From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V5 #329 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Friday, October 1 1999 Volume 05 : Number 329 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Today's your birthday, friends... [Mike Matthews ] RE: Ectofest [Yngve Hauge ] [none] ["Drew Harrington" ] too much to give a proper name. long. possibly boring. [Zoetrope ] Re: Ectofest [FAMarcus@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 03:00:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Mike Matthews Subject: Today's your birthday, friends... i*i*i*i*i*i i*i*i*i*i*i *************** *****HAPPY********* **************BIRTHDAY********* *************************************************** *************************************************************************** ****************** Paul Kim (pkkim@student.berklee.edu) ******************* ***************** JoAnn Whetsell (sierran@earthlink.net) ****************** *************************************************************************** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Marvin Camras Sat January 01 1916 Tapehead Jeanne Schreiter Tue January 03 1967 Capricorn John Sandoval Wed January 04 1967 Capricorn Paul Cohen Tue January 05 1954 Capricorn Tony Garrity Mon January 08 1962 Pool of Life Greg Bossert Tue January 09 1962 OfTheTimes Troy J. Shadbolt Thu January 14 1971 Capricorn Chris Sampson Wed January 15 1964 Void where prohibited Dennis G Parslow Fri January 17 1964 ...of the Saint Ross Alford Thu January 17 1957 Positive Nancy Whitney Mon January 19 1959 slippery when wet Sarah Noelle Pratt Ferguson Tue January 20 1970 Seanympf-Aquarius David Beery Tue January 20 1976 drum Terry Partis Sun January 22 1933 Rocker Sarah McLachlan Sun January 28 1968 Aquarius Ilka Heber Mon February 01 1965 Mermaid Bob Lovejoy Sun February 02 1947 Aquarius Diane Burke Sat February 02 1963 slow children Timothy S. Devine Tue February 03 1970 Aquarius Stephen Thomas Fri February 04 1966 Aquarius Doug Burks Tue February 14 1956 Blank Jim Sturnfield Thu February 18 1954 Aquarius Juha Kannisto Wed February 18 1970 Aquarius Joel Siegfried February 19 Penguin Crossing Linda Saboe Tue February 20 1951 aimless Teresa Ross Wed February 23 1977 pisces Michael Curry Fri February 24 1967 Pisces Paula Shanks Mon February 25 1952 Pisces Brni Mojzes Fri February 26 1965 the vanishing boy Pamela Pociluk Fri February 28 1964 Pisces Tim Steele Fri March 08 1963 Pisces Matt Bittner Thu March 12 1964 Pisces kIrI Hargie Fri March 13 1970 Pisces Bob Dreano Thu March 13 1958 Pisces Randall K. Smith Sat March 15 1969 Pisces Jessica Skolnik March 16 Pisces Alan Sodoma Thu March 18 1965 LuckyLurker Richard Konrad Sat March 18 1944 Pisces Barry Wong Thu March 19 1970 Merlin Graham Dombkins Fri March 19 1965 Pisces Ian Young Wed March 19 1969 Squiggol Jeff Wasilko Wed March 19 1969 Pisces Geoff Carre Sat March 20 1954 Pisces John Stewart Sat March 21 1970 Aries Bob Brown Thu March 22 1951 Ham Valerie Nozick Thu March 25 1971 Aries Tom Proven Sat March 27 1971 Eat at Joe's Jennifer Albert Wed March 30 1966 Aries (w/Cancer rising!:) Warpaint Mon April 01 1991 Brilliant! Michael Pearce Wed April 03 1946 Pegasus Michael E. Bravo Mon April 05 1971 Dandelion Wine Brion McIntosh Sun April 06 1958 Aries Marcel Kshensky Thu April 06 1950 Aries Bill Mazur Mon April 06 1953 Aries Sun/Cancer Rising David Dixon Tue April 07 1970 Aries Heidi Heller Mon April 08 1974 Aries Jill Hughes Sat April 09 1955 Aries Klaus Kluge Sun April 10 1960 Unicorn Steve VanDevender Sun April 10 1966 Racer Art Liestman Fri April 10 1953 Repeat Stephen Golden Sat April 10 1971 Jokey Michael Bowman Wed April 11 1962 Aries Wolfgang Ullwer Fri April 11 1969 Widder Janet Kirsch Thu April 11 1974 Aries Jerry Tue April 13 1971 Aries Stuart Myerburg Mon April 14 1969 Aries T-Bone Wed April 15 1992 happy cat Jeff Hanson Sat April 16 1966 Aries Michael Klouda Mon April 17 1967 Aries Harry Foster Sat April 21 1956 NiceGuy Kjetil Torgrim Homme Thu April 23 1970 Taurus Jeff Burka Thu April 24 1969 GoFlyAKite Christine Waite Tue April 25 1972 Taurus Matt Adams Thu April 26 1962 Taurus Brad Hutchinson Tue April 28 1964 What sign? Geoff Parks Sun April 30 1961 Taurus Marty Lash Sat May 01 1948 Taurus Barney Parker Fri May 02 1986 happy cat Gray Abbott Tue May 03 1955 Suprised Tamar Boursalian Tue May 03 1966 Taurus Richard A. Holmes May 07 Taurus Steve Ito Fri May 08 1970 DA Bull... Brian Gregory Thu May 09 1963 Eclectic Patrick Varker Wed May 12 1954 Torius Steve Fagg Tue May 13 1958 Nightwol Karel Zuiderveld Fri May 13 1960 Stier Michael Colford Wed May 16 1962 Taurus Christopher Boek Tue May 19 1970 Taurus Yngve Hauge Fri May 21 1971 Gemini Lisa Laane Tue May 22 1973 Gemini Jewel Kilcher Thu May 23 1974 The Gem Chandra Sriram Thu May 27 1971 Gemini Urs Stafford Thu May 31 1973 Give Way Perttu Yli-Krekola Thu June 02 1966 Kaksoset Alex Gibbs Thu June 08 1967 Betelgeuse Gleb Zverev Tue June 09 1964 Gemini Sonja Juchniewich Mon June 10 1963 Pegasus Joerg Plate Mon June 12 1967 Gemini Chris Montville Tue June 13 1978 Gemini Ectoplasm (original name) Mailing List Thu June 13 1991 Fuzzier blue Mark R. Susskind Wed June 15 1966 Gemini Mike Matthews Mon June 16 1969 Dr. Firewall Albert Philipsen Mon June 17 1968 Gemini Neal R. Copperman Thu June 17 1965 Gemini Susan Kay Anderson Tue June 17 1969 Gemini Ecto-The Mailing List Tue June 18 1991 Fuzzy blue Tracy Barber Mon June 18 1956 Gemini Greg Dunn Thu June 18 1953 + Paul Blair Thu June 18 1964 Objectivist David Lubkin Fri June 20 1958 OurLady Marisa Wood Fri June 20 1969 Gemini Cheri Villines Sun June 20 1965 Gemini-Leo rising Ray Misra Sat June 20 1970 Gemini Nik Popa Sun June 22 1969 Cancer Teresa VanDyne Thu June 23 1960 Cancer Dave Torok Mon June 24 1968 Cancer Ethan Straffin Thu June 24 1971 Cancer Kevin Dekan Mon June 27 1960 Cancer Samantha Tanner Tue June 30 1970 Wild Goose BunkyTom Tue July 02 1968 Cancer Anders Hallberg Tue July 03 1962 Cancer Kevin Harkins Thu July 05 1973 Cancer Laurel Krahn Mon July 05 1971 Cancer John J Henshon Mon July 05 1954 The Year Of The Horse / Ruled By The Moon Jim Gurley Mon July 06 1959 Cancer Lisa Wilson Fri July 08 1960 Moonchild with Java Rising Courtney Dallas Fri July 09 1971 Catte Michael Peskura Sat July 09 1949 HallOfFamer Finney T. Tsai Sat July 09 1966 Cancer Larry Greenfield Tue July 11 1950 Virgo Rising; Gemini Moon Marion Kippers Tue July 13 1965 Kreeft Ellen Rawson Thu July 13 1961 Double Cancer Mitch Pravatiner Mon July 14 1952 Cancer Rich R. Wed July 14 1954 Cancer John Zimmer Sun July 16 1961 Cancer Dan Stark Sun July 16 1961 Cancer Cathy Guetzlaff Mon July 18 1955 Cancer Vlad Sat July 18 1970 Warning: severe tire damage Jani Pinola Thu July 20 1972 Jonquil Alvin Brattli Sun July 27 1969 Lefthanded Christy Eger Smith Thu July 27 1944 Horse Crossing Shirley Ye July 27 Lioness woj Sun July 28 1968 children at play John Relph Sat July 28 1962 Leo Bob Kollmeyer Wed July 28 1971 Leo Steve Lusky Tue July 29 1952 Bike! Kate Bush Wed July 30 1958 God Chuck Smith Wed July 30 1958 Reboot Yves Denneulin Fri July 30 1971 Lion-Heart Joel Kenyon Wed July 31 1963 Leo Eli Brandt August 05 Leo Martin Bridges Sat August 08 1970 BigGuy Happy Rhodes Mon August 09 1965 HolyGhost Michael Stevens Sat August 12 1967 For Sale or Lease Vickie Mapes Wed August 15 1956 WretchAwry Martin Dougiamas Wed August 20 1969 Positive Tori Amos Thu August 22 1963 Leo Sam Warren Tue August 22 1961 Leo Henk Van Wulpen Sat August 22 1970 Leo Kerry White Wed August 22 1951 Exact Leo/Virgo Don Gibson Wed August 26 1959 Virgo Marcel Rijs Mon August 31 1970 A rose growing old Meredith Tarr Wed September 01 1971 Virgo Mary Lou Rowe Sat September 03 1960 Virgo Scott Zimmerman Mon September 04 1972 Virgo Mike Mendelson Fri September 04 1964 Virgo Richard Dean Wed September 06 1967 Virgo David Blank-Edelman Sat September 09 1967 Neon Holly Tominack Thu September 10 1970 Virgo Sharon Nichols - Terra Incognita Wed September 11 1963 Victim of Christianity Heather Russell September 11 Total Virgosity Karron Lynn Lane Tue September 14 1751 Ophelia Virgo Troy Wollenslegel Mon September 18 1972 Virgo Mark Frabotta Sun September 19 1965 Don't even THINK about parking here Joe Zitt Sat September 20 1958 Will Hack for CDs Ani DiFranco Wed September 23 1970 Virgo Paul Kim Sat October 01 1977 fetal position JoAnn Whetsell Fri October 01 1976 Pendulum William Gill Wed October 05 1960 A wide-eyed wanderer Dan Riley Sun October 08 1961 Libra Neile Graham Wed October 08 1958 pen Quenby M. Chunco Tue October 08 1968 Crunchy Frog Mike Garland Wed October 08 1952 Creature_of_the_Night Irvin Lin Tue October 09 1973 Libra Michael C. Berch Wed October 10 1956 No parking Chris Gagnon Sat October 10 1970 Libra Wolfgang Drotschmann Thu October 13 1966 Waage Gracescape Fri October 13 1967 unbalanced Brian Bloom Tue October 14 1969 spam Erik N. Johnson Tue October 16 1962 Handle with Care Kim Klouda Tue October 17 1967 Libra Anthony Amato Sat October 20 1973 Libra Dave Steiner Sat October 24 1959 Scorpio Tara MacLean Thu October 25 1973 Scorpio Jessica Koeppel Wed October 29 1969 Scorpio Kathy Clark Sat November 01 1969 Bunnies Katie Dougiamas Sat November 02 1974 Scorpio Anthony Horan Fri November 04 1966 Positive Michael Sullivan Mon November 05 1962 Scorpio Anna Pryde Wed November 05 1975 Scorpio Sun; Sagittarius Moon; Pisces Rising Jens Brage Sun November 08 1964 Scorpio Rising Lynn Garrett Sat November 08 1958 Scorpio Sam Murgie Fri November 08 1957 Scorpio Rachel Kramer Bussel Mon November 10 1975 Scorpio Ken Latta Sun November 11 1951 Scorpio Michael Doyle Wed November 12 1969 Scorpio Neil K. Thu November 14 1968 Grocible Dave Cook Mon November 15 1971 Scorpio Jeff Pearce November 16 Orpheus Naama Avramzon Mon November 18 1974 Scorpio Jeff Smith Mon November 19 1962 Crash Kevin Bartlett Fri November 21 1952 Scorpio Claudia Spix Wed November 23 1960 Schuetze Anja Baldo Tue November 23 1965 Garbanzo Tommy Persson Wed November 25 1964 Sagittarius Pat Tessitore November 26 Sagittarius Valerie Kraemer November 26 Sagittarius Justin Bur Fri November 27 1964 Sagittarius Sue Trowbridge Sun November 27 1966 Skytten Ward Kadel Tue November 29 1977 Sagittarius Mirko Bulaja Sat November 30 1974 Block Juha Sorva Thu December 02 1976 Sagittarius Chip Lueck Thu December 05 1968 Sagittarius Michele Wellck December 08 Sagittarius Jeremy J. Corry Fri December 11 1970 Sagittarius Renee Canada Tue December 13 1977 Sagittarius Julie C. Kammerzell Sun December 15 1968 Sagittarius/Scorpio combo Gloria Jackson-Nefertiti Sat December 15 1956 queen_nefertiti@prodigy.net Damon Harper Tue December 16 1975 COOL BANANAS Laura Clifford Tue December 17 1957 Sagittarius Dirk Kastens Tue December 17 1963 Sagittarius Milla Wed December 17 1975 Sagittarius Chris Schernwetter Tue December 17 1974 Sagittarius Sherry Haddock Sat December 17 1960 Sagittarius Tracy Benbrook Tue December 18 1973 Sagittarius Mark Lowry Mon December 22 1969 Capricarius Uli Grepel Wed December 25 1968 Steinbock Joseph Wasicek Sat December 25 1976 Brown Eagle Stuart Castergine Mon December 30 1963 You Are Here ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 12:46:50 +0200 (CEST) From: Yngve Hauge Subject: RE: Ectofest On Fri, 1 Oct 1999, There is no spoon wrote: > First off, I apologise for being so blunt and sarcastic, > and for using Richard as a springboard. I've been > working 14 hour days and I'm a bit punchy. Second, > thanks to Jeff Hanson and irvin for their posts, especially > to irvin for putting what I meant into words better than > I did. They happened to put what I feel about this whole thing into words as well. We've missed you around here Vickie!!! > > This whole debate has cast a pall over Ecto (for me) > that I never would have imagined. It's pretty simple > to me. Ecto is either a "community" or it's a mailing > list that just happens to use a word called "Ecto" as > its title. You can't have it both ways, not that I see. > It's one or the other, to me. Ecto used to be a community, > one that saved my life, and one that I'm very greatful to. > Even though I've become distant and my chatterbox days > are long behind me, it had nothing to do with the list > itself, just rather, one of those things. I've always felt > close to the list and, until a couple of months ago, thought > of Ecto as a community. Ecto was the first place I had the guts to open myself and tell about my struggles. It was just like I knew people would care, and not just blow it off as nothing. So besides being my main source for new amazing music, I also feel comfortable with the people here. So I've looked upon Ecto as a community, and I wonder what is wrong about that? I've traveled around meeting ectophiles all over, and found out that the people behind the email-addresses is just as wonderful as I'd imagined. I've been around for many years already and tend to be around in the future even though I don't make as much noise anymore. > But when many old timers and new timers alike argued > (then and now) that "Ecto" is just a word, and it's ridiculous > (even "malicious" and flame-baiting) for anyone to dare to > question its use by list members for a *public* event, > benefitting their *own* chosen charities, rather than > Happy's or the result of a vote from the list, and that > there's no reason whatsoever that the list members > should have a say in the process, then that tells me that > Ecto is no longer a community. It's just a really cool mailing > list that happens to use the word, but the word itself has > little meaning other than being the name of an album, and > a song, and, oh yeah, this mailing list. I look upon Ecto as a word for a whole different way of thinking. The Ecto way (IMHO) has always been to embrace all newcomers, and make them feel comfortable here. How many of the great music would have been unknown to most of us if that hadn't been the case? My way of thinking about music has moved from listening to the known to search out the unknown. To me a comment like the one I got from a friend of mine : "I haven't heard about the artist, so I don't want to buy the CD." is sort of an insult to the artist's work. Before I joined Ecto I had not heard of more than 90% of all the artists now sitting around in my collection, and what a tragedy that had been!! > Charley loved this list. At least, until he fought for the > "community" and got flamed to a crisp for his concern. > Well, why should he care if no one else does? Why should > anybody? Some of us do care quite a bit, but I for one got so baffled by the responses to his expression of concern that I didn't know what to say. It was just like something broke inside me, so that I had to piece it together before I ended up doing something very stupid. I've been involved too much in politics lately *shiver* :) The whole town here oozes of negative vibes towards people who want things to happen. Glad I'm just a volunteer in this game around here, so I can get away if things get to bad :) *hugs* - -- Yngve, who is ectovangelizing alot right now. n.p. Inbetween artists ... been listening to Nields and will probably end up with Frente next. n.r. Chanur's Homecoming - CJ Cherryh ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 10:26:10 -0700 From: "Drew Harrington" Subject: [none] This review was forwarded from the Lamb list: Ok, now the concert itself - pretty f*cking amazing! I haven't seen a group work the crowd like they did. Why they haven't released a live cd is beyond me. Lou sounded great. I really thought the band would drown her out but the sound system kept things balanced. They played roughly a hour and fifteen minutes. Here's the order of the songs that I can remember: 1) Soft Mistake - Just like the album. A good warm up. 2) Little things - Again similar to the album - beefed up a little. Andy is a manic in back. You can see him smiling and totally enjoying himself. He seems to be controlling the vocal sound effects on Lou's voice in real-time. 3) Gold - Oh my god, an incredible long mix: Trumpet and drum solo. I need to have this on cd! This was one of the highlghts of the show. Lou dedicated the song to Chicago and threw gold dust on the crowd toward the end of the song. F*cking amazing! A real surprise. 4) All in Your Hands - Started similar to the album but Lou cuts loose in the middle with some freeform singing. Nice. 5) B-line - This song didn't translate well live. Something was missing. They wisely played only a short version. The best part was the audience singing along with the Ba Ba Ba part and Lou doing a little more freeform singing next to the trumpet player. Lou introduced the song as 'about lust'. 6) Ear Parcel - Very Cool. Really worked the crowd. The trumpet player really cuts loose here. Amazing. Lou walks back to join Andy then walks off stage waving only to come back at the end of the song. I think they introduced the entire band and this point. I remember Andy telling the crowd to give 110% but then he said that we were doing that already. 7) Alien - Again like B-line something was missing here for me. I love this toon but it was hard to move to this piece. A little dissappointed here because I really like this song. Oh, the bass player generates some really scary sounds with his instrument during this one. 8) Softly - Not much momentum at the start of this song but Andy comes up front with a hand drum and adds a lot of life. This man has so much energy! He shouldn't be stuck in back. Hightlight: Andy with his drums goes head to head with the main drummer during the latter part of the song. 9) Fly - With the momentum back, Fly just took off. The bass player had some people literally jumping in previous songs but with this one, he had everyone jumping toward the end of the song. An amazing moment. Even me with a sprained ankle was jumping like a mad man! 10) Gorecki - You really can't screw this one up - can you? A beautiful song. Lou really growls toward the end. Beautiful. Bands says goodbye but returns in a few minutes. 11) Cotton Wool - They had to do this one! But it was hard to dance to it because of the fast beats. But everyone in the audience sings along with this song more than any other. 12) God Bless? - This is the only song that I can't remember! I must have been too overloaded. Can someone confirm this before I go crazy?!? 13) Bonfire - A good closing song. Lou really growls on the chorus like the end of Gorecki. And then it's all over... A wonderful show. Short but wonderful. (It would have been interesting to threw in a new song like Ha Ha Ha.) This band can really teach others about energizing a crowd. They have a real stage presence. That's all that I can remember off the top of my head. An incredible night! _________________________________________________________________________ Paul F. Neumann pneumann@uic.edu UIC VR in Medicine Laboratory http://www.sbhis.uic.edu/paul/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 14:04:19 -0500 From: Zoetrope Subject: too much to give a proper name. long. possibly boring. Hello raging blue sea. :::watches rent fuzzy bits wafting::: I'm more of a lurker than major contributer to this list... it's the place I spend with my morning coffee, before walking the dog and watering the plants and getting the rest of my act together. I post upon occasion, I hoping that people may find something that I have to contribute engaging. More often I simply note an artist that I would like to learn more about, or have silent dialogues with myself spawned by a subject here.. usually being occupied with something going on in the physical world, and unable to devote the proper time and thought to the careful responses I prefer in print. I don't mean *careful* in the sense of the current fashion of 'Politically Correct'. I'm relatively suave when it comes to recognizing sarcasm without the smiley faces. I have a sense of humor that favors the absurd, and can run rather black. I am not afraid of Virginia Woolf. I was looking forward to reading the reviews of Ectofest, which I sadly could not attend, due to prior plans (September was a very busy month. I had 8 houseguests coming for Labor Day weekend to prepare for in this very small space on the shore... lots of organizing, cooking, sand to sweep out of corners. After people left, I immediately went to Memphis for a couple weeks. Returned home to a lot of work, and then had to re-organize ...which still isn't finished...) The relevant part... I had a month's worth of ecto-digests to catch up on yesterday . I'd like to put out the suggestion that the next one of these events not be scheduled for a holiday weekend, if it can be helped. Traffic is hellish on most summer weekends in coastal areas, and holidays are the absolute worst time to travel. It would be nice to have some arbitrary time become special in its own right, just because of an ecto happening. While I often disagree with the personal opinions (and occasionally the manner in which they are presented) of some list members, I have always found them interesting and thought provoking additional viewpoints/counterpoints to the many conversations and musical commentaries that I enjoy on ecto. I think that the contributions of those who have decided to leave will be missed; either actively by individuals feeling the loss, or subconciously through some missing dimension to the subjects in reference. I always find it disturbing when I witness sensitivities flaring...(my own sensitivity). I also extremely dislike when personal conflicts are brought into public forums. I realize that these are unavoidable occurrances when there are many good minds in prolonged passionate discussion. "The limits of human potential are glimpsed, if at all, with much greater difficulty than are the outlines of our folly." - Barash ~!@L. I have more to follow, but the dog is whining and I need air. Knocked out by my own long-windedness. There have been several concepts under debate on this list lately that I find really engaging, and I have another long, possibly boring tirade to follow up this one. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 14:28:26 EDT From: FAMarcus@aol.com Subject: Re: too much to give a proper name. long. possibly boring. In a message dated 10/1/99 2:09:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cspacerage@lamere.net writes: << I have more to follow, but the dog is whining and I need air. Knocked out by my own long-windedness. There have been several concepts under debate on this list lately that I find really engaging, and I have another long, possibly boring tirade to follow up this one >> i personally would like to hear more.................................i found it extremely interesting so far. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 15:27:11 -0400 From: Chris Sampson Subject: Re: too much to give a proper name. long. possibly boring. Zoetrope wrote: > > Hello raging blue sea. > :::watches rent fuzzy bits wafting::: Which inspires my own tangent, which I hope clarifies: I don't know that ANYbody here seeks homogeneity, as such concensus is only fleetingly pleasing. I've always known this list to be VERY tolerant... BUT too much of a good thing (including, or maybe, especially *tolerance*) is ultimately counterproductive. I've noticed no concerted efforts to exile ANYbody. Like begets like... and hate, hate, I suppose. The formula's really very simple: * "One" opines * "Two" dissents At this point a debate or other civil discussion can ensue. OR * "One" opines * "Two" dissents: rudely, sarcastically, impulsively. At this point, we achieve critical mass. * "One" retorts. "Three" thru "Twenty" defend "One"... except "Seventeen" who sides with "Two" and, along with "Twenty-One" thru "Thirty-Eight" chooses the "Other Side" (some out of truly held beliefs, some out of the love of a fight, and some for sport... and still others for Goddess-Knows-Why). We eventually digress (it is as axiomatic as it is inevitable)... "Fourteen" wrote this ("No I didn't say 14") and fights break out, now, in the stands... Chaos (but, unfortunately, not the sort for which I care, but we need to take the yin with the yang), and these things go on and, hopefully, burn out, and some are left to lick their wounds or the wounds of others and, suddenly (and, I'm afraid, naively) the question of "community" is raised... "It can't happen here" (quoth Zappa)... But it did and how and people who rely on the list or the community, which, *for them* it engenders (for community is a state of mind and only affected by geography where necessary... not here) and are thrown into crisis ( a support system has failed, and who is to say that they shouldn't have put these eggs in this particular basket... I've been here for nearly 8 years and have found it to be exceedingly friendly and, yes, tolerant... Which leads me back to my point... Too much of a good thing. Tolerance in the face of aggression is passivity... This works for some (and, on occasion, is a spiritual goal to which I aspire), but for a "construct" (in case "list" and "community" are loaded words) such as this, must be tempered with "here, here, enough of THAT", for it serves NOBODY'S purposes for snide, hurtful, accusations to go unchecked... The cretins will have effected "indifference" (this type of tolerance, by another name) and people will not read Ecto, and the only "signal" will be "noise". I find it funny that none who scolded hold any elevated position in this list... maybe a certain deference, but NOBODY who scolded had the actual power to exile the "offensive" from the list... No, instead, those who attacked now cry victim (and, unfortunately, some gullible among us believe them)... and they feel hurt (but, if you go back and read what they said, in what I'm sure they regard as justifiable pique, you find it laced or loaded with patently offensive remarks... WHICH WERE DESIGNED TO ELICIT A RESPONSE). I don't know why... it's a lot of energy to spend for nothing more than a supposedly SAFE argument. I too am mostly a lurker on this list and don't consider anybody on this list to be a bona fide friend (I use the "f" word VERY CAREFULLY)... I've been to some of the early shows and other ectoish events, but, for various reasons don't attend many of the events lately... I've met METH and WOJ, and Mike Curry, and Vickie (at the QEII show in Albany) and Tamar, whom I consider acquaintances (and which designation I don't think any find offensive), except Vickie, who I literally only said HI to and before I joined the list, at that... Still , for others, including Vickie, Ecto is something different, and that is, to varying extents, good or bad for them and is none of my business, and would be my "concern" only to the extent that I considered any here "friends"... Not cold, not indifferent, just humble... Each has a real set of friends, somewhere, from whom each derives spiritual sustenance... It would be inappropriate of me to insert myself into the personal crises anybody here might have, because it would be simply to suit my ego (I'd feel "needed")... Which is a long way around to saying that people MIGHT (MIGHT, mind you) reconsider the importance that Ecto holds for them (both in terms of intensity and nature... What is it to you?... AND How much is it so?)... WHY? Why? Well, in my opinion, it provides perspective. There are arguments, but, think about it... How important ought it be to you, that "One" believes "Somesinger" is exceedingly good (or bad)? Participate in the argument, if you like, vociferously, even... and then let go of it, I'm begging you. Be irritated (by me, even) if you like, but keep it in perspective while you go about your day... and who is Mariska Hargitay, anyway? That is nearly all for now, except to say, in closing... "We must learn to disagree without becoming disagreeable" is not a commandment, but, rather, common sense which we are free to mind or not... I've my own beliefs about that. Regards, Chris ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 17:26:45 -0500 From: Zoetrope Subject: Re: too much to give a proper name. long. possibly boring. Now. More heady intellectual bits that are rife with opinions. Chris, your play-by-play of the shape of hostile argument is so beautiful I want to frame it. I also really like the accuracy of the term "construct". I can't avoid more subreferences... "There's no such thing as a synonym... 'exit' is not 'egres'." - Tom Robbins You've stolen my thunder, but I like the rainfall. Opinions. I am not overly-enamored with the importance of my own opinions. I do not find it necessary to continually voice them. Who am I? Who is anyone? Why do you care? Why don't you? A good argument may change my mind. A bully will not. I do hold the belief that more often than not, a well-informed opinion is more valid than an ignorant one. Yet somehow, in a free society, we all get to vote. ::snip:: >too much of a good thing (including, or maybe, especially *tolerance*) is ultimately counterproductive. I believe that there are the right times and places for certain words and actions. And at certain times and places, such conventions need to be broken in order for progression to be made. I think the example of Lenny Bruce is appropriate... using shocking, unacceptable language to bring abrupt attention to areas that need social change but are never mentioned in polite society, using off-color humor to ameliorate things that bring great pain. And sometimes, that's just rude, innefectual, self-absorbed posturing that could leave you dead on a cold tile floor. Words. Proverb: Words should be weighed, not counted. (good thing, because I've already used my quota) If the careful selection of descriptives were of no import, the Constitution would be just another piece of paper to wipe your ass with, the articles in Semiotexte wouldn't be anywhere near as funny, and this ectodebacle would never have happened. I find it interesting that one of the definitions of 'word' is 'a promise', as in 'giving one's word'. ~!@L. "Among my most prized possessions are the words I have never spoken" - Orson Rega Card ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 19:13:32 EDT From: JudoEWF@aol.com Subject: shameless self-promotion Apologies for the cross-posting, but I'm doing a little shameless self-promotion here. Everybody check out http://www.femmusic.com to see my FEATURE article on the IndieGrrl Detroit show. It's chock full of adjectives and pictures, too. Food for the mind, candy for the eye. ~ Stacy, T.J.B. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 22:07:14 -0400 From: Michael Curry Subject: RE: Ectofest At 12:46 AM 10/1/99 -0500, There is no spoon wrote: >But when many old timers and new timers alike argued >(then and now) that "Ecto" is just a word, and it's ridiculous >(even "malicious" and flame-baiting) for anyone to dare to >question its use by list members for a *public* event, >benefitting their *own* chosen charities, rather than >Happy's or the result of a vote from the list, and that >there's no reason whatsoever that the list members >should have a say in the process, then that tells me that >Ecto is no longer a community. It's just a really cool mailing >list that happens to use the word, but the word itself has >little meaning other than being the name of an album, and >a song, and, oh yeah, this mailing list. Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. To me this still seems like a community. When people lined up to defend Chuck and Meredith's efforts, even though some of them also said that they thought Charley had a point, that seemed like the reaction of a community to me. When people travelled from all over to Danbury, CT to attend Ectofest, that seemed like a community as well. I think that those who were at the Ectofest can also attest to the sense of community there. >Charley loved this list. At least, until he fought for the >"community" and got flamed to a crisp for his concern. >Well, why should he care if no one else does? Why should >anybody? I'll start this part of things off with a disclaimer, which is that (in case anyone didn't realize this) I've never much liked Charley, so I'm probably a bit biased where he is concerned. Whatever Charley may have meant, he managed to express himself on this issue in a manner that was a fine blend of arrogance, sarcasm and petty sniping, and I think that any backlash he got for expressing his views was based much more on the way he chose to express them (especially in his flamed-filled final posts) than on the underlying points themselves. Finally, I think that portraying all of those who didn't agree with Charley (and you) on the issue of naming Ectofest as somehow not caring about the ecto community is... well... wrong. Mike np: Tori Amos -- To Venus and Back ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 22:27:20 EDT From: FAMarcus@aol.com Subject: Re: Ectofest In a message dated 10/1/99 10:12:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mcurry@io.com writes: << When people lined up to defend Chuck and Meredith's efforts, even though some of them also said that they thought Charley had a point, that seemed like the reaction of a community to me. When people travelled from all over to Danbury, CT to attend Ectofest, that seemed like a community as well. I think that those who were at the Ectofest can also attest to the sense of community there. >> i believe the old adage that actions speak louder than words rings true here ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V5 #329 **************************