From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V5 #72 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Saturday, February 27 1999 Volume 05 : Number 072 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: wyrd sisters ["Miller, John P" ] Re: Wyrd Sisters ["Derrick Belbas" ] Another lurker revealed... ["Elina Sorva" ] Re: Male Vocalist Recommendation ["Jeffrey Hanson" ] Stina Nordentstam's new album ["Tim Finney" ] Re: Peter & Wendy [Riphug@aol.com] Joy Eden Harrison "Unspoken" & various related info [ABershaw@aol.com] Re: straight from the horse's mouth [Bill Mazur ] Re: straight from the horse's mouth [Andrew Fries ] Re: straight from the horse's mouth [Bill Mazur ] Re: Compilation update [Bill Mazur ] Kate News? [Sue Fechner ] Re: Richard Shindell (was Re: Male Vocalist Recommendation) [Bill Mazur <] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:58:44 -0800 From: "Miller, John P" Subject: RE: wyrd sisters Neal Copperman asked about the Wyrd Sisters: >Anyway, I actually started writing this cause one of the artists being in >the main daytime showcases (that I can't go to) is the Wyrd SIsters. A >friend who joined me in the early evening to scoop up fliers had heard >them and thought they were wonderful. She's really eager to get ahold of >some of their discs, but I couldn't find any places on-line that carried >them. (I did only a cursory search.) Any suggestions? The Wyrd Sisters have three releases: 1. "Leave a Little Light" cassette only This is their first release and they have planned to stop manufacturing it, except that folks keep asking for it... available online (or mail-order) from their Canadian distributor, Festival Distribution, at: 2. "Inside The Dreaming" CD and cassette Their second release, produced by DB Benedictson (Ferron), nominated for a JUNO award, available online and mail-order from 'Festival' (URL above) and online/mail-order from 'Ladyslipper': 3. "Raw Voice" CD and cassette Their most recent release, also nominated for a JUNO award, available from same sources as above. John Miller ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:52:38 -0000 From: "Derrick Belbas" Subject: Re: Wyrd Sisters Hi. Those Wyrd Sisters are from Winnipeg, where I'm at. They sing a LOT around town here, although I've only seen maybe ten minutes of a performance. But I'll watch for them, and find out what's available for product. Another little outfit to watch for is a duo called Strange Angels, also from Winnipeg. They seem to travel in the same circles as the Wyrd Sisters, too. Those Angels girls are fabulous song-writers, and I highly recommend their only CD to all. Further, I strongly suspect there may be some audience recordings available for just the right trade-bait. Derrick unrelated: desperately seeking Over the Rhine material. np: the neighbour's cordless phone. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:32:05 PST From: "Elina Sorva" Subject: Another lurker revealed... Hi all! I've been a lurker for quite a while, but I decided it's time for me to introduce myself...My name is Elina, I'm a 20-year-old student from Helsinki, Finland. I'm the sister of Juha, who posts every once in a while...he's the one who spread the Happy News to me...:) The reason I didn't introduce myself earlier is that I didn't think of myself as really "ecto".....I'm a Queen fan first and foremost, and I felt I couldn't _possibly_ be taken seriously here if I admitted that...Seeing the names Queen, Freddie and Brian mentioned here a few times in the fav lists made me change my mind...so thanks to everyone of you who mentioned them! I've already made a bunch of musical "discoveries" thanks to you guys...Susan McKeown, Sarah Slean and Caveman Shoestore are the first ones to come to mind. I'm not all that heavily into Happy's stuff, though I greatly admire her musicianship (and that Voice of hers!!!), but maybe as time goes by my taste will improve... I also have a little question for you...Does anyone know ANYTHING about a British singer/pianist/composer called ERROLLYN WALLEN? I saw her live in London about four years ago and have been trying to find some information ever since......Any odd bit of info will be greatly appreciated! Thanks! Elina ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:08:14 -0700 From: "Jeffrey Hanson" Subject: Re: Male Vocalist Recommendation >Jeff, > > >Can you please tell me a little bit more about Richard Shindell. The >Real Audio clips that I have heard sound like he is in the folk/country >vein. How would you describe his voice and his music? What recording of >his would you recommend and why? I don't have a whole lot to add to Ofer Inbar's description of Richard-- other than agreeing with pretty much everything he said. He's got a really pleasant voice that is capable of expressing quite a bit of emotion without ever getting overly-emotive ( a trait I love in females, but can really turn me off when males try it.) He's also a very accomplished guitar player, but the thing I like best about him, is that he's never flashy. His arrangements are always perfect, but never excessive--quite like his voice. This allows his songwriting to really shine--he writes about all kinds of common things but does it in a manner that avoids cliches. I highly recommend him. I have all 3 of his solo discs, and the Cry, Cry, Cry compilation and there are great tracks on them all. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:12:41 EST From: ABershaw@aol.com Subject: New Cindy Lee Berryhill CD & Living Room Content Hi all, I just sent this to the Jewel list but it also has Ecto-specific content & will be of major interest to all Cindy Lee Berryhill fans here. Thanks, Alan ___________________________________________________ As many of you are already well aware, the past two years of Living Room Tour "house concerts" have been quite an experience featuring an ever growing list of talent. Thankfully, other lists such as Ecto are also "LRT active" now and hosting intimate concerts at subscribers homes. It's a GREAT THING & I hope the LRT concept spreads everywhere eventually. Several EDAs wrote me recently asking if anything is planned for summer 1999 regarding the LRT. At the moment nothing is in progress but I'd sure like to see it happen again. We have a nice little NorthEastern USA EDA host network now, so thats handy. While I was in San Diego last week, I mentioned the LRT to local favorites Gregory Page & Frank Lee Drennen (aka The Hatchet Brothers). They seemed open to the idea so thats a possibility. Now onto the reason I'm actually writing. A wonderful piece of the Living Room Tour has just been officially released on CD by Griffith Park Records in the form of Cindy Lee Berryhill's new album titled "Living Room 16". Titled as such as it was the 16th gig on the now legendary LRT recorded in San Francisco on January 17th, 1998. This particular gig was notable as it was a one off duo gig where CLB was augmented by the incredible "Garage Orchestra" album cellist Renata Bratt. The CD features 11 live tracks including several new CLB tunes along with extended spontaneous versions of older material including an almost 11 minute long "UFO Suite"! The music is inspired & the recording captures the living room ambience. It was recorded by strategically placing microphones around the room as well as on the musicians direct to ADAT (8 track digital) & remixed to stereo. I should also mention that the liner notes recognize the Jewel, Ecto & Audities lists as the inspiration behind this touring concept & album. The CD will soon be available in some US stores & will also have European distribution in stores, but why wait? There are currently 500 autographed & numbered limited edition copies available directly from the following webpage on CLB's website: http://www.twomp.com/livingroom16/ There's online ordering information (& more info in general) there. Also check out CLB's Tearaway Page at: http://www.mwpsoft.com/clb/index.htm If you're a CLB fan already, you'll love this CD & if you're curious what the LRT's were like, here's a wonderful opportunity to experience it vicariously through the music & hilarity digitally captured on "Living Room 16". This and Joy Eden Harrison's new CD "Unspoken" (which CLB produced by the way) are on heavy rotation here! My next post will be about Joy's CD ordering info & current tour of the SouthWest USA. I highly recommend checking into both these artists if youre not already hip to them. Both are creating wonderfully unique totally infectious music & are well worth your attention. MrBB ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:36:01 -0500 (EST) From: "Donald G. Keller" Subject: KY, Keyboardist While we're discussing keyboardists, let me put in a word for Kristeen Young. She's a bit of a banger, but I think that her technique is at least very good; and she has an excellent composer's ear for layering keyboard colors (not just piano), and for acrobatic quick cuts between strongly contrasting textures. And no fear of eccentric ideas. (We're leaving aside her highly mannered vocals for the nonce.) To play the kinds of things she writes, live, with no sense of strain, may not demand a virtuoso, but it's no mean feat. And speaking of bangers, what's wrong with block chords? Mussorgsky, Rachmaninoff, Stravinsky, Bartok... Just a different style from rippling rubato arpeggios. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:42:03 +1100 From: "Tim Finney" Subject: Stina Nordentstam's new album I don't believe that it has been mentioned at *all* on Ecto over the past few months, but I'd like to add another album of 1998 to my list of great 1998 albums. Stina Nordenstam's cover album "People Are Strange" is a brilliant, brilliant album which everybody here should buy before it most likely disappears. The problem with most cover albums, IMHO, is that the artist tries to do homage to the song's original nature, but in their own nature, which means the actual song is a diluted composition of both artist's strengths and weaknesses. Stina however, like Tori, feels no commitment to the original product and, again like Tori, keeps pushing for the emotionally harrowing core of the song in any way she knows how. Partly because her vocals and music are so distinctive, and partly because she completely deconstructs all of these songs, this can be regarded as a wholly new Stina album. Anyone who has "Dynamite" will have a good idea of what to expect from this album, but there are many surprises. Where "Dynamite" was quite focused musically (ingredients: one scratchy guitar, one moaning bass, one lumbering drum track, a handful of muffled percussion loops, one string quartet, three grams of oboe and a pinch of keyboards), "People Are Strange" takes the same sense of fear and ennervation and applies it to a variety of different musical landscapes. The first song, "Sailing" (made famous by Rod Stewart) is a harshly recorded, simple, blocky piano number whose uncomfortable dissonance is only alleviated by splashes of strings and woodwind. "Purple Rain" (Prince) is almost slowburning trip-hop, Stina singing softly over slow programmed beats which sounds as if they're disintegrating. "Swallow Strings" is an instrumental break of shimmering, whooping violins. The title track is just a spare, reflective guitar strum (sort of like Cat Power), but with unsettling harmonies which make it closer to the original intention of the song than even The Doors could create. "Lonesome Road" takes this further, using a whooshing drum loop, a buzzing bass and some disturbing brass apparantly taken from a western movie. Even the songs that are reminiscent of "Dynamite" show further growth and diversity, so while "I Dream Of Jeannie" (actually an English folk song) is musically and vocally similar to the title track from the last album, it also rocks more consisely and deliberately than anything Stina's done before. The one new song, "Come To Me", hovers in on the verge of a dream in a similar way to "This Time, John", but is even more harrowingly quiet, consisting of recorded traffic, keyboard washes played backwards (weird) and what sounds like an Indian snake-charmer's flute. It doesn't have a tune really, but that's not the point. My two favourites at the moment though, are the two Leonard Cohen covers, "Bird On A Wire" and "I Came So Far For Beauty." The first is solemn and ghostly (including, of course, actual birds), with Stina's multi-tracked vocals dominating to the point where it sounds more like the dark songs from "Memories Of A Colour" than anything from the last two albums. At the end Stina suddenly breaks into circular harmonies which remind me of the circus for some unknown reason. The second starts off quite straightforwardly, Stina simply singing over a single guitar line, but soon builds up urgently until it explodes, with driving guitars and wailing keyboards. It is probably the harshest thing Stina's done, but it's also very beautiful. Anyone who likes Stina's work should not hesitate in snapping it up. It's such an unlikely project that I can't see it remaining in production for long. Oh, another reason to get it is the wonderful design of the cd case (red) and booklet, which contains stylised photographs of Stina which are as always utterly disturbing, and a short explanation of each song which usually has nothing to do with the song itself. For example, for I Came So Far For Beauty she writes "It was your birthday and you asked if I was a lesbian and although we were all drunk, the English were being very English and looked away, I said "let's go out and fight". They kept asking you about it. How straightforward we are." Regards, Tim ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:44:25 EST From: Riphug@aol.com Subject: Re: Peter & Wendy In a message dated 2/26/99 4:19:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, neal@swcp.com writes: << I owe a ton of reviews, plus comments on Peter & Wendy in Berkeley too, though I don't have time for that at the moment. >> Hey, Neal ;-) Quick question on Peter & Wendy.......is Mary Fahl still in that production? Jill :D ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:12:19 EST From: ABershaw@aol.com Subject: Joy Eden Harrison "Unspoken" & various related info Hi again, Here's the Joy Eden Harrison info I promised earlier: 'Unspoken' is Joy's long awaited second CD released on Astarte Records. Building on her first album, Joy's orginal take on vintage '30's jazz, "Unspoken" features a far greater range of musical expression and texture. Staying true to her Jazz roots but blending some pop overtones into the mix has really allowed Joy to take a giant leap forward in my opinion. These new recordings have captivated my attention for months now & continue to fascinate me after many repeated listenings. It's by far my favorite release so far this year & has the kind of depth that I know I'll still enjoy many years from now. But don't take my word for it. Go to www.joyedenharrison.com & listen to some of it for yourself! How you ask? The new album can be found, sampled, and advance purchased off her website at www.joyedenharrison.com. Joy is also touring the country with CD Release concerts throughout the year so keep checking back at her website for new tour dates. She's now on the west coast & will be performing quite a bit. The current tour scedule includes several California shows with the studio band in March & a Living Room gig is scheduled for Phoenix. On March 13th, Java Joe's in San Diego will host Joy's "official release day" concert. Joy's current schedule follows below. Check out these shows! You can thank me later. ;-) Also, you can join a news-only list for Joy at NewsJEH@aol.com. This list sends out updates every two weeks including new tour dates, radio shows interviews, and articles. There's also a "new nieghbor list" on the smoe server for discussion about Joy & her music. To join it e-mail Candle- request@smoe.org with only the word "subscribe" in the body of the e-mail. It's not begun yet but is functioning now. When her new album gets heard, this list will surely grow. OK. Here's the most current "Unspoken" Tour dates for Joy & you can update yourself on Joy at any time by visiting her site. All the best, Alan JOY EDEN HARRISON - Current Schedule: March 2 - Tuesday Santa Barbara, California Soho's 8-8:30pm $10 1221 State Street (805)962-7776 More Info: Opening for Karen Savoca March 4 - Thursday King City, California Long Branch Saloon Restaurant No Cover 625 Division (831)385-1224 March 5 & 6 - Friday & Saturday Guernville, California Main Street Station 8-10pm $4 16280 Main Street (707)869-0500 March 7 - Sunday San Francisco, California Hotel Utah 8:00pm $4 500 4th Street (415)421-8308 with band and Renatta Bratt on cello Opening Act: Steve Harris March 10 Wednesday Cambria, California Cambria Pine Lodge 8:30pm 2905 Burton Drive (805)927-4200 March 12 Friday Los Angeles, California Moon Dog Cafe 9-10pm $5.00 7160 Melrose (323)936-4604 March 13 Saturday (CD Release Concert) San Diego, California Java Joe's 9:00pm $5 4994 Newport Ave. (619)523-0356 March 25 Thursday Taos, New Mexico Cafe Tazza 8:00pm 122 Kit Carson (505)758-8706 March 26 Friday Santa Fe, New Mexico House Concert for more information contact Justduff@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:30:08 -0800 From: Bill Mazur Subject: Re: straight from the horse's mouth John, First off, before I go any further, I want to tell you that I truly appreciate and respect the opinions that you have expressed. Some of your views I agree with and some of them I don't. I'm sure that you and others may feel the same way about the viewpoints that I have expressed. I can't speak for the other people that have posted on this thread, but I personally am sorry that you feel that I have been petty in my comments. It appears to me that I am being included in the group that you refer to as being "petty as all y'all". I assume this because you mention my name in your most current post. That was decidedly not my intention. I honestly thought that we were all just having a lively discussion with differing opinions. Please accept my sincere apology if I have in any way offended or upset you with any of my comments. That being said, I would like to try my best to further explain why the comments that Paul Kim and Andrew Fries struck a positive chord within in me. I commented on them for that reason. Paul, I am assuming, is an accomplished musician. I think that this is a fair assumption because it is relatively, if not quite, difficult to get into the Berklee School of Music. As far as I know, you have to have a very good degree of capability as a musician and instrumentalist to be accepted into that school (Paul, am I correct here?). Paul appears to be very knowledgeable about music theory. For some of these reasons mentioned, I trust his judgement and opinions in relation to this discussion. Andrew Fries admits that he doesn't understand music theory and doesn't care to know about it. He does know that he appreciates music that moves him. From my perspective, I thought it was interesting that they both made a very similar point about the power of letting a single note or chord speak in a way to make the universe cry. To them and to me that is an element of virtuosity. Are we correct, I don't know? My view of a virtuoso is someone that is a master at what they do with their artistic tools and how they use those tools to express their art. This can apply to many art forms, but I think of it in terms of music. To me a virtuoso musician has command of their instrument and can, when appropriate, play technically demanding passages. They can also play one chord or one note to make other human beings and perhaps even the universe cry. My view of good art is that it allows the artist to honesty express himself or herself. It allows them to communicate to and touch, in some way, their fellow humans. To what extent they are able to touch others is where subjectivity comes in. I will use a cliché here: "One man's trash is another man's treasure". I hope that I have better explained where I was coming from here. BTW John, I think that you express yourself in a unique and enjoyable way. You are, at times, controversial and you do seem to like stirring things up a bit. I certainly don't think that you are being an a##!%$*e by doing that though. For what it's worth, I personally think that is fine as long as it is done civilly. Best Regards, Bill ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:52:52 +1100 From: Andrew Fries Subject: Re: straight from the horse's mouth In a message "straight from the horse's mouth" on 26/Feb/1999 02:36:12 John Drummond says: > This ties in (in a rather fortuitous way, for my argument) to the idea > I posited of virtuosity versus presence... I'll admit that Andrew did > indeed use words effectively in attacking my idea; however, and this > is where it does get a bit gratuitously mean, that doesn't indicate > any real level of communication on his part. Is this a flame war yet? I didn't see it as a flame war, nor was my statement intended as an attack. I do disagree with you, and that's what I said. I never expressed any doubt about your right to express your views, I simply said that I disagree. I have a different opinion and I said so, since this list relies on exchange of opinions for its existence. You are welcome to your opinion by all means, especially since yours is at least thought-out while I'll admit mine is largely emotional. > Andrew was skilled with twisting my words, but didn't put anything pointier > than a thimble behind them. It was virtuosity, not presence. Yeah, technical skill as such simply does not count for that much. That was basically what I was trying to say, and I'll even admit that it might not be totally relevant to the point you were making... I'm not sure what the dictionary definition of the word "virtuoso" is, and at this point I don't really want to know. If I went off on a tangent, so be it. > In the future, I'll avoid opening my big yap in the first place. I > suppose it's too much to ask that I could speak my mind in whatever > offensive way I choose; [snip...] > I'm not sorry if anybody's feelings were hurt, > since mine were hurt enough that I felt I had to leap to the defense > of what I consider good sense and a committment to preventing idiocy > from overriding all of us. You're keen to dish it out - fair enough but then you might want to work on the receiving side just a bit... I for one hope you'll continue to express your opinions in any way you see fit, as long as you allow me to comment on them in my own style. I assure you that no offence was intended and none was taken. - ------------------------------------------------------ The world is divided into good people and bad people. The good ones sleep better, while the bad ones enjoy the waking hours much more. - ------ http://www.zip.com.au/~afries/hall.html ------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:15:51 -0800 From: Bill Mazur Subject: Re: straight from the horse's mouth Neil K. Guy wrote: > > At 2:36 AM -0800 2/26/99, John Drummond wrote: > > > [...] As a matter of fact, I think I > >rather serve a unique place on Ecto as the Token Asshole. It's good > >to have the curmudgeon on the list who won't hesitate to holler at > >everybody and present different opinions beyond those of niceness, > >herbal tea, justice for all, and the Democratic Party, so perhaps I'm > >actually useful to y'all. [...] blah blah blah > > One of the great things about Ecto, and one of the main reasons I suspect > many of us subscribe to this list, is that people generally *choose not* > to be assholes. Strong opinions, yes. Deliberately inflammatory shit, no. > > There's no shortage of asshole-laden lists and groups out there. The world > is full of them. So, personally, I think it's terrific that there's this > small outpost of civility on the Net. Long may it last. > > - Neil K. Amen Neil K.!!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:39:30 -0800 From: Bill Mazur Subject: Re: Compilation update Foghorn J Fornorn wrote: > > Here's the list of contributors I've received so far: > > Jessica Weiser [Songbird22@aol.com] > John Drummond [johnxxiii@yahoo.com] > Heather Russell [hrussell@bellsouth.net] > Joseph S. Zitt [jzitt@humansystems.com] 5:00 > Holly J Tominack [htominack@erols.com] "Stimulous Bound" > Bill Mazur [wpm@value.net] and Katheleen Michaels 10:30 > Dirk Kastens [Dirk.Kastens@rz.uni-osnabrueck.de] 6:00 > Kim Justice [justicek@home.com] > > Of those who have given me a hint of their intent, it ranges from existing > demos/tracks, new tracks yet to be recorded, original material and covers of > Happy's or other's material. I am presuming no one has a problem with any of > these categories. After all, most have programming functions on your cd > players, right? I think that this is excellent! There will be some really good variety on this disc. > Also, if time permits and no one objects, I could probably contribute a > track or two on behalf of my friends Denise and Dawn (aka Sweeter Than > Wine), who are little known outside of Connecticut (and by no means a > household name within!). Sounds fine to me! > I am not a musician nor an artist, I just do computer stuff. Still looking > for sleeve art volunteers. Don't make me attempt something truly creative, > people could get hurt! Fog you may have missed this in Cyoakha's post that was unrelated to the Compilation posts: Also to Foghorn re: ecto comp cd, I'd love to get involved, add my music and art skills...have produced or co-produced 6 albums now. Worked with graphic folk but did all the art, have lots (I'm a photographer also as well as singer) So contact me if interested. cyoakha Land of the Blind 3439 NE Sandy Blvd., Suite 266 Portland, Oregon USA (503) 321-5093 email lanblind@teleport.com I personally really like her vocal work with Land of the Blind. I would love to see some of her material on this compilation. Cy appears to have other artistic talents that she is offering as well. I want to "Thank You" for overseeing this project. I am very pleased with how your are approaching it. Take care, Bill ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 04:55:18 "GMT" From: Sue Fechner Subject: Kate News? This may well be subtitled "Making a fool of myself by mentioning old news". I've been out of circulation for awhile and still haven't caught up on my email so I don't know if this is exactly news or not - but anyway... Received a letter from a friend in the UK the other day - he had included a news clipping which said, "Kate Bush has amazingly scrapped the concept album she has been working on for *five years* to start a carrer writing plays." Don't know how much truth is in it as it came from a Sunday tabloid and it may even be ancient news but hey, I seem to be good at the Retro angle. My opinion? Well, I'll wait until I find out if I'm actually up to speed in regards to what's happening in the wonderful world of music. Sue n.p. veda hille - spine [thanks Michael] n.r. "Earthquake Weather" - Tim Powers Sue Fechner http://www.homestead.com/Wassailing/ - - "Some people have things written all over their faces; the big guy had a couple of words misspelled in crayon on his." - Jonathan Lethem - "Gun With Occasional Music" __________________________________________________________________ Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au/ Save money and get stuff free! Join the START Money.Saver Club! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:24:20 -0800 From: Bill Mazur Subject: Re: Richard Shindell (was Re: Male Vocalist Recommendation) Ofer Inbar wrote: > > This question was addressed to Jeff, but since I brought up Richard > Shindell I'll take it... > > Bill Mazur writes: > > Can you please tell me a little bit more about Richard Shindell. The > > Real Audio clips that I have heard sound like he is in the folk/country > > vein. How would you describe his voice and his music? What recording of > > his would you recommend and why? Cos, Thanks very much for your response! My question was actually addressed to Jeff and any other Ectophile that wanted to chime in. I appreciate you doing so. I actually discovered your post and Meth's post a little further down the line in my Inbox last night. That was after I already fired off the post with the question on Richard. Actually the posts from you and Meth partially answered my question. The information that you posted today, along with Jeff and Kevin was very informative. I will have to explore this a bit further. Thanks, Bill ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V5 #72 *************************