From: owner-ecto-digest To: ecto-digest@ns2.rutgers.edu Subject: ecto-digest V2 #165 Reply-To: ecto@nsmx.rutgers.edu Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Tuesday, 25 July 1995 Volume 02 : Number 165 The Ecto digest is now being generated automatically. Please send problems and questions to: ecto-owner@nsmx.rutgers.edu. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Neile Graham Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 09:44:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Ecto top-40 > Re: the top-40 list itself - I think the backing idea behind the list in > the first place was the sharing of music (as above), so why not do away > with the rankings and just have people submit titles (and maybe a short > description of the music - restrict it to one line, something like that) > of music they've heard and appreciated and wish to share - new purchases > or old, doesn't matter.. ? I'll volunteer to collect and post the > submissions, if you fuzzyfolk think that's a good idea.. Jessica--you may not know that a bunch of people on ecto are doing something similar to this--for the last two years I've been collecting reviews posted to ecto and soliciting reviews of various artists. Because I've gotten sidetracks by personal commitments and my original partner in the project disappeared it's taken a while to get going, but the Ectophiles Guide to Good Music is well in progress. It's huge--which is why it's taking so long. I think I have well over 500 entries to work with. Anyway, if you or anyone else would like to volunteer to help with this I'm shortly going to be sending my partners in this project batches of entries on artists to compile into one complete entry for each artist/group. Basically a cut & paste & rearrange & edit & get into a common format job. Just reading this stuff to get it arranged to send out has been a lot of fun for me. I think we'll start getting stuff available on the web in the fall--at least I hope so. - --Neile neile@u.washington.edu ------------------------------ From: Jeffrey Hanson Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 10:01:05 -0700 Subject: Re: Ecto top-40 Well, in retrospect, the top 40 list and weekly top-10's were probably not such a great idea. The information gathered from such would probably not be worth the effort of compiling. I think the best thing to do is to have people keep posting mini-reviews of new purchases, as many are doing now. Particularly with the Ectophiles Guide to Good Music coming. Can't wait for that. I'd be happy to help Neile, but don't know how much time I"ll have to devote to it once I start my new job. By the way, Twin-Cinty ectophiles--anything ectoish going on in Minneapolis this weekend? I'll be there this weekend (get in late Thursday, leave SUnday evening) for my house-hunting trip. Jeff ------------------------------ From: SBI!200HUBBARD!AMYD@lmbinc.attmail.com Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 12:58:00 +0000 Subject: my summer vacation... Well... I'm baaack! ..bet ya didn't even miss me... :-).. Las Vegas was... well.. Vegas. I didn't get to meet up with Dave Torok, I didn't win lots of money (I lost money..) Highlights of my trip were as follows: Driving in a car with my dad (doing 40 in a 55 zone, left hand lane) who has no sense of direction whatsoever, my sister - who insisted on playing her Michael Bolton tape on the rentacar stereo - I pleaded and begged for her other choice which was Anita Baker (given the lesser of 2 evils..), my current boyfriend, my stepmom, and me - en route to Hoover Dam. Saw the world famous Hoover Dam Snacketeria (believe it or not, there really is such a place). But in all seriousness... Standing in the 84 degree clear, gentle water of Lake Mead, staring at the beautiful mountains of western Arizona, I felt that this has to be the most beautiful place I've seen in my life travels thus far. It narrowly beats out the English countryside because the weather was so perfect (107 dry degrees, a few puffy clouds, gentle breeze) Other points of note were the new Hard Rock Hotel and Casino, and the Hard Rock Cafe. If you are at all a music-geek - this place is a must see. I think they probably have as much if not more "stuff" that what will be at the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. Guitars and clothing from many interesting musicians (Dolores O'Riordon for one....) Pretenders, Mary's Danish, Melissa Etheridge just to name a few female performers, tons and tons of stuff from male performers (an Elton John piano, a Stevie Ray Vaughn guitar). Way cool stuff. And in the casino they play what else.. rock music... so it was a good place to kill a few hours (and a few rolls of quarters) Also saw the Planet Hollywood there.. and drank this obnoxious concoction called the "Die Harder.." it was blue.... that's all I know ... it kicked my butt hard so we high tailed it back to the hotel pool for a nap. Which is pretty much where I spent the rest of the trip. Had to deal with incredibly rude flight attendants on both the trip there, and back (I won't mention the airline...) and John Tesh videos being played before takeoff.. BUT.... they did play a Sarah video on the trip back from Vegas. Gosh darnit it's good to be home! Well y'all.. I gotta go finish reading the digests from last week... . I did notice Vickie resurfaced --( I was beginning to wonder about you, girl! ) Hugs to all.... Amy ------------------------------ From: awphili@xs4all.nl Date: Mon, 24 Jul 95 21:10:51 Subject: Re: Ecto top-40 geek the boy wrote: > Albert sez: > >Michael Doyle wrote: > >>woj wrote: > >>>awphili@xs4all.nl sez: > > >>>>When Ecto was first created, I think it was a good idea to see top-40 > >>>>music as anti-Ecto, but this attitude might start to work against us > >>>>now. Is it not the desire of every Ectophile to see the top-40 filled > >>>>with Ecto quality music? > > >>>frankly, i don't really care what fills the top 40. i don't listen to > >>>it or pay attention to it. top 40 is a measure of commercial success. > >>>i'm interested in artistic success. if the two coincide, that's fine by > >>>me, but i'm not concerned if they don't. > > >>This brings up an interesting point. woj's pov is certainly valid, logical. > > >I think he is just stating a time-dependent fact. This kind of facts can > >change over time, if we allow them to. > > whoa there, albert! i'm not stating a fact, i'm stating how i feel > about mainstream music: to wit, i don't care what is or isn't popular. > that's not a fact, though it certainly is time-dependant as i have felt > differently in the past and i certainly will feel differently in the > future. It was meant as a compliment. I respect your feelings as facts, and you can tell me about them anytime they change. I will not judge them as being valid or logical. > Doug Mayo-Wells sez: > > >reason number one is that if i *really* like something (not just music, > >i also recommend films and books and art exhibits to anyone who shows > >the least glimmer of interest) i think that other people will probably > >find pleasure in it too, and i want to share it...particularly if it's > >something (like most ecto music) that's sufficiently non-mainstream > >that most people (even people who would like it) aren't likely to > >encounter on their own. that got kind of muddled, i hope it made sense. > > *bingo!* that's *exactly* how i feel. Me too! :) Albert - -- Albert W. Philipsen | "I am always thinking of your convenience, United Mooseheads Inc. | at least when I am not concerned with President | your education." -- Seth ------------------------------ From: awphili@xs4all.nl Date: Mon, 24 Jul 95 20:29:23 Subject: Re: TORI's RAINN needs help Even though I heartily agree with the general sentiments expressed in this message, there is one point I find extremely offensive. That is the use of the term "sexual violence". Sex and violence are two completely different things, and the use of this term just messes up people's minds. In my opinion, this is the cause of depressions in victims of rape and abuse. When the concepts of sex and violence get linked in this way, they will lose a great part of their joy. It is important to tell them that there was actually no sex involved, at least not using my definition. There can only be sex if it is desired by both partners. Anything else is violence. Even men can get abused in this way by women who do not really desire sex and do not tell the truth. Just listen to Nine Inch Nails, and you'll know what I mean... Albert - -- Albert W. Philipsen | "I am always thinking of your convenience, United Mooseheads Inc. | at least when I am not concerned with President | your education." -- Seth ------------------------------ From: Ulrich Grepel Date: Mon, 24 Jul 95 23:30:00 +0200 Subject: Re: October Project & Heather Nova (was Re: Phila Heat) Hi Rachel! you wrote: > Speaking of their August 15th list...Heather Nova's _Oyster_ is listed for > release that day!! I just discovered Heather last week and can't stop > listening to _Live From the Milky Way_. Could someone tell me what the main > differences are between ...Milky Way and Oyster? I really love "Sugar" and > "Verona" (I know "Sugar" isn't on Oyster :( ) and I'm curious whether the > general tone is more intense like these songs, or more subdued like the others > on ...Milky Way. Either way, I'm positive I'll buy the cd...I'm just > wondering. Well, both... The version of Sugar on the ...Milky Way album is quite 'remixed' (as much as this is possible on stage without being a and acting as a DJ) compared to the 'regular live' version (which can be found on 'blow'). Heather & Co. 'remixed' it even more on their latest European tour leg in April. The differences between Milky Way and Oyster are that MW is live, while Oyster is a studio album ;-). That is, Oyster has more production and Milky Way is rawer. I love both, but - if prefering one over the other is possible - prefer Heather's live albums (of which there are two) over her studio albums (of which there are two as well). Bye, Uli - -- "Ein 32-Bit-Betriebssystem fuer uns?" - "Wozu? Wir haben doch zwei mit 16." [IBM ad promoting OS/2] "Bah, ich habe 4 mit 8!" [comment from Sven Wachter] ------------------------------ From: Tommy Persson Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 01:20:24 +0200 Subject: Any interesting musical events in Scotland? I and some friends will be driving around mainly Scotland but maybe also northern England from 7 August to 23 August when we will attend Intersection (World Science Fiction Convention) in Glasgow. Are there any interesting musical events in Scotland during this period? Anything relevant in the Edinburgh Festival? Or is there anything really ecto-relevant in Great Britain during this period like a consert by Jane Siberry or something equally important? /Tommy Persson, Sweden ------------------------------ From: Sue Trowbridge Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 19:29:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Upcoming musical guests on late night talk shows LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN, CBS Mo 7/24 Amy Grant Tu 7/25 Natalie Merchant We 7/26 Bon Jovi Th 7/27 Gin Blossoms Fr 7/28 Bruce Hornsby Mo 7/31 Lyle Lovett Tu 8/1 Jimmy Buffett Th 8/3 The Allman Brothers Band THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO, NBC Mo 7/24 Alison Krauss Tu 7/25 Curtis Stigers We 7/26 Bjork Th 7/27 George Jones and Tammy Wynette Tu 8/1 John Tesh We 8/2 Brooks & Dunn LATE NIGHT WITH CONAN O'BRIEN, NBC Mo 7/24 Jennifer Trynin Tu 7/25 Cyndi Lauper, Luscious Jackson Fr 7/28 Jonathan Richman Tu 8/1 The Delevantes LATER WITH GREG KINNEAR, NBC Tu 8/1 Matthew Sweet See you in three weeks! - --Sue Trowbridge trow@access.digex.net +++ trow@charm.net http://www.access.digex.net/~trow/ Glorious musical moment of the month: The Foo Fighters, "Good Grief" ------------------------------ From: "Joseph Zitt" Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 20:00:57 +0000 Subject: Re: Ecto top-40 On 24 Jul 95 at 11:27, Jessica Skolnik wrote: > ... The best thrill, however, comes when i > share the music i really like, be it top-40 or non, and someone else > appreciates it. Yeah! Just last night, I played "The Mask and the Mirror" for someone who is running out today to get it. Very rewarding. I've actually been getting used to Dallas's PBS station -- I was dubious for a while, but when I flipped on the radio one morning and heard the Hapster's "Phobos", I got hooked -- haven't listened to anything other than KERA since. (Now if I only know what city I'll be living in *next* month...) - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \||| ||/ Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ Online Representative, Austin International Poetry Festival \| / Joe Zitt's Home Page\ ------------------------------ From: THE OLIVE-LOAF VIGILANTE Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 21:14:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: replying in the rain Hi! woj and I saw The Nields last Friday night, and they *rocked*. They played for 45 minutes and only did two songs from _Bob On The Ceiling_ (my two faves, "Be Nice To Me" and "James") -- the rest were all brand new. I recall not being impressed by the new songs they performed at the Required Listening show, but last night those same songs just blew me away. Folks, this band roolz. And they now have t-shirts for sale! I got one that has the summer tour dates on the back and "BE NICE TO ME" in huge black letters on a yellow background on front. Chuck, am I misremembering that Sans Cherubs are opening/have opened for The Nields sometime soon or recently? Can you refresh my memory? We're going to see them in Westport on August 11, and for some reason I'm thinking that you guys will be playing then too... Albert responded: >Meredith, who is always nicely disagreeing with my ideas so I can explain >them further, wrote: :) Informed Discourse R Us. Or something. >This is the "attitude" or belief I was referring to, that I would like to >see changed. Beliefs create reality. That is elementary Seth theory. Aha. So you're saying you wish music wouldn't get compromised for the sake of selling more records, and that once more records were sold the atmosphere of intimate shows in tiny venues wouldn't change as the performance spaces and audiences got larger. I can agree with that. My problem is that I'm too much of a realist: I don't see the glass as half full or half empty, it's just twice as big as it needs to be. :) >No, I would like Ecto music to remain music wich is somehow ahead of its >time. This does not mean that the quality of music could not continuously >improve. On Ecto, we would create the quality of the top-40 of the future, >while the top-40 could consist of music with Ecto quality from the past. >(I'm just equating qualities here, not actual music.) Hmmmm.... interesting vision. >Weird. Fall from grace does not make sense to me at all. :-P It's an expression meaning loss of innocence, a falling lower in esteem, that sort of thing. chuck regurgitated: Good Goddess. Next time Sarah comes round, can I go to the show with you? ;> Mitch noted: >WRT Meredith's first image of KaTe in a dream: sounds not that different >from reality, save for the hair color. Actually it wasn't a dream, but the picture I got in my head of the singer as I heard the song. And when she's not hennaing her hair, it can look almost black, so it really wasn't far off at all. :) Michael added: >Why do we do this? Is it that the our taste in music is part of our >identity, and we seek to make the rest of the world a little more like >ourselves? Is it simply that we have found joy in this music and virtuosly >attempt to increase the joy of others by sharing it? Is it that we want >others to think we're smart or hip when we expose them to enjoyable music >they haven't heard before? Is it the thrill of saying, "I knew them when?" >Is it that we want to hear our favorite songs when we turn on the radio -- >because usually they don't play our favorite songs? Are we seeking the >acceptance and validation of the mass culture? Yes to all of the above, except for the points about people thinking I'm hip and acceptance by mass culture. I'm proud of the fact that I have mostly no clue about what's going on with the music charts, hit movies, top TV shows, etc. I *like* being different. >Or do we simply want our favorite artists to achieve commercial success so >they won't starve and can keep making the music that enraptures our ears, >inflames our minds and speaks to our souls? From what I've seen, commercial success is a double-edged sword. Yes, if they make it big lots of people will be exposed to brilliance, and the musicians will have the money to continue working on their art; but all too often when this happens they end up compromising their vision for the wishes of the record companies, or they get so wrapped up in seeing their faces on the cover of magazines and partying after shows that they become incapable of producing music of the caliber that made them big in the first place. Or, in the worst cases, the success just plain ends up destroying them (witness Kurt Cobain -- while I personally can't stand his music, I do acknowledge that for what it was, it was innovative and quite good). >I don't suggest any one of these as an answer. I just wonder at the passion >that has made me (and probably a few of you) mix tapes, trade CDs, drag >unbelievers to concerts, spew litanies of band histories and performances, You're right, it *is* a passion. Ain't it grand? :> woj counted: >as for the second point, i typically buy anywhere from 5 to 10 discs a >week, when i'm not being a good boy staying out of record stores. And when Meredith doesn't shame him into saving his money for other important things, like car insurance, rent, and food. I gather he wasn't a good boy today -- since he's home all week I'm going to have a heluva time keeping my eye on him. ;> >whatever. can't say that i get a thrill out of listening to stuff that >no one else knows about other than the thrill of listening to something >that i enjoy. You get a thrill out of something? >snobbery ("top 40 sucks by definition" or "the music *i* listen to is >inherently superior to that which you listen to"), on the other hand, >is something that we can all do without. Agreed 100%... Nick reported: >Thought I'd drop in and mention that Katell Keineg will be joining Natalie >on this performance of "Carnival".... :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) One of my colleagues was on vacation in California the past two weeks, and she came back today raving about this wonderful CD they listened to in the car the whole time by someone named Natalie Merchant, and did I know anything more about her? Valerie informed us all: >10,000 maniacs (The Mary Ramsey incarnation) will be on AOL this Saturday, >July 29 at 8pm ET, in Center Stage (keyword: Center Stage). It should be >interesting... Neat! Looks like another KaTemas activity to me! Speaking of which, if you're even thinking about coming down, send e-mail! Looks like it's going to be a small gathering this year, but a good one... +==========================================================================+ |Meredith Tarr meth@delphi.com| |Boonton, NJ USA finger info at: mtarr@eagle.wesleyan.edu| +==========================================================================+ |"We now return you to your regular time. Please take all of your belong- | | ings in order to avoid a paradox." -- Uncle Bob | +==========================================================================+ ------------------------------ From: Robert Lovejoy Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 21:56:46 -0400 Subject: AG aol name game Folks, There appears to be a change in the name for AG's net access. Send email to Kevin & crew at auralgrati@aol.com - no confusing spaces! RL ------------------------------ From: Damon_Harper@mindlink.bc.ca (Damon Harper) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 21:23:51 -0600 Subject: sexual violence? hmmm... albert's objection to the term "sexual violence" reminds me of a theory my arts one teacher mentioned once in first year. the idea is that human "sexual violence" is partly a biological thing. apparently, in the brains of species more dependent on smell than sight, the lower (or first) mammals, a major part of the brain is the olfactory bulb, and the big "reaction" centres of the brain grew around and in conjunction with this, so that reactions were triggered by smells. as the primates started to adopt their particular lifestyle, smell became less important and vision became paramount, so the visual centres of the brain developed enormously to the detriment of the olfactory. So this olfactory bulb gradually shrunk, bringing the reaction centres of the brain physically closer together (i guess the visual centres are located elsewhere) and causing signals to "cross wires" more and more frequently, not as well controlled by the olfactory bulb, which used to be central to the process. Anyway, this supposedly is responsible for the weird linkings of logically opposing emotions, such as sexuality and violence, in the higher primates, especially humanity. i make no claims as to the veracity of this theory; i can only say that it was mentioned once or twice by a professor who seemed a pretty accurate sort of person. anyway, i thought it might be of interest regarding the "sexual violence" thing.... it's certainly *not* an excuse for any kind of violence whatsoever, but maybe a partial explanation. if anyone knows for certain how true/supported this idea actually is, let me know, i'd be interested to find out. ob music: heard on dewy-fields (bel canto mailing list, which i just recently joined and which is pretty quiet) that bel canto are supposed to have a new album coming out in early autumn! yay! i fell in love with bel canto the moment i heard the sampler suzanne sent me from "shimmering, warm & bright" ages ago... i've managed to find their first two albums here, but only found an import version of sw&b for around $32 CDN, which is unacceptable, considering i usually pay no more than $16 for a cd, often less. well, sometimes more. but $32??? eeek. ah well :) hugs on the way to comfort... damon _/\_ Damon_Harper@mindlink.bc.ca __\ /__ "Doo doo doo doo, doo doo doo doo, nomad@acca.nmsu.edu \ / doo doo doo doo, doo doo doo doo." Vancouver, BC, CANADA |/||\| - The Cranberries, http://rever.nmsu.edu/~nomad/paukarut.htm "Ode To My Family" ------------------------------ From: Michael Matthews Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 03:30:02 -0400 Subject: Today's your birthday, friends... i*i*i*i*i*i i*i*i*i*i*i *************** *****HAPPY********* **************BIRTHDAY********* *************************************************** *************************************************************************** ***************** David Koehler (drk@leland.stanford.edu) ***************** ********************** Tom Johnson (tj@cs.ucla.edu) *********************** *************************************************************************** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- David Koehler Mon July 25 1966 Leo Tom Johnson Mon July 25 1966 Leo Alvin Brattli Sun July 27 1969 Lefthanded Christy Eger Smith Thu July 27 1944 Horse Crossing Rob Woiccak (woj) Sun July 28 1968 children at play John Relph Sat July 28 1962 Leo Bob Kollmeyer Wed July 28 1971 Leo Steve Lusky Tue July 29 1952 Bike! Kate Bush Wed July 30 1958 God Chuck Smith Wed July 30 1958 Reboot Yves Denneulin Fri July 30 1971 Lion-Heart Joel Kenyon Wed July 31 1963 Leo Eli Brandt August 05 Leo Martin Bridges Sat August 08 1970 BigGuy Happy Rhodes Mon August 09 1965 HolyGhost Martin Dougiamas Wed August 20 1969 Positive Tori Amos Thu August 22 1963 Leo Sam Warren Tue August 22 1961 Leo Henk Van Wulpen Sat August 22 1970 Leo - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ From: phanes@community.net (Xenophanes!) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 01:32:23 -0700 Subject: Ivy 'Lo there, people's! Hast thou grt music people heard of this lit'l band? I saw them at a free concert in 'frisco put on by the local modern station, Live 105. They were outstanding. A french female lead singer (who's not only a wonderful Lush-like singer, but also a hotty), with at this point, a lead guitarist and back-up vocalist, back-up guitarist, bassist, and a drummer. Kinda a mix between Lush and Smiths or Psycho Furs. We saw them about 45 minutes later at the Wherehouse there and met them and got their Hancocks and such. It was a grt day! Their bigest hit is called *Get Enough*. They have a domestically released but rare ep and the new album is called *Realistic*. Talk ta thous later... Xenophanes! "Sing while you may!" >:-) -- Edward Qa-Spel "Set me free, Remotivate me!" >:-( -- Martin L. Gore Edward (Ward) Ernest Kadel III phanes@community.net ------------------------------ From: "Matt Bittner" Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 08:44:53 CDT Subject: Something out of the ordinary... ...if you can consider ecto ordinary!:-) Anyway, does anybody else listen to PDQ Bach? This stuff is too great. Went to the new - and only - Barnes and Noble, here in Omaha. I went to look around, but I was on a quest. I have been listening again to my PDQ Bach stuff, and new there was either a "Biography" of PDQ, or a biography of his hugest "fan", Professor Peter Schickele. Went into the Music books section (as opposed to the Music music section, since they sell CD's and such), and found _The Definitive Biography of P.D.Q. Bach_, written by Schickele. I hadn't gotten through the Preface before busting a gut! This stuff is too fun. I'm in the beginning of the first chapter, and find that I can't read it at work, without my co-workers thinking I'm even weirder than I already am. I have three CD's, plus a couple of LP's. I hope to replace the LP's with CD's some day. The three CD's are _Music for an Awful Lot of Winds and Percussion_, _1712 Overture & Other Musical Assaults_ and _Oedipus Tex & Other Choral Calamities_. The LP's are _The Intimate PDQ Bach_, and (I think) _Blauesgras_. I would recommend anybody who wants to laugh at music to try it out. Not that it means anything, but from 1989-1991 he consistently took the Grammy for best humorous album. He is one of the few that deserve a grammy. I'll admit, a lot of the humor requires an understanding of music, sometimes technically. Unusual chord changes, bizarre time changes, etc. all make you think of "gads, that works, but it's not supposed to". I even find it hard listening to any of PDQ's work at work without laughing hard and loud. So, anybody else listen to PDQ? Anybody else find anything as funny? My first exposure to PDQ was through a choral group I belonged to in high school. The Chamber Singers sang mostly madrigals, and our wonderful instructor had us perform "The Queen to Me a Royal Pain Doth Give". We took it to a state competition, and won first place. Even then it was difficult singing it without cracking up. I'm glad the judges had a sense of humor. Matt Bittner | "The secret of meba@cso.com | life is enjoying the Omaha, Nebraska | passage of time." ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V2 #165 ************************** ======================================================================== Please send any questions or comments about the list to ecto-owner@nsmx.rutgers.edu