9-Nov-91 18:43:10-GMT,29347;000000000001 Received: from athos.rutgers.edu by aramis.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.4/3.08) id AA11560; Sat, 9 Nov 91 13:35:08 EST Received: by athos.rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.4/3.08) id AA12904; Sat, 9 Nov 91 13:35:05 EST Date: Sat, 9 Nov 91 13:35:05 EST Message-Id: <9111091835.AA12904@athos.rutgers.edu> Errors-To: owner-ecto@athos.rutgers.edu Reply-To: ecto@athos.rutgers.edu Sender: ecto@athos.rutgers.edu From: ecto@athos.rutgers.edu To: ecto-request@athos.rutgers.edu Subject: ecto #28 ecto, Number 28 Saturday, 9 November 1991 Today's Topics: *-----------------* Dare we say... oops! Madonna ecto gif pop-o-rama more Madonna Re: ecto gif / Madonna Aural gratification Rambling through Popular Culture Madonna//Sarah McLachlan ======================================================================== Date: 8-NOV-1991 14:46:15.01 From: MTARR@eagle.wesleyan.edu Subject: Dare we say... Hi! I liked "Truth Or Dare" too, but I thought it was called "In Bed With Madonna"- that's what it was called in Europe... I wonder why they changed it? It works better as a title for this film, IMO... Anyway, I went expecting a wonderful chance to Madonna-bash for a couple hours, and left with a sort of respect for her. Not necessarily for what she's doing, but she's certainly not a Pre-manufactured Pop Star-- she actually has a brain! :) A friend of mine, a fellow Katefan, is also a die-hard Madonna fan. I told her that recognition is the first step to recovery. ;) YES, Vickie, Innocence Mission report would be greatly appreciated- I'm going to see them in a couple weeks and I want to be as psyched as possible for the show (not that I'm not psyched already- thanks woj :). And while we're bandying SF author-recommendations about (whoever called it "SciFi" should be flogged 476 times with a wet noodle :P ), my personal favorite is Melissa Scott. She hasn't done much in the past couple years, but her first novel won the John Campbell Award for Best New Author, and it's great. It's the first book in a trilogy, actually-- _Five-Twelfths Of Heaven_, _Silence In Solitude_, and _The Empress of Earth_. The physics in her universe is based on music and the Harmonies of the Stars, and it's quite innovative... not to mention the story is great, too. :) I don't read as much SF as Fantasy, though. My list of recommended authors would just be too long, and this post is long enough already, so I'll spare you all. :) Uh, got to get some Happy content into this... oh! I sent off a letter to Happy and Kevin today, requesting a copy of _Warpaint_ for WESU. I'm not expecting to get one soon, in view of the short stock, but at least they'll know another station wants it to play- I never got an answer from my last letter, and I hope they at least ackowledge receipt of this one... +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Meredith Tarr "We let the weirdness in..." mtarr@eagle.wesleyan.edu -Kate Bush +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 15:05:27 EST From: jessica@cs.rutgers.edu Subject: oops! Meredith, you remind me! Wheil i was tlaking to Happy yesterday I did remember to ask her about your letter. She said they *had* received it, and would answer it eventually! She says they've got several letters and things to do that they haven't had a chance to get to yet, She and Kevin both apologize for it taking so long, but they do intend to write back to you! I explained that you didn't want to pester them (I tihnk she appreciated that ;) but i also don't think she'd mind at *all* if you sent another letter. jessica ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 14:13:07 CST From: vishal@ra.csc.ti.com (Vishal Markandey) Subject: Madonna kyrlidis@athena.mit.edu writes: > Jeff B. writes: > >I *loved* _Truth or Dare_. Same here. > I liked it too. Actually I think Madonna's 'Like a Prayer' album was pretty > good stuff. And I do occasionally listen to the Immaculate collection. Her older stuff is great too, specially `Like a Virgin', IMHO. First album I ever bought, and have loved it ever since. - Vish ======================================================================== From: kyrlidis@athena.mit.edu Subject: Re: Madonna Date: Fri, 08 Nov 91 15:32:35 EST Well, well... Try writing that kind of thing to .gaffa!!!! I once dared say that Madonna isn't THAT bad, and I got hate mail...Imagine if I had actually admitted liking some of her stuff. Glad to see that ecto is so open-minded!!! It ain't my favorite mailing list for no reason!!! OK, now is there anyone who actually thinks that the Marky Mark and the Funky bunch remake of 'Walk on the wild side' with updated lyrics, is kind of good? I do...A casual listener will scream 'Sacrilege' but on repeated listens (or views on MTV) it grows on you. Maybe it's because I like the original... Angelos --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tantalize poets with visions of grandeur, their faces turn blue with the reek of the compost, as the living try hard to retain what the dead lost, with double dead sickness from writing at what cost and business and business and reverse and reverse and set the brain reeling the inverse and perverse.... --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 15:01:30 CST From: vishal@ra.csc.ti.com (Vishal Markandey) Subject: ecto gif Try processing the "Ecto" gif with the "ppmrelief" filter if you have it. It looks incredible! You would have to first convert the gif to ppm of course, I actually converted to pgm to get rid of the pseudo color in the top part of the image. The overall process is: giftoppm ecto.gif | ppmtopgm | ppmrelief > ecto.relief - Vish ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 16:43:37 -0500 From: gb10@gte.com (Gregory Bossert) Subject: Re: ecto gif Vishal suggests: > Try processing the "Ecto" gif with the "ppmrelief" filter [...] stone cold beans! cool enough that i am going to ask jessica to put the GIF version i just made into the ecto-archives on athos.rutgers.edu... (jessica, would you please put the GIF version i just made into the ecto- archives on athos.rutgers.edu? ;) makes a nice if very spooky backdrop! bootah! -greg -- gb10@gte.com -- are *you* ecto? ======================================================================== Subject: pop-o-rama Date: Fri, 08 Nov 91 17:02:28 EST From: jeffy@lewhoosh.umd.edu >OK, now is there anyone who actually thinks that the Marky Mark and the Funky >bunch remake of 'Walk on the wild side' with updated lyrics, is kind of good? >I do...A casual listener will scream 'Sacrilege' but on repeated listens (or >views on MTV) it grows on you. Maybe it's because I like the original... Interesting; on alt.rock-n-roll some people were ripping on "Wildside," apparently because *they* like the original. I have some problems with "Wildside," (they overused that sax riff), but overall, I was semi-impressed with it. Marky Mark is incredibly vocally anti-drug, and that song is a good carrier for it. It's rather ironic that the samples are from a song by an ex heroin-addict. The lyrics of "Wildside" are definitely better than those of his first single, "Good Vibration" (or is that 'vibrations'?) On the other hand, the first single had those great female vocals. Marky Mark and the Funky Bunch appear to be much more talented than Mark's brother and *his* cohorts. Blech. On a semi-related note, someone was ragging on r.m.g. about 3rd-Bass. How can you hate a band that has a hit rap song that contains Peter Gabriel samples?! Especially when you know that Gabriel allowed those samples to be used! Jeff ======================================================================== Subject: pop-o-rama Date: Fri, 08 Nov 91 17:03:33 EST From: jeffy@lewhoosh.umd.edu >kyrlidis@athena.mit.edu writes: > >> Jeff B. writes: >> >I *loved* _Truth or Dare_. > >Same here. Weird. I dunno 'bout you-all, but I'd never expect this much crossover between Happy/KaTe/Madonna fans. >> I liked it too. Actually I think Madonna's 'Like a Prayer' album was pretty >> good stuff. And I do occasionally listen to the Immaculate collection. _Like A Prayer_ is the only Madonna album I own, but I'm rather fond of it... >Her older stuff is great too, specially `Like a Virgin', IMHO. First album >I ever bought, and have loved it ever since. Hmmm...I dunno. I guess I see _Like a Virgin_ and _True Blue_ as transitory albums (especially the latter). I have a lot of trouble dealing with Madonna's real early ultra-pop days. _Like a Virgin_ was a bit better, but not something I'd really want to own. _True Blue_, on the other hand, is a surprisingly good album, as long as you ignore a couple of tracks (whose names I've thankfully forgotten; it's been a good 5 or 6 years since I've heard the entire _True Blue_ album). _Like A Prayer_ was a much more mature album, both musically and lyrically. _I'm Breathless_ is hard to quantify since it's such a departure. "Vogue," of course, is incredible. Interestingly, I don't particularly care for either of the two new songs on _The Immaculate Collection_. I'm rather curious about what her next album will be like. obHappy: I had to drive over to my sister's school to drop something off this morning and I popped in the cassette that was sticking out of my tape deck. Turned out that I was at the very beginning of HR Vol II, side b, so, of course "No One Here" started up. How is it that such a peaceful song always gives me an incredible jolt of pain and beauty and I feel a void that is filled almost immediately after it's formed? Just curious... Jeff ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 17:35:37 EST From: jessica Subject: Re: pop-o-rama (people make comments about Madonna) Hmm, I didn't tihnk about her too much 'til I saw the film "At Close Range". Her song at the ned of that is just *amazing* I thought. Of course it helps that it's just perfect for the end of the film, and the way I feel at the point probably has a lot to do with it, but still I love the song. When I heard it, I was so impressed that I simply do have respect for her in general. jeff says: > I dunno 'bout you-all, but I'd never expect this much crossover between > Happy/KaTe/Madonna fans. Yeah, it's pretty nifty. I bet we could write long papers and have long discussions on why :) jeff writes about "no one here": > How is it that such a peaceful song always gives me an incredible > jolt of pain and beauty and I feel a void that is filled almost > immediately after it's formed? Just curious... Wow, you put that very well. jessica || jessica || It is this that || Don't try to tell me there's no reason for || || lawrence || brings us || any moment in time, every memory of mine. || || koeppel || together. || Those years are lines of color on my face, || || dembski || --Kate || the past is warpaint. --Happy Rhodes || ======================================================================== From: drk@leland.stanford.edu (David Koehler) Subject: more Madonna Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 14:59:49 PST Oh my goodness! Madonna talk on Ecto. This is really neat. I too like Happy/Madonna/Kate. I would never dare mention Madonna on r.m.g. -- I almost got my butt fried for mentioning Happy on r.m.g. a while back (hi Vickie! 8-) I think that Madonna's recent single Rescue Me from the Immaculate Collection shows a new degree of maturity in lyric and song writing. While she's no Happy/Kate in terms of sophistication, I believe that she is under-rated by art-rock-snob types. Madonna's star will likely continue to rise in the nineties. Cheers, David. BTW, this is kind of late, but my B-day is July 25. Yes, another Leo! ======================================================================== Date: 8 Nov 91 16:25:47 U From: "Tom Johnson" Subject: Re: more Madonna Reply to: RE>more Madonna David Kohler brags: >BTW, this is kind of late, but my B-day is July 25. Yes, another Leo! Not *just* another Leo! Another July 25 Leo! Tom (7/25/66) ======================================================================== From: kyrlidis@athena.mit.edu Subject: Re: ecto gif / Madonna Date: Fri, 08 Nov 91 18:35:05 EST Hi, Greg footahs: >stone cold beans! cool enough that i am going to ask jessica to put the >GIF version i just made into the ecto-archives on athos.rutgers.edu... >makes a nice if very spooky backdrop! Why I have been using the original ecto.gif as a backdrop by simply: xloadimage -onroot -fullscreen ~/ecto.GIF>& /dev/null& it in my .login file. Is there a more intelligent way to do this? david K. writes: >I too like Happy/Madonna/Kate. Wow, this is a trend...I guess whoever likes this trio, has shown an exceptional diversity in musical taste, and should be proud! Now who likes Queen as well? Or Prince?? Angelos 'Suspended in Ecto-bliss for finding his bizarre yet good music taste shared by other ecto-philes, who obviously have an exquisite taste in music, movies, books etc.' ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 18:48:14 -0500 From: gb10@gte.com (Gregory Bossert) Subject: Re Re: ecto gif / Madonna Angelos asks: > Is there a more intelligent way to [display "the original ecto.gif"] hmm, not necessarily -- i *meant* to mean that the processed version of the ecto picture (which has a ghostly, 3D grey effect that is very different from the original) should also be available. if that still doesn't make sense, i must be working to hard... ;) > Now who likes Queen as well? Or Prince?? i like Queen well enough -- better than many groups, i suppose, though i haven't bought an album of theirs since _news of the world_. on the other hand, i have just about the complete Purple One on CD (i refuse to buy the CD of 1999 -- there is no reason at all for them to have dropped DMSR... *grrr*) i'm still waiting for a KaTe/Prince teamup... ;-} footah! -greg -- gb10@gte.com -- "a woman drew her long black hair out tight and fiddled whisper music on those strings and bats with baby faces in the violet light whistled, and beat their wings" -- T.S. Eliot ======================================================================== From: kyrlidis@athena.mit.edu Subject: Aural gratification Date: Fri, 08 Nov 91 20:06:59 EST Hi, One last question for the day. has it been established that AG takes its name from the Lou Reed song 'Growing up in Public' where AG is mentioned? It just occured to me since I was listening to my Best of Velvets/Reed tape... Just wondering. Angelos ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 17:34 CST From: vickie@chinet.chi.il.us (Vickie Ann Mapes) Subject: Rambling through Popular Culture Vickie here. I had this all written out in my mind last night as I was trying to go to sleep, but, of course, today it's fragmented and disjointed. I'll try to make it as truly fascinating and interesting and articulate as it was in my mind, but if it doesn't come out, you'll at least know that I tried. :-) I find it very interesting that more than a couple of people have, either conciously or subconciously, somewhat apoligised for liking Stephen King. That seems to be a by-product of "Popular-culture bashing" that we so love to do, and I'm as guilty of it as anyone. There's nothing wrong with popular culture, but when we (I mean Ectophiles and Kate fans) consider ourselves on a higher "level" than the "unwashed masses" (joke!) it's easy to refer to, and bash, popular culture as a means to get the point of why we like what we like, across. Example: I very often say that one of the reasons I like Happy/Kate/Jane is because the music is not such that you can sing along with the first time you hear it and the lyrics are more interesting and deeper than the average "oooh baby baby" crapola that's there every time you turn on the radio. Those are very good reasons I like H/K/J, but I had to bash Popular Culture (hereafter known as PC, not to be confused with "Politically Correct") to do it. It was easy too! Whenever we admit to liking something that is well-known and loved in the PC, we call it a "Guilty Pleasure" which doesn't explain why we like it, but helps to ease the guilt _about_ liking it. It's true in my case, but then, I have lots of guilty pleasures, and it's a comfort to call them such. The thing that interests me is that there's usually a reason why something is popular. I may agree (Stephen King) or disagree (violently, Vanilla Ice) but there's something that people like, and if a *lot* of people like it, wha la, it becomes part of the PC. It further interests me that any PC starts out as nothing, then builds as more people find out about it, and embraces it. An example would be _The Simpsons_, which started out with a cult following as a comic strip, then built a bigger cult audience as short cartoon snippets on _The Tracy Ullman Show_. When it was "discovered" and given its own prime-time (semi) network spot on Fox, it exploded into PC. There are exceptions, one being _Twin Peaks_. It exploded into PC from the beginning, and was everyone's favorite darling for the first few weeks. Then it became apparent that it was never intended for PC. As the show got darker and weirder and more complex, viewership dropped, critics did the hypocritical dance and went sour on it and the network started getting nervous about it, changing air days around, putting it on hiatus, doing everything possible to make people forget it ever existed. I love TP, and I was glad to see it drop out of PC. I, and probably most of the other true TP fans were glad to have it all to ourselves. It wasn't easy to ignore the people who loved to score scorn points by knocking it and it's viewers, but it didn't keep me from thoroughly enjoying the *entire* series (right to the bitter/sweet ending), to hell with what anyone else thinks. TP would have been much better off (maybe) if it has started slowly and built up its following. Who can know? It started PC and ended "cult" and maybe it would still be on the air if it had started cult and had never became PC. It's gone now, but not completely (not with the film in progress) and it will never be forgotten. Certainly not by it's fans, and it will always be a tiny touchstone in PC too. Kate is a *wonderful* example of the PC exception. In rec.music.misc there was a thread about "what is alternative music?" (which pops up every few weeks it seems, as someone comes up with the...ahem, brilliant idea of starting a new newsgroup dedicated to said "alternative" music) and a list provided originally by our dear Gaffian Ed Suranyi was posted, listing the Top 105 alternative groups on SFO's Live 105 radio station. Kate was in there, as well she should be. The kicker was when a *European* reader came back to scoff at some of the acts mentioned. The gist was "blah blah, blah blah, blah blah and Kate Bush alternative? You must be joking!" which made me see red, but I didn't answer him because I think I know where he's coming from. Kate *is* PC in England and Europe. Hit after hit after hit, albums going to number one, Top 10 at the very least, video upon video upon video, personal appearances, Awards, or at least, nominations for awards, up the ying yang and so on and on and on. Her PC crown has wobbled here and there (The Dreaming put the masses off their lunches, while the faithful know it's her masterpiece) and she's tried hard in the past few years to render the crown invisible, but it's still there. To us in America it might seem truly extraordinary that such an "alternative" artist appears with all those "mainstream" acts on the Elton John tribute album, but in Europe and England, to people not completely familiar Kate's music, who only know her from PC, it's not strange at all. Kate's in the unusual position of being PC over there, and practically cult everywhere else, mostly in America, since she did have some hits in other countries such as Canada and Australia. In general though, PC starts slow. Here are some of my personal examples: Stephen King. I believe the year was 1974. I was standing at the counter of our local library as a box was being unpacked, the latest shipment of books. I used to spend a lot of time there and it was always a treat to be the first to check out a book. I hung around until they were processed and took home 3 or 4. One of them was by an unknown author named Stephen King, and the book, his first, was called _Carrie_. I don't think I get a prize or anything, but I do believe that I was one of the first people in the world, apart of course from SK's family, friends, and publishers, to read Stephen King. As soon as I read the book I was hooked, and wanted to buy it. I called all the book stores in town and no one had it. One of them put in a special order for me. Imagine, having to special order a SK book, one that eventually became so well-known too! I went around telling every- one I knew "you just _have_ to read this book!!" As with all my obsessions over the years (Genesis, Kate, Happy) people either listened to me or they got thoroughly sick of hearing me rave on about it :-). I followed SK from then on, buying all the books in hardback, then re-buying them in paper. I watched with astonishment and glee as he started (and continued) to make the best-seller lists, and as movies were made from his books. I rode the wave of SK's entry into PC and boy was it fun! My interest has waned just slightly, I have to admit that I've never read the _The Dark Tower_ books, _Four Past Midnight_ is sitting on the shelf unread and I haven't even bought _Needful Things_ yet, but SK is still one of my favorite authors, and The Stand is, and always will be, my *very* favorite book. Genesis is another example of watching something I loved from the start (found them in 1974) go from obscurity to PC. I've told the story before, so I won't go into it again, but their rise was quite unlikely and still quite amazing to me. Same with Peter Gabriel's solo career. I would have died laughing if someone had told me in oh, say, 1975, that Peter would one day have a #1 song in America. HOHOHO, YOU'RE CRAZY I would have said. Hohoho, *I* was the one left with my mouth hanging open in astonishment. Now, because of my PCphobia, I find myself saying things like "really, there's much more to Peter than just Sledgehammer, that was a one-off hit, certainly one of his silliest, you really *must* hear San Jacinto blah blah blah" to try to distance him from this song that nearly everybody, even his staunchest fans, came to despise after awhile. Sinead fans must do the same sort of thing. I wouldn't know, but she's an artist that I hated when she was cult, yet I rather like now that it's popular to Sinead-bash. I keep saying that one of these days I'll buy her albums to show my support, but I still haven't done that. Well, I do have a promo cassette of the first one, but eventually I want the CDs. Madonna has been mentioned, and, though I'm not a fan, I admire her in a lot of ways, and there are things that she's done that I really love. It seems as if she exploded into the PC, but she spent a lot of years paying dues and deciding what it would take to become famous. I can't say that she is one that I followed from obscurity to PC, but she's most definitely a PC person that I started out hating and ending up respecting. Jessica mentioned this months ago, when we weren't on the net, so I never got a chance to second it, but I also think that "Live To Tell" is a truly awesome song. It's great on its own, but as a theme song to a film, it is incredible! I heard the song and saw the video before I saw the film _At Close Range_ and was extremely impressed. It was the beginning of me starting to look at Madonna in a new light, beyond her "Boy Toy" image, which I detested. Then I saw the movie, because Christopher Walken and Sean Penn were in it. By the end of the film I was in tears and tatters, it's *SUCH* a powerful film!! Knowing that it was based on a true story made it even more so. I sat in the theater, too exhausted to move, when the song came on over the credits. For the first time I really listened to the lyrics and was even more devestated! Madonna co-wrote the song, and the lyrics were dead-on with what went on in the film. Well, you'll never hear another nasty word about Madonna from me, because, for me, that one song justifies her entire existence in music. She's done many other things that I like, but that will always be her masterpiece in my mind, probably because it affected me emotionally so deeply. Someone could say "it's only a movie, it's only a song" till they're blue in the face and it doesn't change how I felt sitting in the theater that night, and it doesn't change the reverence I still feel when I hear the song today, years after seeing the film. Unlike Doug's fine sf article, this one doesn't really have a point, but it's something to think about. What happens when something we love enters PC? Do we abandon it (like I did with Genesis) or do we apoligise for it (like I do with Stephen King) or do we just fit into the masses? What *would* it be like if Happy were to have a major hit, and keep on having hits? You know, it's much more likely for Happy to have a hit than Kate. Personally, I don't see why Kate didn't hit in America with "This Woman's Work" but oh well. Right now Happy is struggling and obscure. We marvel and rejoyce at the knowledge that she's had the #1 most requested song of the *year* on WXPN. What if it were that way all over the country? Of *course*, it would be a fine thing, not a bad thing, but it would be a strange thing, something we'd have to get used to. I personally can't see Happy "going" mainstream, her music will always be of the highest quality and integrity. When I think of her hitting the big time, I see a wonderful future of her having the money to pay her bills, and making more music and touring and helping causes and other, struggling musicians. The only problem I can see is something we've already experienced in gaffa, so it won't come as a suprise, namely, the "I'm so sick of hearing about Happy Rhodes, I wish she (or you people who talk about her) would just go away" speil. Hey, we've already been through the hard part, anything else will be clear sailing from here on out, nothing we can't handle! :-) Thus ends another episode of "Vickie" - pointless, rambling, but lots of fun to write and something I'd never get away with on gaffa. Thanks for your patience! Vickie ======================================================================== Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 23:56:02 EST From: Caoineag Subject: Madonna//Sarah McLachlan I am not a big fan of Madonnas - in fact most of the time I can't stand her (as a person not necessarily her music - her music is tolerable). I did see Truth or Dare and it was actually an interesting flick - after seeing the film I would actually go to a Madonna concert just to see her staging and theatrical work which looked incredible in the movie. Aside from that I think she is mediocre musically and has been given way too much attention (IMHO). Just got back from Montreal again...and am planning on making another trip up there in a couple of weeks because Sarah McLachlan is going to be in concert on Nov. 24 and if there are still tickets there is NO way I am going to miss it! If anyone else is going to the concert or was thinking about going please tell me! A big thanks to Justin for all the hints on neat places to see et.al in Montreal - we had a great time! kIrI hargieka@clutx.clarkson.edu ======================================================================== To join ecto, please send electronic mail to the following address: ecto-request@athos.rutgers.edu To have your thoughts included in the next issue, send mail to: ecto@athos.rutgers.edu To subscribe to "Ecto", the printed fanzine, send $8 to: Ecto PO Box 11291 New Brunswick, NJ 08906 Ecto is issued 8 times/year, and will include photos and as much material from non-net members as we can get! Donations above the subscription cost are welcomed - all money goes to bringing you better issues! Your "humble pseudo-moderator" -- jessica (jessica@athos.rutgers.edu)