Errors-To: ecto-owner@ns1.rutgers.edu Reply-To: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu Sender: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu From: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu To: ecto-request@ns1.rutgers.edu Bcc: ecto-digest-outbound@ns1.rutgers.edu Subject: ecto #811 ecto, Number 811 Monday, 18 October 1993 Today's Topics: *-----------------* Re: gross Re: the death of 21st century sound, and other stories Re: Does Happy Rhodes have a new address? Re: I vote that its not up to me (or you) whether Happy wants to Re: Raleigh, NC Re: JS, SI, and me (Was: woody allen, etc. -- why??) My first Happy! The Police - Message in a Box some OLD stuff woody allen-->love&death-->js.. please read carefully... Borders sucks in Chicago Re: Vollen./Saving Daylight/VR-to-RL/Tucson/Serveert I promise to only mention Margot Smith once... :-) Re: please read carefully... ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 3:42:49 EDT From: WretchAwry Subject: Re: gross MJM notices the ectosyncronicity: > No sooner does Klaus post this: > |The source of this songs was quoted as being from the movie "Baraka". > |Does anyone have any information about this movie? > > than Neal posts this: > > |Last night I saw the film Baraka, which features the music of Dead Can > |Dance as well as a host of others. > > Man, this group is on top of things, it's GROSS!!!! > You people are *just* too much. Who *needs* newspapers! :-) I thought that was pretty darn cool too! I couldn't find "Baraka" playing at the Chicago Film Fest, which is going on right now. I hope I haven't missed it, and I'll keep an eye out for it in the future. "The Piano" is the highlight of the Fest and will be the last film shown. I haven't even tried for tickets because I imagine it's sold out. It'll be back soon though. Mike, pray tell, why weren't you at The Story? Hmmm? > -mjminacontinuinglyexpandedstateofawe Me too! :-) This deserves more attention: > and ill be in anaheim dec 13-17 any ectopeople > out there? shark? ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 4:06:54 EDT From: WretchAwry Subject: Re: the death of 21st century sound, and other stories brni, the now two-armed bandit, bums: > because emily is going (as i speak/type) back up to rochester. > sigh. :-( I'm sorry for you brni :-( > first, the not: a friend of mine called me yesterday > from the eastern pennsylvania psychiatric inst. she > apparently had a real bad episode the other day, which is really > a shame since she seemed to be getting her life under > control really well since she got out of the above inst. > only 1.5 months ago. :( so i'll be visiting her later today. I'm sorry for your friend too, but it's not too suprising. Everyone working on/out psychiatric problems are going to have relapses. Perhaps the strain of everybody thinking that she seemed to be getting her life under control did it this time. The fear of not being able to "hold on" and the pain/shame for themselves, coupled with the fear of disappointing others is pretty common. You're a really good friend to go visit her, good for you! Just always let her know that you'll support her no matter what phase of recovery she's in, good times or bad times, and try not to tell *her* that her relapses are a shame. It probably wasn't the first and it very probably won't be the last. *HUG* > the other bad news is that 21st century sound in bryn mawr, pa, > is going out of business. I'm disappointed too, Lenny's a really nice guy. Doug and I were lucky enough to meet him there at the store when we saw Happy in Philly. > incidentally: this is the first thing i've typed since august 4th that > has used both hands. yes folks, i am out of my sling, and even tho i > still can't use my arm, i can put my hand in the right place on the > keyboard and TYPE WITH 2 HANDS AT THE SAME TIME!!!!!! YAY!! Congratulations, brni! Vickie ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 4:22:41 EDT From: WretchAwry Subject: Re: Does Happy Rhodes have a new address? Jesse Ellenbogen writes: > I tried sending an EctoWare payment for DepthGauge & to get HR's "Warpaint" > CD. The P.O. returned my letter marked "Attempted Not Known, Return to > Sender." Is there a new address? The address I tried I got from the info > on DepthGague 2.5.4: > > P.O. Box 8658 > Albany, NY 12208 Wow, I'll have to tell H&K about this, because they intended for that address to be available for a *long* time to come, considering that it's on all the albums. I'm sorry you had trouble Jesse, here is the current address: Happy Rhodes EctoWare Payment c/o Aural Gratification P. O. Box 380 Bearsville, NY 12409-0380 > I'm anxious to give the album a listen. Has HR signed with a label yet? > Any info appreciated! Good for you! Nope, she hasn't signed with a major label yet. I'll send you the most recent FAQ. Vickie ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 5:00:13 EDT From: WretchAwry Subject: Re: I vote that its not up to me (or you) whether Happy wants to Marc Power writes: > Happy has a sort of lurker status anyway, I seem to recall > (was it Vickie?) someone has shown her some ecto traffic. Happy's seen a ton of Ecto. I once sent her an entire floppy full. Jessica's sent her printouts too. She thinks it's great, but she wouldn't join. She doesn't have time, for one thing. I think she would like to keep up better with the various topics, things that don't have anything to do with her personally, but there's no way. They *do* have an account, but it costs them money and they can't spend the money. > She has a sort of poster status also, sending occasional > messages to ecto. Many times, and she will again when she has something to tell us. > P.s. Just got Rhodesongs - who are the other people in the photos? > Pat Tessitore? Kevin? Can anybody in the know, provide a key? We need more information to make this key as informational as possible. Going clockwise from top left: 1) H at the Mann(?) Theater in Philadelphia (photo by Bob Brown) 2) Cover of Rhodes I (painted by Happy) 3) H, full face, used on Equipoise cover (photo by Bill Demichele) 4) H at the University Museum Auditorium, Philadelphia (by Joe Dembski) 5) H, outside shot (photo by Kevin) 6) H at the Mann(?) (by Bob Brown?) 7) Kevin Bartlett (photo by Laverne Kane?) 8) Cover of Ecto *cassette*, painted by Happy 9) H at UMA, Philly (photo by Joe Dembski) 10) H&K 11) B & W cover of Warpaint 12) H at UMA, Philly (photo by Joe Dembski) 13) H at Cathedral Sound Studios 14) H & Pat Tessitore at Cathedral Sound Studios 3 Middle shots 15) Cover of Rhodes II, painted by Happy 16) Full shot of Turk, monster on Equipoise, painted by Happy 17) Happy at home(?) If anyone (Bob Brown?) has any corrections or additions, let me know. Vickie ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 10:27:20 BST From: GTP10@phx.cam.ac.uk Subject: Re: Raleigh, NC Greg O'Rear said: > I'm gonna be visiting the Raleigh, NC, area at the end of this month. Any > Ectophiles (or Toriphiles or LoveHounds) there? Can anyone recommend good > music stores? I know there's a Schoolkids' in Chapel Hill (we have the other > one here in Gainesville). Perhaps I can actually find a store that carries > Happy CDs. Well, I used to live in Raleigh, NC. I was a visiting assistant professor at NCSU for a year (1990-91). I still go back there once or twice a year, most recently in September. There is actually a branch of Schoolkid's in Raleigh - on Hillsborough Street just off the NCSU campus. There is also a quite cool (i.e. cheap and with an interesting selection) record store in the Mission Valley mall (the other side of the NCSU campus) - it's name escapes me for the moment. Neither of these, nor indeed any other stores in Raleigh, stocked any Happy CDs in September - though most of them have at least heard of her now ;-) Geoff Parks ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 06:10:23 EDT From: woj@remus.rutgers.edu (not just the size of a walnut) Subject: Re: JS, SI, and me (Was: woody allen, etc. -- why??) WretchAwry sez: >That's so often part of Jane's subtle charm. Things sound familiar, but >not....quite... ...there? +w ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 10:36:37 -0500 From: colford@clsn1231.noble.mass.edu (Michael Colford) Subject: My first Happy! Well, even though I have already posted a few times, I now feel I can properly introduce myself. Why? Because I have purchased my first Happy Rhodes disc! My name is Michael Colford. I am a gay, 31 year old male (born May 16, 1962) who lives in Melrose, Massachusetts. I worship Jane Siberry, Kate Bush, Tori Amos, Nine inch nails (for some variety) and lots, lots more. My mother's odd, distant relative has a foreign name that I can't spell. Sparrows fly faster than god. This past weekend, I checked a local used CD store for Happy Rhodes. Lo and behold! They had Equipoise, and I quickly snatched it up! I've only listened to it once, but I must say I'm very surprised and impressed. I'm not sure what I expected from reading the posts on ecto, but Happy is certainly something! I will be looking for her other works. I really enjoy ecto, despite the huge volume of mail that is bandied about. I got Jane Siberry tickets over the weekend, my life is now complete. Thanks for reading! Michael Oops! -------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Colford | Reading Public Library | Reading, Massachusetts colford@college.noble.mass.edu | *North of Boston Library Exchange* -------------------------------------------------------------------- ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 09:12:26 CET From: Ilka Heber Subject: The Police - Message in a Box Hi Everybody, on Saturday I spent 90 DM and bought The Police's boxed set. It includes EVERYTHING The Police have ever recorded. Actually, I have liked their music quite a lot for quite a while. Still I didn't own *any* of their albums. I had them in my hands lots of times and always decided not to buy any, and now I finally know what I've been waiting for all the time!!! = ) No, really, I think that set is well worth the money. It contains 4 CDs which are all packed with music (all about 70 minutes long). It also has a booklet with some information about the band and photographs. The format is a bit unusual for a boxed set. The package holds two CDs above each other in the front cover and two in the back. The middle is the booklet. Anyway, that's all! Have a good time, everybody! Ilka = ) ======================================================================== From: klaus@inphobos.wupper.de Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1993 19:33:27 Subject: some OLD stuff Thanks to everyone who has been klausing while I was too busy with other stuff, although I don't really know what I was doing so busily. Here's some very old stuff: Sue> Klaus asked about the Motels. I don't think they would really > be considered ectofood -- more AOR (album-oriented rock) or new wave. Thanks for the info, Sue! You're right about the music, but I thought that some Ectophile would like them too. Sue> (but apparently were huge in Australia!). Ah, that's why I only find Australian imports in the catalogue. Mitch about the Motels: > but I certainly must dissent from Klaus' likening thereof to early Cyndi > Lauper. IMHO WIVH, they have essentially no shared qualities.) There are two songs on the album I have, that remind me about her and it was the only comparison that I could find. Jeff> Mike has just provided the first two scans of the EctoForm. Thanks for the GIFs! The kite looks great!!! Sgt. Bob about Happy Promotion: > Albert, Twinbrook is no longer the AG distributor. Basically, they > do not have one in Europe. In order for them to obtain distribution, they > must have demand. Simply go to your record store and ask about Happy. > If they don't know about her, tell them. Maybe this explains my latest experience with ordering Happy's albums locally, if my assumption that "Twinbrook" had been supplying Europe with albums? And more on this topic: Back in April I ordered "Warpaint" from a local CD mail order chain, who had listed this album in one of their monthly catalogues as an import. Not that I needed one more, just to see how long it would take them. In the following months the album was always listed as "still to be delivered". Now my order was cancelled because it was said to be out of production. So maybe their usual distributor for imports doesn't carry it anymore. On the other hand, "Warpaint" and "Equipoise" both are listed in the recent CD International catalogue, so I've now tried to order "Equipoise". They now also provide their new catalogue on CD-ROM, but there's only "Warpaint" on it with the same errors like in the first ad ("Wirds weren't made for cowards"). It looks like noone read my letter with corrections. :( Neal> we recently finished working our way through a hilarious game called > "Day of the Tentacle". Now that's a coincidence. I got my copy around the time you wrote that. We haven't found the time to get very far; but we just had a nice chat with a talking horse. Joe> This strikes me as obvious enough that someone's probably already > discovered a good reason why not, but: Would it be possible to put the > Newsletter up for ftp, with textfiles of the text and GIFs of the > graphics? I'll put them into the Encyclopedia when I find the time. (next year?) Thanks to Angelos and Jeff for providing us with the lyrics of summer! Claudia and I compared both versions with we heard on the album, so here is the 3rd version of "Summer". "Summer" Ooh, to feel the wind That rushes through those lips With an ever quickening pace Will I always see that face Coming for my love to say Go away Go away. Oh, oh away, oh away, oh away, oh away, oh away, oh away.... There are no words to say When you look I look away While in my mind I dream That you die to be with me But I won't let my weakness show I will never let you know So leave me alone Let me alone. Oh, oh away, oh away, oh away, oh away, oh away, oh away.... _____ Klaus "Cosmic Vagabond" Kluge --*-- klaus@inphobos.wupper.de If you catch me in the mood, I'm your sister, mother, beast or lover possibly you'll find me inmidst this multitude. -Dob Russkin- ======================================================================== Date: 18 Oct 93 13:09:30 EDT From: Mike Mendelson Subject: woody allen-->love&death-->js.. Vickie viscoses: |and a one-page feature on an artist named "Lois." The article makes |her sound pretty cool, hhas anyone heard her? She hhas an album |called _Strumpet_ on K Records, and she's from Washington, DC. It |says "...her haunted balleds and lo-fi folk rockers sparkle within |the disc's rough production. Lois keeps her cool whether she's |baring her inner thoughts about inner thoughts or taking pokes at |media coverage of the feminist, punk rock grrrl scene." About the Yes! Holly brought me back a tape of Lois when she went to Mpls. I listened to it a few times. It's interesting, but a little gritty and the arrangements are pretty stark. Not a lot of depth in the instrumentation. Reminds me a bit of the Marine Girls for starkness. I'll try to listen to it again so I can give more detailed impressions. This is the kind of thing that Woj is *way* better at describing than me. |Er, can you expand my/my dictionary's vocabulary and tell me what |"kvell" means? Well, it's a Yiddish word, and I think it means "feel really emotionally good and proud", like kvelling over your kids doing something you're proud of. Sometimes words like that just pop into my sentences and there isn't a whole shmansis I can do about it. Has anyone heard of any other Jane dates? I hope she comes to the Windy City. -mjm ======================================================================== Date: 18 Oct 93 13:09:45 EDT From: Mike Mendelson Subject: please read carefully... Uli Eulogizes |> |When's the last time a world hit was in Greek? Or turkish? Or finnish? |> |> Good question. I would say this was just another failure of the |> (in particular, though not exclusively, American) music industry, |> radio, etc. in promoting or "feeding" listeners anything other |> than predictable hits (for the most part). It reminds of a girl | |This sounds a bit ethnocentric again ;-)... why is it that US radio |stations define world hits? Hey! I said "in particular but not exclusively", didn't I. I was trying to denigrate the American Music industry but would be happy to denigrate all music industries equally. WHY DO YOU THINK I'M IMPLYING THAT US STATIONS ALONE DEFINE HITS?? Obviously, all radio stations (and other purveyors of music) define hits... please READ what I'm saying rather than jumping on the ethnocentric bandwagon. "another failure of the music industry" does not imply anything about countries. "in particular american" means I *know for a fact* that the Am. Mus. Industry generally sucks big donkey dicks when it comes to promoting non-automatic hits and the like. I don't know as much about other countries. They reserve the right to be just as bad about it. -mjm ======================================================================== Date: 18 Oct 93 13:09:58 EDT From: Mike Mendelson Subject: Borders sucks in Chicago brni with the constipated vowels laments: |apparently, lenny's being driven out of business by border's books |and music, which recently opened up nearby, in a more convenient |location with a bigger sign and a larger space, basically doing |now what he had broken the ground for in the beginning. :( I'm shocked. The Borders store in Northbrook is right across from Barnes and Noble. B&N is easily a better bookstore, and the music section of Borders is pathetically understocked, and hideously over-priced ($15.99, $16.99, etc.). Terrible waste of real-estate. It's hard for me to imagine a Borders store putting *anything* out of business. SHOCKING! -mjm ======================================================================== Subject: Re: Vollen./Saving Daylight/VR-to-RL/Tucson/Serveert Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 14:04:50 -0400 From: jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu >-==- >pas@math.ams.org (Paula Shanks): >>Daylight Savings time STARTS 2 a.m. the FIRST SUNDAY in April, and ends >>the LAST SUNDAY in October. > >Except in Arizona, where daylight savings starts and ends at the same >instant so we don't bother to change our clocks. :) Is there another >state that doesn't have daylight savings? Hawaii maybe? I'm waiting >for all the cable programs to be on an hour later when the other >states change... Indiana is also rather screwed up. They're rather cuspish in terms of longitude wrt DST. Basically, the state stays on EST year-round. Thus, during the summer, Indiana sets its clocks the way we folks on the East Coast do. During the summer, Indiana clocks match the central time zone, ie they're an hour behind the East Coast. What makes all this strange is that it only applies to most of the state. Up north, particularly Lake and Porter counties are (aka "The Region") are actually part of the vast amusement park known as Chicagoland (where they hell did they come up with that nickname anyway?) Because it would be rather heinous for all the folks who live in Gary, amongst other places, and commute to Chi-town to have their clocks an hour ahead for most of the year, The Region uses CST/CDT to match up with Chicago. I've never been particularly certain how it's officially set up (ie if Lake and Porter and perhaps another county or two have mandated to use CST/CDT, or if the state government so set it, or what). Down south, there's a similar problem with Louisville (say after me, "loo-vul"). It's right across the Ohio River from Indiana and some of its suburbs are, not surprisingly, on the IN side of the river. What's amazing to me is how many hoosiers don't know the actual details of the way their clock setup works! Jeff ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 01:54:09 +1000 (AEST) From: anthony@xymox.apana.org.au (Anthony Horan) Subject: I promise to only mention Margot Smith once... :-) I'm BACK!!! [Insert appropriate SFX here for those who noticed I was gone....] It's been busier than a Clinton hairdo here the last five days or so, and my news spool has accumulated a whopping 6Mb of news, icluding half a meg of Ecto. Yipes. My apologies to those who have one of the 70-odd messages waiting in my personal mailbox, I hope to clear the backlog by tomorrow night. Basically I've been laden down with fill-in work for a flu-ridden friend, in addition to my normal 34 jobs (well, three, actually... :-), and by three birthday parties, a Margot gig, and a brought-forward deadline for a 1500 word article on a band I don't especially like. :) Klausarama: ~~~~~~~~~~~ I told Philip Sainty about that person I promised to mention only once; > > now out in New Zealand! Buy buy buy, tell your friends, get them to buy too. > > It's on EMI. To which he replied; > Funnily enough, not five minutes after I read this, your earlier review of > SWTL appeared on the BBS here at Vic. :-) Really? That's taken a while - and just in time for the NZ release of the album! Is there some sort of digital delay network operating in conjunction with a record release database there, or was it just a Fido gate of aus.music? :-) > I will most definitely be checking my bank account! You most definitely will not be disappointed. > (I'm also looking forward to that sampler :):) It's coming, honest! I'm sorry - there are people on rdt who hate me and the suburb I live in because they're still waiting for Tori tapes from me which I just haven't been able to get organised enough or find time enough to do. But I'm getting to them. All of them. Including yours! Hopefully only a few weeks more... > > > NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!!!! > > > AMONGST OUR WEAPONRY ARE SUCH DIVERSE ELEMENTS AS...... > > THE COMFY CHAIR!!!!!! CARDINAL FANG, PLEASE READ THE CHARGES.... Chris Boekerates about the once-named person whose initials are MS; > Geeze I pick great times to leave the country don't I :) > > Nice story ... I'll have to make sure I go and see her when I get back ... She'll be bigger than U2 by then... :-) Michael tastefully declares; > As I wade through my messages in E-mail, the Breeders' _Cannonball_ blisters > its way across the airwaves. Isn't that a great tune? It's one of the songs of the year. Shame about the rest of the album. A cross-eyed and painless Meri writes; > I'm back. I know the feeling. Welcome back. I was away too, so I didn't notice you'd left! > THREE HUNDRED AND FIFTY-SEVEN MESSAGES there were when I logged back on! > 321 of those were from ecto. Goddess, don't you all have lives??? ;> Yipes, you had more than me! I managed only 248! Alan Ezustizes; > Some bands have "liasons", computer geeks who read newsgroups and > mailing lists and forward stuff of interest to the band members. Vickie > already does this for Happy. I can't seem to reconcile the phrase "computer geek" with Vickie! :-) Troy Shadbolterates; > Needless to say, I redirected my anger and left Tower with Toni Childs, > the Moon Seven Times, and Julia Fordham. All on sale! M7x is running at No. 2 for me this year in the fave album stakes, after Margot Smith's album. Number 3 is Bjork. The rest are undecided. (Whoops, that's twice I've mentioned her. :-) Michael Peskurafies; > The highlight of this week was last night's poetry reading by our > very own Neile Graham, "wild-eyed poetradical" from the rocky Canadian > shore. I think she's quite an excellent poet. Anyway, the small > theatre was packed; and we also heard another local author, Lydia > Minatoya, read her work. Wish I could have been there for that - I agree, Neile is indeed quite an excellent poet, going by the small amount of it I've seen. I can't wait for the book! Uli uli's; > To add to the fun here's some poetry that can be compiled and > run and then even read on machines that are little-endian > (i.e. that store the most significant byte of a word first). > Unfortunately (;-)) PC's don't belong into this category. > And your computer should use the ASCII character set. > Anyhow, here's the thing you might want to feed into your > C compiler: I fed that to my C compiler (Amiga SAS/C 6.3) and upon running it got this; Onteg sfrtdt a fCrsmsm relv aet epersssdosnep defutgy aprrdei erte. fe aaurutedvssO h ,rwscnsea a fCrsmsm relv aet epersssdosnep defutgy totrl oe laii ec ads aprrdei erte. fe aaurutedvssO h ,rwtidef a fCrsmsm relv aet epersssdosnep defutgy trefec es sorcligbtotrl oe laii ec ads aprrdei erte. Err... et tu, Amiga. And finally, a certain P.Cohen says of Mr Gabriel; > Well, it seems that as many of our favorites get older, making rock records > becomes less and less of a priority with them. I also agree that "Us" isn't > worth a 6 year wait. Put it this way, at least there was a shorter gap than > between Eno's last two rock records. I liked "Us" a lot more than "So". Just my personal view, I know of many who disagree. Incidentally, Margot is after both Peter Gabriel and Brian Eno to produce her next album. She doesn't think EMI will pay for it. I think she's right. But the combination would be astounding... That's all from this bug-eyed monster. On to the 1200 messages in rec.arts.movies.... :-) Anthony ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anthony Horan, Melbourne Australia - anthony@xymox.apana.org.au "I kind of feel like I'm Metallica..." - Tori Amos on the perils of long tours, November 1992 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 14:38:44 EDT From: mojzes@monet.rutgers.edu (brni) Subject: Re: please read carefully... hi all, i would like to take a moment to offer my feelings about the music industry sucks/you're being ethnocentric/why germans sing in english/Dog only knows what else discussions. it seems to me that we are all pretty much in agreement here, but that, due to some careless phrasing way back when and some (non-deliberate) misreadings, things have started getting a little heated. as products of our culture, there are certain ethnocentricities and assumptions and so on that will persist even in persons who are decidedly anti-ethonocentric, etc. the same is true with racism and sexism. for example, i have seen many a feminist woman say or do things that, were they to observe this in others, they would label as sexist. this is done on an unconscious level. the problem then becomes "what do I do when I witness something of this sort?" certainly it is important to point these things out. however, a person who has pointed out to them that they have acted out a certain bias, *especially* if that person is ethically opposed to biases of that sort, will result in an immediate defensiveness that often inhibits a reasonable discussion of the matter. i know this, because thats how i get. sometimes these discussions degenerate into "did not/did too" debates, or even worse, "am not/are too." i fear that we are at the brink of entering "did not/did too"ness. in order to avoid this, i think that we should all step back for a moment and breathe deeply. ok. now. it is important for us all to realize that when someone says something that someone else deems ethnocentric, sexist, racist, anthropomocentric, phallo-logocentric, or whatever, doesn't mean that they are ethnocentric, et al, themselves. what it means is that they are (necessarily) participants in a system of the production of meanings which (necessarily) makes assumptions, classification, implications, and simplifications (which is not to say that the specific cultural assumptions that we are discussing are necessary or desirable, and also not to say that they are unchangable, given time and effort). jargon aside, what that means is that we all slip up, some time or another, and fall back into doing what we are told to do by the television set. it is not a measure of bad character to slip up. it is also important for people to realize that, hey, it happens. when it happens, it is important to point this out to the person (who may be blind to it) in a respectful way (e.g. "are you aware that when you say x you are implying y" or something, rather than "i really get pissed off when i hear someone saying x!"). this will make it less likely to bring out defensiveness in the person. it is also important for the person being so addressed that just because s/he didn't mean anything bad doesn't mean that there isn't a good reason for someone to take exception to her/his remark. when all parties to a discussion can do this, a lot more real progress can be made toward understanding, self-improvement, and the improvement of the world. special thanks to kerry kilburn of POLITICS list and VAL-L list for teaching what i should have known all along. oh, hey, this might be a good time to advertise VAL-L, which is a list for "the commentary of valentine michael smith," (the main character of _stranger in a strange land_). val writes personal essays and commentary on the situations in central and eastern europe, concentrating on russia and yugoslavia. it is a low-flame environment, characterized by reasonableness and mutual respect, which is why, i think, that those on ecto who are politically minded might find VAL-L an interesting place. the scope of discussion is generally political, but there are no restrictions on topic. val asks only that we play nice. :) the address is val-l@ucf1vm.bitnet. to subscribe, send a message to listserv@ucf1vm.bitnet with the following message: subscribe val-l [your name] for those of you who made it all the way through this, thanks for your patients. :) c ya brni ======================================================================== The ecto archives are on hardees.rutgers.edu in ~ftp/pub/hr. There is an INDEX file explaining what is where. Feel free to send me things you'd like to have added. -- jessica (jessica@ns1.rutgers.edu)