From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V3 #106 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Wednesday, December 17 1997 Volume 03 : Number 106 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Lurkers!!! (was Re: Chicago ... [kerrywhite@webtv.net (kerry white)] Today's your birthday, friend... [matthewm (Mike Matthews)] disagreeing ["J. Wermont" ] Chicago correction [JavaHo ] Re: disagreeing [charleydarbo ] Re: disagreeing [Neile Graham ] Re: A Man Called Orst [flx@creighton.edu] Re: disagreeing ["J. Wermont" ] Re: disagreeing [Neile Graham ] Ectophiles' Guide - Please help! [Neile Graham ] I Have It? Re: Ectophiles' Guide - Please help! ["Michael P. Hayes" ] Re: disagreeing [Joseph Zitt ] Re: Ectophiles' Guide - Please help! [Joseph Zitt ] Re: disagreeing.... OK....... [Richard ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:52:15 -0600 From: kerrywhite@webtv.net (kerry white) Subject: Lurkers!!! (was Re: Chicago ... Hi, Warning to lurkers!!!!!!! Prepare to be befriended if you dare utter a thought or opinion!! If you are friendly and like some1 I abhor, I may describe the icky feelings my body and mind get when I think about it, but I would never (and belive most ectos would never) say you can't own your feelings. We have some spacey folk and a few who are too sane and every type inbetween. When we get too far apart from each other's point of view we usually back off. If you are coming in from L-H (KaTe) then you are already battle-hardened much too much to fear any1 here. KrW "Help me, Mr Wizard!!!" "Drizzel drozzel druzzel drome, time for this one to come home." also:zzkwhite@ktwu.wuacc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:00:14 -0500 From: matthewm (Mike Matthews) Subject: Today's your birthday, friend... i*i*i*i*i*i i*i*i*i*i*i *************** *****HAPPY********* **************BIRTHDAY********* *************************************************** *************************************************************************** ******************* Damon Harper (damon@iceonline.com) ******************** *************************************************************************** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Damon Harper Tue December 16 1975 Sagittarius Laura Clifford Tue December 17 1957 Sagittarius Dirk Kastens Tue December 17 1963 Sagittarius Milla Wed December 17 1975 Sagittarius Chris Schernwetter Tue December 17 1974 Sagittarius Sherry Haddock Sat December 17 1960 Sagittarius Tracy Benbrook Tue December 18 1973 Sagittarius Uli Grepel Wed December 25 1968 Steinbock Joseph Wasicek Sat December 25 1976 Brown Eagle Stuart Castergine Mon December 30 1963 You Are Here Marvin Camras Sat January 01 1916 Tapehead Jeanne Schreiter Tue January 03 1967 Capricorn John Sandoval Wed January 04 1967 Capricorn Paul Cohen Tue January 05 1954 Capricorn Tony Garrity Mon January 08 1962 Pool of Life Greg Bossert Tue January 09 1962 OfTheTimes Troy J. Shadbolt Thu January 14 1971 Capricorn Chris Sampson Wed January 15 1964 Void where prohibited - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:26:53 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Wermont" Subject: disagreeing > Hi, Warning to lurkers!!!!!!! Prepare to be befriended if you dare > utter a thought or opinion!! If you are friendly and like some1 I > abhor, I may describe the icky feelings my body and mind get when I > think about it, but I would never (and belive most ectos would never) > say you can't own your feelings. I don't think anyone says you can't own your feelings (not even sure what that means). But a lot of times (I haven't seen it here) people don't simply talk about the icky feelings in their own bodies and minds. They express their opinions as fact, not opinion. They don't say, "I can't stand so-and-so," but rather, "So-and-so sucks." Or, even worse: "If you think that such-and-such is good music, you're an idiot - anyone with discerning taste knows they're no-talent bums." And so on. I wouldn't say I find that style of expression intimidating, exactly, but I do find it obnoxious, and it spoils my fun. I don't want discussion of the music I love to turn into a competition. I am interested in knowing why someone feels differently than I do about something - even if they express it strongly - but I want basic respect for my feelings about it, too. In fact, I want more than just tolerance and respect - I really want *interest*. I mean, if we're engaged in a conversation together, doesn't it make sense that we would be interested in why we disagree, why the other feels as they do? If we're not interested in each other's thoughts, and *why* they have those thoughts, then we're just talking *at* each other. Again, I haven't seen that kind of immature "mine is better than yours, nya, nya, nya" kind of talk here too much. But I think one tends to see it a lot, especially on the net, and maybe that's why some people are anticipating it with some trepidation here. Joyce jwermont@netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:09:54 EST From: JavaHo Subject: Chicago correction This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --part0_882274196_boundary Content-ID: <0_882274196@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII << Vickie very warmly suggested that there are many folks out there > lurking who are interested in what *everyone* has to say. >> Disclaimer/correction: this sentence should have stated that there are lurkers AND active post-ers that are interested to hear from everyone. This would more accurately represent what she said. Also, I did not mean to give the impression that she, in any way, was speaking against any list-members. Her comment to me was a personal encouragement to share any views and reviews of musical talent and anything else that strikes as relevant, because that is what the list is for. My intention here was to draw other lurkers out who may feel that they don't have anything to contribute. Thanks...Java - --part0_882274196_boundary Content-ID: <0_882274196@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from relay02.mail.aol.com (relay02.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.2]) by air11.mail.aol.com (v37.2) with SMTP; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:36:02 1900 Received: from relay1.shore.net (relay1.shore.net [192.233.85.129]) by relay02.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id BAA10935; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:35:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from jane.smoe.org (majordom@smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by relay1.shore.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA28054; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:31:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4-listq-jane) id BAA01872; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:28:58 -0500 Received: by jane.smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:28:43 -0500 Received: by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4-listq-jane) id BAA01706; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:12:53 -0500 Received: from kani.wwa.com (kani.wwa.com [198.49.174.58]) by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4-daemon-mode-relay2) with SMTP id BAA01700 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:12:42 -0500 Received: from 207.241.63.93(really [207.241.63.93]) by kani.wwa.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:10:57 -0600 (CST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #88 built 1997-Nov-30) Message-ID: <3495C838.77A7@wwa.com> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:16:08 +0000 From: charleydarbo Reply-To: lissener@wwa.com Organization: whatever X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) To: ecto@smoe.org Subject: Re: Chicago, and sTuff... References: Sender: owner-ecto@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit JavaHo wrote: > . . . . . . . . . > > At some point, I expressed my hesitancy to post to this list for fear that my > posts might not...ummm...make the grade (I'm putting this as politely as I > know how). Vickie very warmly suggested that there are many folks out there > lurking who are interested in what *everyone* has to say. > > In a very timely post, Kenn showed great courage by stating (excerpted): > > < to offer their opinions. When the long-timers are casting aspersions at > artists other than the one(s) because of whom the mailing list exists, I'm not > at all surprised that so many people remain silent on lists or unsub > altogether. That can be pretty intimidating. >> I can only assume that in this post Kenn was talking about a list other than Ecto. If I'm mistaken in that assumption, I'd like to point out that during the last round of topic-versus-off-topic arguments, it was the older ectophiles defending Ecto as a forum for the unregulated discussion of any type of music against a few newer 'philes who insisted thay we reign in the non-Happy talk. No one should feel intimidated to post. If a lively discussion results--one that bounces back and forth between pro and con and like and dislike--you should consider yourself warmly included in the Ecto "community", not excluded: humans disagree, especially when it comes to artistic opinions. It's unfortunate that some people label enthusiasm in discussing a subject someone feels strongly about--whether for or against--as a personal attack. We should allow each other full freedom do express our thoughts, both positive and negative. Thank you and good night. - --charley n.p. Spiritualized: _Ladies_and_Gentlemen_We_Are_Floating_in_Space_ n.r. Ted Hughes: _Tales_from_Ovid_ - --part0_882274196_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:03:57 +0000 From: charleydarbo Subject: Re: disagreeing J. Wermont wrote: > > . . . a lot of times (I haven't seen it here) people > don't simply talk about the icky feelings in their own bodies and minds. > They express their opinions as fact, not opinion. They don't say, "I > can't stand so-and-so," but rather, "So-and-so sucks." -- If someone says "so and so sucks", that's obviously their opinion: it's impossible for a statement like that to be intended or regarded as a statement of fact. To preface every such statement with the disclaimer that it _is_ such would be (in my opinion) condescending and redundant. _Pleeez_, people, don't look for attacks where there are none. > -- Or, even worse: > "If you think that such-and-such is good music, you're an idiot - anyone > with discerning taste knows they're no-talent bums." And so on. I have _never_ seen this on Ecto. If that _is_ the way of the rest of the 'Net, an argument that uses that as a defense has no place in a discussion of the receptivity of Ectophiles: it only stirs the murk and adds an irrelevant negative tone. The fact that that _is_ the way of the 'Net is more reason to celebrate Ecto as a sanctuary and to feel welcome here, not to justify one's reluctance to participate in our forum. - --charleydarbo n.p. The Geraldine Fibbers: _Lost_Somewhere_Between_the_Earth_and_My_Home_ n.r. Rick Bass: _The_Sky,_the_Stars,_and_the_Wilderness_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:40:43 -0700 From: Neile Graham Subject: Re: disagreeing Joyce Wermont said: >> "If you think that such-and-such is good music, you're an idiot - anyone >> with discerning taste knows they're no-talent bums." And so on. charleydarbo wrote: > I have _never_ seen this on Ecto. If that _is_ the way of the rest of >the 'Net, an argument that uses that as a defense has no place in a >discussion of the receptivity of Ectophiles: it only stirs the murk and >adds an irrelevant negative tone. The fact that that _is_ the way of the >'Net is more reason to celebrate Ecto as a sanctuary and to feel welcome >here, not to justify one's reluctance to participate in our forum. Well, we haven't exactly been entirely innocent of that. There seems to be a common acceptance that the material Mariah Carey does sucks even though most of us agree she's got a good voice. But I bet there are people here who like the music she does as well as her voice. I'm just using Mariah Carey as an example, but we do tend to assume certain artists are beyond the pale. That may well be what puts people off. Just like there are widely diverging opinions on Ron Sexsmith. Some of the terms many of us used to dismiss him were pretty harsh. I don't think I posted it to the list, but in a private response when I was asking for permission to use a quotation in the Ectophiles' Guide I commented on how quickly the disc flew back out the door when a friend gave it to us as a present. That friend has some good taste in music--in fact, he was the first person who played Jane Siberry for me way back when _No Borders Here_ was brand new--and he adores Ron Sexsmith's album. I still wanna be able to tell ecto that musically it made my skin crawl. If this friend were on ecto I'd want him to be able to tell me I'm nuts and that he loves it because the lyrics hit him emotionally right on the money. I just would like to think that everyone finds ecto accepting enough of different viewpoints to feel they could stand up for "unpopular" artists like Mariah Carey and Ron Sexsmith and not be shot down. Has anyone on ecto ever shot anyone down? I don't think so, but my perceptions may be skewed by being here so long and long feeling a part of the ecto community. - --Neile - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Neile Graham ..... http://www.sff.net/people/neile ..... neile@sff.net The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music .... http://www.smoe.org/ectoguide - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:20:49 -0600 (CST) From: flx@creighton.edu Subject: Re: A Man Called Orst In a message to Ecto on Fri, 12 Dec 1997, sspan wrote: > radio stations today, when they latch onto a song or > artist, tend to beat it to death and beyond and then some. Is this new to you? I recall travelling across the country and every new station we'd find'd be playing "Here Comes The Rain Again" (Which I loved and rather *liked* hearing 8 million times). - - - - - - - - - - Felix Strates Don't go drown in a shallow pool flx@creighton.edu we've got so much work for you. http://www.creighton.edu/~flx --Tsunami, "Old Grey Mare" - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:52:13 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Wermont" Subject: Re: disagreeing charleydarbo wrote: > If someone says "so and so sucks", that's obviously their opinion: it's > impossible for a statement like that to be intended or regarded as a > statement of fact. To preface every such statement with the disclaimer > that it _is_ such would be (in my opinion) condescending and redundant. Why is it a disclaimer to say, "I love (or hate) X because..." ? There are so many ways to talk about music: This music moves me, makes me want to dance, makes me think, sends me soaring, makes my skin crawl, hurts my ears, bores me to tears... etc. These are all strong opinions, but they are clearly opinions, and they don't assume anything universal or factual about those opinions. How are they disclaimers, though? I don't hear anything apologetic or tentative in those phrases. Please explain. Joyce ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:44:21 -0700 From: Neile Graham Subject: Re: disagreeing charleydarbo wrote: > > If someone says "so and so sucks", that's obviously their opinion: it's > > impossible for a statement like that to be intended or regarded as a > > statement of fact. To preface every such statement with the disclaimer > > that it _is_ such would be (in my opinion) condescending and redundant. > J. Wermont wrote: >Why is it a disclaimer to say, "I love (or hate) X because..." ? > >There are so many ways to talk about music: This music moves me, makes me >want to dance, makes me think, sends me soaring, makes my skin crawl, hurts >my ears, bores me to tears... etc. These are all strong opinions, but they >are clearly opinions, and they don't assume anything universal or factual >about those opinions. How are they disclaimers, though? I don't hear anything >apologetic or tentative in those phrases. Please explain. > >Joyce Joyce, I think what Charley is saying this it's redundant for everyone to include the disclaimer that what they're saying isn't a fact. An example would be: "In my opinion Ron Sexsmith sucks" instead of "Ron Sexsmith sucks." There really isn't a significant different in the two statements He's not talking about "I love Ron Sexsmith because his lyrics hit me in the gut" vs. "I love Ron Sexsmith." Then there's always "I hate Ron Sexsmith because his music sucks" or "I love Ron Sexsmith because his lyrics rule". Sometimes it is just enough and just as informative to say "I liked this" or "I hated this". Of course a well thought-out, elegantly stated review is always better than this, but if that's what we demanded of every opinion on the list I for one would certainly be intimidated. Either that or I'd never post anything because I didn't have time to write it all up. Speaking of which, I wonder if I'll manage my marathon Neile's 1997 music list or not? My tops: Ingrid Karklins, Lamb, Bjork, Portishead so far, I'm thinking, though this may change when I actually _look_ at the whole list of this year's purchases. I'm really enjoying the new Devils Wielding Scimitars that I finally mail ordered but I don't know yet if it has sticking power yet. - --Neile - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Neile Graham ..... http://www.sff.net/people/neile ..... neile@sff.net The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music .... http://www.smoe.org/ectoguide - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:13:46 -0800 From: Neile Graham Subject: Ectophiles' Guide - Please help! Hey, experts-- Can anyone help here? This is a message that was sent to the Ectophiles' Guide address and I'd like to help if we can. - --Neile >Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:37:37 -0600 >From: Seth Warn >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: ectoguide@smoe.org >Subject: Ectophiles' Guide - Please help! > >Dear Ectophiles, > >I'm sure that this e-mail link was not intended for questions, but I >must try! > >You see, I heard part of a song on the radio, and I want to hear more. >However, I don't know who sings it! From the descriptions on your web >page, it sounded at least vaugely "ecto;" as much of the song as I can >remember is at the bottom of this letter. > >If you can identify this song, please help me! I live in the cultural >desert known as Southern Missouri, USA, where no one has heard of music >since Buddy Holly. I myself typically prefer other kinds of music, so I >am also clueless. > >Thank you, > >Seth Warn > >THE SONG: It had a pop sound, with a female singer accompanied mainly by >a piano. > >Chorus - Would it be so bad, if I could turn you on? > Would I be so wrong, if I could turn you on? > Kiss you on the mouth, I want to taste it > Turn you upside down, don't want to waste it. > >You will feel you're blown apart >All the pieces there will fit to make you whole >and I know where they go. > >plus, something about "I get so mad, I could slap you in the mouth" > >That's all I remember. If you can help me, I would be very happy. > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Neile Graham ..... http://www.sff.net/people/neile ..... neile@sff.net The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music .... http://www.smoe.org/ectoguide - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:41:00 -0600 (CST) From: "Michael P. Hayes" Subject: I Have It? Re: Ectophiles' Guide - Please help! > >THE SONG: It had a pop sound, with a female singer accompanied mainly by > >a piano. > > > >Chorus - Would it be so bad, if I could turn you on? > > Would I be so wrong, if I could turn you on? > > Kiss you on the mouth, I want to taste it > > Turn you upside down, don't want to waste it. > > > >You will feel you're blown apart > >All the pieces there will fit to make you whole > >and I know where they go. > > > >plus, something about "I get so mad, I could slap you in the mouth" I'm not positive, but that sounds very much like "Mouth", by Merril Bainbridge. I only heard this song a few months ago while I was on a road trip, which is why I can't be sure. Hope this helps. -- Mike ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:12:22 -0700 From: Neile Graham Subject: Praising music, criticising music Kenn says: >It's no wonder that lurkers and newbies on mailing lists are often hesitant >to offer their opinions. When the long-timers are casting aspersions at >artists other than the one(s) because of whom the mailing list exists, I'm not >at all surprised that so many people remain silent on lists or unsub >altogether. That can be pretty intimidating. Well, I think the problem is that some of us have been on a long time and we know what other people like and don't like and we're not bothered by that. I'm not offended by Irvin not liking _Boys For Pele_. (I think he's WRONG WRONG WRONG because my taste is the ultimate--at least in my life, eh?) and I'm perfectly willing to post to say that I disagree with him. One thing I've learned over the years I've been collecting comments for The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music is that we all have different tastes: what one person loves, another runs screaming from, or finds bland. We don't all agree on the "goddess" list for one thing. There's been a lot of talk about various artists and styles--some of which some of us like and others of us don't like. Of course, we all have differing opinions on artists outside the goddess range--if we can't agree on the goddesses, how can we agree on artists farther ranging than that? There's a lot of slagging of radio-friendly "pop" music. I'm probably one of the worst for that--I just don't like what I call pop. But other people on ecto love the same artists that I dislike for being too pop for my tastes. The point I'm trying to make here is that we need to allow for each other's tastes both positive and negative. I think we do, though it appears some lurkers don't think so. My philosophy for the list's side project, The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music is that any artist than an ectophiles cares enough to review on the list or for the Guide deserves to appear there. About the only line I draw is at classical music and its subgenres--I don't want to spend all my time working on html rating Beethoven recordings since there are books devoted to such things--but the Guide already includes an entry for the Early Music group, Anonymous 4. Not every ectophiles' cup of tea. Nor is Paula Abdul, who also has an entry (admittedly it's not entirely positive). The other thing the Ectophiles' Guide includes is negative comments. I think it's important that people be able to say what they don't like to give context both to other people's comments who do like a particular piece of music but also to give context to what they do like. I think we should all feel free to say what we do and don't like--sharing opinions is important. I'm sorry that people feel intimidated because people post negative reviews, but personally I'd rather have negative reviews so that the positive reviews don't all fade into meaninglessness. I do think we should be careful about slagging certain things, but if someone slags something you like, you should speak up to say you do like it--and if possible why you like it. That actually happens a lot on the list, and is one of my favourite things about it. I think it's hard for people new to any list that has been around for a while to get past the way people who are very active on the list interact, but if you enjoy the list you keep reading and eventually feel you have to post about _something_ and yikes, you're sucked in. I was totally intimidated when I joined the list and was quiet a long time--but that was almost 6 years ago now. Anyway, for what it's worth, I'm sorry that people are intimidated and are leaving the list because of this, but I don't want to censor negative opinions and make the list a place where if you can't say something nice you don't say anything at all, because that doesn't help me when I hit the record store. Early on when I first joined the list I bought a lot of discs that had entirely positive reviews on the list and I regretted that no one had posted negative reviews of them to warn me to be careful out there and that the disc might not be to all tastes. With that in mind, I say when I don't like something, so people who tend to have similar tastes to mine will know to give it a good listen first. Who Neile doesn't like: well, I don't like Sarah McLachlan much. Or Dar Williams, even her new album. Or the Nields (maybe if they spelled their name "Neileds"?) I don't much like Peter Gabriel past _Peter Gabriel I_ and _III_. My range of taste sometimes feels very narrow. But it's deep. Who Neile does like: Veda Hille, Tori Amos, Happy Rhodes (of course, though I didn't much care for her work with Project Lo, nobody gasp with horror, please), Kate Bush, etc., etc. But there are many ectophiles who don't like Tori Amos and never have. There will be ectophiles who won't like Veda Hille. There are even a couple of ectophiles who don't like Happy. I want them to be able to say so. I want to be able to say so. I don't want people to be put off or intimidated, but neither do I want ecto to be restricted to positive comments only. We should probably be more careful in the way we criticize pieces of music or particular artists, but this isn't a moderated review list--most of our reviews are very emotional, both positive and negative. I thought there was room here for both--I want there to be room here for both. The good news is that there isn't a standard the ectophiles have to like x or dislike y. Plenty of us dislike x and like y. We just need to have the nerve to say so as much as the people who feel the other way. There's not a huge degree of consensus here, nor is it needed. - --Neile - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Neile Graham ..... http://www.sff.net/people/neile ..... neile@sff.net The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music .... http://www.smoe.org/ectoguide - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:01:13 -0600 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: disagreeing Neile Graham wrote: > Has anyone on ecto ever shot anyone down? I don't think so, but my > perceptions may be skewed by being here so long and long feeling a part of > the ecto community. There have been a few over the years. They were pretty much hugged into submission :-) n.p. VH-1's 3 hour Mariah Carey marathon (no, I'm not kidding...) n.r. Dante, "La Vita Nuova". Mark Musa, trans. - -- - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \| ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:11:06 -0600 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: Ectophiles' Guide - Please help! Neile Graham wrote that Seth Warn wrote: > >plus, something about "I get so mad, I could slap you in the mouth" An AltaVista search on the string "slap you in the mouth" identifies this as "Mouth" by Merrill Bainbridge. See, among other sites, http://www.algonet.se/~jonasasp/songs/mouth.txt for lyrics and chords. - -- - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \| ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:20:50 +1100 (EST) From: Sherlyn Koo Subject: Re: I Have It? Re: Ectophiles' Guide - Please help! Hey folks, Mike said: > I'm not positive, but that sounds very much like "Mouth", by > Merril Bainbridge. I only heard this song a few months ago > while I was on a road trip, which is why I can't be sure. Yep, that's definitely the song in question! If I don't post again before I go away - happy holidays, everyone! Hope you all have a great one. :) sherlyn - --- Sherlyn Koo - sherlyn@fl.net.au [Currently at work or someplace.] * I will be AWAY from December 22, 1997 until January 12, 1998. * "Looking back, seeing far, landing right where we are; And oh... aren't we aging well?" - Dar Williams ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:54:03 -0500 From: Paul Blair Subject: Re: Praising music, criticising music >But there are many ectophiles who don't like Tori Amos and never have. >There will be ectophiles who won't like Veda Hille. Whaddya mean, "will be"? :-) I'm with Neile on this whole disagreement thing, though. I also was quiet for about my first year on ecto--for one thing, I didn't know enough about most of the people who get discussed here to feel brave enough to say anything. And I tend to be sensitive to criticism myself. But I also appreciate the fact that people on this list voice negative as well as positive comments. That said, I also have to say that this has got to be one of the most civilized lists I've ever had the pleasure to subscribe to. I appreciate it more all the time. Cheers, Paul ***************************************************************************** "Let her out? But she's a killer!" "No she's not. And give her your coat." SINED "Why me?" "Because you're perfect." Paul Blair "You have a point there..." psfblair@ix.netcom.com *****************************************************************************  ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:58:24 -0500 (EST) From: Neal Copperman Subject: Re: Praising music, criticising music On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Neile Graham wrote: > Has anyone on ecto ever shot anyone down? I don't think so, but my > perceptions may be skewed by being here so long and long feeling a part of > the ecto community. I'm sure it's happened, given the occasionally strong opinions and the odd soft spot in everyone's psyches. Hell, I can think of times I've been offended here, and the appropriate response has always been to remember that the comments were someone elses opinion (and obviously wrong to boot!). And by all means, stand up for your opinion. On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Neile Graham wrote: > Speaking of which, I wonder if I'll manage my marathon Neile's 1997 music > list or not? My tops: Ingrid Karklins, Lamb, Bjork, Portishead so far, > I'm thinking, though this may change when I actually _look_ at the whole > list of this year's purchases. I sure hope so Neile. Many of us look forward to that magnum opus, and save it for quite a while. (You'd have to just to get through it!). I was alarmed to find that, once again, I bought more discs this year than last year, though there aren't a huge number of standouts. On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Neile Graham wrote: > I'm not offended by Irvin not liking _Boys For Pele_. (I think he's WRONG > WRONG WRONG because my taste is the ultimate--at least in my life, eh?) and > I'm perfectly willing to post to say that I disagree with him. Heh heh, you were probably more offended by irvin claiming YOU didn't like BFP :) > The other thing the Ectophiles' Guide includes is negative comments. I > think it's important that people be able to say what they don't like to > give context both to other people's comments who do like a particular piece > of music but also to give context to what they do like. I think we should > all feel free to say what we do and don't like--sharing opinions is > important. As I saw this thread start, I found myself thinking that I'd rather see a list of accepted ecto artists that people found annoying than another goddess list. The latter is too easy, and the former might be interesting. For me, the woman who drives me up the wall more than anyone else these days is Lisa Loeb. I don't know why I find her so insufferable. I kind of wish I could figure it out. Maybe I could deal with it better then. I found her first album to be a mixed bag, containing a few catchy songs that I sort of enjoyed, and others that left me annoyed for hours. Something in her earnest repetition of an annoying phrase "don't stultify" or about half of that I Do song, just makes me cringe. I even have a strong negative reaction to just looking at her! which is pretty uncharacteristic of me. (Good response to the thread, huh?) > Anyway, for what it's worth, I'm sorry that people are intimidated and are > leaving the list because of this, Has this actually been happening? I can't imagine anyone who has left the list offended speeking up now. Then again, where can you go and be better treated? I think ecto's much vaunted friendliness doesn't quite live up to it's hype, but it's still the most civil place I've found in my admittedly minimal wanderings. > Who Neile doesn't like: well, I don't like Sarah McLachlan much. Or Dar > Williams, even her new album. Or the Nields (maybe if they spelled their > name "Neileds"?) I'm sure you meant "Nealds". I saw Dar last night in Annapolis. I was prepared for my first experience of Dar with a band, but was surprised to find that it was a solo show. She played a bunch of old songs, stumbling awkwardly through a few of them. Something seemed to be missing in the show for me. I haven't been that taken with the new album, but she only played 4 songs off of it, and they were all ones i more or less like, though the only one that really worked for me was End of the Summer. Somewhere around mid-show, the set started to click for me, and it stayed solid until the end, with notably good versions of February, The Blessings, Alleluia and When I Was A Boy. (I think my preferances are certainly showing through there.) I thought it sounded like she might have had a cold, as her voice wasn't as clear as usual. Then again, I'm the one who was medicated and have sinus and nasal infections, so it's not clear that the haze I was viewing the world through wasn't more of a contributing factor than I realized. That was made clear to me when the audience's enthusiastic applause set off a disconcerting buzzing in my head. Final aside - I finally listened to Jane's Child CD earlier this evening. Jane delivers as usual, with any number of surprising highlights. Best rush out and order this before the holiday season ends, though I'm sure I'll be listening to it year round. Neal np: Folk Era's Live Sampler (and a pretty mediocre one at that)\ nr: The Color of Water: A Black Man's Tribute to his White Mother by James McBride ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:54:36 -0800 From: Neile Graham Subject: All the help A message from Seth, who asked the question posted to ecto earlier today. Thanks for coming through for him, everyone! - --Neile >Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:24:36 -0600 >From: Seth Warn >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: Neile Graham >Subject: All the help > >To Neile and all the people from the Ecto mailing list: > >Wow! Thanks for all the responses; they were more intelligent, polite, >and helpful than anything I've seen on any other public forum. If the >kind of music you listen to is a reflection of your own personality, >then Ecto is a truly superior music style. > >Seth > >Neile - please forward this to your listserve... I don't have time to >personally thank everyone who responded! > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Neile Graham ..... http://www.sff.net/people/neile ..... neile@sff.net The Ectophiles' Guide to Good Music .... http://www.smoe.org/ectoguide - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:02:54 -0400 From: Richard Subject: Re: disagreeing.... OK....... As a former newbie here , let me relate my unsettling experiences posting to ecto back when.. I've been subscribed for a little over a year, and my first post was sometime around January 1997, in which I committed the gaffe of using a snippett of one of Happy's lyrics as a pun.. It was a gaffe, because a subsequent post by a regular made a groaning reference to "people here who use lyric quotes", or something to that effect, but it was very obviously an indirect slap, and I retreated to my lurking ways. Then came March, and a rather outspoken post by someone that ignited a flurry of hand-wringing about the possibility of ecto's first flame war- This was right around the time of Happy's 3/15 Tin Angel gig, and I made the grievous error of ending a gushing report of how much her performance blew me away with a tongue-in-cheek and good-humoured comment about the condition of streets in the vicinity of the Tin Angel.. BANG, a post virulently "defending" Philadelphia's honor and bitching about "people" contributing to the supposed flame war.. 'twas lurk time once again. I can't speak for others, but these are the things that had me wondering if I belonged here at all, and they are, to me, the kind of things that may have prompted Java's and Kenn's remarks.. On the other paw, I have to say that a pre-Tin Angel post netted me a wonderful welcoming message from a reg here, one of the nicest people I have run into in 5+ years online, and Sharon Nichols responded to a query about photo-ops at the Tin Angel with a much-appreciated informational response. And those are the things that convinced me to ignore the sour grapes and stick with it.. So, to those folks who made indirect critical comments instead of confronting me face-to-face, I say: :-PPPP~~~~~~ And to the other 99.9% of ectophiles, I say: This is cool, and I'm glad I found this place. :) r - -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ My friends, no matter how rough the road may be, we can and we will never, never surrender to what is right. -- Vice President Dan Quayle speaking to the Christian Coalition about the need for abstinence to avoid AIDS, 11/15/91 (reported in Esquire, 8/92) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V3 #106 **************************