From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V4 #406 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Thursday, November 19 1998 Volume 04 : Number 406 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: felicity bush [jason and jill ] re: straight to the point [J Wermont ] Re: straight to the point ["Robert Lovejoy" ] a punny thing [kerry white ] help with cd [Mark Lowry ] Re: about JEWEL and that video [Andrew Fries ] Re: help with cd ["Jeffrey C. Burka" ] Re: help with cd [Mark Lowry ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 20:54:50 -0500 (EST) From: jason and jill Subject: Re: felicity bush > scene. The scene involved a girl who had just been raped by her boyfriend > and he is unaware (or feigning unawareness) of this, while she is faced > with reporting him and him probably being expelled from NYU. What does > this have to do with a song about how powerless a father feels when his > wife is giving birth?!! I replayed it a couple of times and tried to make "I know you have a lot of life in you yet, I know you have a lot of strength left" or whatever the line is. Some of the song's lines, minus the context of the rest of the song, apply and whoever puts the music together must have been thinking of that section. When I first heard it starting I figured that was the part they wanted to use, and also wondered what the hell the full the song had to do with the scene. A good example of the show--well meaning, but not quite altogether. Jason ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 18:46:00 -0800 (PST) From: J Wermont Subject: re: straight to the point Oh, boy - a Discussion! :) Neile wrote: > Well, as someone who prefers what I consider allusive, connotative > lyrics as opposed to what I consider denotative, didactic lyrics, > I'm not sure where I fall here. I don't think it has to be either/or, though. I'm not saying that lyrics have to be didactic to be clear. I'm just talking about a songwriter being clear about what s/he is talking about. And that can certainly be done with allusive and connotative imagery. A song - or any piece of creative writing, really - that has no imagery, no metaphors or examples, nothing to bring the ideas in the song alive isn't going evoke much emotion. At the same time, a song containing a swirl of seemingly unconnected thoughts, phrases, and images might have a pretty turn of phrase here and there, but it doesn't really tell me anything. I need an underpinning of linear narrative, of exposition, the what, where and why, to connect to what the artist is actually saying - to know why I should care. > And it depends so much on what you mean by clarity. I'm generally in > favour of clarity, but sometimes a messy allusiveness can knock the > top off the bottle of my emotions in a way that straightforwardness > never could. Maybe this is just a difference in taste, or in the way we approach words. Perhaps you're just more right-brained than I am. I like to understand something rationally or else I can't access the emotion. (At least through the words alone. When it comes to songs, I don't need words to get the emotion - the music does that. That's where my right-brained reactions come in. But when I'm focusing on words - and this certainly applies to poetry and prose since there's usually no music with them - I'm doing it in a rational and linear way.) > Obscurity isn't the point--creating an emotional impression is. I guess when I don't know the story, or the intent, behind the impressions, then they just seem pointless to me, and the emotional impression is lost on me. > Most often denotative language is abstract I don't think so at all! In fact, just the opposite! I find allusive language (by itself, without direct language to anchor it) to be abstract and elusive, whereas concrete language feels real to me, puts me right there in the middle of the artist's experience. > I definitely agree with this--but for me part of the work is > avoiding being didactic. Sure, but I'm not talking about preaching. I'm just talking about telling the story, giving the facts. > Tell me you're broken-hearted and I say so what. But show me you're > broken-hearted, share with me what it feels like, and I'm with you > all the way. I want and need both in a piece of writing. Just being told "I'm broken-hearted" is boring, I agree. But getting only impressionistic images of broken-heartedness isn't enough, either, if it doesn't make it clear what the person is broken-hearted *about* - what happened, why they feel all that pain. For example, in an allusive song about heartbreak, I may get that the person is feeling unhappy - but why? Maybe it's about a lost relationship, but for all I know, they could be mourning the job they just got laid off from, or the use of their legs which they just lost in a car accident - anything that can bring up pain and loss. If I don't know why the emotions are there, I can't care about them. I know some people really love that ambiguity, but what I was trying to say in my last post is that I do not like it particularly, and I really hate it when people who do like it act like they're superior. Not that you're doing that here. But that was the real point of my post, anyway - not that "clear" is necessarily better than "evocative," but that they are just different ways of appreciating language. And I was glad when Andrew said that he appreciated straightforwardness in song lyrics, because it's kind of unfashionable to admit that. > One of the first lessons they teach you in any fiction or poetry > writing class, though I don't necessarily think this is considered > in songwriting, is that showing is far more effective than telling. I want to be shown feelings in writing, too, but I don't want *just* to be shown feeling - I want to know the details, too. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of emotion floating around, not tied to anything concrete that I can relate to. Joyce ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 23:08:22 -0500 From: "Robert Lovejoy" Subject: Re: straight to the point Hi all, Interesting thread, this. For me, words and music combine in a multitude of ways. There are songs I've heard in my life that are very literal, like "In My Life", by the Beatles, which I love, and Songs that are obscure as hell (how about "I Am The Walrus" by those same folks) which I also love. I can think of many artists who also write both types of lyric, and there's even a middle ground (say "partially obscure story-telling" like Enya's "Exile" or Happy's "Summer"). My point is, it's not all black and white, and some lyrics work better than others. The fit of the melody to the words is vital. And everyone's mileage varies! There is room for both schools of thought. I agree with Joyce that it's annoying when a proponent of a particular school derides another school. And I agree with Neile that preachy didacticism passing for clarity does not make for inspired lyrics. The creative process is complicated enough without trying to analyze it! I thrill to the power of words, and when the God-given gift of music is added, the resulting synergy can be very powerful. It is the mark of an artist's success how well they convey their thoughts and concerns to their audience via this powerful combination. There is a time and place for every kind of lyric. Where does "Louie Louie" fit in the Grand Scheme of Things? Talk about a successful song! Then there are the songwriter-poets like Leonard Cohen, Paul Simon, Bob Dylan - they've achieved great success as well. Sometimes I need complexity, sometimes I need simplicity, often I need both, and at any time I can find a song to fit my mood. Sometimes I just read, sometimes I listen to orchestral music. The best thing about life is its variety. Bob Lovejoy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 22:33:50 -0600 (CST) From: kerry white Subject: a punny thing Hi, Crossword puzzles play w/ 1's mind. This example is >very< punny. A four letter word for "globe plotter". Think very hard before scrolling down to the answer. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Iago. (for those who are missing background info: he talked/tricked Othello into beating his innocent wife to death. Shakespeare showed at the Globe theatre.) OWWWWW! Don't kick me so hard! bye, (won't be at this address til Sat. always at webtv.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 22:02:11 -0600 From: Mark Lowry Subject: help with cd Hi all, I'm making a CD as a birthday present for a friend. It's an annual thing I do (of course the format was cassette before the CDR came along). Each year I come up with a theme. This year it's "guest vocals," meaning a song by an artist in which another artist joins in on the vocals. At least one of the artists should be of Ecto nature, and both artists have to input vocals (so something like Evelyn Glennie + Bjork would be out). I've got a few things in mind, among them: Catherine Wheel + Tanya Donnelly = Judy Staring at the Sun Paula Cole + Peter Gabriel = Hush, Hush, Hush. The The + Sinead O’Connor = Kingdom of Rain Peter Gabriel + Kate Bush = Don’t Give Up Kristin Hersh + Michael Stipe = Your Ghost Robert Earl Keen + Margo Timmins = Then Came Lo Mein Nick Cave + PJ Harvey = Henry Lee Indigo Girls + Michael Stipe = Kid Fears Tricky + PJ Harvey = Broken Homes have a few others ... but suddenly I'm drawing a blank. Anyone have any other suggestions? Mark n.p. Edward Ka-Spel _The Blue Room_ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 16:18:08 +1100 From: Andrew Fries Subject: Re: about JEWEL and that video In a message "about JEWEL and that video" on 18/Nov/1998 01:09:31 irvin lin says: > i would also like to comment on the fact that i don't think people here > dislike jewel because of the hype surrounding her or the > overcommercialization of her. No, it's not quite as simple as that. Though I sometimes think that hype and overcommercialisation might actually be fairly valid reasons for eventually coming to dislike an artist... let's face it, it's very hard to retain the same level of enthusiasm for the same song blaring at you from every direction only to later return as a remix, and then a cover and then a bonus edition with additional live version etc etc... It may not be entirely artists' fault that the entertainment machine milks them (and us, the public) for all they are worth but then they are not *totally* blameless either. There are other ways and Ani DiFranco whom Irvin mentions in his post is a prime example of that, too. But I freely admit that once an artist "makes it" something in my perception does change - it's the response that might bring with it the accusations of being snobbish, or I might be told that my problem is that I "no longer feel the part of the scene". Does that sound familiar? Perhaps even that might be true and would it really be so terrible? But another more charitable but still true way of putting this is that I no longer feel the part of the process: of creation, of development... When you come into the venue and the artists wave at you from the stage because they know you, it just means so much more than the perfunctory "you've been a great audience - thank you Sydney... errr .. or is it Melbourne?" Doesn't it? And note that I'm not accusing those more popular artists - of course I realise it *can't* be the same. All I'm saying is that I naturally gravitate towards one, not the other. I like to be where I feel I make some difference. Am I the only one who'd feel this way? I suspect not, in fact I seem to remember Meredith speak out in the similar vein (but much more eloquently) a while back... What I said in my post was: "I still think that it's unfortunate that she ended up being picked for stardom because if it wasn't for that she'd still be getting a lot better reviews here than she currently does." That was meant not only as a (mild) rebuke - mild because I know I'm not always blameless myself - but also the statement of the fact that because she is so much in the spotlight we are more demanding than we would be of someone playing at the corner coffee shop and living in her van. And why not? That is how it should be. But it's also a pity in her case, because I think that Jewel has been catapulted way beyond where she should be... > she was fun. she use to exuded personality, wit, she believed in > what she wrote, yet she never really took herself too seroiusly. > despite how overly earnest and overly simplified everything she said > was, she would makes comments like "kinda dorky but..."(end of the live > version of I'M SENSITIVE from SAVE THE LINOLEUM). she would write a song > in the afternoon and then she would perform it in all it's silliness > later that night. she wasn't earthshattering. she wasn't someone who > would change my life. but she was someone who i enjoyed. and who enjoyed > herself. in short she was a real person. Exactly. And she should've been allowed to remain there and then we'd probably appreciate her for what she does have to offer, rather than expect something that would in our eyes justify this big deal around her. That's what I meant. Perhaps because that's how I approached her new CD I liked what I heard. Also, I suspect my tolerance for fluff is higher than Irvin's :) __________________________________________________ "What the public wants is called politically unrealistic.Translated into English, that means power and privilege are opposed to it. " Noam Chomsky http://www.zip.com.au/~afries/hall.html __________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 00:29:51 -0500 From: "Jeffrey C. Burka" Subject: Re: help with cd Mark Lowry sez: > I'm making a CD as a birthday present for a friend. [...] > Catherine Wheel + Tanya Donnelly = Judy Staring at the Sun > Paula Cole + Peter Gabriel = Hush, Hush, Hush. > The The + Sinead O’Connor = Kingdom of Rain > Peter Gabriel + Kate Bush = Don’t Give Up > Kristin Hersh + Michael Stipe = Your Ghost > Robert Earl Keen + Margo Timmins = Then Came Lo Mein > Nick Cave + PJ Harvey = Henry Lee > Indigo Girls + Michael Stipe = Kid Fears > Tricky + PJ Harvey = Broken Homes > > have a few others ... but suddenly I'm drawing a blank. Anyone have any > other suggestions? You didn't specify whether or not you were willing to repeat folks so some of these will be duplicates to one degree or another: "The Seer" -- Big Country with KaTe (my favorite KaTe guest appearance!) "Sister and Brother" -- Midge Ure with KaTe "Blood of Eden" -- Peter Gabriel & Sinead O'Connor "Fairytale of New York" -- Kirsty MacColl & The Pogues "The Long Voyage" -- Suzanne Vega & John Cale / Hector Zazou "I'll Strangle You" -- Anneli Drecker & Gerard Depardieu / Hector Zazou "Running Away" -- Peter Himmelman & Karen Peris "Never Get Old" -- Sinead O'Connor & Enya jeff np: _a big world of fun_ / Shotgun Wedding (mmm, tasty! a review when I've had more of a chance to listen to Lynn Canfield's latest project...) - -- |Jeffrey C. Burka | http://www.cqi.com/~jburka | "I've got time to rest / | | And I've got a clear, able mind that sees my life going fine. | | 'Cause everything I need is right here in my hands..." --Melissa Ferrick | ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 00:01:10 -0600 From: Mark Lowry Subject: Re: help with cd Thanks Jeff! Jeffrey C. Burka replied: > You didn't specify whether or not you were willing to repeat folks so some of > these will be duplicates to one degree or another: Repetition is fine, in fact I'm counting on it. > "The Seer" -- Big Country with KaTe (my favorite KaTe guest appearance!) > "Blood of Eden" -- Peter Gabriel & Sinead O'Connor I'm familiar with those, but don't own them. Will have to acquire ... > "Never Get Old" -- Sinead O'Connor & Enya And I can't believe I missed that one. But -- and Ectophiles please don't lynch me -- I've never heard"Sister and Brother" -- Midge Ure with KaTe What's that from? I also forgot Tori Amos + Trent Reznor = Past the Mission (and I guess there's that Tom Jones/Tori thing also). Mark n.p. Martin L. Gore _Counterfeit_ (nostalgia time!) ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V4 #406 **************************