16-Nov-91 6:41:59-GMT,22949;000000000001 Received: from athos.rutgers.edu by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.4/3.08) id AA20663; Sat, 16 Nov 91 01:08:39 EST Received: by athos.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.4/3.08) id AA09173; Sat, 16 Nov 91 01:07:59 EST Date: Sat, 16 Nov 91 01:07:59 EST Message-Id: <9111160607.AA09173@athos.rutgers.edu> Errors-To: owner-ecto@athos.rutgers.edu Reply-To: ecto@athos.rutgers.edu Sender: ecto@athos.rutgers.edu From: ecto@athos.rutgers.edu To: ecto-request@athos.rutgers.edu Subject: ecto #48 ecto, Number 48 Saturday, 16 November 1991 Today's Topics: *-----------------* Misc kiri waxing loquacious ***LONG*** Stuff [tm] Snarf Fast Times at Boomdidiwana High (was: The educational value of Ecto) WOW What kind of group is Ecto? ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 15 Nov 91 12:08:30 PST From: "John M. Relph" Subject: Misc Yo, Youse gonna hafta start keeping the volume down! I can't hardly keep up with all this Ecto plasm that's raining down into my mailbox! Is there anybody who could tape the Heppy Interview for me? Anything wanted in trade? I played some Happy for a friend the other morning. She was visiting me in order to play a tape of her singing a Kate song, "My Lagan Love" to be exact, which sounded Great! Not as good as Kate, but then again, it was done in someone's apartment on inferior equipment, but the singing was quite good. Nearly made me cry. So afterwards I played her some Happy and she really liked it, so I gave her the ordering information. We may have another Happy person on our hands. Warpaint is definitely on my most played list (after Cud). Peace, -- John ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 15 Nov 91 15:52:27 EST From: Nimue - Gwragedd Annwn Subject: kiri waxing loquacious ***LONG*** *****Long-Post***** :) Here are my reactions to the B-Side of Rearmament. I did the A-side some time ago (aug. i think). Anyway as always these are only my thoughts to these songs, and some of them are strange soo here we go.... ---Box H.A.P.--- Bouncy keyboards overlaid with what I can only call orchestrated keyboards. Her vocals span the entire spectrum. There is a neat keyboard noise in the chorus - which sounds sorta like a bagpipe, which if she did this song live (with a bagpipe) would be neat. The very ending of the song has a little 4-5 note riff (only word I can think of for it - dont miss it! This song reminds me of a book called Strands of Starlight by Gaul Baudino. It is a fantasy book about this healer woman who must gain self-knowledge before she can attain her dreams. I would say more about the book, but I wouldnt want to spoil its magic. To me this song is about the fulfillment of dreams, but on another level means much more - the fulfillment of friendship and love. I truly believe that you cannot know the friends you love until you grow to love yourself. For me this song embodies this idea - "You made your choice [to love] now go to the end [realize it], You will find your peace etc. etc. The line "The instincts you feel are truth" is especially fitting - for me - since, and i think this is true for a lot of people, it is very difficult to express your true emotions to friends you love, but it is much easier if you are confident and have attained self-knowledge. ---I Have A Heart--- Guitars with backing keyboards. (sway sway) Medium Happy vocals, with a high shadow-echo backing voice (the id? perhaps, see below). A beautifully sad song. To me this song is about that immature little person that lives inside everyone. I guess some people would call it the id the primitive emotional side (the child that demands satisfaction). As a person grows they learn to bat down that inner voice - "she is deceived every day, Cheated and lied to in every way." Though often times this side comes out and demands attention. No one truly wants to entirely push this side away "All I can do is beg her to stay," because it is the emotional side. Sometimes I tend to think that it's the side that makes us human, thus no matter how much the "little person" hurts we don't want to lose it otherwise we turn into machines. I have no idea what this song really means - it could be autobiographical for all I know, but it will always mean what ive said above to me. :) ---Crystal Orbs--- Another sorta bouncy keyboards overlaid with orchestrated keyboards. There is also a wonderful extended-triangle like riff played within parts of the song. Extremely low Happy voice - I don't know how she gets so low! However most of the song is medium to high voices. (a side note - this song sounds really neat when you rewind while it's playing) Hmmm finding a meaning to this song is extremely difficult to do, but as always, I will find something to say :) When I was reading over the first four lines of lyrics all I could think of were Lava Lamps. This song can mean a bunch of different things. At first I was thinking that the Crystal Orbs were stars. I remember being out on an island at night far from any city and all I could see were stars. They filled a big black bowl. They seemed so close I could reach out and touch them, and talk to them "Im here and will be Addressing you only Now answer me." Ive tried to experience the same sort of feeling on other nights in places away from cities, but have never been able to. It seems like she is writing about some experience that she too has tried to experience again, but just can't quite match. Any ideas? ---Because I Learn--- A waltz of voices and keyboards. Wonderful! Medium to high Happy voices. One of my favorite songs. In meaning this song reminds me of _Red High Heels_ by Jane though it's a bit different. To me this song is talking about the ups and downs of existence, and maybe even love. You learn some things easily, you learn others through pain. You wish you had fore-knowledge of things (hindsight is 20/20 of course), sometimes you even wish you were older. The goal of learning through, and experiencing pain (sometimes) is so that you will be wise enough in the future to not have to experience it again. The line "I love I love Harder than Most do" is especially significant to someone i know very well (hi sis :) ). I think the line "I take my lessons well and so when they lie to me i can tell" is referring to the fact that when you experience something, and are hurt by it, you learn to be a little bit defensive the next time around. You've learned to recognize the deception that lurks in those placs where learning touches those big emotions. ---Baby Don't Go--- Slow dreamy keyboards. Medium to High vocals - with a smudgeon of low voice. Another sad-sounding song. Again this song could have lots of different meanings. Hmmm my overactive imagination has thought of a dirty way you could interpret this song - but i think ill stick to my other interpretation. :) I think this song can be about showing emotions that often hide in those deep recesses and dont want to come out. It can also be about that "litle person" that I was talking about before - not wanting to come out, being defiant. I also get the impression that the song is talking about growing up, learning to not be quivering and shy and afraid of the world - "to be who you are." Im not sure who "they" are in this song though, making it kinda hard to pin down one interpretation again - any ideas?? ---Rhodes Waltz--- Another waltzy song (obviously) with guitars and keyboards intertwining in a Happy dance. Her voice sounds really throaty on this song - i swear it sounds like she has a cold or was crying or something - it is a really wonderful effect. Towards the end there are psuedo violin keyboards. This song is demanding orchestration! Wonderful emotional song - another favorite! The meaning of this one is pretty obvious (i think). To me she is talking about her life in general, that if you ignore me now, and the wonderful things I have to offer then you will miss something important and it wont be returning. However, if you "treat me with respect and care," then ill treat you the same - what goes around comes around. It suddenly occured to me that this could apply to a pet such as a cat too - if you don't treat them with respect they will just move on, but if you give them love then they will give you the same when you least expect it. Actually you could apply the meaning of the song to anyone - everyone is important, the more you pay attention to people, pets etc. the more you will get back in return. ---Ally Ally Oxenfree--- Medium to High voices with light guitar. A neat song - and wonderful guitar work. I swear she sings so low in one part of this song that it sounds like another person is singing. Another song with multiple mystical meanings. You could take this quite literally - remembering old school days when it seemed like you truly were the only one that was ever "IT". However, I tend to see this song as a reaction to the emotional games people play with each other. In _some_ relationships people tend to show only one side of themselves. They tend to dissect the emotions away in a kind of hide and seek game, but the game is so elaborate that you often seek and never find. More often one person will show their emotions, and the other will be too scared to show theirs. When you have that happening often the one who shows the emotions will be "going home," because the other never touched their "home- base," never came out of hiding. I think that Happy touches on something important in this song - if indeed this is what she means. That's it till Ecto! Psychologist kIri out! hargieka@clutx.clarkson.edu "the issue is: does conscience survive" ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 15 Nov 91 16:39:20 MST From: dbx@olympic.atmos.colostate.edu (Doug Burks) Subject: Stuff [tm] Greetings, I originally asked: Has anyone picked "Grandma Got Run Over by a Reindeer!" yet? Klaus replied: I hope she didn't get hurt. :) Actually, in the song, she was killed. See Santa's not such a nice guy after all! Cathy blows up: Let it snow??????? Instead of an envious green, I'm turning a nauseous green. Here in Minneapolis we're still digging out from the Halloween Blizzard -- almost 30 inches of snow .... [terrible tales of woe deleted] You have to watch out for us meteorologists. The worst the weather, the more we love it. (No smileys, I'm damned serious. If you're anywhere near severe weather (tornadoes, thunderstorms, hurricanes, etc), go the exact opposite direction of any meteorologists you meet!) However, my comment was directed at Jessica and Greg, who have been moaning about the lack of snow in New Jersey and Boston all fall, and still are! Maybe you should send them some from your yard. kIri (damned tough to get the capitalization right each time :-) ) expounded on _Rearmament_ Side Two: I'm not going to say much, except 'Thank you'. Everyone seems to see a different side of Happy's music, and I don't think there's a 'correct' interpretation. Yet I think if everyone posted something about the Happy songs that most affect them, we would all gain even more insight to what Happy is trying to say, and ourselves. I would encourage everyone to do so for at least their favorite songs. I know it's a tough thing to do, even in our warm fuzzy blue mailing list. Happy's music is so personal, that it's impossible to talk about it without showing parts of yourself that you wouldn't otherwise. Still, give it a try! (Yes, I intend to do so myself someday). And again, thanks kiRi. Greg opined: y'all are way cooler than a heap o' cool beans... can't wait for the first international Happy convention :) Couldn't have said it better! Footah! (whatever that means :-) ) Doug Burks _O_ dbx@olympic.atmos.colostate.edu |< She really is!! ======================================================================== Date: 15-NOV-1991 20:15:37.01 From: MTARR@eagle.wesleyan.edu Subject: Snarf Hi! Martin, your New products had me snarfing all over my keyboard. I almost shorted the whole thing out with my spit. Yum. :) To the newbie with the VAX: welcome to Hell. Can I take your order, please? To the newbie with the Kate Boxed-Set question: it's out in the US, and has been for a year now, but it's now hard to find and you don't want the US pressings anyway. If you look you may stumble upon a UK or Japanese Set somewhere, if you're lucky it'll be reasonably priced. (As for whether or not it's worth it, go over to .gaffa and incite another flame war. :) Speaking of which, I can deal with Drukman, simply because it's absolutely impossible to take him seriously. He's fully aware he's an asshole and is so in a tongue-in-cheek sort of way that isn't as annoying as those of the Cynthia variety. I'm not sure why these two impress me differently, but they do- and while I know he would never join Ecto, I don't think he would be so bad over here if he did: he wouldn't have anyone to play off of and beg him to flame them. Cynthia, on the other hand, is like a Siamese Fighting Fish: all she'd ever need is a mirror. (the .sig of another Victim of the VAX) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Meredith Tarr "We let the weirdness in..." mtarr@eagle.wesleyan.edu -Kate Bush +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ======================================================================== Date: 15 November 1991 14:55:22 CST From: Subject: Fast Times at Boomdidiwana High (was: The educational value of Ecto) Some of the recent discussion on the Computers and Academic Freedom mailin g list (comp-academic-freedom-talk@eff.org) has touched on regulations at some academic computing installations, prohibiting or restricting use of the system for purposes unrelated to the university's educational mission. It has occurre d to me that the need may eventually arise for Ecto to defend its educational purpose, so as to preserve its niche on numerous university-connected systems. As my contribution to the cause, I now suggest a number of areas where we may be able to establish a rational nexus between the content of what we post, and the curriculum. ENGLISH LIT: Discussions of science fiction, its role in music in general and Happy's music in particular; analyses of the works of Stephen King. FOREIGN LANGUAGE: Exercises in the translation of German texts into English; translation of individual sentences between German, Latin, and Japanese. MATHEMATICS/STATISTICS: Construction of frequency distributions from raw data observations on birth dates, astrological signs, etc. ZOOLOGY/ANIMAL HUSBANDRY: Assorted bits of business in relation to contributor s' cats. CONSUMER EDUCATION: Results of comparison shopping for CD box sets at HMV and Newbury Comics. EDUCATIONAL SOCIOLOGY: Presentation of observational data on the "carrie" concept as it applies to secondary-school student culture. SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY: The social facilitation of self-disclosure, with times of birth and other personal data as a case study. MUSIC PERFORMANCE: Tryouts for the Ecto cover band, and for Happy's backup band. Feel free to add your own contributions to the master list. Knowledge is power! :-) Mitch Pravatiner _______________________ Say no to moral entrepeneurs. ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 15 Nov 91 19:00:21 PST From: stevev@greylady.uoregon.edu (Steve VanDevender) Subject: WOW Let me guess, Jeanne: You have been watching "The Whole Story Videos" and you just saw "Cloudbusting". I have just fallen in love with Kate all over again and have been listening to "Ne T'enfuis Pas" over and over and over and over again. I read Andrew Marvick's translation of the French lyrics and it's some of the most wonderful imagery I've seen. Is it odd to like Happy and not Kate? Cathy asks. Hmm, well, probably not that odd. We certainly don't run by majority around here. ======================================================================== Date: 15 November 1991 13:31:06 CST From: Subject: What kind of group is Ecto? In his posting a week ago, Chip said "I think I hate groups! I think that is why I like Ecto so much." As fate would have it, it was sometime between midnight and 5 A.M. when I read that--a function of my rather deranged sleeping pattern--so perhaps I can be forgiven for letting it set me off on a rumination over the question, "Is Ecto a group?" In his classic article "The Sociology of Majorities" (American Sociologica l Review, v. 13, n. 6, December 1948, pp. 700-710), Robert Bierstedt posited a fourfold typology of groups, based on where they stood on each of three dimen sions: CLASSIFICATION OF GROUPS Social Con- Relations scious- Organi- Between ness of zation Members Kind A. Statistical No No No B. Societal No No Yes C. Social No Yes Yes D. Associational Yes Yes Yes (SOURCE: Bierstedt, 1948, p. 703. [And a living testament to the beauty of full-screen editors :-)]) Clearly, we Ectophiles have consciousness of kind, _i.e._, the mutual awareness of a shared attribute. And it would appear that, by contemporary standards at least, we have "social contact and communication," (p. 704), which sets a social group apart from a merely societal one. It is more problematic if an analytic distinction is drawn between "contact" and "communication": it seems to me that we have much more of the latter, in the aggregate, than the former. Granted, the technology that holds our social network (a significant concept in its own right, BTW) together was largely absent 43 years ago; but one can only speculate how far "groups of acquaintances, relatives, cliques [as Cynthia and friends over on the Gaffa side might well characterize us :-)], audiences, spectators, crowds, mobs, passengers on board a small ship, and many other unorganized groups discussed in the texts" (_Id._) could be stretche d to encompass the likes of we, _if_ spatial copresence and face-to-face inter- action in the traditional sense are defined as essential. One can only specu- late on how Bierstedt would have classified those who write replies to journal articles, rejoinders to the replies, and still other responses to the rejoin- ders--sort of the traditional academic equivalent of a good flame war. Whether we qualify as an associational group depends on whether we have any kind of formal organization, which in turn depends on how you define organization. Classical sociological theorists would probably feel the need to sleep awhile on the notion that a single machine--_viz._, Jessica's mailing- list server--could singlehandedly serve as the basis of lasting social cohesion. (We must again take technological change into account when evalua- ting this perspective.) But be such as it may, Bierstedt does say that "In these groups it is the formal organization which is the prominent character- istic," and--perhaps much more important--that "membership in them in itself confers consciousness of kind and generates social relations in accordance with procedural norms." (_Id._) IMHO WIVH, the epigram that appears in Jessica's own signature says it all: "It is this that brings us together." So: by Bierstedt's criteria, it would seem that Ecto is indeed a group: incontestably at least a societal group, arguably a social group, and probably an associational group. A more significant question, perhaps beyond the scope of this paper (as people in my industry are fond of saying), is whether the emergence of collectivities such as our own may have outmoded conceptual schemes such as Bierstedt's. It should be pondered whether dimensions like societal groups, associational groups, etc.--at least for present purposes-- have lost some of their contemporary relevance to alternative ways of looking at the world, such as warm fuzzy blue groups, friendly flame-free groups, etc. :-) Mitch Pravatiner (member of the 1990 Directory Committee, Section on Community and Urban Sociology, American Sociological Association) _____________________ In Memoriam Midway Airlines 1979-1991 ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 15 Nov 91 23:00:59 EST From: Nimue - Gwragedd Annwn Doug the fluffy white snow flake sayz: ----------------------------------------------------------------- >kIri (damned tough to get the capitalization right each time :-) ) expounded on _Rearmament_ Side Two: I'm not going to say much, except 'Thank you'. ----------------------------------------------------------------- You're very welcome! I had started my reactions to the albums a long time ago and have finally got up the gumption to finish - so you'll have Ecto to deal with still i.e. two more big posts. I would just do my favorite songs, but im in this groove. I would also love to hear other peoples reactions to any or all songs. There are so many different interpretations of her work, and i too am curious as to peoples reactions. Mitch our roving sociology expert and Chief Ecto ad Producer says in his .sig --------------------------------------------------------------- "....moral entrepeneur. (is the spelling right on that ? :) ) --------------------------------------------------------------- What is a moral entrepeneur?? It sounds like some sort of Fundie. *smile* ----- In prep for Ecto reactions I've been listening to the album all day. Initial reaction: Im in total awe of the power of _Off from Out_ I swear I could listen to this song a thousand times and never tire of it. The ultra cool bass part makes me want to pull out my bass and groove along. kIrI hargieka@clutx.clarkson.edu soon to be returing to a new chinet account!