damn immature and let's be honest, music was Madonna's platform from the very beginning in order to reach her goal of fame. "Music" reaffirms the fact that it STILL is a major platform for her, and it's nowhere near as good as Ray of Light. But if it wasn't for the producers who worked with her on each album, Madonna couldn't cut it on her own. She's not a musical storyteller, she's a trend setter. And hell, she's not even setting the trends now, she's lagging pretty badly behind. I think it's pathetic that she is 41 years old and feels the need to act like a pimp at a strip joint, even for humorous purposes. She's covered sex a million times, and that seems to be the only thing she can think of to come back to. And, granted, I love songs like "Live to Tell" and "Who's That Girl" and many more... and she has had the ability to focus on serious issues in songs. But it's not JUST about the music. It's about be! ing Madonna. The music is secondary to the image she has to uphold. That's my peace. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 12:58:06 -0400 From: John J Henshon Subject: Ectofest and stuff. Hey all, Thanks to all the artists, Chuck, Meredith, my brother-in-law Tony, and everyone else involved (including those who braved Mother Nature's wrath) for making Ectofest a memorable event for me. Four of my favorite artists in the world in one place at one time, yow ! Also got to see a couple of new (to me) artists who's work I'll need to give a closer look to. I was very impressed with everyone's performance under those less than ideal circumstances. I wouldn't be surprised to find Bon's picture in the dictionary to illuminate the term cool. I had only seen Anne once before, eight days prior to Ectofest, at the Living Room, and both times I was delighted by the experience. Fellow Ectofolks Patricia and Kimberly played her disc for me shortly before that first show and I was immediately hooked. The disc, a live one, is terrific, but pales after seeing her and Frank live. At the Living Room show I did get a better chance to see what kind of contribution Frank makes to Anne's work. His harmonies are dead on and his guitar work is right there too. Those of you who didn't get to see Happy at Ectofest should really try to make it to the Knitting Factory shows October 5. The stripped down version of the Happy Rhodes show better illustrates just how very talented this woman really is. I really love the MWABT disc and was transported by the shows that came shortly after it's release, but I'll take a performance like she gave us at Ectofest over those any day of the week. Also thanks to Lori, the hostess at Chez Chuck, for hooking me and Tony up with libation and Chuck's damn good Lasagna. She was lookin good and takin charge. Susan McKeown told us she wasn't feeling top shelf, but you wouldn't have ever know it by listening to the show she put on. She never fails to amaze me. Each time I see her with Jon Spurney I get a better idea of why she decided to hook up with him. Looking forward to seeing her at the Bottom Line on October 7. Happy mentioned Robert Fripp twice during the course of her performance. Perhaps one of you could pass word along to her for me that he's got something going on at the Winter Garden of the W.F.C. from Tuesday November 28th through Thursday November 30th. It will run from 12:15 PM to 6:30 PM. Their brochure describes it like this: "During this three day residency, the founding member of King Crimson improvises his atmospheric Soundscapes which, like their forerunner Frippertronics, are based on delay, repetition and hazard." They give a phone number for info as 212-945-0505 and refer those interested to www.worldfinancialcenter.com. Who will become the "West Coast Chuck" ??? Without Chuck and Meredith Ectofest East Parts I & II would never have happened. Someone needs to step forward and take the reins if Ectofest West is ever to be more than a notion. I would love to see that become a reality. If it does go down perhaps alternate coasts for alternate years would be the way to go after the West Coast version becomes a reality. Being I'll be out of town Labor Day 2001 I hope Chuck holds to convening Ectofest East 2001 the weekend before Labor Day. I think convincing my brother to get married on a date other than the one he has planned might be a tough sell. Again, thanks to all, I had a ripping good time. John Henshon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 12:54:56 -0400 From: Paul Kim Subject: sarah harmer in boston sunday the 10th according to WBOS 92.9, www.boston.com and www.rounder.com, sarah harmer will be playing the WBOS Newbury Street Fair tomorrow during the afternoon. ALso playing is Merrie Amsterburg. Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 12:14:19 -0700 From: Neile Graham Subject: Re: A west coast ectofest - for real At 5:48 PM -0700 9/8/00, kitty kat wrote: >On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Neile Graham wrote: > >> I should also let people know that while it's not official, word is that >> Mary Lydia Ryan is considering organizing a possible ectofest in Seattle in >> spring. She's working on another major concert right now and so will think >> about this when it's done but she's interested. > >Is this the October one with Jill Sobule, or another major concert? :) It's that one, I think. I haven't been in direct contact with her about this--it's all secondhand, which is why I didn't immediately post about it. - --Neile - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neile Graham ...... http://www.sff.net/people/neile ....... neile@sff.net Les Semaines: A Weekly Journal . http://www.sff.net/people/neile/semaines The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music ....... http://www.smoe.org/ectoguide ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 15:04:23 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: Re: madonna Well I am afraid I see Morrisey as a greater artist than Madonna, in all respects. how has Madonna done anything for women? And what's so feminist about her little "boy toy" necklace and her video for express yourself where she's chained up and all that? I'm sorry, but Madonna, as far as I'm concerned, hasn't done anything but make trillions of dollars for major record labels and make a load of over-sexed mentally midgited videos designed to sell t-shirts at the mall. Morrisey has done nothing less than elevate music in the 1980's, and his influence on the music community has been tremendous. Perhaps I'm just as overly-serious as Morrisey, but Madonna is nothing but a load of sexually retarded comercial bullshit. Sorry. She doesn't even compare to geniuses like Mary Margaret O'Hara and Natalie Merchant. She's not even in the same ball park. They are artists, she's pop culture, like 7-up or taco bell. I don't care how "buisness-like" and "powerful" she is, her work is stagnant. What's so great about buisness anyway? Don't we have to think about money way too much in this culture? Can't we actually feel something instead of having the American attitude of "get out and make millions!" rammed down our throats all the time? I'm with Morrisey. Down with Madonna. In a message dated 9/9/00 10:46:39 AM Central Daylight Time, shye@uclink4.berkeley.edu writes: << but Morrisey is a very depressing and miserable person, sad a lot of the time. i love his music but one needs to take him with a grain of salt. there's this joke in which a guy names his band "my girlfriend takes morrissey too seriously." who says madonna has not written about serious issues, anyway? have you heard her songs "papa don't preach" or "live to tell" or "keep it together"--all dealing with very serious issues such as father-daughter relationship, rape, and sibling ties. her music and presence has done much for women and the gay community (as well as a lot of it being very infectious and danceable). talk about feminism! i believe madonna has done more for women in the music industry than your mary margaret ohara and natalie merchant combined! (and i love natalie dearly, but really savvy business woman is not on her job description). i can say that for many young girls in the 80s (and even 90s?), madonna provided a sexy, savvy, and empowering role model. >> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 14:28:53 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: madonna On Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 09:57:12AM -0400, RedWoodenBeads@aol.com wrote: > Well, I tend to differ in my views on Madonna. I don't find anything artistic > in Madonna's music, it's just over-produced, over-comercialized nonsuch, but > that's just my opinion. I don't see her as an artist at all in the way she > sees herself. When Natalie Merchant writes about a German immigrant working > in a 1880's furtnitue shop, or when Mary Margaret O'Hara croons gracefully > over an acoustic bass "you will be loved again" or when Billie Holiday weaves > tales of 1940's black New York, that's art to me. When Madonna makes a video > where she rubs her ass against Mike Myers, that's comercial bullshit. I think if you were to hear some of Madonna's less known work without knowing ahead of time that it was hers, you might receive it differently. Tracks such as "Has to Be", "Act of Contrition", and "Justify My Love", as well as some of her performance work, including the church sequence from the tour documented in "Truth or Dare" (although that movie cut it up so as to fracture its impact) and hmmm... the performance with the women in kimonos and the plastic bags of water (I forget which song or venue it was), stand up to anyone's work in the field. As far as the comparisons, one can play the apples-and-oranges game forever -- most artists have one item in their litany that's a bit embarrassing. And the Madonna video in question was actually a self-parody, done quite intentionally as such. Few artists have quite as clear a view of their own media image, as well as being confortable enough with it to poke fun at themselves. > Again, > all my own opinion. But someone else who shares my opinion is Stephen Patrick > Morrisey of The Smiths (a band which I would say has contributed brilliance > to the art world all over the place) The Smiths had a good guitarist and good vocals. But Morrissey's consistently nasty, arrogant, and abusive lyrics make it hard to pay attention to his dislike for anything, since he seems to hate everything in the world other than himself. - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 14:39:44 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: madonna On Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 12:37:01PM -0400, ToriCure@aol.com wrote: > Hi, > I think this personal attack on someone's opinion is pretty damn immature and let's be honest, music was Madonna's platform from the very beginning in order to reach her goal of fame. Yup. Unlike, say, all those guys who start bands because "chicks dig it"? > I think it's pathetic that she is 41 years old and feels the need to act like a pimp at a strip joint, even for humorous purposes. Speaking as a fellow 41 year old: do I sense age-ism in your comment? If not, what do you mean by raising the issue? > She's covered sex a million times, and that seems to be the only thing she can think of to come back to. And, granted, I love songs like "Live to Tell" and "Who's That Girl" and many more... and she has had the ability to focus on serious issues in songs. But it's not JUST about the music. It's about being Madonna. The music is secondary to the image she has to uphold. That's my peace. And do you music as a factor in the art of image-creation to be a bad thing? Why? Can you think of a successful artist who has not partaken in image creation? Remember that even Maria Callas emphasized to her students that they must have an image. - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 14:46:12 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: madonna On Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 03:04:23PM -0400, RedWoodenBeads@aol.com wrote: > Well I am afraid I see Morrisey as a greater artist than Madonna, in all > respects. how has Madonna done anything for women? How has Morrissey done anything for women? Or for men, for that matter? > I'm sorry, but Madonna, as far as I'm > concerned, hasn't done anything but make trillions of dollars for major > record labels and make a load of over-sexed mentally midgited videos designed > to sell t-shirts at the mall. Ah, you haven't seen the video of "Like a Prayer". If you can describe that as "over-sexed" and "mentally midgited" (do you mean "midget-like"?), it will be a clear sign of prejudices over-riding perceptions. > Morrisey has done nothing less than elevate > music in the 1980's, and his influence on the music community has been > tremendous. "Elevate"? In what sense? > Perhaps I'm just as overly-serious as Morrisey, but Madonna is > nothing but a load of sexually retarded comercial bullshit. Sorry. She > doesn't even compare to geniuses like Mary Margaret O'Hara and Natalie > Merchant. She's not even in the same ball park. They are artists, she's pop > culture, like 7-up or taco bell. I don't care how "buisness-like" and > "powerful" she is, her work is stagnant. What's so great about buisness > anyway? Don't we have to think about money way too much in this culture? > Can't we actually feel something instead of having the American attitude of > "get out and make millions!" rammed down our throats all the time? I'm with > Morrisey. Down with Madonna. Ah, this sounds like the tired idea that a commercially successful artist must be bad. - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 14:04:10 -0700 From: "C Goldberg" Subject: Leah Andreone Someone asked about Leah Andreone a few weeks ago. I actually don't have any news, per say, but I do have her fairly new demos. The songs are nothing spectacular (although they *are* just demos) but "Take Me Higher" (acoustic ballad) and "No Accident At All" (an interesting Brit-pop turn) have potential. For those interested, here's the tracklisting for the demos: 1. You Pulled Me Through 2. Inconceivable 3. I Trip 4. Those Were the Good Old Days 5. Take Me Higher 6. Saturday 7. Why Do I Blister 8. Wear You Well 9. Why Can't You Talk 10. No Accident At All 11. Can You Touch Me One More Time 12. Make Time For Me 13. Climbing NP: Anne McCue-Amazing Ordinary Things HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 17:31:03 -0400 From: Ted Subject: We are Madonna, for we are many...(Re: madonna) Joseph Zitt wrote: > > > Ah, this sounds like the tired idea that a commercially successful > artist must be bad. > IMHO this thread is like a hamster wheel. In order to ascertain what is good musically, we must all play by the same rule book. Now what is that rule book???? Is Madonna a musician? I don't think so. So she's not technically a musician, is she a composer? I don't think she actually writes all her own scores, maybe a few. Is she a lyrical author, probably only on a few peices. Is she a singer? I honestly can't answer that, I don't think I've ever heard her voice without some envelope around it, I suppose at bare minimum she may be able to sing in key. What we do know for sure is that she is surrounded by a virtual army of musicians, engineers, technicians, choreographers, videographers and all around general butt kissers, and she pays a lot of money. Now I ask you who can be totally bad with the the multitude she has surrounding her? In my own view, even with this multitude of the finest in the business behind her, she comes off as mediocre and homogenous with an occasional "ray of light" peaking through. If you took only Madonna out of the mix and substituted Mrs. Miller, I don't think anyone would notice the difference. So IMHO, all the Kudos should be saved for her staff, I wished they would work for me. I wonder if they take any charity cases.... - -- They Might be Giants Dial a Song Service 1-718-387-6962 "Free when you call from work!" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 18:32:20 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: Re: We are Madonna, for we are many...(Re: madonna) On Sat, 9 Sep 2000, Ted wrote: > Is Madonna a musician? I don't think so. i think that one is going to annoy a lot of singers. there *is* an interpretive dimension, regardless of who authored the work to start with... > Is she a singer? I honestly can't answer that, I don't think I've ever heard her voice without some > envelope around it, I suppose at bare minimum she may be able to sing in key. > What we do know for sure is that she is surrounded by a virtual army of musicians, engineers, technicians, choreographers, videographers and all around general butt kissers, and she pays a lot of > money. > Now I ask you who can be totally bad with the the multitude she has surrounding her? > In my own view, even with this multitude of the finest in the business behind her, she comes off as mediocre > and homogenous with an occasional "ray of light" peaking through. > If you took only Madonna out of the mix and substituted Mrs. Miller, I don't think anyone would notice the difference. > So IMHO, all the Kudos should be saved for her staff, I wished they would work for me. I wonder if they take any charity cases.... here in the year 2000, with the Antares pitch corrector and all (saw one of those used at a session for the first time last week...interesting) i think it probably would be possible to make almost anyone's voice sound good, or at least interesting. someone may dispute this, but i don't think that was nearly as feasible in the early 80's when ms. ciccone got started. - - oh no, you've just read mail from doug = dmw@radix.net - get yr pathos - - www.pathetic-caverns.com -- books, flicks, tunes, etc. = reviews - - www.fecklessbeast.com -- angst, guilt, fear, betrayal! = guitar pop ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 18:37:30 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: Re: madonna In a message dated 9/9/00 12:12:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jzitt@metatronpress.com writes: << The Smiths had a good guitarist and good vocals. But Morrissey's consistently nasty, arrogant, and abusive lyrics make it hard to pay attention to his dislike for anything, since he seems to hate everything in the world other than himself. >> Well there's our difference. Morrisey had a keen insight into 1980's British culture, the human condition and he was a brilliant poet. His command of the English language is unquestionably outstanding. Johnny Marr was one of the greatest and most original guitarist of his generation, subtle and rhythmic while being bold and powerful, elegant while retaining a sublime agression that is simply umatched. Andy Rourke was a pheonomenal and dynamic bassist and Mike Joyce was a superb drummer. The Smiths created an entire world which has inspired and improved the music world in ways I cannot even express. Madonna has been nothing more than a nuesance to art. Her career has been a barron swim in retarded sexuality and a self-obsessed sewer. Her music is worthless. I've heard "Justify my Love" and I fail to see the innovation. Comparing her to The Smiths is like comparing a burger from McDonalds to Manna from heaven, as far as I'm concerned. Passionate words yes, but I am a passionate person, and these are my opinions and my opinions alone. Joe http://www.angelfire.com/indie/impryan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 18:50:46 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: Re: madonna In a message dated 9/9/00 12:29:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jzitt@metatronpress.com writes: << How has Morrissey done anything for women? Or for men, for that matter? Morrisey's work has been an insight into human existance and the daily lives of the average human person. As far as the music he's made with The Smiths, its originality and innovation is clearly valuable to the art world. This is particularly clear when one takes into account the tremendous amount of artists who have been influenced by their work. > I'm sorry, but Madonna, as far as I'm > concerned, hasn't done anything but make trillions of dollars for major > record labels and make a load of over-sexed mentally midgited videos designed > to sell t-shirts at the mall. Ah, you haven't seen the video of "Like a Prayer". If you can describe that as "over-sexed" and "mentally midgited" (do you mean "midget-like"?), it will be a clear sign of prejudices over-riding perceptions.> Ok, let's get one thing straight. This has nothing to dow ith prejudice. this is about opinion. Just because I enjoy The Smiths work and not Madonna's doesn't mean I am prejudice, it means I have a different opinion from yours. I have seen the video to "Like a Prayer", I would say it's typical 80's MTV such and such. It shows her rolling around an alter in a dress that's about to fall off with a man. Not a far fetch from what was on MTV in those days (Prince/Michael Jackson/etc). Sexy is might be, but art, I am afraid not. It denotes sudden emotions, passing urges. It doesn't really say anything about what is means to be a person, what life is. To me that's what art is and that's what I value. > Morrisey has done nothing less than elevate > music in the 1980's, and his influence on the music community has been > tremendous. "Elevate"? In what sense?> The Smiths were different, unique and took pop music to a higher level. They went beyond what was being done at the time, adding to it rather than dragging it down. They incorporated historical and poetic lyricism with a sophisticated shimmering guitar style. In my opinion, that was extremely progressive. Personally, I believe Madonna brought music down to her level. She couldn't write words like Morrisey writes and she couldn't write songs like The Smiths could. Again, my opinion. > Perhaps I'm just as overly-serious as Morrisey, but Madonna is > nothing but a load of sexually retarded comercial bullshit. Sorry. She > doesn't even compare to geniuses like Mary Margaret O'Hara and Natalie > Merchant. She's not even in the same ball park. They are artists, she's pop > culture, like 7-up or taco bell. I don't care how "buisness-like" and > "powerful" she is, her work is stagnant. What's so great about buisness > anyway? Don't we have to think about money way too much in this culture? > Can't we actually feel something instead of having the American attitude of > "get out and make millions!" rammed down our throats all the time? I'm with > Morrisey. Down with Madonna. Ah, this sounds like the tired idea that a commercially successful artist must be bad. >> Not at all. R.E.M. has been comercially successful and they are wonderful. I would say its true that most mega successful stuff tends to be on the lame side though. But normally, the more artistic artists tend to last longer than the comercially minded ones. I mean Britney Spears has made billions of dollars. Mary Margaret O'Hara hasn't. I rest my case. Joe http://www.angelfire.com/indie/impryan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 19:49:27 -0400 From: Paul Kim Subject: Re: We are Madonna, for we are many...(Re: madonna) At 06:32 PM 9/9/00 -0400, dmw wrote: >here in the year 2000, with the Antares pitch corrector and all (saw one >of those used at a session for the first time last week...interesting) i >think it probably would be possible to make almost anyone's voice sound >good, or at least interesting. someone may dispute this, but i don't >think that was nearly as feasible in the early 80's when ms. ciccone got >started. I know doug will probably thwack me (grin), but i wanted to throw in my two cents. not about madonna, but about vocal processing and edits. If you want to hear a blatant example of what the Antares Pitch Shift can do, think of Cher's "Believe"...you know those weird vocal jumps that happen? that's pitch shift. (I think it's also used on the Vertical Horizon song "You're a God") It can be a powerful tool to subtly correct pitch issues, or it can be an effect for its own sake. However, it can't make a bad vocal performance sound good. The more traditional method of creating good vocal performances that are in tune (other than getting someone who can actually sing) is recording multiple takes of the vocals and compiling the final take out of those. I've heard that Mutt Lange (Shania Twain's husband) will compile a take from 80 separate performances, and that Ricky Martin's album (which, incidentally, was done entirely on Pro Tools, a computer based Digital Audio Workstation) had vocals compiled from over 40 takes. It's not just to make sure the vocals are in tune, but also to get the proper inflections and best emotional deliveries. Something that I learned (and which surprised the hell out of me) in one of my classes from a teacher who does a lot of digital editing (he's worked on albums for Jesseye Norman and Itzhak Perlman, among others) is that a symphonic recording will often have more than 500, usually more than 1000, edits. Even "live" performances will be compiled. Kinda makes you think, huh? Paul Kim ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 22:45:49 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: We are Madonna, for we are many...(Re: madonna) On Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 05:31:03PM -0400, Ted wrote: > Is she a singer? I honestly can't answer that, I don't think I've ever heard her voice without some > envelope around it, I suppose at bare minimum she may be able to sing in key. > What we do know for sure is that she is surrounded by a virtual army of musicians, engineers, technicians, choreographers, videographers and all around general butt kissers, and she pays a lot of > money. > Now I ask you who can be totally bad with the the multitude she has surrounding her? Listen to any compilation of bad celebrity vocals, and you will know that some voices are irredeemable. While not a great singer, she is a singer. > If you took only Madonna out of the mix and substituted Mrs. Miller, I don't think anyone would notice the difference. Put Mrs. Miller in the studio and get her to sing "Live to Tell", then let me know if you can notice the difference. Let McCabe duet with her, if you wish. > So IMHO, all the Kudos should be saved for her staff, I wished they would work for me. I wonder if they take any charity cases.... > -- > They Might be Giants Dial a Song Service > > 1-718-387-6962 > > "Free when you call from work!" > - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 22:53:41 -0400 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: madonna On Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 06:37:30PM -0400, RedWoodenBeads@aol.com wrote: > Well there's our difference. Morrisey had a keen insight into 1980's British > culture, the human condition and he was a brilliant poet. His command of the > English language is unquestionably outstanding. That command having been questioned, that statement is false. > Madonna has been nothing more than a nuesance to art. Her career has been a > barron swim in retarded sexuality and a self-obsessed sewer. Her music is > worthless. I've heard "Justify my Love" and I fail to see the innovation. > Comparing her to The Smiths is like comparing a burger from McDonalds to > Manna from heaven, as far as I'm concerned. Passionate words yes, but I am a > passionate person, and these are my opinions and my opinions alone. There is a difference between passion and insult, and between opinion and ungrounded loathing. May you learn what that is before causing serious embarrassment and confusion. That you fail to hear the innovation in "Justify My Love" shows either that you are missing its cultural context and how it fit into the time when it was released or that you have slapped the insults over your ears for some extra-musical reason and are unable to hear it. I find it interesting that those who have so far joined in to this conversation in praise of Madonna have included working musicians who know what it takes to create and record music. I have not seen evidence of this among those who sling insults against her. - -- |> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <| | jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt | | Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt | | Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V6 #262 **************************