From: owner-ecto-digest To: ecto-digest@ns2.rutgers.edu Subject: ecto-digest V2 #226 Reply-To: ecto@nsmx.rutgers.edu Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Friday, 15 September 1995 Volume 02 : Number 226 The Ecto digest is now being generated automatically. Please send problems and questions to: ecto-owner@nsmx.rutgers.edu. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: 14 Sep 95 11:35:24 EDT Subject: tori zep cover on encomium Well, I *have* heard this song (down by the seaside) -- in a record store in chicago probably right when it came out -- and contrary to what might be popular belief, I actually thought it was *great*. So I'm gonna go way out on a limb and order it from BMG for $4. Thanks for confirming my naive suspicions, folks. - -mjm ------------------------------ From: Date: 14 Sep 95 12:31:32 EDT Subject: SOTW Neile wrote |> yeah, their drinking songs have definately always been favorites in the |> past, and their present success seems to be directly linked to their |change |> toward a 'heavier' sound... | |?? I only know of the one drinking song--"The Crawl"--and I think we have |everything of theirs (we even have the cassette release of their first |album). Awm c'mon, Neile, _Home For a Rest_ is one of the best drinking songs ever invented! There's some others off Save This House, that would almost qualify (Water in the Well,The Old Sod). |> I disagree. I used to be a HUGE SOTW fan, especially due to their amazing |> lyrics, but am quite disappointed with the last album, largely because of |> the music, which I guess does make me a bit more of a music person than |i'd |> like to admit. The great lyrics are still there but often get lost in the |> heavier sound... they used to have a distinctive and original sound but |are |> leaning toward "second grade rock band" status now (i'm quoting a friend |> again, i wouldn't go quite that far...) I think Save this House was there |> best album. I like 'Tell Me What I Think' off Two Headed because it still |> has some of the old sound, but am saddened by most of the rest of that |> album. I didn't mind their transition initially but think they have gone |too |> far in almost completely dropping the celtic sound. I would agree -- Save this House was phenomenal. I too was rather disappointed with Faith Lift. But I like Go Figure (not nearly as much as STH, though). |Hmm. Our accessments are totally different. My favourite albums of |theirs are _Tripping Up the Stairs_ for their Celtic sound, _Labour Day_ |for their intermediate stage, and _Go Figure_ for their current rockier |sound. I don't like _Save This House_ much--to me it seems too poppy and |musically less distinct and individual than the albums that preceded and |that follow it. I see it as a preparation album for the more individual |_Go Figure_. _Faithlift_ seemed to me to be mostly a slightly lifeless |repeat of _Go Figure_. _Two-Headed_ seems to me to be them waking up |again (though I really haven't listened to it enough to be certain of my |impressions). Wow! I couldn't disagree more. There are *so* many great songs on Save This House. My favorites are: (*)Home for a Rest 04:36 (*)(Putting Up With) The Joneses 04:30 (*)Swingin' Single 04:57 (brilliant lyrics and mood) (*)The Old Sod 03:22 |This is obviously just my opinion, because from what I've gathered from |reading alt.music.canada, most people agree with you about _Save This |House_--it is very popular. Yup. - -mjm ------------------------------ From: Date: 14 Sep 95 12:38:04 EDT Subject: msmith Laurel (lakrahn@imho.net) Krahn, Webspinner, emotes: |Hmmm. Michael Smith's "The Dutchman" and "Spoon River." Wow, I just can't resist chiming in here to say that the michael smith songs that move me even more than those above are Sister Clarissa (which works on so many levels and always surprises me *every time* I hear it) and The Ballad of Elizabeth Darke. In fact, just about every song off Time is packed with intense emotion. This is probably why it was my pick for #1 album of the year last year. Msmith is such a phenomenal performer and songwriter (and guitarist) that it boggles my mind. Wish more people knew about him. - -mjm ------------------------------ From: kcd@bull.cray.com (Kevin Dekan {x66440 CF/DEV}) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 11:46:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Returned mail: User unknown On Thu, 14 Sep 95 jeffrey hanson wrote: > God it feels good to be back. Over three weeks without ecto (and > without e-mail in general) could drive a man to drink. Welcome back Jeff! Wouldn't want to see you overindulging. ;-) > I'm now fairly settled into my new place and job in Minneapolis. Yay! Cool. Hope your new situation works out for you! > I was looking forward to seeing Heather Nova tonight at the 7th Street > Entry but it seems like she cancelled. Anyone know what's up with > that? Well.... I heard from a friend that Heather has postponed her tour for a spell. The Minneapolis show is now scheduled for Oct. 23 I believe. Some other shows of interest that I have heard rumblings about are the Innocence Mission at the Fine Line Music Cafe on Oct. 19, October Project at the Metropolitan (never heard of this venue) on Oct.24. Some other artists that I am not familiar with but might also be interesting are Patty Larkin also at Fine Line Oct. 1 (thanks Cathy!) and Letters To Cleo at First Avenue on Oct.25. Wow! The latter part of October really looks good for Minneapolis. Hope this helps! Kevin D. ------------------------------ From: Richard Holmes Date: Thu, 14 Sep 95 10:00:57 -0700 Subject: Re: Jewel (and biology vs. environment) ariel_b@pipeline.com (Ariel Brennan) writes in response to gregdunn@indy.net (Greg Dunn): >>Jewel is a perfect example of someone who has been encouraged from >>an early age to stand up and speak her mind; can we condemn her >>premises >>without being cynics ourselves? :) > >Ahem. I AM a cynic. I fully admit it. ;) Not only am I a cynic, I'm a >pessimist and a materialist. ;) May that prepare you for what is to >come in this message. I alternate between cynicism and pessimism, gaurded optimism, and eternal hope :) [snip] >Naive and simplistic will never really help. In fact, if you make a >problem look simpler than it really is, you're hurting more than >helping, because everyone will underestimate it and brush it off. And >the fact that she DOESN'T recognize the root of a problem is pretty >harmful as well, both to her and to those she influences. I wouldn't say it *never* helps, because it always offers a perspective. However, simplistic answers seldom work in the general case... too many variables. >>>"What we call human nature is, in actuality, human habit" has to be >>>the >>>most ridiculous statement about people I've ever heard. People are >>>pretty >>>biology/instinct driven, and that is, by definition, nature. >> >>Racism? Homophobia? Child abuse? Natural? I don't see how these >>traits are >>inherent genetic dispositions. They're habitual and often learned >>characteristics which are very anti-survival. > >Actually, you'd be surprised how much of that IS inherent genetic >disposition. Sexism, for example, is an outgrowth of the desire to >protect women (because without them there is no life, etc etc.) Racism >and homophobia are both the result of the drive to protect you and >yours from "outsiders". Two horribly misfired instincts. But instincts >no less. Oh, and child abuse is seen in nature as well. > >One of the most dangerous beliefs to have is that you have to be >"taught to hate and fear". You don't; fear and hate IS a survival >instinct, albeit a nasty one that most people don't want to deal with. >If people didn't hate and fear, the race would've died out long ago. >The problem is that many people don't know how to go beyond base >instinct. I agree, Ariel, that hate and fear are instinctual, and essential to survival (at least the fear part, and hatred seems a matter of degree. I would hate someone who murdered a loved one for a long time....). One trick is learning *how* to go "beyond base instinct", and another is learning when to trust or not trust the base instinct. >>I don't accept that the tendency >>of humans to fight and mistreat one another is wholly derived from >>natural >>selection and biological drives. Most people learn hate and >>intolerance form >>others; they aren't born with it. > >Absolutely not. Look at our closest relatives; chimps. They tear each >other to shreds on a regular basis. Humans are animals just like >everyone else. just because we're supposedly smarter doesn't mean >we're above the same instincts everything else has. Again, the problem >is that many people don't know how to go beyond base instinct. Refusal >to accept that will only hinder progress in the battle against it, >rather than enhancing it. Heck, I agree with both of you! IMHO, you're born with some, will learn some in ANY society as you develop emotionally, and learn more from a culture which glamorizes many negative traits, and a structure which drives people to compete in many unnecessary ways. >And no, it's not ALL biology. A lot of it is twisted biology. But >people miss the boat when they look to society for answers to >questions. You've got to look at the biology; that's what caused the >original human behavior that eventually brought us where we are, and >we're not that far from where we were back then. We must examine society and biology, see how they interact. I certainly agree we're not "that far from where we were back then"... one twist is that our intellect has "outpaced" our instinct and societal behavior... you can mandate behavior all you want but without a few hundred more millenia in the right direction, the basic premises will stay the same. What we do with those premises, well... It seems that a better structure could be thought up... good luck implementing it, though! >Consider, if people are basically peaceful beings that become polluted >with bad teachings, what started those teachings to begin with? Why >would someone suddenly start teaching everyone to hate and fear, thus >destroying what could be a Utopia? And why does it occur regardless of >society, culture, upbringing, etc? It's because you don't need to be >taught TO hate or fear, you need to be taught NOT to. IMHO, utopia is unattainable, but worth striving towards. Any utopia-like society would take a LOT of work to prevent it from degenerating to our current conditions. Like entropy, sort of. It takes ot of teaching to teach people *not* to hate and fear inappropriately. We can't mandate or dictate it either, without imposing a system of punishment which (surprise) brings hatred and fear! Some people are more susceptible to being taught to not hate / fear... some are not. There always exists the possibility, even in a "utopia-like" situation, that some will band together to dismember it and get a bigger piece of the pie (assuming finite resources), and then you'll need some motivation (yes, fear) to protect yourself against "them".... transcending this problem is a capability I've not seen in evidence in our species as a whole. >-Ariel Ariel, Greg, thank you for your commentary. It has been most interesting. - -RIchard ------------------------------ From: Richard Holmes Date: Thu, 14 Sep 95 10:05:24 -0700 Subject: Re: msmith >Wow, I just can't resist chiming in here to say that the michael smith >songs that move me even more than those above are Sister Clarissa >(which works on so many levels and always surprises me *every time* I >hear it) and The Ballad of Elizabeth Darke. In fact, just about every >song off Time is packed with intense emotion. This is probably why it >was my pick for #1 album of the year last year. Msmith is such a >phenomenal performer and songwriter (and guitarist) that it boggles my >mind. Wish more people knew about him. Wow, do you know where I can get ahold of some of the *lyrics* to see if I want to get this cd? - -Richard. ------------------------------ From: veronica sawyer Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 11:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Orson Scott Card live in Boston 9/15 i know this is tangential-ecto (we *do* get quite a few SF/Fantasy threads here, don't we?) but i thought some might be interested... Orson Scott Card will be doing a public appearance at the Waterstone's bookstore in the Burlington Mall *tomorrow*, Friday September 15th, at 7pm. i belive it's in conjunction with a new book, but probably anyone who's interested would know more about that than i do. i'm pretty sure i have all the info straight, but you can call them on 617-229-2222 to make sure. sorry about the short notice, i only found out last night myself. relatedly and sadly, i suspect that this appearance is at this particular Waterstone's because the one down in the back bay burned down a couple of weeks ago, and that store used to get all the "cool" guests. *very sad* ... *very very sad* :( sometime later maybe i'll get my $0.02 (in 1972 dollars) in on the music & lyrics thread... so be very afraid! ;) smiles & hugs, veronica p.s. if you go to Waterstone's and you meet a woman named Christine who works there (thin, with glasses & long strawberry blonde hair) tell her veronica sent you :) ------------------------------ From: SBI!200HUBBARD!AMYD@lmbinc.attmail.com Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 13:21:00 +0000 Subject: Wattage in the Cottage or... If You Don't Stop You'll Go Deaf.... Music vs. lyrics.. hmmmm... I could go on for about 10 pages. But I truly believe it is a combination of both for me - what can make or break a song, send me into tears, is the voice - the expression put into the performance. One song that sticks in my brain as having been a major tear yanker was Kate & Peter "the Angel" Gabriel's performance of Roy Harper's "Another Day". This was almost 10 years ago when I saw this (eek) bootleg video of Kate's t.v special where they performed this duet. From Kate's "I loved you a long time ago.." large lump in throat, etc. Her voice is absolutely haunting - particularly so here IMHO - and so is Pete's. I've heard Roy Harper's version of his tune and it doesn't have quite the same effect. I suppose one could say that I perhaps am more influenced by the music, or arrangement of a tune then... I've always loved the Genesis tune "Musical Box", but Phil's version on Second's Out does more for the butterflies in my tummy than Pete's version on Nursery Cryme - don't know why exactly, maybe it's the sound of Phil's voice, the hushed anticipation...I think in general that Phil Collins is a pretty darn good singer for someone who used to consider himself strictly a drummer - altho I'm not as fond of his songwriting over the last few years (and what he did to his 2nd wife is pretty sickening - in my again, humble opinion) - but he is an expressive vocalist when he wants to be. I could go on, as I said, for days and days about songs that have twisted and pushed and pulled me apart over the years, but some that come to mind without even thinking: "Everybody's Gotta Learn Sometime" by the Corgies (I think that's how they spelled it) it's this creepy tune from 1980 with a line in there "...change your heart... look around you.. change your heart.. it will astound you... I need your lovin like the sunshine.." trite, I agree... but the haunting synth and pleading, sad tone of the vocalist kept me up for hours after the first time I heard it, on the radio while trying to fall asleep (oh so many years ago). Other tunes... "Fools Overture" from Supertramp, "Awaken" from Yes, "Little Earthquakes" and "Upside Down" from Tori, ton's of Kate's tunes, I second the notion someone about "The Lamia" from Genesis, there are quite a few Genesis songs on my list.. as well as solo Gabriel... ah.. Peter... that man has been cause of much musical angst in my adolescent years.... I would sometimes play the same Genesis or Gabriel album several times in one night, just to get the same "feeling" over and over again.. I'm sure I'm leaving out lots I want to say.. but I'm typing this at work and worried that someone is going to think i've "gone off" again. I will close in saying - I feel the "thing" that grabs me wrt a tune - is the vocalist - the expression in the voice - and then, maybe the compostion itself... and I really LOVE Bjork's work on "It's Oh So Quiet"! I was chatting with a friend of mine who is equally enamoured with the tune and we agreed that little Bjork must have played her Kate albums, then Edith Piaff, then Yoko Ono.. :-) that girl has quite a set of pipes! yours tunefully, Amy ------------------------------ From: "Mitchell A. Pravatiner" Date: Thu, 14 Sep 95 15:42:02 EDT Subject: Bloopglurp redux and other stories Several years ago, I was in the early stages of writing a post for these pages, when I hit the wrong key and sent it through. Greg Bossert then replied to that half-baked post with the single neologism, BLOOPGLURP. Yesterday, I was composing a quick reply to a couple of bits of business that appeared in these pages the last few days, when an unexpected contingency necessitated my pulling out of the editor. History repeated itself (as it often does when you're in a hurry), and you all have apparently received about the first sentence and a half of what I was in the process of writing. I feel it timely to respond quickly to a couple of things, because I need to get back to processing what's left of the over 400 pieces of mail in my reader while I'm still young enough to enjoy them, sort of :-). ANYWAY-- The radio newsmagazine _CBC Sunday Morning_ had a story a couple of weeks ago about poor women who, unable to afford TV licenses, have gone without them, but not necessarily without TV. Too poor to pay the fines, either, they've increasingly been jailed alongside genuine predators as a result. As for the trucks, I assume they can pick up some sort of RF emission from sets in their vicinity and locate its source, which can then be cross-checked against lists of licenseholders to determine the existence of rogue viewers :-). _Exotica_ was directed by Atom Egoyan, who has made a number of significant independent films in Canada. It would not surprise me if this very good film eventually shows up a lot in revival theaters on a double bill with the new film _Showgirls_. Lead actor Bruce Greenwood, BTW, also stars in the new UPN series _Nowhere Man_. Mitch ------------------------------ From: "Matt Bittner" Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 14:42:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card live in Boston 9/15 On 14 Sep 95 at 11:14, veronica sawyer typed diligently: > Orson Scott Card will be doing a public appearance at the > Waterstone's bookstore in the Burlington Mall *tomorrow*, Friday > September 15th, at 7pm. i belive it's in conjunction with a new > book, but probably anyone who's interested would know more about > that than i do. i'm pretty sure i have all the info straight, but Probably touring in support of his newest Alvin Maker book, _Alvin Journeyman_ (I think that's the title). He's also planning on releasing - although not sure when - a new book in his "Ender" series. Matt - -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Matthew Bittner WW1 Modeler, ecto subscriber, new dad, meba@cso.com PowerBuilder developer; Omaha, Nebraska "It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob." - Brain - -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ------------------------------ From: jimray@halcyon.com (james ray) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 14:42:12 +0200 Subject: lyric v music v vocal I have been lurking here for the last few weeks and only now do I have something to contribute. First I would like to say it is refreshing to be able to categorize the kind of music I like, it has been frustrating me for the last couple of years. To read the list of ecto artists was just like reading a list of my cd's. Thank you for providing a forum to which people can exchange ideas and share other ecto music. Second I subscribed so that I could find other music of this kind. Thanks to you all, I have discovered Heather Nova. Third I have been following the thread of music vs lyrics vs vocals and would like to add my $.02. I have given this a lot of thought and have decided that all three are a must and would add a fourth criteria-originality. I believe this is why I have not been purchasing cd's lately and have resorted to listening to the classical station. There is not much out there that meets my high standards. I am very tired of a sound being created and then others copying it, a great example of this is "grunge". After a while everything starts sounding the same. My favorites are Dead Can Dance, Kate Bush, Peter Gabriel and Loreena McKennitt. What sets them apart from others is their use of exotic and unusual instruments. I can not listen to guitars, drums and keyboards, it's just not enough, it sounds flat and uninteresting. (Happy Rhodes is one of the few who can get away with it and that is only because she uses her voice more like an instrument) And fourth I would like to recommend "This Mortal Coil" to all you ecto fans. They haven't produced anything new lately but I understand their cd's are available domestically now like the Dead Can Dance so you won't have to pay the high import prices. Check out "Blood" I think you will like it. Dawn ------------------------------ From: lakrahn@iw.net (Laurel Krahn) Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 17:52:35 -0500 Subject: Mpls shows this weekend Short notice, I know, but there are some cool show's happening in Minneapolis this weekend that ecto people in the Twin Cities might be interested in... This just in from Will Shetterly: >Friday, Sept. 15: DreamHaven's new store is opening at 912 W. Lake Street, >Minneapolis. The Flash Girls will be doing a set early in the evening, >probably between 7 and 8 pm. [Note: Dreamhaven is a Cool Store with lots of books and stuff. Mainly SF and Fantasy, but they have other things as well. They also stock plenty of Comic Books, Gaiman related merchandise, and music by the Flash Girls, Cats Laughing, Steven Brust, et al] >Saturday, Sept. 16: Grassroots Party Benefit with Mojo Nixon, Paul Metsa, >and the Flash Girls at Ryan's in Saint Paul. The FGs open at 9pm. Free to >GRP members, probably $10 at the door. (That afternoon, Mojo Nixon and a >number of local bands -- not including the Flash Girls, 'cause they've got >a conflict -- will be playing for free in front of the state capitol as >part of the Grassroots Party's annual Tea Party.) Grassroots Party supporter or no, it's a neat concert. If I were in the cities, I'd be at Ryan's to see the Flash Girls and Mojo Nixon (Paul Metsa's pretty good, too)... Mojo's fun fun fun... and the Flash Girls are cool. IMHO. Minnesota Renaisance Festival continues this weekend and the following, near Shakopee, Minnesota. Musical acts out there include: The Flash Girls, Morrigan (of which Steve Brust is a part), Bedlam, Lojo Russo, Curtis & Loretta, and other fine folks. Don't miss the "Mayhem" show at the end of the day... around 5pm Morrigan plays at the Blue Lion Tavern, joined by any and all fest musicians at 5:30pm... they stop playing trad stuff... and start... getting creative. ("Wild Mountain Thyme" to the tune of "Johnny B. Goode"? Trust me on this...) Ohyeah, Robin Anders, drummer extraordinaire of Boiled in Lead, leads the end of the day Drum Jam... and drums for Sulliman's Sufi Circus, the bellydancing troupe at Renfest. :) Laurel (lakrahn@imho.net) Krahn, Webspinner Virtual Home: http://www.iw.net/~lakrahn/index.html Seeking webmaster, internet training/writing work... signal-to-noise (Flash Girls mailing list) is online again... ------------------------------ From: Garry Potter Date: 15 Sep 95 12:41:25 EAT Subject: Zazou Hi ectophiles, Sorry to go over old territory but I was in the local Virgin store last night and picked up a copy of Hector Zazous's "Songs from the cold seas" for $Aus14.95 ($US11). This reminded me of recent posts relating to his CD "Blue Sahara" which had David Sylvian on it (Mr X). Ive accidently deleted the posts which discuss this disc and the 2nd version of it. Can someone please e-mail me privately with the details of each disc ie. Catalogue No, tracking listings etc... so I can order a copy from my local retailer. I would be really grateful. Ive also forgotten who replaced Sylvian on the 2nd version. Many thanks for your help, Garry (potterg@vrnotes.roads.vic.gov.au) ------------------------------ From: Yngve Hauge Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 04:49:03 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: #indigo-girls Some people on that channel are not at all Ecto-like. Kicking people off channels when they are quiet cause of work is not a very polite way to act. So I wonder why Ectophiles are hanging out on that channel - It's the last time I joins at least ... Sorry for bursting this out here on Ecto but I had to do it somewhere and as it concerns with #indigo-girls I thought this was the right place to send this ... Sorry again, Yngve (who is really pissed off at the moment) ------------------------------ From: Neal Copperman Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 00:40:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DC dinner, last call Hey everyone, I'll be heading out of town Saturday and won't return til the 25th. That's the day Jens gets into town, and we are tentatively planning to have dinner the next night (Tuesday, 26th) at either Meskerem in Adams Morgan (Ethipian) or King Street Blues in Alexandria, VA ("American"), depending on Jens preference. This could also change to the 27th. I've been discussing this off-ecto with the people that expressed interest before. However, if anyone missed the previous invites and wants to join us, let me know. I won't answer til I get back in town, but I will include you in any further messages. (No need to respond if you are already getting off-ecto messages from me.) Neal ------------------------------ From: ariel_b@pipeline.com (Ariel Brennan) Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 01:40:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Jewel (and biology vs. environment) On Sep 14, 1995 10:00:57, 'Richard Holmes ' wrote: Re: Simplistic perse >I wouldn't say it *never* helps, because it always offers a perspective. >However, simplistic answers seldom work in the general case... too many >variables. I probably could've better defined what it is I meant. While, of course, any perspective is better than none, it's always better to have a more "realistic" grasp on things. >I agree, Ariel, that hate and fear are instinctual, and essential to survival >(at least the fear part, and hatred seems a matter of degree. I would hate >someone who murdered a loved one for a long time....). One trick is learning >*how* to go "beyond base instinct", and another is learning when to trust or >not trust the base instinct. Oh, absolutely. I'm in no way saying everyone should smile happy and accept everything and love everyone (I don't even love half the people I "should" love, much less everyone else!). But there's a big differance between hating those who kill a loved one, and hating a race without even knowing why, because of a misfired instinct. >Heck, I agree with both of you! IMHO, you're born with some, will learn some >in ANY society as you develop emotionally, and learn more from a culture which >glamorizes many negative traits, and a structure which drives people to compete >in many unnecessary ways. Yes, but society is the way it is BECAUSE of the hatred and fear that is inborn in people. That's what I mean. :) >We must examine society and biology, see how they interact. I'm talking about to start with. Too many people say "if there's a problem, look to society". But, to find the root of a problem, you've got to go beyond society, back to the reason society IS what it is. If people weren't, by nature, the beings that they are, society wouldn't be this way TO affect someone, you know what I mean? ;) >>Consider, if people are basically peaceful beings that become polluted >>with bad teachings, what started those teachings to begin with? Why >>would someone suddenly start teaching everyone to hate and fear, thus >>destroying what could be a Utopia? And why does it occur regardless of >>society, culture, upbringing, etc? It's because you don't need to be >>taught TO hate or fear, you need to be taught NOT to. > >IMHO, utopia is unattainable, but worth striving towards. Any utopia-like >society would take a LOT of work to prevent it from degenerating to our current >conditions. Which is my point entirely. ;) Utopia would be attainable, without much problem, if people didn't have the base, sometimes rotten, instincts that they do have. :) Which is why the theory that people are basically good, but polluted by society falls apart; society wouldn't be dirty enough to pollute anyone, if people were by nature, wonderous, predjudice free beings. >Ariel, Greg, thank you for your commentary. It has been most interesting. And the same. :) - -Ariel ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V2 #226 ************************** ======================================================================== Please send any questions or comments about the list to ecto-owner@nsmx.rutgers.edu