Errors-To: owner-ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu Reply-To: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu Sender: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu From: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu To: ecto-request@ns1.rutgers.edu Bcc: ecto-digest-outbound@ns1.rutgers.edu Subject: ecto #560 ecto, Number 560 Wednesday, 5 May 1993 Today's Topics: *-----------------* Re: This Mortal Coil? Mathematics Moon Seven Times in Chicago (& more!) ectophiles at the eastern naturist gathering in mid June Re: Paperhouse Re: ecto statistics Re: soundtracks this mortal coil Some astoundingly meaningless statistics about Ecto I gathe the return of meth Re: Happy & Don't Give Up darwin PG dates Re: Warning: Klaus ahead ======================================================================== From: Tree of Schnopia Subject: Re: This Mortal Coil? Date: Wed, 5 May 93 0:06:18 EDT Forwarded message: > From matthews@ectds.com Tue May 4 19:55:32 1993 > Message-Id: <9305042309.AA25940@discovery> > To: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu ("Ecto Mailing List") > Subject: Re: This Mortal Coil? > In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 04 May 93 00:47:10 EDT." > <9305040447.AA24099@uhura.cc.rochester.edu> > Date: Tue, 04 May 93 19:09:20 -0400 > From: Michael Matthews > > Drewcifer writes: > > It all depends on how you look at it, actually. When it comes down to > it, human beings are a form of machine. We're carbon based. We've got > *really* complex DNA "programs" in us. Our brain is a complex network > of neurons and chemicals. Oh, sure. The difference that I see is our extensive ability to alter our own software...and, to an extent, our hardware. That's why I found this semester's study of genetic algorithms so fascinating. > I'm a little confused by your statement that "...intelligence would reach > a point where it's no longer any closer to human intelligence than > animal intelligence." Do you mean it'll evolve into something Monty > Python-ish (completely different)? I sure hope so. Wouldn't that be absolutely enthralling? Drewcifer ======================================================================== From: Tree of Schnopia Subject: Mathematics Date: Wed, 5 May 93 0:22:12 EDT Forwarded message: > From stevev@miser.uoregon.edu Tue May 4 12:35:19 1993 > Date: Tue, 4 May 93 09:34:06 PDT > From: stevev@miser.uoregon.edu (Steve VanDevender) > Message-Id: <9305041634.AA00413@miser.uoregon.edu> > To: Tree of Schnopia > Cc: as010b (Tree of Schnopia), ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu > In-Reply-To: <9305041536.AA07846@uhura.cc.rochester.edu> > Subject: This Mortal Coil? > > Tree of Schnopia writes: > > > Not really. Mathematics was conceived to describe reality, and it does so > > by quantification. And I'd submit that simple, powerful ways of describing > > these relationships are often simple mainly in relation to other > > mathematical formulae. But I'd really rather not discuss this either...it's > > also for my poetry and fiction, and not yet for any scientific meanderings. > > Perhaps the earliest mathematical techniques were invented to > model and describe certain aspects of reality, but it seems to me > that many mathematicians are no longer particularly worried about > whether their investigations have much correspondence to > real-world phenomena. Such correspondences are usually found > later, if at all. > > Perhaps it is simply that I have a strong mathematical > background, but I find most mathematical statements to be fairly > simple in meaning, even if they do depend on understanding many > other things about mathematics. > > What concerns me about your statements is that your poetry and > fiction will only reflect your feelings about mathematics, and > you seem not to have any great interest or understanding of > mathematics. I don't have time right now, but I could probably > wax poetic about mathematics myself because to me a really > interesting mathematical result is like a well-written poem. > I actually have a reasonable (for my age and major) understanding of mathematics, and adore number theory proofs. I'm doing undergrad research with a comp sci professor into relativized oracle computation with respect to the division of time complexity classes in computer science, which I'll be continuing next semester. I actually like mathematics an awful lot. I don't expect to find any great revelations there, though...that's just the nature of my inquisitive mind. (for reference, I'm an English/Cognitive Science double major) Drewcifer ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 5 May 93 0:48:13 EDT From: WretchAwry Subject: Moon Seven Times in Chicago (& more!) M7T will be in Chicago Thursday, May 13. They're playing the Avalon (959 W. Belmont) at 10:00pm. I have 2 extra complimentary tickets if anyone wants them. (we're on the band's mailing list and they sent us 4) There will be a "special reception with the band" starting at 9:00pm which you can attend with these tickets. It's a 21+ show. (When's the last time you were offered a free chance to schmooze with an angel??) Vickie ps, is my sex life, as a thread, just about finished? :-) pps, Evan didn't post Uli, that was a cross-post. I hope you (and JohnZ!) know that I was kidding around re "smart ass." Honest! ppps, I'll third the _Paperhouse_ recommendation, it's wonderful! pppps, went into the Loop Musicland and they had one copy of the Warpaint CD and one cassette. Naturally, I "repositioned" them to stand out :-) ppppps, I *love* the enthusiasm coming from Prodigy, but I disagree that Ecto's been devoid of it. As long as we have Yngve...!! As for me... ************************************************************************ IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY RRRRRRRRRRHHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODDDDDDDDDDDDEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *************************************************************************** ahem... Btw, Meredith, there was a time when I didn't like "He's Alive" either, mainly because it came between "Given in" and "Possessed" and I'd skip over HA to get to Possessed. Once I found out the story behind HA though, it took on a whole new life and I *love* it now. For anyone who might not know, the song is a fantasy about Happy sitting in front of one of her monster paintings (Alice, the he-monster) and being able to conjure Alice to life to "roam the streets, invade their dreams." I take "their" to mean all the people who had caused Happy the young girl so much pain, heartbreak and confusion. Hey, the girl in the song is another "carrie" and she's *not* gonna take it anymore! It's about being in control, being able to bring her monster friends to life, and about getting....um....revenge, maybe? Anyhoo, I love it, and now I listen to it with a mini mind-movie in mind. It would make a *great* Twilight Zone episode! ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 5 May 93 0:56:37 EDT From: WretchAwry Subject: Re: This Mortal Coil? SteveVanD waxes mathematical: > I don't have time right now, but I could probably > wax poetic about mathematics myself because to me a really > interesting mathematical result is like a well-written poem. One of my biggest regrets in life is that I was in my 30s before I saw "Donald in Mathmagic Land." I'm sure I would have fallen in love with math if I'd seen it as a child. Vickie ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 01:34:00 -0400 From: myhui@bigbunny.isis.org (Michael M.Y. Hui) Subject: ectophiles at the eastern naturist gathering in mid June Is anyone going to attend? I plan to. Email me to coordinate if you're planning to be there. It's at Camp Barrett in the Pocono mountains in the state of Pennsylvania. The camp is spread over 1000 acres, most of it wooded with lots of trails and lots of natural wonders to see and explore. To set the scene, I'll relate a very pleasant experience I had recently at our local clothing-optional corner of a park near here: The place was deserted, on a warm overcast day, a sparsely wooded hillside had diffused sunlight shining through, with a warm breeze and the sound of a waterfall a hundred feet away, with the occasional mist from the waterfall carried over by the wind, birds singing throughout the forest, on a clearing among the trees, on level ground on soft soil: I did my complete repertoire of yoga exercises; and it was the most relaxing thing I've done in a long time, both for the mind and for the body. Camp Barrett appears to be well suited for a repeat experience. Michael M.Y. Hui myhui@bigbunny.isis.org Ottawa Ontario Canada ======================================================================== Subject: Re: Paperhouse Date: Wed, 05 May 93 09:00:32 +0100 From: Stephen Thomas consid (the other Susanne) says: >I noticed that Happy lists "Paperhouse" as one of her favorite >films. I can't recommend this film enough! It is out on video and >has played on Cinemax a few times. It's an extremely haunting, >weirdly beautiful film about a little girl who finds the things >she draws come to life. Definitely a must-see. I first saw this film about a year ago, I think, and was totally captivated by it. What really pleased me, however, was that I already knew the story! Many years ago, when I was in primary school (UK basic education from ages 5-11), we would have stories read out to us, and I remember the story of Paperhouse being one such. I remember it fascinating me even then. After seeing Paperhouse, I did some hunting around in the kids section of the local bookstore. I found out that the story upon which the film is based is called "Marianna Dreams", by Catherine Storr (not certain about the author's first name), published in the 1950's. I haven't had chance to read it yet... Keep well, Stephen ======================================================================== From: welsh@epcc.ed.ac.uk Date: Wed, 5 May 93 09:51:19 BST Subject: Re: ecto statistics Uli writes: >> What's the German word for "smart ass"? :-) > That's "Klugscheisser" Thanks Uli. I'm learning German right now and this is just the sort of vocabulary I need to round off the rough edges. How would you feel about posting a German vulgarism once a week? > And, Vickie, your very own Chris has posted once or twice from uchicago, > and Evan has posted once here. Alaska is one of the extras I described. I don't remember posting here before---I've only been lurking for a few days. I suppose I've done it now though. Hi everyone! Wow, this is a nice group. -- _____________________________________________________________________ / Evan Welsh \ \ Edinburgh Parallel Computing Centre (+44 31 650 5960) / ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 5 May 93 04:57:20 EDT From: mojzes@monet.rutgers.edu (brni) Subject: Re: soundtracks ======================================================================== From: boek@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au (Christopher Boek) Subject: Re: soundtracks Date: Tue, 4 May 1993 21:03:00 +1000 (EST) Graham asks Re Laurie Anderson: > > What I want to know is... Does she ever get down to Australia? > Why is it that this seems ever to be the question .... ? :( I wish Suzanne Vega was coming down as well, but I doubt that too. Ah well *sigh* at least PG's coming down this time, even though I probably won't get to see him. Chris. -- | ||| ||| | ||| ||| ||| | ||Christopher Boek - boek@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au | ||| ||| | ||| ||| ||| | || Dept Elec Eng Univ of Melbourne Australia | | | | | | | | | / "Anybody remotely interesting is mad in |___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___| \_/\_/\_/\_/\__/(:*- some way or another" well, the system here is totally ***ked, so i can't edit this properly. but its too late to stop now. (did i ever complain about how stoopid computers are?) anyway, for all of you down in australia, think about how much *more* music comes your way than ever makes it to alaska. 2 years ago when i was there, everybody, and i mean *EVERYBODY* had a styx t-shirt because they were the first big rock band to make it to fairbanks. every third song on the radio was a styx song, too, which was rather repulsive, but they were into it... brni ======================================================================== From: Steve Fagg Subject: Re: ecto statistics Date: Wed, 5 May 93 10:34:29 BST On Wed, 5 May 93 at 09:51:19 BST welsh@epcc.ed.ac.uk wrote: > I don't remember posting here before---I've only been lurking for a few > days. I suppose I've done it now though. > > Hi everyone! Wow, this is a nice group. Welcome aboard Evan! How about giving us your reactions to the Happy music you've heard so far? And have you had any feedback from Scott? -- Regards Steve Fagg ( S.L.Fagg@bnr.co.uk +44-279-402437 ) BNR Europe Ltd., London Road, Harlow, Essex, CM17 9NA, UK *** "Better drowned than duffers. If not duffers, won't drown". *** ======================================================================== From: Steve Fagg Subject: Re: ecto statistics Date: Wed, 5 May 93 12:15:19 BST On Sat, 1 May 93 at 02:26 MET DST uli@zoodle.robin.de (Ulrich Grepel) wrote: > And, Vickie, your very own Chris has posted once or twice from uchicago, > and Evan has posted once here. The vast majority of the posts that appear to come from Chris are in fact Vickie using their joint Katefans account. As far as I can recall Chris has only ever once posted to Ecto himself. Evan's first post to Ecto was only today. Clearly the program used to trawl through the archives looking for poster's identities is picking up some lines that it shouldn't. -- Regards Steve Fagg ( S.L.Fagg@bnr.co.uk +44-279-402437 ) BNR Europe Ltd., London Road, Harlow, Essex, CM17 9NA, UK *** "Better drowned than duffers. If not duffers, won't drown". *** ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 05 May 93 08:07:55 EDT From: der ubergoth Subject: this mortal coil Tree of Schnopia sez: >> What is this enthralling cd by This Mortal Coil?! >It's just called This Mortal Coil. Apparently it's a sample from the >forthcoming box set, yup, that's all it is. nothing on it has not already been released. btw, the box set is out now. has been for about 2-3 weeks or so. +woj ======================================================================== From: welsh@epcc.ed.ac.uk Date: Wed, 5 May 93 13:59:04 BST Subject: Re: ecto statistics Steve Fagg writes: > Welcome aboard Evan! How about giving us your reactions to the Happy > music you've heard so far? And have you had any feedback from Scott? Okay, okay, first of all credit where credit is due: thanks to Steve for sending me a sampler and thanks to Vickie for arranging it and for inviting me to join ecto. Cheers and HUG respectively. The sampler has one/two tracks from all the albums as far as I can make out. Confusingly for me, my two faves are "Be Careful What You Say" and "When the Rain Came Down" which are labelled "CD Bonus Tracks." Can anyone (Steve?) explain what this means exactly? I like them all so I'm going to start sending off for the CDs soon, probably in chronological order. The mail order prices work out cheaper than it would cost to buy CDs in a UK shop, belive it or not. Scott was less enamoured of Happy's music. The best I could get out of him was that he didn't dislike it. I wasn't too surprised since I couldn't even get him to be enthusiastic about Tori. ;-) I had an amusing thought that I've already shared with Vickie; wouldn't Happy do a great cover of "Don't Give Up," singing both parts? She has an amazing range and some of the songs I've heard sound like duets. I particularly like her high range where she sounds an awful lot like KaTe. Can anyone tell me if this is something she has used more/less over time? It's taken me a long time to get off my arse and get hold of some Happy and I'm glad I finally did. Now, final question: does anyone have some GIFs or JPGs of Happy. I'd be interested to be able to put a face to her. Don't nobody flame me or nuthin' but I have this image of Buffy St. Marie-like in my head and I'm sure it's not appropriate. (That's a long post, for me!) -- _____________________________________________________________________ / Evan Welsh \ \ Edinburgh Parallel Computing Centre (+44 31 650 5960) / ======================================================================== From: "Michael Blackmore" Date: 5 May 93 09:22:21 EST Subject: Some astoundingly meaningless statistics about Ecto I gathe > By the Kate calendar I was born in the year 5 AD > Ack! should be 5 AK Just to settle this point: AD means "in the year of our lord" since Kate and Happy can be considered divine, the AD usage is more than appropriate. > By the Happy calendar I was born in year 2 BC > Bah! should be 2 BH BC means "before Christ" Christ is actually a title meaning "annointed" and though commonly used to denote Jesus as part of his name does not refer specifically to him. Kate and Happy definitely fall in this category too. So I used the terms correctly! :-P (nya nya!) :-) - Michael B. ======================================================================== From: "Michael Blackmore" Date: 5 May 93 10:45:14 EST Subject: Some astoundingly meaningless statistics about Ecto I gathe Steve sez: >> BC means "before Christ" Christ is actually a title meaning >> "annointed" and though commonly used to denote Jesus as part of his >> name does not refer specifically to him. Kate and Happy definitely >> fall in this category too. > "Before" is English, and "Christ" in English is a proper name, not > Greek for any God. 'Course, HR and KT are not ordinary gods! Well, according to OED and Webster's Christ does mean "annointed", so I still find it acceptable to use with Kate and Happy. > Domini in AD refers to "the Lord", proper noun, a named person. > Christ is also a named person. Not any lord or annointed one. > Besides, to say HR or KT is annointed or a lord to say christ or > domini is a name three steps removed, which looses the message. The > terms AD and BC were in use when Latin and Greek were used in many > daily conversations. Referring to a person thrice removed is > crytic. Hmmm. This is interesting, but since according the Birthday list Kate is God and Happy the Holy Ghost, the usage is still more than appropriate. Unless you're one of those heretics that would place another god ahead of them? ("Well, folks, get the fire ready! Looks like we're going be burning ourselves a her-e-tic, tonight!") ;-) - Michael B. ======================================================================== Date: 05 May 93 10:44:10 EDT From: Mike Mendelson Subject: the return of meth Meth finally (:-) responds to my inadvertant multi-post: >Mike (mjm) asks: > >}no longer attracted to women "in that way," are you saying she's >}lying through her genes? > >Well, yeah, sort of. For her to have had those relationships in >the past means that she has the capacity to have them somewhere- >just because she has decided to spend the rest of her days >happily hetero doesn't erase the existence of her days in >lesbian relationships. OK, I can certainly grant you that. >People don't wake up in the morning and say "Gee, I think I'll >be hetero/homo/bisexual now." It's something about themselves >they discover as they mature, both physically and emotionally. >That's the "nature" part: the "nurture" is how/whether or not >they choose to act upon whatever signals their inner beings are >sending them. Yeah, I guess what we're gonna get down to here is semantics, in which case the discussion becomes boring. Over a period of time, stemming from childhood, let's say a person evolves from having virtually no homo-erotic thoughts (I won't say absolutely none because I don't believe that is possible) to enough h-e vibes that, given that they are presented with the right opportunity, etc. etc., leads them to a gay relationship or two. So now you say that clearly they are at least bisexual, since they've now had both gay and non-gay liaisons. Thus, they will always be "bisexual" because they have it in them -- potential -- to have both types of relationship. So even if they then follow an similar but opposite devolution, say, over time, back to hetero-only, their erotic-career, shall we say, classifies them as bi. If this is what you're saying, it's hard to argue. (I think you're something a little stronger than that.) >Okay, I can't point you to an article in a scientific journal >that backs me up on this, but my personal belief (from personal >experience) is that nature kicks nurture's ass when it comes to >the issue of an individual's sexual preference, whether that >person chooses to act upon it or not. My upbringing basically >taught me that I, and a great many of my friends are evil. Why >the hell would I consciously waltz down the (metaphorical) path >to Hell? I don't do evil, it's not something I'd ever be into. Hmmm. There are plenty of people who choose to tango to the underworld, for any number of valid or silly reasons, be they conscious or sub. Your upbringing (read parents?) may have inculcated you with such moral values, but you may have decided on your own that such behaviour was not *evil*, so taken from your p.o.v. you were not dancing with the devil. >"the music industry sucks wet farts out of dead pigeons." -brni >(one of the funniest phrases I've encountered in a long time :) Seconded! Had me rolling in my office furniture. -mjm ======================================================================== From: brianb@lobby.ti.com (Brian Bloom) Subject: Re: Happy & Don't Give Up Date: Wed, 5 May 93 10:05:36 CDT > > I had an amusing thought that I've already shared with Vickie; wouldn't > Happy do a great cover of "Don't Give Up," singing both parts? She has an > amazing range and some of the songs I've heard sound like duets. I > particularly like her high range where she sounds an awful lot like KaTe. > Can anyone tell me if this is something she has used more/less over time? ** Oh My God ** THATWOULDBESOCOOL!!!! Could we talk her into doing that? Maybe just for the Ecto group? Pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease... Sorry, but DGU is one of my *faves*.... br!an -- __ ____ __ ____ __ __ (__==__) /\ \ / \_\ / /\ / \ \ / |\ / /\ (oo) ( moo.) / \_\ / /\ |_| / / /| /\ \ \ / ||/ / / /-------\/ -' / /\ | |\ \/ /_/_ / / / \ \/ \ \ / |/ / / / | U.T.|| / \/ |_| \ __ \_\ /_/ / \ /\ \_\ / /| / / * ||----|| / /\ ./_/ \ \ \/_/_\_\/ \ \ \/_// / | / / ^^ ^^ \ \/ |_| \ \_\ /_/\ \ \_\ /_/ /|_/ / Br!an Bloom \__/_/ \/_/ \_\/ \/_/ \_\/ \_\/ brianb@lobby.ti.com .. but music hides me so well, ..and reveals me.. oh well - HR ======================================================================== Date: 05 May 93 12:14:17 EDT From: Mike Mendelson Subject: darwin >I really wish I could have met him in Chicago when I was there >last summer. I am curious to see what he is like in person; I >have rarely met anyone who does not seem more likable in person >than they do in e-mail. Well, my limited experience with him is relatively decent. The first time I met him, he had just started working for Roger Schank, which lit up some serious warning signs in my brain. But then, a couple of years later, he got into a fight with Schank/ members of his group, so he was no longer working for them. It was funny, but I felt like saying "I told you so!" Anyways, he has contributed quite a bit to the general gaffa thing: he engineered the original gaffa FAQ, and put together the most excellent love-hounds/KT fem symbol black caps (I snagged two and where them every week!) project. He does have some pretty wild personal beliefs and philosophies though. And of course he helped C&V move when they came here. So my personal experience, as I said, has been on the whole pretty good. Then again, I know some bad blood has gone on with him and some people outside of the electronic forum. Overall, I don't think he deserved quite the lambasting he took from gaffa, but I am also firm in believing that for the most part he had it coming. So goes the Darwinistic ocean called the Net. I'm sure he'll be back. -mjm ======================================================================== Date: 05 May 93 12:32:05 EDT From: Mike Mendelson Subject: PG dates >7/11 Minneapolis, MN tba (as are all the rest) Well, I know already that this one is wrong (sorry MN people), because he is playing a second show in Chicago on that date. -mjm ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 3 May 93 01:16 MET DST From: uli@zoodle.robin.de (Ulrich Grepel) Subject: Re: Warning: Klaus ahead Klaus wondered: > ... and Uli explained ... > > answering. And near enough for mankind to receive an answer within its > > (the mankind's) existance. > Within mankind's existance? You're an optimist! How many thousand years > would we have to wait for a reply? ??? If there were any aliens around Proxima Centauri that should be about 8 years, but of course that's just more than unlikely. If they were 200 lightyears away it should be about 400 years. You really can't know. Of course it might be the case that there's no intelligent life anywhere in the next 1 billion light years, but just again WE DON'T KNOW. > Tell me about it. I'm without my 1st4 for nearly a month now. But I > still have 3 of them still shrinkwrapped as a backup, so if the > situation gets really desperate I'll open them. :) Do you need a tape ;-) ? Bye, Uli ======================================================================== The ecto archives are on hardees.rutgers.edu in ~ftp/pub/hr. There is an INDEX file explaining what is where. Feel free to send me things you'd like to have added. -- jessica (jessica@ns1.rutgers.edu)