Errors-To: owner-ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu Reply-To: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu Sender: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu From: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu To: ecto-request@ns1.rutgers.edu Bcc: ecto-digest-outbound@ns1.rutgers.edu Subject: ecto #559 ecto, Number 559 Tuesday, 4 May 1993 Today's Topics: *-----------------* This Mortal Coil? Happy thread on Prodigy Some astoundingly meaningless statistics about Ecto I gathered! Ask the man who iz one lots of theory, little substance Re: ecto statistics Re: suzanne vega Re: New stats Happy on Prodigy The "Happy" Trip!! :) speaking of musicians who don't talk much... Re: New stats & Metroland cover Re: NY Radio... Champagne Jam, 5/2/93 ======================================================================== From: Tree of Schnopia Subject: This Mortal Coil? Date: Tue, 4 May 93 11:36:50 EDT Forwarded message: > From stevev@miser.uoregon.edu Tue May 4 03:31:50 1993 > Date: Tue, 4 May 93 00:19:19 PDT > From: stevev@miser.uoregon.edu (Steve VanDevender) > Message-Id: <9305040719.AA02117@miser.uoregon.edu> > To: Tree of Schnopia > Cc: as010b (Tree of Schnopia), ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu > In-Reply-To: <9305040447.AA24099@uhura.cc.rochester.edu> > Subject: This Mortal Coil? > > Tree of Schnopia writes: > > > Oh, and about the philosophy/science discussion: I think the main problem > > people (including me) have with AI is that they confuse Intelligence with > > Life. People rebel at the idea of an Intelligent machine, when what they > > really dislike is the idea of a Live machine. I, too, rebel at the idea of > > a Live machine, and I don't think it's something we can truly accomplish > > yet. An Intelligent machine is possible, but the intelligence would reach a > > point where it's no longer any closer to human intelligence than animal > > intelligence...it would be of a comparable level, but it wouldn't be of the > > same nature. > > I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "live" here. Of > course, I just noticed that you admit that you have a hard time > distinguishing between the notions of life and intelligence. Only when discussing AI...well, you read what I meant. I'm toying with the idea of the defining characteristic of life being desire...but don't flame me on it, it's merely speculation for my poetry and fiction. > I do agree that machine intelligence will be a much different > thing than human intelligence. If we just look at intelligence > as the ability to model and predict behavior in the outside > world, then I think that the ability to sense and manipulate > greatly affects the character of intelligence. A machine > intelligence will have very different senses and abilities than > organic life. I quite agree, and this is the problem I have with not only the Turing test but also many with whom I discuss AI. > > For reference, I'm an agnostic with a strong affinity for Nature worship. I > > like to think of everything as One to some degree, which is why I'm not > > overly fond of mathematical explanations: they quantify by their very > > nature, and to quantify is to separate and divide. > > Mathematics also has a tremendous ability to unify and simplify. > Mathematics does not just pick things apart, but also attempts to > find the simplest and most powerful ways of describing abstract > relationships. Mathematics is nothing more than reasoning with > precision about the abstract; it is a source of wonder that so > many things in mathematics correspond so well with aspects of > reality. Not really. Mathematics was conceived to describe reality, and it does so by quantification. And I'd submit that simple, powerful ways of describing these relationships are often simple mainly in relation to other mathematical formulae. But I'd really rather not discuss this either...it's also for my poetry and fiction, and not yet for any scientific meanderings. > > Do I sound anything like Jorn? :) > > No, to do that you have to stop making sense and start insulting > us if we disagree with you. Of course, by saying that I have > probably given him fuel for another rant about how we call him > nasty names in Ecto. You sure have, you *&!$^&* @##*&%^! You don't understand, the correct answer is "wankle rotary engine!" (big smiley) > I really wish I could have met him in Chicago when I was there > last summer. I am curious to see what he is like in person; I > have rarely met anyone who does not seem more likable in person > than they do in e-mail. I think most people with whom I've conversed on the net would consider me MUCH more likable in person than on e-mail. I HOPE, anyway... Drewcifer ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 04 May 93 10:46:39 CDT From: "Jeff "Chip" Lueck" Subject: Happy thread on Prodigy Hi all. For those of you who have been writing/reading Happy stuff on Prodigy, could you please tell me where on Prodigy it is? I'd be interested in reading it to see what others say. I might as well get my money's worth -- I only use Prodigy because my bank offers services on Prodigy and I can pay bills, etc. and that's all I use it for. (Well, I take that back -- I have used it to order airline tickets, but still....) Thanks! ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 May 93 09:34:06 PDT From: stevev@miser.uoregon.edu (Steve VanDevender) Subject: This Mortal Coil? Tree of Schnopia writes: > Not really. Mathematics was conceived to describe reality, and it does so > by quantification. And I'd submit that simple, powerful ways of describing > these relationships are often simple mainly in relation to other > mathematical formulae. But I'd really rather not discuss this either...it's > also for my poetry and fiction, and not yet for any scientific meanderings. Perhaps the earliest mathematical techniques were invented to model and describe certain aspects of reality, but it seems to me that many mathematicians are no longer particularly worried about whether their investigations have much correspondence to real-world phenomena. Such correspondences are usually found later, if at all. Perhaps it is simply that I have a strong mathematical background, but I find most mathematical statements to be fairly simple in meaning, even if they do depend on understanding many other things about mathematics. What concerns me about your statements is that your poetry and fiction will only reflect your feelings about mathematics, and you seem not to have any great interest or understanding of mathematics. I don't have time right now, but I could probably wax poetic about mathematics myself because to me a really interesting mathematical result is like a well-written poem. ======================================================================== From: "Michael Blackmore" Date: 4 May 93 11:31:24 EST Subject: Some astoundingly meaningless statistics about Ecto I gathered! Okay folks, Based on the Ecto Birthday List I've gathered some interesting and amazingly useless statistics about us that will amuse and bemuse people! Here goes: Average age of Ecto: 30 Median Age of Ecto: 29 % of Ecto older than Happy: 53% % of Ecto Happy's age: 4% % " younger than Happy: 43% % of Ecto older than Kate: 20% % of Ecto Kate's age: 5% % " younger than Kate: 75% % of Ecto older than Happy, but younger than Kate: 22% % of Ecto born on: Saturday 12% Sunday 13% Monday 16% Tuesday 18% Wednesday 14% Thursday 12% Friday 14% % of Ecto born in: January 10% February 5% March 10% April 11% May 7% June 9% July 13% August 4% September 5% October 7% November 12% December 7% On a non-stats note: why are we measuring of years according to the Jesus? Why not something more meaningful like say the birth of Kate! or the birth of Happy? By the Kate calendar I was born in the year 5 AD By the Happy calendar I was born in year 2 BC Isn't that much simpler? :-) - Michael B. ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 May 93 13:49:38 PDT From: "John M. Relph" Subject: Re: Some astoundingly meaningless statistics about Ecto I gathered! > By the Kate calendar I was born in the year 5 AD > By the Happy calendar I was born in year 2 BC Shouldn't that be 5 A.K. and 2 B.H. ? or we could just use KE and BKE (Kate Era). -- John ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 May 1993 15:02:41 CDT From: Subject: Ask the man who iz one Brni writes: >sociologists (i forget who; i loaned the book out years ago to someone >who is now in utah) have extended this analysis to practitioners of >the "hard" sciences, where personal preferences, political structures, >"fads" and etc all had subtle effects on what was considered "true" >at the time. this, they claim, is a necessary condition of being >human. As a sociologist, I would counsel against attributing this, or indeed any, conclusion to "sociologists" as an allegedly homogeneous group. The natural sciences have, of course, never been invulnerable to the influences of social exigencies in the way they look at the world--nor have they been at the mercy of those exigencies. The validity or invalidity of this particular sociologis- t's conclusions would be easier to evaluate were his identity available; but they remain just that--his conclusions, not automatically an indicator of the prevailing way of thinking in this very heterogeneous discipline as a whole. As for the more global question being engaged in this thread--whether object- ive reality has an existence independent of its perception--I speak from the perspective of a set of disciplines whose prevailing style is reasoning is probabilistic rather than deterministic. In other words, rather than a propo- sition being invalidated by any deviant case, as is typically the case in the natural sciences, a theory is considered valid if it explains the behavior of enough of the people enough of the time to allow generalization on a large scale, such generalizations not necessarily being mutually exclusive with others about the same social phenomenon. That said, the perspective I find the most sympatico is that the universe is knowable, that regularities can be observed empirically and sound generalizations formulated about them; but that given the fallibilities of human perception, these generalizations are likely to be imperfect, and subject to being outmoded by the products of better obser- vation in the future. Natural phenomena, in short, do have their own reality, which empirical science generally can, but is not necessarily guaranteed to, capture accurately. Meanwhile, back at the ranch... :-) So now Junior Mints have become the stuff that the latest ecto in-joke is made of. Wish I could remember Kramer's classic utterance on the stuff on that epi- sode of _Seinfeld_ in which they figured--something on the order of "They're chocolate, they're mint, they're delicious. Who wouldn't love a junior mint?" Peanut butter cups aren't half bad either, though they do stick to the roof of the mouth much more than the other stuff. 4AD's album of Mortal Coil covers certainly sounds enticing. Would be a pity if they only released it as a promo. WRT to Drewcifer on AI: I recommend Randall Collins' essay in his reader _Sociological Insight: A Guide to Non-Obvious Sociology_ (2nd edition, Oxford University Press, 1992), in which he concludes that a "live" artificial intel- ligence would have to be able to anticipate the feelings and reactions of oth- ers in order to qualify as "human"--essentially the same as the symbolic inter- actionist perspective on the development of the self. For the benefit of those who don't know: YKTR is Y Kant Tori Read, Tori Amos' nearly (and some would say rightfully) forgotten first album, in which she was shoehorned into the role of a manufactured rock star, singing stuff for the lo- west common denominator--interesting as a benchmark in her professional devel- opment, and little else. WRT Dennis' query on my joke inspired by Suzanne Vega's monolog: In view of the current issue of gay rights in the armed forces, it occured to me that the far right would be likely to chuckle over the question, "is the queen [as in effeminate gay man] dating the soldier?" The story taken from Paul Harvey's broadcast seems quite characteristic of him; some aspects of his long-running show, as well as his personal history, are amusing in themselves, though I won't go into them immediately. Good _day_! Mitch ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 May 93 20:09:53 MET From: brage@sphere.home.id.dth.dk (Jens P. Brage) Subject: lots of theory, little substance Hi, brni lost track: > i've lost track of who's saying what in this debate. sorry. Well, I basically agrees with all of your points (I was ">>" in your posting). But, just a few more comments: ;-) > in pomo talk, we say "the only truth is that there is no Truth," and ^^^^??? Que? > stuff that is currently going on chaos theory also indicates some > of this. Even more important, in 1931 Goedel demonstrated that the most basic mathematics (number theory) contains similar unknowns. By then it was pretty much accepted that physics were ultimately unknowable (due to quantum mechanics and relativity), but at least the pure mathematics were safe. Not so! ;-) > sociologists (i forget who; i loaned the book out years ago to someone > who is now in utah) have extended this analysis to practitioners of > the "hard" sciences, where personal preferences, political structures, > "fads" and etc all had subtle effects on what was considered "true" > at the time. this, they claim, is a necessary condition of being > human. Yes, this sounds reasonable, too. Not very nice, perhaps, as we would like to believe that (barring direct misunderstandings of Nature) our observations/models represents global and lasting truth; but very human... Jens P. Brage | No time gives us reasons for why it just goes by brage@sphere.home.id.dth.dk | And no man can stop the seasons /\ | But so many men will try \SphereSoft | - Jefferson Airplane, "Common Market Madrigal" ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 1 May 93 02:26 MET DST From: uli@zoodle.robin.de (Ulrich Grepel) Subject: Re: ecto statistics This is only part of the answer Vickie got from me, but I just have to do something for your education. > What's the German word for "smart ass"? :-) That's "Klugscheisser" > Uli becomes one: Why? 8-O And, Vickie, your very own Chris has posted once or twice from uchicago, and Evan has posted once here. Alaska is one of the extras I described. Bye, Uli ======================================================================== Date: Sun, 2 May 93 00:12 MET DST From: uli@zoodle.robin.de (Ulrich Grepel) Subject: Re: suzanne vega Yes, the stage talk of her wasn't that big too: not much more than saying two sentences about each song, and 'Thank You' after each song's applause, and a bit of band introduction (great musicians, BTW . Funny moment: after she introduced the band, one audience member shouted 'and you?', and Suzanne answered 'Me? Suzanne Vega!'. Bye, Uli ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 1 May 93 23:34 MET DST From: uli@zoodle.robin.de (Ulrich Grepel) Subject: Re: New stats Angelos: > If only I spent so much time writing my thesis. So for the sake of equal > opportunity I will as of today switch to the digest in an effort to reduce > my distraction. Got to have a chapter ready by Friday. Hmmm... please: nobody should make me responsible for an eventual decline in the frequency of Angelos' posts. And I should write more of the kind of text I'm supposed to write, too! Bye, Uli ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 May 1993 15:55:08 -0700 From: szimmerm@euclid.math.usfca.edu (Scott Zimmerman) Subject: Happy on Prodigy Jeff "Chip" Lueck wrote: > Hi all. For those of you who have been writing/reading Happy stuff > on Prodigy, could you please tell me where on Prodigy it is? Hi! Jump to the Music BB, and select the Modern Rock topic. There's a subject titled "Tori - Happy Rhodes" where she is discussed. Also, you'll find the occasional mention of her in the other Tori Amos subjects and the Kate Bush subjects. Go ahead and start a Happy Rhodes subject if ya want! Speaking of Prodigy, a guy on there who has a weekly radio show on one of the local college stations, KSMC--St. Mary's College, let me hang out in the studio Friday while he did his show. I brought him some Happy Rhodes to play, of course. We played "Runners"... Scott ======================================================================== From: lynnk68685@aol.com Subject: The "Happy" Trip!! :) Date: Tue, 04 May 93 19:26:03 EDT Hi Everyone! I'm relatively new to ECTO and I figure it's time to join in the conversation:) Hi, Bob, Pam and Meredith! Thanks to Bob, I just had the priviledge of spending last Saturday with Happy Rhodes, Kevin Bartlett and Susanne White! Yes, I'm the LUCKY girl who lives right outside of Detroit and was able to give Happy and crew a ride from Detroit to Ann Arbor, MI. On Fri. night, I went over to Street Corner Records, where Happy was doing an "in store" to promote her lp and it was there that I met them. Happy autographed all of my cd's and and I chatted with all of them for about an hour. The strangest thing happened while I was there....right behind where Happy was signing autographs, I spotted a copy of YKTR (I'm also a Tori fan) hanging on the wall!!! I had an original cassette, but was still looking for a vinyl and/or a cd copy, so I grabbed it ($30 wasn't too bad). Kevin and I started talking about the lp and he asked if I would make them a copy since they hadn't heard it yet. Of course, I was happy to comply:) The next morning I picked them up at their hotel and we were off to Ann Arbor to WAMX. Happy was prepared to do a few live songs, but told me if the station wasn't set up to accomodate their instruments that she would only do the interview (she knew I was dying to see her do ASHES). Unfortunately, the station was so small she could only do the interview.:( It was alot of fun watching the interview, though....she even said (off the air, of course) as we were joking around that she would just lip-synch for me:) She really has a great sense of humor! After the interview, we made a stop at School Kids Records on the U of M campus in Ann Arbor. We walked to a nearby restaurant (I recommended one of my faves, SEVA- a vegatarian restaurant). I think I'll stop here and finish with Part II tomorrow...my fingers are a bit tired! Feel free to ask questions. Til tomorrow.... Lynn ======================================================================== Subject: Re: This Mortal Coil? Date: Tue, 04 May 93 19:09:20 -0400 From: Michael Matthews Drewcifer writes: >Oh, and about the philosophy/science discussion: I think the main problem >people (including me) have with AI is that they confuse Intelligence with >Life. People rebel at the idea of an Intelligent machine, when what they >really dislike is the idea of a Live machine. I, too, rebel at the idea of >a Live machine, and I don't think it's something we can truly accomplish >yet. An Intelligent machine is possible, but the intelligence would reach a >point where it's no longer any closer to human intelligence than animal >intelligence...it would be of a comparable level, but it wouldn't be of the >same nature. It all depends on how you look at it, actually. When it comes down to it, human beings are a form of machine. We're carbon based. We've got *really* complex DNA "programs" in us. Our brain is a complex network of neurons and chemicals. In effect, we are live machines. Intelligent machines are certainly possible, but the question _really_ is how do you define intelligence, and where does ours come from? Is there some soul or spirit that we have, or can it all ultimately be explained at the physical level (mix chemical A with chemical B and you've got reaction X, etc.). I don't think today's technology can product computer hardware that's capable of intelligence, but that's OK because today's software technology isn't quite ready for it either. I'm a little confused by your statement that "...intelligence would reach a point where it's no longer any closer to human intelligence than animal intelligence." Do you mean it'll evolve into something Monty Python-ish (completely different)? >For reference, I'm an agnostic with a strong affinity for Nature worship. I >like to think of everything as One to some degree, which is why I'm not >overly fond of mathematical explanations: they quantify by their very >nature, and to quantify is to separate and divide. Well, you all can figure out that I believe any intelligent machine that does eventually come to being will run Unix. ]:-> >Do I sound anything like Jorn? :) I hope not, he'll probably think this post was anonymously done by Jeffy. >Drewcifer ------ Mike Matthews, matthews@ectds.com (NeXTmail accepted) ------ Drive defensively. Buy a tank. ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 May 93 19:39:30 EDT From: mojzes@monet.rutgers.edu (brni) Subject: speaking of musicians who don't talk much... i guess it was about 2 years ago now that i saw the cocteau twins live (same day that i cut my thumb open from one end to the other at work - stitch-o-rama). elizabeth frazer apparently has terrible stagefright, and according to my friend tory, nyc had not been very nice to them a couple of days earlier (ct's are tory's favorite band of all time). so when they started playing she wasn't even on the stage. she came on when it was time to sing, sang until her part was done, then retreated into an unlit part of the stage. next song she came out again and sang then ran away again. we philadelphia folks were very supportive tho, and by the end of the night, she was coming out to the mic after each song and saying "thank you" very very quietly. they even did 2 encores, but, since they only had one planned, and their music is essentially computer- driven, they didn't have any more tunes to play. so they passed the song list into the audience and had us pick two songs that they'd already done. ah well, this is what happens when a studio band tours. still, it was wonderful seeing them. brni ======================================================================== Subject: Re: New stats & Metroland cover Date: Tue, 04 May 93 20:38:16 EDT From: Angelos Kyrlidis Uli wrote: >Hmmm... please: nobody should make me responsible for an eventual decline >in the frequency of Angelos' posts. And I should write more of the kind of >text I'm supposed to write, too! :) Thanks, but I do tend to ramble on ecto... Anyway, enough of this. Is there anyone who has the Metroland cover story in the position to scan the cover for the archives? I got it in the mail on Saturday (have I already mentioned that I got it? senility, my friends :-)) and believe that the cover photo, being a Happy first, should be scanned and put in the archives. I am also sure that several ectophiles will drool over her necklace (quite an eery one to say the least). Ectofully yours, Angelos ___ |--------------(kyrlidis@athena.mit.edu)------------------------ / . \ T | 'Atmospherics after dark, noise and voices from the past \___/ A R | Across the dial from Moscow to Cologne __|_ B A | Interference in the night, thousand miles on either side / _|_\ U S | Stations fading into the unknown...' - Tom Robinson / \ L A |--------------------------------------------------------------- / A | 'My ears have parasites'-hApPy RhOdEs ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ======================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 May 1993 20:47:51 -0500 From: lan@panix.com (Larry Nathanson) Subject: Re: NY Radio... >From: der ubergoth >Subject: friday! sproing! >wbai is 99.5 and wkcr is 89.9.... >try listening to 89.1 wfdu, 90.7 wfuv and 91.1 wfmu. ... Argh! Nope, nope, nope, nope,and Hmmm. I got fmu, but it was playing classical at the time.. I'll have to try back later! >92.7 wdre sucks moose hooves far as i'm concerned. But it would still be a big step up! >From: "Not quite the third man--the third person, but the second man" >Subject: What hath I wrought now? :-) > >Kudos to Woj for saving me from making myself look like a naif, by suggesting >to Larry that he look the frequencies for WBAI et al. up in the newspaper. I'd need a newspaper first! I'm ashamed to admit how out of touch with the world I am! >As >for the inability to receive these stations once their frequencies have been >ascertained, may I risk making myself look like a naif anyhow, by suggesting >that the possibility of some kind of supplementary antenna be explored. Or >if you have a model of walkman with a "local/dx" switch, that too may be worth >fiddling with. The major problem is that I'm low down in a high building. The problem will solve itself next year, when I'm twice as high.. The people up there have fine reception. I can't just build a roof antenna- the school wouldn't approve of such things. I've got something sticking out a window, and they aren't too thrilled with that... I'll survive a few more months! But thanks for the help! --L ---- Larry Nathanson, SUNY HSCB COM '96 Med 1 -> Bottom of the Food Chain ======================================================================== Date: 04 May 1993 21:33:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Suspended In Duct Tape Subject: Champagne Jam, 5/2/93 Hi! Here's the latest playlist. I was only planning on an hour, since WESU Sports had scheduled a Wesleyan baseball broadcast at noon, but at the last minute I found out they had decided not to broadcast the game. Which is why I didn't have my Happy interview tape with me, and ended up playing two hours of music. The results: ============ CHAMPAGNE JAM 88.1FM, WESU-Middletown Wesleyan University, Middletown, CT Sunday, May 2, 1993 11AM-1PM 10,000 MANIACS: "Few And Far Between" (Our Time In Eden) ST. ETIENNE: "You're In A Bad Way" (So Tough) SUDDENLY, TAMMY!: "The Way Up" (Suddenly, Tammy!) LULABOX: "Love Street" (Lulabox) JULIANA HATFIELD: "Ugly" (I See You EP) * HIS NAME IS ALIVE: "Cornfield" (Mouth By Mouth) THE MOON SEVEN TIMES: "Paris Luna" (The Moon Seven Times) BELA FLECK AND THE FLECKTONES: "UFO TOFU" (UFO TOFU) RAINBIRDS: "Blueprint" (Rainbirds) ROBYN HITCHCOCK AND THE EGYPTIANS: "Driving Aloud (Radio Storm)" (Respect) THE JUDYBATS: "Scarlett" (Pain Makes You Beautiful) JANE SIBERRY: "Follow Me" (No Borders Here) THE CREATURES: "Standing There" (Boomerang) TASMIN ARCHER: "Somebody's Daughter" (Great Expectations) JOHN AND MARY: "One Step Backward" (The Weedkiller's Daughter) THE STORY: "And our faces, my heart, brief as photos" (Grace In Gravity) HAPPY RHODES: "I Say" (Equipoise) TORI AMOS: "Take To The Sky" (Winter CD5) GAME THEORY: "Rolling With the Moody Girls" (Two Steps from the Middle Ages) SUZANNE VEGA: "When Heroes Go Down" (99.9F) MARSHALL CRENSHAW: "Someday, Someway" (A Collection) KATE BUSH: "The Wedding List" (Never For Ever) INGRID KARKLINS: "Time/Incredible March of the Spiny Lobsters" (A Darker Passion) INGRID KARKLINS: "Big One/Little One" (A Darker Passion) INGRID KARKLINS: "Hiro/Smitten" (A Darker Passion) THROWING MUSES: "Hate My Way" (Throwing Muses EP) ROBERT FRIPP AND THE LEAGUE OF CRAFTY GUITARISTS: "Bicycling to Afghanistan" (Show of Hands) LAURIE FREELOVE: "Smells Like Truth" (Smells Like Truth) MIRANDA SEX GARDEN: "Willie Biddle and his Waltzing Maggot" (Suspiria) KATE BUSH: "Delius (Song of Summer)" (Never For Ever) * The Deli Queen strikes again... but this time, no free food. :( Meredith Tarr meth@delphi.com ======================================================================== The ecto archives are on hardees.rutgers.edu in ~ftp/pub/hr. There is an INDEX file explaining what is where. Feel free to send me things you'd like to have added. -- jessica (jessica@ns1.rutgers.edu)