Errors-To: owner-ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu Reply-To: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu Sender: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu From: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu To: ecto-request@ns1.rutgers.edu Bcc: ecto-digest-outbound@ns1.rutgers.edu Subject: ecto #494 ecto, Number 494 Thursday, 18 March 1993 Today's Topics: *-----------------* Today's your birthday friend.... Feeding the fire of pretension, or: Here's what the theorist says Re: Feeding the fire of pretension, or: Here's what the th Re: I'll beg ya'all forgiveness in advance! ;-) Re: Whatever Happened to Lene Lovich Kate Bush = Poet? the gyrate pretender A few things... Warning: NON ecto-content follows happy b-day klaus!! ======================================================================== Subject: Today's your birthday friend.... From: klaus@inphobos.w.open.de (Cosmic Vagabond) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 06:42:22 GMT i*i*i*i*i*i *************** ***HAPPY******* ********BIRTHDAY*** ******************* ***** Alan Sodoma ***** *********************** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Alan Sodoma Thu March 18 1965 LuckyLurker Barry Wong Thu March 19 1970 Merlin Graham Dombkins Fri March 19 1965 Pisces * Geoff Carre Sat March 20 1954 Pisces Bob Brown Thu March 22 1951 Ham John Baker Tue March 24 1964 Berkeley Valerie Nozick Thu March 25 1971 Aries Marc Power Sun March 30 1958 The Project Warpaint Mon April 1 1991 Brilliant! Klaus Kluge Sun April 10 1960 Unicorn Steve VanDevender Sun April 10 1966 Racer Art Liestman Fri April 10 1953 Repeat Stephen Golden Sat April 10 1971 Jokey -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _____ Klaus Kluge * klaus@inphobos.w.open.de * I'll be here, I'll be (in) Ecto! ======================================================================== Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 12:46:07 CST From: "1 Mitch mitching (& a partridge in a pear tree?)" Subject: Feeding the fire of pretension, or: Here's what the theorist says WRT the colloquy in these pages between Drewcifer and others on pretentiousness in lyrics, and whether writing other than from knowledge and experience is pre- tentious: "The cumulative point of this variety of intellectual and institutional cases is not...a proposal to replace the extreme Insider doctrine by an extreme and equally vulnerable Outsider doctrine. The intent is, rather, to transform the original question altogether. We no longer ask whether it is the Insider or the Outsider who has monopolistic or privileged access to social truth; in- stead, we begin to consider their distinctive and interactive roles in the process of truth seeking." --Robert K. Merton, "Insiders and Outsiders: A Chapter in the Sociology of Knowledge." _American Journal of Sociology_, V. 78, n. 1, July 1972, pp. 9-47, at p. 36 ======================================================================== From: "Michael Blackmore" Date: 18 Mar 93 14:23:06 EST Subject: Re: Feeding the fire of pretension, or: Here's what the th > We no longer ask whether it is the Insider or the Outsider who has > monopolistic or privileged access to social truth; instead, we begin > to consider their distinctive and interactive roles in the process > of truth seeking." - Merton 8-) Mitch! What a perfect and incredibly appropriate quote! Good quoting dude! *************************MICHAEL BLACKMORE************************** "You seem to be deluding yourself that this is a school with a bureaucracy, when actually it's a bureaucracy with a school." - Michael B (michaelb@ksgrsch.harvard.edu) ***************A TRADITIONAL OF EXCELLENCE SINCE 1963*************** ======================================================================== From: "Michael Blackmore" Date: 18 Mar 93 14:25:43 EST Subject: Re: I'll beg ya'all forgiveness in advance! ;-) Greg says: > i guess it's just a good year for puns... but let me not stretch my > point; i will depart with a last *ick* Well, Greg all I can say is "Let the punishment fit the crime!" ;-) *************************MICHAEL BLACKMORE************************** "You seem to be deluding yourself that this is a school with a bureaucracy, when actually it's a bureaucracy with a school." - Michael B (michaelb@ksgrsch.harvard.edu) ***************A TRADITIONAL OF EXCELLENCE SINCE 1963*************** ======================================================================== From: jmg@rocket.com (Jim Gurley) Subject: Re: Whatever Happened to Lene Lovich Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 10:22:59 PST Like Neile I'm suffering from early senility... but a couple ectos ago, maybe 490, someone posted a question regarding said Lovich: well, after her semi-hit, Blue Hotel, in I think 1983 or 1984, she seemed to disappear. Perhaps she was to weird for the scene back then...imagine if Diamanda Gallas had come out then... anyways, she didn't put out anything until around 1989 or 1990. No record company would touch her. She did do a duet with Nina Hagan, which I think is pretty appropriate considering their musical similarities. As for the name of her last album, ????, maybe someone else might know. I keep seeing it in used CD stores, but never have plunked down the $$ for it. One of the first videos I ever saw (aside from real early DEVO) was one she did for Lucky Number. That album, STATELESS, is still my favorite of her stuff. I believe there are some of her songs on the newly released compilation of artists of recorded on STIFF Records in England during the early new wave phase in the late 70s. Was that really almost fifteen years ago?? God I feel old. ======================================================================== From: "Michael Blackmore" Date: 18 Mar 93 14:57:06 EST Subject: Re: Whatever Happened to Lene Lovich Jim says: > She did do a duet with Nina Hagan, which I think is pretty > appropriate considering their musical similarities. What I also thought was cool was that on Nina did a German version of Lene's song Lucky Number that was released about the same time, and sounds wonderfully different (I love them both, but they are quite different!). Lene did some vocal work on Nina's album Ektasy a few years back. It wasn't one of Nina's better albums :-( *************************MICHAEL BLACKMORE************************** "I'm looking for a corner to drag my heart into" - Rosanne Cash LOOKING FOR A CORNER Michael B (michaelb@ksgrsch.harvard.edu) ***************A TRADITIONAL OF EXCELLENCE SINCE 1963*************** ======================================================================== From: Tree of Schnopia Subject: Re: Feeding the fire of pretension, or: Her Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 15:33:27 EST Forwarded message: > From MICHAELB@ksgrsch.harvard.edu Thu Mar 18 14:42:18 1993 > Message-Id: > To: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu > From: "Michael Blackmore" > Date: 18 Mar 93 14:23:06 EST > Subject: Re: Feeding the fire of pretension, or: Here's what the th > X-Pmrqc: 1 > Priority: normal > X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R5). > > > We no longer ask whether it is the Insider or the Outsider who has > > monopolistic or privileged access to social truth; instead, we begin > > to consider their distinctive and interactive roles in the process > > of truth seeking." - Merton > > 8-) Mitch! What a perfect and incredibly appropriate quote! Good > quoting dude! A rare occurrence is about to...er, occur. Watch closely as Drewcifer admits ignorance. Silly me. I is a dumb little English/Cog Sci major with nary a brain in sight. I'd be much obliged if someone would clarify the role of this quote in resolving our dispute. Translation: huh??? Indulge this stupid sheep. Paraphrase. Drewcifer ======================================================================== From: Tree of Schnopia Subject: Kate Bush = Poet? Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 15:35:02 EST Forwarded message: > Message-Id: <9303180551.AA23818@uhura.cc.rochester.edu> > Subject: lighters... camera.... hairspray... fwooom! > To: as010b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Scorpii) > Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 0:51:47 EST > Cc: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] > > Forwarded message: > > From depeche@binkley.cs.mcgill.ca Thu Mar 18 00:24:49 1993 > > Message-Id: <9303180501.AA28706@binkley.cs.mcgill.ca> > > From: depeche@binkley.cs.mcgill.ca (S. A. Ezust) > > Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 00:01:40 EST > > X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (6.5.6 6/30/89) > > To: ecto@ns1.rutgers.edu > > Subject: lighters... camera.... hairspray... fwooom! > > > and even pompous". I must admit that the word "pretentious", when I use > > it, can encompass any or all of those meanings, depending on who I am > > talking about. > > I pull out my dictionary only when arguing with someone. Informally, I > subscribe to the Humpty Dumpty school of definition, where words mean what I > want them to mean. There's glory for you! > > > However, it is only recently that I tried reading Kate Bush lyrics as > > poetry, and it's not easy.. Kate Bush lyrics do not scan - they have no > > rhyme or meter, and it's obvious by the way she stretches one syllable > > over 5 notes. Yes it works with her music, but I would call it prose more > > than poetry, myself. Pick any song from The Kick Inside and you'll see > > what I mean. Kate is a musical genius, yes. An awesome storyteller, of > > course, but a good poet, NOT!! > > Oh. My. Tree. > > I don't know where you learned about poetry (for all I know you have a Ph.D > in literature) but even my high school English classes knew that poetry NEED > NOT rhyme, scan, or even make sense to be "good poetry." I think it's also > important to realize that "regular" poetry and musical poetry are usually > not judged by the same standards. Lyrics are judged in relation to music, > not in a vacuum. Kate is one of a select few lyrical geniuses, a category > in which I would place IG only under duress. TKI might not be her best work > lyrically, but it WAS her first album, and written at a VERY young age. > > > And furthermore, what do you call a song which says "we're waking up - > > yes it's good.." Here is a song where Happy is making a statement about an > > entire global population's politicial views, and summing it up by saying > > "it's good." If that's not pretentious, I dunno what is... > > When I first got Warpaint, I would skip "Waking Up" more often than not. I > DO think that song was just a bit undercooked myself. > > > > > | > make me any more nauseous than Kate Bush singing about nuclear > > | > war or dead soldiers. > > > > What's wrong with Kate singing about dead soldiers? Army Dreamers is one > > of my fave songs by her ever!! > > Mine, too! > > Drewniverse the Humble > ======================================================================== Date: 18 Mar 93 15:52:08 EST From: Mike Mendelson Subject: the gyrate pretender +> +> | > make me any more nauseous than Kate Bush singing about nuclear +> | > war or dead soldiers. +> +> What's wrong with Kate singing about dead soldiers? Army Dreamers is one +> of my fave songs by her ever!! + +Mine, too! Which is exactly my point: total absence of nausea. -mjm ======================================================================== Date: 18 Mar 1993 17:19:08 -0500 (EST) From: SANDOVAL@stsci.edu Subject: A few things... First of all, I think it was Martin who said that he had sampled some of Happy's music for his Mac. Any chance of getting music samples in an IBM format, say .WAV, .VOC or .MOD? It could really spice up Windows! :) Second, relating to the pretentous discussion, Drewcifer, NEVER feel ashamed of admitting ignorance. I'd much rather find the answer than believe that I KNOW it. :) I have A LOT of respect for people who freely admit their limitations. :) John Looking for a .sig... ======================================================================== Subject: Re: Whatever Happened to Lene Lovich Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 17:30:58 EST From: Angelos Kyrlidis The title of this thread reminded me of my USENET debut post, pre-gaffa, and pre-ecto, the header of which I will share with you: >From: kyrlidis@athena.mit.edu (Agathagelos Kyrlidis) >Subject: Whatever happened to Lene Lovich? >Date: Sat, 10 Feb 90 21:11:36 GMT Ahhh, the days of Net-naivete'... Soooooo, did someone say Lene Lovich? ;-) Jim did, and wrote: > Perhaps she was to weird for the scene >back then...imagine if Diamanda Gallas had come out then... >anyways, she didn't put out anything until around 1989 or 1990. >No record company would touch her. Lene Lovich weird? Ah, come on. :-) And Diamanda Galas was out then (mid-80's) if I remember correctly. Well, Lene's recent work includes the album 'March' which came out in 1989, and IMHO is excellent. As good, if not better than 'No Man's Land'. I strongly recommend it, if you like any of her stuff. She then did some really horrid stuff with Nina Hagen (a duet called 'Don't kill the animals' for the 'Tame Yourself' PETA album) and a cool variation of the song 'Rage' with Erasure for the same PETA album. She then did vocals for Peter Hammill's Rock Opera 'The fall of the house of Usher' (which I have, but haven't *really* listened to and which BTW I saw the other day for the first time in the states filed under Lene's name at HMV in Cambridge!! ). If anybody knows of anything else she has done more recently, please let me know! >Was that really almost fifteen years ago?? God I feel old. Eeeeeep! It was... Explains some of my gray hair. The rest is most definitely PhD related... ;-) Then Michael B. writes: >What I also thought was cool was that on Nina did a German version of >Lene's song Lucky Number that was released about the same time, and >sounds wonderfully different (I love them both, but they are quite >different!). Lene did some vocal work on Nina's album Ektasy a few >years back. It wasn't one of Nina's better albums :-( Woooah! (exclamation) I didn't know of these!!! Are they in the discography? The only Nina/Lene connection besides the PETA songs I was aware of, is actually a collaboration with Herman Brood where they all sing together from a movie they did in the early '80s called 'Cha Cha'. I wonder if the movie is available on video, as I only have the soundtrack, and the pictures from it look at least hilarious... Angelos ======================================================================== From: depeche@binkley.cs.mcgill.ca (S. A. Ezust) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 20:06:09 EST Subject: Warning: NON ecto-content follows Some completely non-ecto, and even non-music related material follows - skip now if you don't like Mitch's posts :-) I was just reading in the Economist that the president of Zambia, Fredrick Chiluba, declared a state of emergency and ordered the arrest of at least ten people accused of plotting a coup. Two were sons of ex-president Kennith Kuanda... For those of you who know not much about Zambia, when I started living in Zimbabwe, we all made fun of how worse off Zambia was than Zimbabwe - there, you could sell your Zim dollars for Zambian Quatchas (?) at a killing, assuming, of course, that you could buy something useful with a Zambian Quatcha... (and this was amazing, since Zim dollars are worthless anywhere outside of Zimbabwe, typically.. But it's all relative, since South African Rands are worth lots in Zimbabwe, but virtually nothing anywhere outside of South Africa - it's the running joke that South Africans told about us stupid people in Zimbabwe, who actually BUY Rand on the black market!!!). But Zambia had its first democratic election in November 1991, so Chiluba took the throne, Kuanda stepped down honourably, and a 28 year state of emergency was called off. 28 years? That's right... The people born after 1963 in Zambia had never known anything but a state of emergency. What did it accomplish? Well basically it gave dictatorial powers to the president, so he could protect "national security" - or in other words, his own seat as president. This meant suspending habeas corpus for any convenient occasion, search and siezure of anything, etc etc. So after Chiluba took over, Zambia started getting good international reviews, and things became stable. The draught didn't hit Zambia as badly as it hit Zimbabwe, and the politicial situation started looking dismal in Zimbabwe, so we (in Zim) all started looking north towards Zambia as the next hope for the future (or the next interesting place to live / work)... But once again, the status quo is restored, and the current president has become a dictator. Sigh. In other news, my ex-next-door neighbour just got a cat which FETCHES balls and BRINGS them back to you... Just like a dog... Have any of you ever encountered such a cat in your lifetime? I sure haven't... And I am recovering from a 45 minute session of digging my car out, and pushing it out of the ice, before the snow removal people tow it away. That was fun. I am sipping hot chocolate and warming my feet now. -- | Alan Ezust depeche@binkley.cs.mcgill.ca Montreal, Quebec, Canada | |------------- McGill University School of Computer Science ----------------| Chew your gum and close your eyes and nothing can annoy you. - E.Ka-Spel ======================================================================== From: depeche@binkley.cs.mcgill.ca (S. A. Ezust) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 20:12:04 EST Subject: happy b-day klaus!! I forgot the exact date, but in case I miss it..... HAPPY BIRTHDAY, to the WUPPERTAL ECTO-CLUBHOUSE OWNER, Klaus!!!! I know it's sometime around now..... PS: How many Alans are on this list now? There's an AlanS, AlanM, and myself. Any others? And what's a pain is we all spell the name the same. In Quebec, there are 4 ways to spell it (Alan [the original], Alain, Allan, and Allen), so it saves a little confusion.. Oh well. -AlanE -- | Alan Ezust depeche@binkley.cs.mcgill.ca Montreal, Quebec, Canada | |------------- McGill University School of Computer Science ----------------| Chew your gum and close your eyes and nothing can annoy you. - E.Ka-Spel ======================================================================== The ecto archives are on hardees.rutgers.edu in ~ftp/pub/hr. There is an INDEX file explaining what is where. Feel free to send me things you'd like to have added. -- jessica (jessica@ns1.rutgers.edu)